Mooney 2POB missing west of Coffs Harbour [Archive]

logansi

20th Sep 2019, 07:28

A plane is missing after it faded off the radar west of Coffs Harbour on the NSW north coast.

Its understood the light plane was bound for Taree.

Police say they were advised the aircraft was missing about 11.45am on Friday. Its last known communications were about 7.30am.

"It's unknown how many people were on board," a NSW Police spokeswoman told AAP.

https://7news.com.au/travel/air-aviation/search-underway-after-plane-goes-off-radar-near-nsw-coast-c-464046?fbclid=IwAR3jfZTvZt3FgJGowK_beLTzqbHNB0O4P6C8VbEp1Y5H jIe9X8ErV6HLflg

SSR aircraft is looking in this area west of Coffs Harbour
https://i.imgur.com/78tGtdl.png

Looking at FR24, it looks like VH-DJU dropped of FR24 at this location around 0933 UTC

https://i.imgur.com/lkjdNEJ.png

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-dju#222accba

Edit: Aircraft was last recorded at 3,200 feet and descending, their is terrain at 3,400 feet around the area of last known.....

Magnetomick

20th Sep 2019, 07:50

FR24 data showing VH DJU at 200 feet below terrain possible CFIT 600m SW if Mt Moombil, fingers crossed. MM.

Pushin_Tin

21st Sep 2019, 00:35

Crash site of the Mooney located... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-21/crash-site-missing-plane-located-northern-nsw/11535440

BigPapi

21st Sep 2019, 03:20

Looking at some discussion on Facebook on this, and the conversation pretty quickly went to how "difficult" ATC makes it to get clearance through C and D at Coffs, "forcing" pilots over tiger country.

iron_jayeh

21st Sep 2019, 03:31

Desert Flower

21st Sep 2019, 06:05

Police have recovered two bodies (believed to be father & son) from the crash site.

DF.

The name is Porter

21st Sep 2019, 06:08

Sunfish

21st Sep 2019, 07:11

Now you know why I called the East Coast the dead zone.

gerry111

21st Sep 2019, 08:05

Now you know why I called the East Coast the dead zone.
Meanwhile in the audience, at least one rolled his eyes and groaned.

Dick Smith

21st Sep 2019, 08:10

I wonder if this is Bindooks “ giant roadblock airspace”
again.
Was the pilot attempting to keep out of the C airspace?

Most pilots would prefer to fly coastal if the road block was not there!

I have met pilots who don’t have the confidence to request and comply with a clearance through C!

wishiwasupthere

21st Sep 2019, 08:15

Oh FFS, 2 people have died only 24 hours ago and already the usual suspects have hijacked another thread to drive their own agenda.

Dick Smith

21st Sep 2019, 08:21

Come On. Aren’t we supposed to learn from such accidents?

Airservices have a ministerial directive to provide a terminal radar service in C over D. They ignore it at their peril.

mcoates

21st Sep 2019, 08:22

I have been through Coffs Harbour control area at least 100 times, never had anything but polite and courteous controllers happy to do anything they could.

Probably 10 of these transits were in a 50 knot 2 stroke ultralight aircraft.....

Just tell them what you are flying, where you are, what you want to do and where you are going. They will lead you step-by-step through the entire transit knowing that it is much safer for you to pass on by them to go inland. Many other times I transited in much faster aircraft but with the same hospitality expressed including a couple of times strong recommendations from the tower do not continue, land and have a coffee for a few hours break and wait for the weather to clear.

I adamantly say that their local knowledge and advice saved my life once when I wanted to push on thinking I knew better and they told me you will only get a few minutes past the airport and made a wall of water and they were right. You cannot beat local knowledge (and a weather radar before we had them on iPads).

I am happy to tell anyone this, no matter how little experience you have, there is nothing wrong or to be scared of contacting these guys, they are more than happy to help you at any time.

Aussie Bob

21st Sep 2019, 08:32

I have been through Coffs Harbour control area at least 100 times, never had anything but polite and courteous controllers happy to do anything they could.

Me too! I have also stepped down under the steps and skirted the edge just because I could. Easy peasy.

Dick Smith

21st Sep 2019, 08:41

mcoats. Did you put in a VFR plan first?

Did you ask for a clearance above 5000’?

wishiwasupthere

21st Sep 2019, 09:04

Aren’t we supposed to learn from such accidents?

Learn? Learn what?? At this stage, the only thing that is known is that a plane has crashed but you're on here crapping on about your ATC crusade.

Rated De

21st Sep 2019, 09:30

There but for luck, His grace or any number of reasons, most of us were fortunate.

Right now all that is actually known is that a family has likely lost both a father and a son.

KRUSTY 34

21st Sep 2019, 09:49

Class E over the top will fix that quick smart.

Assuming you can remain VMC over the top.

Sadly not the first aircraft lost in that area in less than ideal conditions.

mcoates

21st Sep 2019, 09:50

mcoats. Did you put in a VFR plan first?

Did you ask for a clearance above 5000’?

Back in the ultralight days there was no flight plans, just hook it along at 1,000 coastal then go inland around the steps with a few hundred feet clearance on the hills. When the cloud was too low or the banana crops were high then it was impossible and you would have to either ask permission or turn back, but you could make this decision pretty easily flying at 50 kn, usually with a 20 kn headwind so you have plenty of time to evaluate what you were doing and plenty of time to prepare to key the old ICOM handheld and request clearance.

Fast track to more modern times and you just contact Brisbane Centre 50 miles north or south and request a clearance at your desired altitude and yjey turn you onto the tower when you get closer. Really easy and everyone is accommodating.

I have never really tried flying over at higher than 5000 because usually there is cloud on the coast and you fly coastal for the view....

Fantastic trip from Wollongong through Victor one, up through Coffs and to the Gold Coast. In my opinion when the weather is great it is one of the best trips you can do.

LeadSled

21st Sep 2019, 09:51

Oh FFS, 2 people have died only 24 hours ago and already the usual suspects have hijacked another thread to drive their own agenda.
Wishi,
Much as it may displease you, I would suggest that, on the basis of probabilities, "Clearance not available, remain clear of controlled airspace" whether actual or perceived, was a contributing factor.
Who in their right mind would head out over the tiger country, when they could fly down the coast.
Let us hope there is a fair dinkum investigation.
Tootle pip!!

PS: And, by the way, Australian airspace arrangements are every bit as bad as Dick and just about anybody else with experience outside Australia will tell you. I feel sorry for the poor sods working for ASA, most of then know they could easily provide a better service, but they are bound by "the rools".

iron_jayeh

21st Sep 2019, 10:30

Don't assume

pbwhi0

21st Sep 2019, 10:47

Thanks LeadSled for a balanced and de-personalized response.

sunnySA

21st Sep 2019, 12:39

Airservices have a ministerial directive to provide a terminal radar service in C over D. They ignore it at their peril.
Whilst not disagreeing that the provision of a terminal radar service at such locations such as Coffs Harbour, in C over D, who would pay for this service? User pays, I can't imagine that airlines operating to/from Coffs Harbour (Q-Link, Virgin?) would want to pay for it. I think they'd prefer a TWR service at Ballina and perhaps at few other places.

Introduce E over D and then the C over D argument evaporates.

Always, tragic accident none the less. RIP.

Sunfish

21st Sep 2019, 12:44

Talking to one pilots widow, you can stick the ATSB up your backside, likewise CASA and AsA, given what she went through. If any of you deviates have flown into LAX even as a passenger, you will have seen a traffic density of airliners, military, business and GA aircraft happily sharing the same sky that AsA and RAAF won’t allow in Australia. I think it’s basically (a defamatory allegation removed), not by the controllers, but the fat and lazy managers.

Why the @3$# isn’t there a ten mile wide coastal VFR corridor, over suitable land and reasonable altitude, not tiger country, the full length of the east coast? You can stick Victor 1, “500ft and life Jackets” up your backside while you are at it.

It appears to me that airlines, CASA, RAAF and AsA regard small aircraft as “air pollution “.

junior.VH-LFA

22nd Sep 2019, 01:23

mcoats. Did you put in a VFR plan first?

Did you ask for a clearance above 5000’?

Yes because with OzRyunways/Avplan/NAIPS/THE ENTIRE INTERNET, it is so damn hard to put in a flight plan.

Really, I'm genuinely curious, short of just wanting your own way, what is your justification for wanting to be able to enter CTA without doing the smallest bit of preparation and a bit of courtesy to the guys in the tower?

Aussie Bob

22nd Sep 2019, 01:47

Really, I'm genuinely curious, short of just wanting your own way, what is your justification for wanting to be able to enter CTA without doing the smallest bit of preparation and a bit of courtesy to the guys in the tower?

Once again Junior you are using your own skills as a benchmark for judging others. Try a stint as a flight instructor and you will realise that quite a few lack your capability. In any event, a filed flight plan is not a requirement for VFR and I can't find courtesy to ASA staff mentioned in the AIP. In any event, the guys I have questioned in the local tower are ambivalent about filed flight plans from VFR pilots.

iron_jayeh

22nd Sep 2019, 03:08

Irrelevant

Alchemy101

22nd Sep 2019, 04:41

I have been through Coffs Harbour control area at least 100 times, never had anything but polite and courteous controllers happy to do anything they could.

I've not transited nearly that many times, but have not always been able to do what I wanted without a wait (once ~15 minutes), even with the plan filed. Which is OK, but would be tempting for some to route around

gchriste

22nd Sep 2019, 05:58

Once again Junior you are using your own skills as a benchmark for judging others. Try a stint as a flight instructor and you will realise that quite a few lack your capability. In any event, a filed flight plan is not a requirement for VFR and I can't find courtesy to ASA staff mentioned in the AIP. In any event, the guys I have questioned in the local tower are ambivalent about filed flight plans from VFR pilots.

surely part of the problem then. Where I fly every PPL student flight has a flight plan filed. Teach it properly during the training.

flywatcher

22nd Sep 2019, 07:46

LeadSled

22nd Sep 2019, 08:28

Thanks LeadSled for a balanced and de-personalized response.
pbwhi0,
Occam's Razor!!
Interestingly, I am not clairvoyant, just stating the obvious.
Already, quite apart from my comment about probabilities, there is a very strong rumor about that a clearance through C airspace was requested and denied, with an instruction to call the tower..
That will all be recorded.
Even if there was a hellishly badly timed, say, mechanical, problem, they would have been better off over low ground/water.
Tootle pip!!

The name is Porter

22nd Sep 2019, 09:09

kaz3g

22nd Sep 2019, 10:08

Flight Radar showed a direct route all the way to the crash and a GS of 165 knots while descending below mountain tops immediately prior.

Sunfish

22nd Sep 2019, 11:38

VH-LFA; Really, I'm genuinely curious, short of just wanting your own way, what is your justification for wanting to be able to enter CTA without doing the smallest bit of preparation and a bit of courtesy to the guys in the tower?

Its our country. Unless the Aborigines invented “controlled airspace” there is nothing sacred about it. Just change it. ...Or do we believe that RAAF Group Captain Blair Ponsonby Smythe and Sir Humphrey Appleby actually own the airspace and can tell us peasants what to do?

As Dick has, I think, pointed out, how many ordinary unprivileged pilots and their passengers have to die just to satisfy the RAAF ask for many hundreds of square miles of airspace to play in and the absurd liability fantasies of CASA and AsA?

How many dead this month due to rotten controlled airspace real estate rules? One mooney and one Iroquois? Six or seven people?’

And another thing...,,CASA and their lapdog, the ATSB, sunk the slipper into Angel Flight for far less reason. Where is the special report into East Coast transit airspace and procedures that force small aircraft into flying over water or mountains instead of along the coast with at least the possibility of a safe forced landing? More people have been killed by the current East Coast airspace rules than Angel Flight ever did.

Rant mode off.

extralite

22nd Sep 2019, 14:24

Tragic and hard. But on the other points raised i think rather than always pass blame we sometimes need to be accountable for our decisons without blaming someone else.. Ive been flying for 30 years and in regards to flight plans..I am not gadget savvy at all. But with avplan and ozrunways it is far simpler than it has ever been to lodge a flight plan. It literally takes minutes. ATC has almost always been incredible helpful whenever they see a potential risk. I do agree with the raaf taking up way to much airspace when only a pocket is used..and I'm.ex raaf..It's ridiculous to activate a whole block of airspace for one returning c130.

Really sad accident. Could have been a simple mistake in reading lsalt or something.

LeadSled

22nd Sep 2019, 16:02

ATC's in this country are working under ridiculous liability constraints. Although covered by Vicarious Liability they are stringently trained on just what 'advice' they can and cannot give. If they can't give a clearance, they can't.

E over D. That's where your corridor is Sunny. Does it work at Avalon? From a VFR pilot's perspective it does, does it work for a Jetstar pilot? Does it work from a controlling point of view? Cultural change is the biggest issue with E over D.

Porter,
Well said, but!!

Where the change is most needed is in the mindset of one union, AFAP, who have opposed most every change or advance in the many years I have been around the business, not limited to airspace management.

Right now they are opposing limited amendments to the Civil Aviation Act 1988**, opposing legitimising at least partially, cost/benefit justification, and trying to bring some cost accountability to CASA and aviation regulation.

AIPA members happily fly in E airspace ( and the rest of the alphabet) every day, in areas where there are serious traffic numbers, not the occasional aircraft encountered most places in Australia.

Tootle pip!!

** Similar but far more extensive amendments were recommended in 1999 --- nobody could accuse CASA and Transport of rushing things.

Lead Balloon

22nd Sep 2019, 21:01

Here’s the kind of attitude you’re up against: https://www.atsb.gov.au/repcon/2018/ar201800058/

The reporter’s comments:Overall, Class E airspace is quite a pointless concept but never so ridiculously applied as overhead a major destination between Class D and C airspace.

If only the FAA and air travellers in the USA had the benefit of the reporter’s insights.

iron_jayeh

22nd Sep 2019, 21:43

If only the FAA and air travellers in the USA had the benefit of the reporter’s insights.
i don't know the answer too the but does the US have echo below the start height of their instrument approaches?

Sunfish

22nd Sep 2019, 21:52

ATC's in this country are working under ridiculous liability constraints. Although covered by Vicarious Liability they are stringently trained on just what 'advice' they can and cannot give. If they can't give a clearance, they can't.

E over D. That's where your corridor is Sunny. Does it work at Avalon? From a VFR pilot's perspective it does, does it work for a Jetstar pilot? Does it work from a controlling point of view? Cultural change is the biggest issue with E over D.

Worked fine when I’ve used it. Unfortunately the RAA can’t use it without a full PPL, I think.

Regarding my “air pollution” comment, I have only evidence of this in maritime situations - a number of ships pilots used to go berserk when confronted with a small vessel using shipping channels. One ranted on VHF about this, called them “pollution” (I heard it) was recorded, and eventually dismissed. I have a suspicion that there are professional pilots who deeply resent having to share airspace and that they have a disproportionate voice in airspace planning, but I have no direct evidence.

andrewr

22nd Sep 2019, 22:28

Here’s the kind of attitude you’re up against: https://www.atsb.gov.au/repcon/2018/ar201800058/

Class E in Australia has been designed (deliberately I assume) to have very little benefit to anyone.

andrewr

22nd Sep 2019, 22:34

i don't know the answer too the but does the US have echo below the start height of their instrument approaches?

My understanding is that most of the USA has class E down to either 1200' or 800' AGL. The idea is to provide ATC separation services to IFR aircraft, including during an instrument approach. If IFR separation is not required i.e. VMC, the aircraft can cancel IFR and proceed VFR.

Squawk7700

22nd Sep 2019, 23:26

Worked fine when I’ve used it. Unfortunately the RAA can’t use it without a full PPL, I think

Not correct. Any aircraft / pilot can access class E with a transponder and VHF radio.

LeadSled

23rd Sep 2019, 01:15

I have a suspicion that there are professional pilots who deeply resent having to share airspace and that they have a disproportionate voice in airspace planning, but I have no direct evidence.

Sunfish,
Correct, and part of that is that most of the pilots (FOIs etc) in CASA are members of the same union, AFAP, as a proportion of Australian (mostly) domestic pilots. Many of them have a huge chip on both their shoulders (balanced personality) about anything they associate with "septic tanks".

I have personally witnessed a then executive member of the AFAP state, with respect to E versus G:" I don't care if it is safer, we are not going to do what the f-----ing septics do".

That also explains why "I fly IFR" is a badge of rank in Australia, elevating you above the great VFR unwashed, variously called "weekend warriors" flying "bugsmashers" --- the contempt exhibited is palpable. The "regional" pilots who act as though they have right of way are very much in evidence, appalling behaviour by self-confessed "professionals".

That also explains, in large part, why the originally very successful PIFR has regressed, been made all too hard, completely defeating its original purpose.

Looking dispassionately at many of the roadblocks in Australian aviation (roadblock is appropriate, keeping people on the road) says a lot about a very unhealthy psychology..
Tootle pip!!

aroa

23rd Sep 2019, 01:52

Decisions, decisions.
I still amazes me and many others no doubt, when faced with " lowering cloud and rising terrain" the classic scenario that is talked about ad nauseam...why, oh why do some people persist ?

Havent they had a few 'ring twitcher' events to learn from in the past.?

LeadSled

23rd Sep 2019, 01:55

Capn Bloggs

23rd Sep 2019, 02:35

My understanding is that most of the USA has class E down to either 1200' or 800' AGL. The idea is to provide ATC separation services to IFR aircraft, including during an instrument approach. If IFR separation is not required i.e. VMC, the aircraft can cancel IFR and proceed VFR.
It is a pity that you and others don't appear to understand the fundamental problem with E airspace. That is, VFR do not know where the IFR is and IFR do not know where the VFR is. In effect, in seductively nice weather, some think we can all just look out the window and See and Avoid. But that's not how it works. It is impossible to effectively see and avoid when flying fast turboprops/jets. You won't see me and I won't see you. Dick Smith acknowledged the dangers of Class E when he implemented mandatory transponders for all aircraft in E in an attempt to mitigate this intractable issue.

Rockwell112B

23rd Sep 2019, 03:07

Do you know what altitude they were travelling at through the whole track?

andrewr

23rd Sep 2019, 03:11

Are pilots in the USA smarter? Better eyesight? Cleaner windows?

Squawk7700

23rd Sep 2019, 03:15

It is a pity that you and others don't appear to understand the fundamental problem with E airspace. That is, VFR do not know where the IFR is and IFR do not know where the VFR is. In effect, in seductively nice weather, some think we can all just look out the window and See and Avoid. But that's not how it works. It is impossible to effectively see and avoid when flying fast turboprops/jets. You won't see me and I won't see you. Dick Smith acknowledged the dangers of Class E when he implemented mandatory transponders for all aircraft in E in an attempt to mitigate this intractable issue.

I flew for approximately 8 hours in mostly class E over the weekend, above and in the flight levels and it was great. I was watching IFR traffic on the ADSB-in and ATC were advising me of traffic that may be an issue for me and likewise for them. I was only running mode C however they tagged my rego when I asked for a mode C check (hadn’t been used for a while). They even proactively called me up as I was heading towards Albury and they noticed that I didn’t have a plan in the system, so they asked if I wanted one and when I said yes, they already had a code ready.

Thumbs up ATC.

Squawk7700

23rd Sep 2019, 03:47

ABC News is saying that the mine hunting boat has spotted some debris and that Police divers are now on the way to identify it.

Are you referring to the Huey?

Aussie Bob

23rd Sep 2019, 04:22

Tragic and hard. But on the other points raised i think rather than always pass blame we sometimes need to be accountable for our decisons without blaming someone else..

Very true Extralight. Aviation, more than most other pursuits calls for a high degree of self responsibility. No ATC is ever going to send me anywhere perilous. EVER

surely part of the problem then. Where I fly every PPL student flight has a flight plan filed. Teach it properly during the training.

Flight notification is part of the RPL and PPL curriculum, this is not the demographic I am referring to. There is a considerable older pilot population who learnt back in the days of Full SAR.

Dick Smith

23rd Sep 2019, 05:56

It is interesting how we seem to have such a lower percentage of instrument rated pilots than, say, the USA. The latest figures I have seen state that 16% of pilots in Australia have an instrument rating, while in the USA it is 65%.

I’m sure it is in relation to the extra cost and complexity to get an instrument rating here, and also the cost of keeping it current. I would imagine the percentage with instrument ratings is even lower now.

giantkingsquid

23rd Sep 2019, 06:04

And also that on average the weather is better here.

0ttoL

23rd Sep 2019, 06:05

Are you referring to the Huey?

Apologies. Wrong thread.

Piston_Broke

23rd Sep 2019, 07:04

Are pilots in the USA smarter? Better eyesight? Cleaner windows?

Far more extensive radar surveillance for ATC.

Sunfish

23rd Sep 2019, 07:07

Far more extensive radar surveillance for ATC.

We are talking the east coast, not the Simpson desert.

LeadSled

23rd Sep 2019, 07:23

Dick Smith acknowledged the dangers of Class E when he implemented mandatory transponders for all aircraft in E in an attempt to mitigate this intractable issue.
Bloggsie,
You know, as well as I do, that the above statement is just plain wrong, and how the transponder mandate came about ---- an attempt to appease the AFAP, a political move to try and get airspace classification, modernisation and harmonisation moving.

Remember the AFAP "Technical" Director's statement at the time: "That perceptions of risk had to be mitigated, even if there was no demonstrated risk". To be read in conjunction with my previous post about perceptions of anti-US bias(indeed, anti non-"Australian" --- the only soldier in the battalion in step syndrome) by said person.

And--- the not unimportant FACT that E without mandatory transponder satisfied ICAO risk management criteria for E airspace --- and still does.

Just another example of the impossibility of reasoning with troglodytes and Luddites.

Don't try and re-write history!!
Tootle pip!!

Capn Bloggs

23rd Sep 2019, 07:34

aroa

23rd Sep 2019, 07:37

Leadie yre right ....the criminal record is very easy to come by thanks to the AvPolis . True or not...just ask me.
And Dick ....re the IFR rating as a PPL of long standing, never got one due to initial costs and ongoing renewals, as its something that needs to be use all the time to have the head in gear.
Had a few 'exciting moments' ..twitch twitch, sweat, sweat in my travels and having heeded the lessons, so far so good.
I do realise that I'm still capable of doing something stupid with an aeroplane, sometimes when you see what others do its all too easy.

Piston_Broke

23rd Sep 2019, 08:54

We are talking the east coast, not the Simpson desert.

Some of us are talking about Class E airspace anywhere.

Class E airspace without ATC surveillance for the provision of traffic information and separation is problematic.

junior.VH-LFA

23rd Sep 2019, 09:16

You can't take your horse and cart on the freeway...

It should be an unalienable Australian right to be able to take your skateboard on the freeway and make trucks and buses try and avoid you. No one owns the roads.

Sunfish

23rd Sep 2019, 10:36

LFA: It should be an unalienable Australian right to be able to take your skateboard on the freeway and make trucks and buses try and avoid you. No one owns the roads.

Now we see your true colours; you are 'trucks and buses' we are just teenage tattooed scum using skateboards.....and YOU own the roads.

Get this straight VH - LFA, I have just spent seven weeks in Europe driving the Autoroutes, Autobahns and Autostradas for only about 4034 km. Over there, in civilised countries, the trucks are required to drive at least 10 kmh slower than us "scum" in mere cars and the trucks are not allowed to drive in the outer lanes which have to be kept free for cars. Why? For safety of course! it has been that way for at least 40 years! Perhaps we need to tighten the restrictions on how YOU fly and leave us skateboard riders alone.

I think you must be a little slow. I have never noticed problems in the U.S. separating traffic. It appears to me that RAAF and RPT pilots here are either inept or *******, sorry, "risk averse", or perhaps both because no one else seems to need the huge exclusion zones you inflict on us, or maybe its just snobbery, you don't like to share with ordinary folk... i guess that's possible since you don't appear to like the American egalitarian model. Do you perhaps hanker for the days of brooklands and biggin hill? Dancing at the Savoy? When only proper gentlemen flew aircraft?

andrewr

23rd Sep 2019, 10:36

It should be an unalienable Australian right to be able to take your skateboard on the freeway and make trucks and buses try and avoid you.

If you want to use the roads as an example, at least use the right classes of vehicles - you are talking about private vs. commercial.

If private cars were restricted from using freeways, commercial drivers would be celebrating. They would tell you how private drivers didn't understand the braking distances required for a truck, so it is too dangerous to mix cars and trucks on the same road. They would tell you how much extra fuel it would cost if they had to deal with car traffic. They would tell you that buses have many more passengers than cars, so cars should not be allowed to delay them. They would tell you that they are doing productive work, vs. the private car drivers just out for a drive or visiting friends.

They would probably be right. Many (e.g. public transport advocates) would support banning private vehicles on freeways and having everyone take public transport. The world might be a better place. But it would be very different.

You didn't realize commercial pilots were public transport zealot greenies, did you :)

Maggie Island

23rd Sep 2019, 10:41

LFA:

Now we see your true colours; you are 'trucks and buses' we are just teenage tattooed scum using skateboards.....and YOU own the roads.

Get this straight VH - LFA, I have just spent seven weeks in Europe driving the Autoroutes, Autobahns and Autostradas for only about 4034 km. Over there, in civilised countries, the trucks are required to drive at least 10 kmh slower than us "scum" in mere cars and the trucks are not allowed to drive in the outer lanes which have to be kept free for cars.

I have a fair to good feeling LFA would assign the scum rating to the skateboarders in this curious yet entertaining metaphor.

kaz3g

23rd Sep 2019, 11:14

blob:https://www.pprune.org/e93578c5-509c-407d-8868-8cd6f8c5f31e

junior.VH-LFA

23rd Sep 2019, 11:22

I use both, the metaphor was in reference to the use of transponders in Class E. Sorry to give you an aneurism sunny. Avalon E works quite nicely, both at work but also on the weekend when I’ve used it. I’d hate to be arriving there though if VFR traffic weren’t on mode C.

I think I’ve pointed out multiple times now that I pay for my own flying, I’m not exactly not on your side. If anything I have quite a balanced view (or at least, I like to think so) as both sides of the argument affect me as it does a lot of others. You’ll have noticed I’ve never said anything in support ASICs, costs of regulation, many of the bizarre restrictions placed on us as pilots just want to enjoy flying. I have plenty of my own red tape grievances with our regulator, which while not appropriate to share, have been no end of frustrating to me.

Things like asking for clearances, filing flight plans and squawking aren’t hard or I’d think massive concessions in the modern age. On the contrary they make things safer for everyone and are quite practical. Directly in this thread, planning not to use Coffs CTA (if that’s what occurred) due to it being too burdensome is a bit silly.

Maybe I am a little slow, but I do do this most days of the year, in varying capacities. Both IFR and VFR paying my way, I love flying, not just as a job but believe it or not as a hobby. There’s balance to what everyone wants; what we have now is too far in one way, what others want is too far the other.

Lead Balloon

23rd Sep 2019, 12:02

junior.VH-LFA

23rd Sep 2019, 12:05

Yet those who think Class E is a “quite pointless concept” will fly their RPT aircraft full of passengers in G.

I never expected to come to the conclusion that aviation is the area of regulation in Australia that is the least informed by objective evidence and objective risk and cost benefit analyses, but I’m frequently reminded of that fact.

As long as the E starts above the lower levels of the instrument approaches at the airfield (plus buffer) I see no logical reason it couldn’t be implemented across most of Australia’s CTA’s safely and I think that would be pretty fair.

Lead Balloon

23rd Sep 2019, 12:06

I look forward to you and Cap’n Bloggs debating the issue.

junior.VH-LFA

23rd Sep 2019, 12:09

I look forward to you and Cap’n Bloggs debating the issue.

:p can’t win them all!

ADSB would help support Class E airspace. But there’s been some pretty fierce resistance to that also. I was under the belief ASA was trying to increase the amount of Class E in Aus anyway, using improvements in technology as a driver for that.

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/wp-content/uploads/FactSheet-Class-E-airspace-change-Final.pdf

Sunfish

23rd Sep 2019, 12:21

VH-LFA my post is over the top and I apologise.

What I think I am trying to say is that all airspace users have equal rights and attempts to differentiate are ending in tragedy.

junior.VH-LFA

23rd Sep 2019, 12:26

VH-LFA my post is over the top and I apologise.

What I think I am trying to say is that all airspace users have equal rights and attempts to differentiate are ending in tragedy.

All good, we all get passionate about the things we care about. We can agree to disagree, I appreciate your passion for aviation, whether I agree with you or not.

atcnews

23rd Sep 2019, 12:34

Airservices is putting together a proposal to change the C to E over Coffs, which will make some in this thread happy.

I can't post links yet but there is a file about Coffs on the Airservices airspace modernisation site.

ramble on

23rd Sep 2019, 20:27

It's all about money.....

GA drivers avoid IFR & C because Air Services charges exorbitantly.

Conversly, every day our arline drivers are forced to mix it in regional centre CTAFs with GA aircraft of varied levels of equipment, awareness and competence because we are too cheap to have decent regional ATC. No wonder you all have snow white hair! I'd hate to have 150 in the back in an Australian CTAF trying to sort out where each of them are.

What? we have no money to put ATC in a tower when an airliner is due in? Well with the wonderful plan of 50 million by 2050 you'd all better put your fingers in your ears because there might be a big bang soon.

F...ck me, they even do this in India

Here, in Australia INC. EVERY EFFING THING IS ABOUT PROFIT! Even our military is too cheap to have decent ATC.

Here s a message; change the rampant capitalistic model and bring back older values of making our land a d e cent place to live for the people that pay taxes for it. Accidents such as this shouldn't happen in a well run system.

In Australia, CASA and ASA have forced pilots and ATC to hate each other and this shouldn't be the case - we are a team, ATC are not the police.

Lead Balloon

23rd Sep 2019, 21:25

It's all about money.....Would that that were true.

It’s partly about the money.

It’s mainly about airspace arrangements that are driven by perception and convenience rather than objective evidence and objective risk and cost benefit analyses.

There are RPT pilots in Australia who would prefer to fly in G than E. That’s got nothing to do with what’s going on in people’s pockets. It’s got everything to do with what’s going on between those pilot’s ears.

The languid ease with which hundreds of cubic kilometres of airspace can be locked up so as to cosset one ADF aircraft is a product of culture, not science or money.

deja vu

24th Sep 2019, 00:21

I have met pilots who don’t have the confidence to request and comply with a clearance through C!

How sad is that. ?
I can recall flying with my son, then a PPL holder, in a Cherokee arrow from MIA to MEB about 20 years ago on a VFR day with a very strong northerly and a forecast of severe turbulence below 5000. Around Bendigo he wanted to start stepping down to take the western light aircraft lane. When I suggested we request a clearance to overfly MEL and MEN he was dubious because it was too hard. Anyway, he asked and 3 minutes later had a clearance. We still got a beating on the descent into MEB but only for a short time compared to an hour bashing about at 1500'. He had been taught to avoid controlled airspace like the plague because ATC didn't want bug smashers bothering them. You have to ask ATC "are you here for us or are we here for you"

megan

24th Sep 2019, 01:25

cubic kilometres of airspace can be locked up so as to cosset one ADF aircraft is a product of culture, not science or moneyIt surprised me, having done my ab initio VFR training with a US military unit where the training areas were listed as "Danger Areas", to come home to Oz where training areas were "Restricted Areas". Traffic transiting through our US training areas ranged from lighties to airline Electras, all on a see and be seen basis, no radio comms (1967).

Lead Balloon

24th Sep 2019, 01:47

Yeah, but what would the most advanced civil and military aviation nation on the planet know about risk-based airspace arrangements.

Sunfish

24th Sep 2019, 02:02

I think it is an offence for a VFR aircraft to even file a flight plan that comes within 2 miles of controlled airspace. Given that and:

(a) CASA hates small airplanes and private pilots, and

(b) there are criminal penalties for contravening regulations, and

(c) CASA is known to be capricious, vindictive and vicious (ask Glen Buckley).

Why would any private pilot not minimise their use of controlled airspace?

It’s not so bad when one is exceedingly familiar with a region and knows the choke points(for example West Gate Bridge is now C above 1500ft.), but why would you try using controlled airspace in unfamiliar territory perhaps in deteriorating weather?

Can we see how this safety equation kills people?

Unforgiving airspace + unfamiliarity and lack of effective training + fear of prosecution + lack of alternative airports + confusing regulation capriciously enforced + deteriorating weather = recipe for accidents

Lead Balloon

24th Sep 2019, 02:11

I think it is an offence for a VFR aircraft to even file a flight plan that comes within 2 miles of controlled airspace I think you are wrong. The controlled airspace boundary avoidance planning margins for VFR aircraft are long gone and, in any event, if you file a plan...

mcoates

24th Sep 2019, 02:15

All that you need to claim on your first contact with air traffic control is "unfamiliar with area" that then transfers the responsibility (as much as a can) for air traffic control to give you assistance in staying legal in an area that you don't frequent.

I like it because it gives you two benefits, firstly they know you are not familiar with the area so may not know what you are doing all the details of local landmarks and reporting points and secondly it gives you the confidence that even if you get it wrong they will be there to provide assistance and keep you legal.

I learnt very early on that there assistance can be invaluable when there is bad weather and you are not familiar with areas you are flying into. But learning about these areas and the procedures as well as knowing your limits is all part of the adventure that we call aviation

LeadSled

24th Sep 2019, 02:31

Yes Sleddee, some forward-thinker thought that it might just be a good idea for ATC to know where the VFR was as he/she/they wended their way through terminal airspace unannounced/uncontrolled, so allowing ATC to vector A380s around them. You can't take your horse and cart on the freeway...
Bloggsie,
As I said previously, you know, as well as I do, what really happened.
Are you perhaps now suffering the effluxion of time and developing terminal misapprehension, a very debilitating affliction???
Tootle pip!!
PS: Plenty of A380s flying in both E and G, and all the rest

Global Aviator

24th Sep 2019, 03:33

Capn Bloggs

24th Sep 2019, 04:25

PS: Plenty of A380s flying in both E and G, and all the rest
So no problems with us regional jets plying the skies in our RPT jets in G+/F then, eh but?

A380s in G. Where?

I must admit there is quite a bit of efflux around here. :rolleyes:

I was going to let it rest, but since you're back, transponders in E/ICAO bla bla bla is almost as bad as radar required in C... it must be so, the minister directed it!! :}

Transponders in E = eminently sensible
Radar for C = not necessary/political stunt.

bentleg

24th Sep 2019, 07:44

I think it is an offence for a VFR aircraft to even file a flight plan that comes within 2 miles of controlled airspace.

Rubbish. Done it many times. How would you lodge a plan when you are seeking clearance into C?

Squawk7700

24th Sep 2019, 08:12

Give it a rest please Sunfish. You don’t appear to be happy unless you’re criticising CASA, SAAA, RA-Aus or someone else!

junior.VH-LFA

24th Sep 2019, 08:55

I think it is an offence for a VFR aircraft to even file a flight plan that comes within 2 miles of controlled airspace.

C'mon dude.

You have to know that isn't true.

deja vu

24th Sep 2019, 09:01

Give it a rest please Sunfish. You don’t appear to be happy unless you’re criticising CASA, SAAA, RA-Aus or someone else!

How the hell does it effect you? you don't like his post, who cares?, move on.

Cloudee

24th Sep 2019, 09:02

I think you are wrong. The controlled airspace boundary avoidance planning margins for VFR aircraft are long gone and, in any event, if you file a plan...

Correct. Been gone for a few years.

Lead Balloon

24th Sep 2019, 09:05

C'mon dude.

You have to know that isn't true.
Errm, could you quote the current rules that require the margin to be planned?

Cloudee

24th Sep 2019, 09:05

How the hell does it effect you? you don't like his post, who cares?, move on.
Do you see the irony in your post?

BigPapi

24th Sep 2019, 09:07

I think it is an offence for a VFR aircraft to even file a flight plan that comes within 2 miles of controlled airspace.

That's a piss-take, isn't it.

Squawk7700

24th Sep 2019, 09:32

Do you see the irony in your post?

lol. So true.

Because there are plenty of us on here that actually enjoy aviation, do our best to promote it, base our livelihoods on it and work hard with the regulators and other bodies to promote it.

Then there are the negative nelly’s who seemingly can’t stop denigrating it and complaining all the time, but yet won’t put up their hands to help. It’s like someone that would write a bad google reviews about a hotel because the lift was too slow.

deja vu

24th Sep 2019, 09:42

Do you see the irony in your post?

Sorry, but I thought you would still be licking your wounds from our last encounter, but I guess "no sense no feeling" is still as relevant today as it was in the past.

Cloudee

24th Sep 2019, 09:44

lol. So true.

Because there are plenty of us on here that actually enjoy aviation, do our best to promote it, base our livelihoods on it and work hard with the regulators and other bodies to promote it.

Then there are the negative nelly’s who seemingly can’t stop denigrating it and complaining all the time, but yet won’t put up their hands to help. It’s like someone that would write a bad google reviews about a hotel because the lift was too slow.
Agreed. I think I’ll just ignore the clown from now on.

deja vu

24th Sep 2019, 09:52

lol. So true.

Because there are plenty of us on here that actually enjoy aviation, do our best to promote it, base our livelihoods on it and work hard with the regulators and other bodies to promote it.

Then there are the negative nelly’s who seemingly can’t stop denigrating it and complaining all the time, but yet won’t put up their hands to help. It’s like someone that would write a bad google reviews about a hotel because the lift was too slow.
Yeah, see its the compliant putty like characters who have turned aviation into the shambles it is today. But "work hard with the regulators" is over the top, excuse me while I vomit.
I can picture the bend over exercise now!

deja vu

24th Sep 2019, 09:53

Agreed. I think I’ll just ignore the clown from now on.
Good Idea, you're out of you're league.

junior.VH-LFA

24th Sep 2019, 09:58

Errm, could you quote the current rules that require the margin to be planned?

There are none. You can operate right up to the boundary.AIP ENR 1.1 2.1.2

Note 2: For aircraft operating in close proximity to an airspace boundary where there is a risk of an airspace infringement, the pilot in command should consider obtaining a clearance to enter the airspace or altering track to remain well clear.

There's absolutely nothing about not planning through CTA in AIP. Just don't enter it without a clearance.

mcoates

24th Sep 2019, 10:39

And what lessons can we all learn on the last two pages about a fatal accident that took two lives, a father and son who lived in my street.

You have degraded what was a very valuable reminder that was given to us again at the cost of the lives of two people which will hopefully reinforce to many of our VFR cousins not to take undue risks.

The name is Porter

24th Sep 2019, 10:51

Where the change is most needed is in the mindset of one union, AFAP, who have opposed most every change or advance in the many years I have been around the business, not limited to airspace management.

Sled, must admit, I haven't followed their gripes. Uneducated as it must be!

Overall, Class E airspace is quite a pointless concept but never so ridiculously applied as overhead a major destination between Class D and C airspace.

This is breathtaking in it's arrogance and ignorance and typical of the Austronaut. Is it any wonder that Australian's are thought of as they are around the world. I wonder if the author has seen it work in the States?

You can't drive a horse and cart on the freeway

Can in the States, saw it in Pennsylvania. Probably not in a lot of States. But you can.

Bloggs, take a holiday, convert your CASA to FAA, I've got a mate who'll do your FR for knicks, try it out.

Lead Balloon

24th Sep 2019, 11:51

There are none. You can operate right up to the boundary.AIP ENR 1.1 2.1.2

Note 2: For aircraft operating in close proximity to an airspace boundary where there is a risk of an airspace infringement, the pilot in command should consider obtaining a clearance to enter the airspace or altering track to remain well clear.

There's absolutely nothing about not planning through CTA in AIP. Just don't enter it without a clearance.That’s exactly what I said, junior.

The word “junior” in your handle is appropriate. It used to be the case that aircraft operating outside controlled airspace had to plan for tracks with specified margins to avoid the boundaries of controlled airspace. If my memory serves me correctly, it used to be something like 2nm for boundaries up to 2,000’, 4nm for boundaries up to 4,000’ and so on. But it’s now irrelevant, so I don’t care about it. Sunfish may be labouring under the misconception that those rules still apply. But thanks for your insights, junior.

Lookleft

24th Sep 2019, 12:04

Lead Balloon

24th Sep 2019, 12:09

Yes, I agree,

Let us pause and say nothing, until the ATSB gets around to producing whatever work of fiction they produce, within the next 2 years (or whenever).

Sunfish

24th Sep 2019, 12:58

Lead Balloon is. correct, but what you #4#4wits miss is the point that you can end up with a criminal conviction for infringing some arcane, convoluted and capriciously enforced regulation. Which is different from any other law in Australia. THAT is what is killing your industry like a slow acting weed killer.

Regarding clearances to CTA boundaries, Lead Baloon is correct. It is an offense as I remember it. What you ****ers don’t understand is that CASA doesn’t publicize the removal of any or all such prohibitions. So those of us who. don’t spend every second reviewing the rules err on the side of personal legal safety. It is not enough to remove a sentence in a regulation against doing something.. Only a ******* idiot would take that as permission from CASA to do whatever it was.

As far as I am concerned, and any prudent pilot, there is a prohibition against planning a VFR flight path within 1 or 2 nm. of a CTA boundary until CASA explicitly gives permission to the contrary. Removing a reference doesn’t cut it. They might have shoved it somewhere else.

I cannot seem to get it through to you that the threat of criminal prosecution is a deal breaker for most Australians, especially professionals.

wishiwasupthere

24th Sep 2019, 16:55

Well f&%k off then and stick to boating!

Sunfish

24th Sep 2019, 19:17

Well f&%k off then and stick to boating!

‘Wish I had, but Flying is addictive and fun....Until I found out about the miserable regulations and the apparent creatures that construct and enforce them. Just ask Glen Buckley.

You know what is different about aviation in Australia? The fear that surrounds it. It’s like no other activity. I visited a strip near Melbourne - walked into a hangar where a few people were working on aircraft. The look they gave me was what I later identified as fear - for a second they thought I might be from CASA. The atmosphere at two major institutions was also fear. The students and instructors feared the CFI and the CASA man who visited. These were not happy places

The subterfuges when there is a minor hiccup so as not to raise an incident report, the trash that goes into the incident reports that are raised. The culture of “tell em nothing” because what you say could hurt you. The guarded responses to direct questions by people worried by liability or worse still, because if they told you the truth you would walk away. The constant self censorship. These are products of a fearful culture.

There are pockets of light and fun in the general darkness and these need to be extended, but the darkness coming out of Canberra has to be stopped. Think Sauron and his lair on Mt. Doom but I’m waxing poetic.

havick

24th Sep 2019, 21:21

VH-LFA;

Its our country. Unless the Aborigines invented “controlled airspace” there is nothing sacred about it. Just change it. ...Or do we believe that RAAF Group Captain Blair Ponsonby Smythe and Sir Humphrey Appleby actually own the airspace and can tell us peasants what to do?

As Dick has, I think, pointed out, how many ordinary unprivileged pilots and their passengers have to die just to satisfy the RAAF ask for many hundreds of square miles of airspace to play in and the absurd liability fantasies of CASA and AsA?

How many dead this month due to rotten controlled airspace real estate rules? One mooney and one Iroquois? Six or seven people?’

And another thing...,,CASA and their lapdog, the ATSB, sunk the slipper into Angel Flight for far less reason. Where is the special report into East Coast transit airspace and procedures that force small aircraft into flying over water or mountains instead of along the coast with at least the possibility of a safe forced landing? More people have been killed by the current East Coast airspace rules than Angel Flight ever did.

Rant mode off.

meanwhile I just flew through Luke Air Force base MOA next to Phoenix in a helicopter, with a bunch of f16’s and other jets blasting around low level, no problems approach just passes along the traffic.

Desert Flower

24th Sep 2019, 22:10

You can't drive a horse and cart on the freeway

Can in the States, saw it in Pennsylvania. Probably not in a lot of States. But you can.

Wherever there are Amish in the US you will see horses & buggies on the freeway.

DF.

LeadSled

26th Sep 2019, 02:10

A380s in G. Where?
.
Bloggsie,
See if you can get hold of some Jepp charts covering the Indian Ocean, the Indian sub-continent, and some surrounding countries (just for starters) --- you will undoubtedly be surprised..
Tootle pip!!

Capn Bloggs

26th Sep 2019, 05:58

the Indian Ocean, the Indian sub-continent, and some surrounding countries (just for starters) --- you will undoubtedly be surprised..
As I expected... :rolleyes:

LeadSled

27th Sep 2019, 00:56

As I expected... :rolleyes:
That you found the G --- or you couldn't find it?? It ain't hard.
You should really extend your horizons, the world is not Australia, we are just a strange little (and hostile to) statistical blip on the story of aviation.
As a former Director said: "Australian is an aviation Galapagos, where things have developed in splendid isolation" --- about the only thing he said, with which I agreed!
Tootle pip!!

PS; Outside Australia, a vast number of airline pilots would not have a clue what kind of airspace they are in, at any particular time, the fixation is an Australian "thing".

neville_nobody

27th Sep 2019, 04:17

Outside Australia, a vast number of airline pilots would not have a clue what kind of airspace they are in, at any particular time, the fixation is an Australian "thing".

That is because ATC in Australia don't take responsibility for keeping you in it, as a few International Airlines have discovered after receiving a please explain and an ATSB investigation. Not saying that's necessarily right but that's how it is here. So you really need to be aware regardless of flight rules, what airspace you are in and when you are going to leave it.

Aussie Bob

27th Sep 2019, 06:22

You know what is different about aviation in Australia? The fear that surrounds it. It’s like no other activity. I visited a strip near Melbourne - walked into a hangar where a few people were working on aircraft. The look they gave me was what I later identified as fear - for a second they thought I might be from CASA. The atmosphere at two major institutions was also fear. The students and instructors feared the CFI and the CASA man who visited. These were not happy places

You move in different circles than me Sunny. Sorry, I just don’t do that fear, nor do I worry too much what the Reg’s say. I simply love flying and have done so for more than 3 decades in GA. I don’t see that fear amongst my colleagues either.

Like the sad Huey thread, there is an elephant in the room here too that no one wants to talk about. Sad indeed but true nevertheless.

Sunfish

27th Sep 2019, 10:34

Aussie Bob

27th Sep 2019, 10:57

Most places I see have a siege mentality.

i will concede and admit that I know what you are talking about here .... :-)

LeadSled

27th Sep 2019, 11:07

Aussie Bob, I tell it as I see it. I could name names if you like. I have seen a few places that seem happier - far, very far, from cities or at least the Melbourne basin.

Most places I see have a siege mentality.

Folks,
The sad thing is Sunny is right, Aussie Bob has lead a aviation charmed life, long may it continue.
No other country, that I have flown in, and that is many, operate a system described by a then very senior CASA lawyer as : "Aviation regulation is for lawyers and judges, for the safe conviction of pilots and engineers".
Look up the "pingya" system of training, unique to Australia: Do xxxxxx, otherwise "they'l pingya!!" ---- training by fear of the consequences.
AND!! ---- for all this we have a rather ordinary record for aviation safety, contrary to local self-delusion --- not within a bull's roar of US.(except for gliding).
Tootle pip!!

PS:
(1)Some little time back, scene a larger NSW country town, weekend with quite a bit of activity, multiple hangar doors open, probably 20-30 cars parked around the place.
The Airstapo turn up, go into the one man flying school, then emerge about 30 minutes later, to have a look around ---- Nothing to see here, all the hangars locked, and only one or two cars, including mine, CASA and those in the club.remaining..
(2) CASA "behaviour" was in large degree responsible for the downfall of NatFly at Narrowmine, biggest flying-in in Australia, in the G.O.Ds.
(3) Very few people ever fly into Avalon East during an airshow, they know CASA is waiting.

Square Bear

27th Sep 2019, 11:18

PS; Outside Australia, a vast number of airline pilots would not have a clue what kind of airspace they are in, at any particular time, the fixation is an Australian "thing".

Just made so much more sense when it was simply "CONTROLLED (CTA)....UNCONTROLLED (OCTA)....or GAAP".

Maybe more emphasis in training could be given to teaching that requesting a clearance through CTA is not such a difficult or daunting task.....demystify CTA if you will. I know that back in the day I found the CTA "stuff" overwhelming, and have no doubt that some PVT pilots would still do.

Whereas I was somewhat petrified to enter CTA back then, I am now as equally concerned, or more so, to enter UNCONTROLLED.

Squawk7700

27th Sep 2019, 21:52

(3) Very few people ever fly into Avalon East during an airshow, they know CASA is waiting.

Categorically not true unless several hundred is what you consider to be “very few.”

Those that do get ramped are commercial operators. Private flyers get free CASA handouts, like a chamois, fuel drainer, iPad covers and booklets to make them realize that CASA are there to help and to promote their large list of online resources, and that they spend millions developing to help make us safer pilots.

Stickshift3000

27th Sep 2019, 22:03

Those that do get ramped are commercial operators.

My first ramp check experience was as a private fly in at the last Avalon air show.

BigPapi

27th Sep 2019, 22:13

My first ramp check experience was as a private fly in at the last Avalon air show.

I've never been ramped, private ops or commerical ops.

How was the experience?

mcoates

27th Sep 2019, 22:23

I've never been ramped, private ops or commerical ops.

How was the experience?

It's like a rubber glove without lube ! :=

No, really i have had about 5 or 6 now and its a breeze...

They just ask for the stuff you need to have before flying, eg, min legal reguirements and your set to go and enjoy your day. I even had one give me a hand to tie down !

The first ramp checks I had I felt aggressive and targeted but it was not necessary.

Now, it is an opportunity for a 15 minute chat, a few free handouts which I then distribute around the club when I get back and CASA get to do what they really want. They can go back to the office on Monday saying we did 20 ramp checks and everything was good.

As much as we think otherwise I don't really believe they want to go into the office on Monday saying we did 20 ramp checks and 18 failed.

I think they would much rather go in and say great event, no problems.

Squawk7700

27th Sep 2019, 22:43

My first ramp check experience was as a private fly in at the last Avalon air show.

That’s interesting because at the last Avalon Airshow in 2019, multiple CASA employees told me that they would not be ramp checking any private operators unless they appeared to be visually close to, or over weight.

With the 45 degree heat at Avalon this year, I’m surprised their OHS obligations let them even head out into an open field.

Stickshift3000

28th Sep 2019, 00:55

That’s interesting because at the last Avalon Airshow in 2019, multiple CASA employees told me that they would not be ramp checking any private operators unless they appeared to be visually close to, or over weight

My mistake, it was actually the 2017 show.

Sword_2

28th Sep 2019, 04:29

Never been ramp checked personally, but a couple of years ago I helped out at a small airshow a few hundred k's North of Perth, which took place a few months after the Mallard crashed in the river in Perth on Australia Day.

Seeing pilots being met by CASA on their arrival and then again badgered immediately before heading out to display left a very bitter taste in my mind. If anything were to happen in a display the human factors 'stress' element would've been on my mind for the pilots performing.

Knowing what the organisers had had to go through to get all of the necessary approvals and then be shadowed and further harassed throughout the show really showed me how CASA view aviation.

Having grown up with airshows in the UK and the 'light touch' and progressive regulation, CASA is the complete antithesis of the UK CAA.

Whenever people ask me to explain the difference, the simplest explanation is that in the UK the regulations are written so that only the things that are prohibited are there in the rules (small & sensible), and if it's not written that you can't do it, then generally you can. In Australia, with CASA, everything that you are allowed to do has to be written and given express permission for (which is enormous, baffling, written in legalese and with all manner of get-outs and exemptions).

It raises a smile when as a fresh PPL holder with a basic IMC rating in the UK, I could fly to much lower minima than a CASA CPL/IR holder even when operating an aeroplane with far more 'toys' and equipment here than I used to in a previous life.

megan

28th Sep 2019, 06:07

Wasn't there but remember a story from the sixties of an air show put on at a newly opened dirt strip at a small country town. DCA were present and went around gathering the regos of all the present aircraft, mixed bag of single Cessnas, Pipers, Tigers, Austers. When asked why the answer was that the strip was considered not up to required standard because of the presence of a power line at one end and so all operators would be getting a please explain. DCA chaps were reminded to be careful when departing in their Aero Commander, and the dangers inherent in twin operations. Nothing more heard. Course it could have just been bar talk.

Sunfish

28th Sep 2019, 07:50

I wouldn’t even fly to an event where a ramp check was a possibility because, based on the stories contained in multiple threads on Pprune, it just might be the day CASA decide to make an example of someone “pour encourager les autres”. As I said; an atmosphere of fear of the regulator pervades aviation in this country and its a bad thing for safety in general.

Squawk7700

28th Sep 2019, 08:06

Vag277

28th Sep 2019, 08:29

Sunfish, you should give up aviation. Ramp checks are not confined to "events". They can be carried out anywhere. As noted above, if you have planned properly for your flight you will not have any issues unless you want to pick a fight. That said, in 47 years private flying and attending at events in several states I am yet to be "ramped" but have seen individuals who should be who have been woefully unprepared for flights completed or planned.

Sunfish

28th Sep 2019, 08:52

Car RAMROD

28th Sep 2019, 09:06

Here’s a good news ramp check story.

years ago, average GA company, usual “standard” of aircraft that the boss doesn’t really like spending money on to fix.

i start the day, about to begin the preflight. FOI and AWI ask to have a look around etc. AWI finds an issue and goes and tell the boss for me that the plane is grounded- they knew how the boss would respond if it was a pilot telling them there’s a grounded aircraft.

its not all bad.

all my other ramp checks, no problem- as long as you are doing the right thing.

you should toughen you sunny.

LeadSled

28th Sep 2019, 09:12

Squawk, there are 252 posts on this forum about ramp checks, not many are complimentary.

Vag, the regulations are so convoluted that no aircraft is “safe” from an inspector who decides she doesn’t like you.

To put it another way, can you imagine the public outrage if it was announced that every vehicle traveling to the footy today was going to be roadworthy tested and the drivers breathalyzer and checked for unpaid fines?

Folks,
Exactly!!
It is no myth.
Tootle pip!!

PS: One horror story, some time back (the repeat offender is now retired from DCA/DoT-ATG/CAA/CASA) ---- ramp an aerobatic aircraft as it returns from a training session, snag both pilots for not having sundry paperwork on board,----- because you want as little as possible to go flying around the cockpit ---- and I have never been able to get CASA to admit to a definitive list of what has to be produced at a ramp check --- and I mean "definitive" as in a legal defence.
So, you wind up in the AAT fighting an "expert witness" --- opinion, or just accept the penalty.
The last airshow at YSBK --- long time ago now, CASA made everybody's life hell on the day, from CASA sitting almost on the Ringmaster's lap, to what was straight forward harassment of individual pilots taking part.

Sunfish

28th Sep 2019, 09:43

To be fair, I think there is now a let out clause in the regulations regarding paperwork on aerobatic flights, at least I thought I saw it.

Squawk7700

28th Sep 2019, 10:23

You two sound like you came from the same mould.

Ramp checks aren’t bad unless you’re 99% incompetent. CASA have been providing well documented information to pilots for a fair number of years now on what you need to have onboard to satisfy a ramp check. They give them out on credit card sized cards, complete with lanyard. If you attended more aviation events and fly-ins, such as AirVenture Australia, Avalon or perhaps Narromine next month, you’d be able to pick up some of this paraphernalia for yourselves and see that it’s not all the doom and gloom that you say it is.

bentleg

28th Sep 2019, 11:23

(3) Very few people ever fly into Avalon East during an airshow, they know CASA is waiting.

There are usually 250 odd aircraft fly in on the Saturday and the Sunday. "very few" I guess depends on what you consider a normal number

junior.VH-LFA

28th Sep 2019, 11:25

andrewr

28th Sep 2019, 11:53

Ramp checks aren’t bad unless you’re 99% incompetent. CASA have been providing well documented information to pilots for a fair number of years now on what you need to have onboard to satisfy a ramp check.

One problem is that what CASA say you need to supply on a ramp check is not necessarily supported by the regulations - it is more of a wish list. Am I really required to tell CASA where I came from?

Also, most people probably do not strictly comply with e.g. weight and balance requirements. How many actually weigh each passenger? From the CASA web site:
although we’d rather connect with you using a carrot, not a stick, don’t forget that it’s only a matter of time until you’re ramp checked, and the nice friendly CASA man is going to want to see evidence of pilot and passenger weights (standard weights should not be used in aircraft with fewer than seven seats) and evidence of cargo weights.

Many people would estimate weights when they are very familiar with their aircraft weight and balance and are sure they are within limits. It is possible that does not comply with the letter of CASA's ramp check law. Can you always provide evidence of passenger weights?

Sunfish

28th Sep 2019, 19:15

.......and where is the current calibration certificate for the scales?

kaz3g

29th Sep 2019, 03:52

Offences under the Regs are generally strict liability but not reverse onus.

The old Latin maxim is Affirmati Non Neganti Incumbit Probatio.

LeadSled

29th Sep 2019, 09:20

One problem is that what CASA say you need to supply on a ramp check is not necessarily supported by the regulations - it is more of a wish list. Am I really required to tell CASA where I came from?

Also, most people probably do not strictly comply with e.g. weight and balance requirements. How many actually weigh each passenger? From the CASA web site:
although we’d rather connect with you using a carrot, not a stick, don’t forget that it’s only a matter of time until you’re ramp checked, and the nice friendly CASA man is going to want to see evidence of pilot and passenger weights (standard weights should not be used in aircraft with fewer than seven seats) and evidence of cargo weights.

Many people would estimate weights when they are very familiar with their aircraft weight and balance and are sure they are within limits. It is possible that does not comply with the letter of CASA's ramp check law. Can you always provide evidence of passenger weights?
andrewr
Spot on!
And Squark7700 probably has not ever had the pleasure of a ramp check from an aggressive AWI or FOI.
I am bleeding well aware of the various "guides" CASA and predecessors have trotted out over the years ----- but read and try and understand what I said, as andrewr understands.
I said that CASA has not and will not commit to any definitive list that --- if you comply, you pass ---- if the FOI/AWI does not agree with the "advisory" material he/she is not bound by it ----- and there is quite a major AAT case that applies.
Likewise passenger and fuel weights ---- look at the record over the years, a terrible can of worms ---- with some terrible injustices on the record, up to an including operators driven out of business, and CASA figures finally proven wrong, but years after the financial damage was terminal.
All in all a very sorry state of affairs.
Tootle pip!!

Squawk7700

29th Sep 2019, 09:33

When was your last ramp check LS, or better still, when did you last fly a GA aircraft as PIC?

LeadSled

29th Sep 2019, 15:25

When was your last ramp check LS, or better still, when did you last fly a GA aircraft as PIC?

Squawk,
If you mean, at which I was present (as a witness), quite recently, but I have absolutely no intention of identifying where and when, the aircraft owner/pilot would be very tee'd off if I did that, just to satisfy a critic.
As for the latter, none of your business (even in which country - I am licensed in more than one) and not relevant to the issue at hand. ------ as you seek to challenge my criticism of CASA, rather than address the issues.
Tootle pip!!

PS: I spend quite a lot of time on Bankstown aerodrome ---- no sign of GA life there, the movement rate is pathetic compared to years ago.

LeadSled

29th Sep 2019, 15:37

Offences under the Regs are generally strict liability but not reverse onus.
The old Latin maxim is Affirmati Non Neganti Incumbit Probatio.
Oh!, Dear me, wouldn't it be wonderful if that was truly the case, there would be far fewer AAT cases CASA v XXXX.
And reverse onus of proof is far too prominent --- at least it is mostly spelt out.
Tootle pip!!

Squawk7700

29th Sep 2019, 20:56

Squawk,
If you mean, at which I was present (as a witness), quite recently, but I have absolutely no intention of identifying where and when, the aircraft owner/pilot would be very tee'd off if I did that, just to satisfy a critic.
As for the latter, none of your business (even in which country - I am licensed in more than one) and not relevant to the issue at hand.

It is never straight forward for you to give an answer. I’m tipping you haven’t flown for a very long time and all of these horrid ramp check stories are either not from you, or happened many years ago in the “good old days.” None of us care when or where your friend was ramp checked either, or the secret mission you weren’t on, it was just a simple question really, to prove a point, which it looks like it did.

LeadSled

30th Sep 2019, 00:57

Squawk7700

30th Sep 2019, 01:49

Swuawk,
Suit yourself, you will, anyway! I have absolutely no intention of making my or my friends detailed activities public.
You are entitled to your opinion, and you are entitled to be wrong.
Tootle pip!!

Again... we don’t care for the detailed information as to you and your mates activities. I just wanted to hear if you were actually actively flying and had been experiencing these “aggressive” ramp checks that you speak of, or were they a product of a by-gone era.

Certainly not relevant to this discussion on the poor souls that lost their lives near Coffs.