DAT gets swedish government contracts - wonder why...

[Skunkworks]

Seems like Danish Air Transport continues to expand, now they are apparently set to start flying some of the "Rikstrafiken" routes.

I met a DAT First Officer (flight student), if I can remember right he had to PAY THEM 350 000 SEK (!) to "work"!? He could only afford to "work" for a few weeks then he had to go back to his old job to actually earn some money!

I tried to search here on the board, but couldnt find anything about this. Does anyone have the facts?

I mean paying for your rating seems a bit strange, but I suppose maybe from some perspective it might make sense. But paying to WORK... (If this is true) No wonder DAT can win the contracts!

/skunks

[Bengt Engel]

talked to the DAT people about a year ago, and 350' for an ATR job is as close as I can remember...and you only earned money for blockhours flown, and as far as my memory goes it wasn't much...
so you did actually get paid for hours flown, but had to pay to get there....

fecked up if you ask me....

[KADS]

As per my postings on the "Norwegian Air Shuttle expanding?" topic, this is what we all might expect in the future. It is a shame and I sure hope that un-professional companies requiring their pilots to pay such an amount will suffer a back-lash in the future. In the end, it is up to the pilot community to accept or not such a situation. Let us all hope for changing times soon!:cool:

Happy flying y'all!:D

[Nick Figaretto]

I heard they also live in a shoebox on the road. Eating dead caterpillars and smoking asphalt. It's a shame.

Nick. The Dick. Who should remember to ALWAYS log off PPRuNe after using a public computer - :D

[Kopfschmertzen]

As usual NOBODY comes even close to the real facts.:rolleyes:

Only 4 pilots out of 40+ pilots on the DAT ATR fleet are working on a FOT (First Officer Training) contract. DAT does not use this concept anymore, but are naturally obligated to finish allready signed contracts. You are talking peanuts here gentlemen.

KADS: Please enlighten a bit more

....."I sure hope that un-professional companies requiring their pilots to pay such an amount will suffer a back-lash in the future"

Apparently working conditions in DAT are not that bad - they have allready received several applications from SAS Commuter pilots, who are willing to sign anything just to have a job, and keep their home and family in good shape!

It is always very very easy to sit with your fat paycheck in hand, and dictate what other guys should do or not do...jeeeez!:mad:

[Skunkworks]

Kopfschmertzen, for some strange reason it feels like you just might work for DAT...

When you say we dont come close to the facts, can you tell us what was not correct!? Dont think anyone mentioned how many were under this slavery contract.

Funny you should mention peanuts. As the saying goes: If you pay peanuts - you get monkeys! Although I suppose in this case its the poor monkeys who end up paying alot more than peanuts...

And I can only agree with KADS, I hope that when the tables do turn and pilots are not so desperate for jobs, a company like DAT will suffer the consequences for their behaviour!

[Bengt Engel]

hey, headache, what KADS is trying to tell us is that he, like most of us, hate the idea of having to pay to get a job, which unfortunately is the case, especially here in scandi. Its sad that the aviation business has turned down this path....and KADS, I agree with you about the future....

[KADS]

Kopf. -

My paycheck isn't that fat although I do have one. So when I refer to companies that are unprofessional in the mentioned respect, I do not talk about the Pilots, who I am sure are very professional in their on sense, but rather management who takes advantage of a newly graduated pilot's ambition to get that first job. I think it is an outrage to have pay to get a job!!!
If you yourself have payed for your job, you if someone ought to agree with me.
Ideally no pilot should have to pay for a job or a rating after having spent so much money to obtain their licenses. If the companies are afraid of pilots bailing out after getting type rated, put them in a time limited bond. That is a fair agreement, I'd say.

Therefore I stand by my comment that you refered to. Many companies get by without treating their employees (ie pilots) in such a way. The more of us who have that opinion, the less of us would have to pay to get that (first) job!

Kind regards

[Kopfschmertzen]

Skunkworks, Who cares about where you work or where I work(except that if I happened to work for DAT, you think I'm a monkey like all the other DAT employes), it is not really the issue here, but you are welcome to keep guessing. :p The issue is facts please!

The money and hours mentioned is as far as I'm informed far from correct. ...and NO, I'm not gonna publish any contracts..!

And Skunkworks, your comments about peanuts and monkeys was "very funny" :rolleyes: - FedEx pilots could say the same thing about eg. SAS pilots! Every company has their own limits.

I hope that when the tables do turn and pilots are not so desperate for jobs, a company like DAT will suffer the consequences for their behaviour!
- don't worry - that's not gonna happen. Pilots will always be desperate for a flying job! All pilots are usually selfish and slaves of their hobby! The word Hypocrate pops up from time to time in my mind!

KADS & BENGT, I do sincerely agree with you, that nobody should pay for their flying hours. Bonding is more preferable. However it has nothing to do with unprofessional management at all. It is the result of living in a liberal world where the market mechanism rules. Unfortunately, it is time for some of you guys to wake up and realize that we do NOT live in an ideal world, no matter how much it would be appreaciated!

BTW - Now it looks like SAS pilots must increase productivity by 30 percent for "free" - funny world isn't it! The management must be very un-professional, and should therefore be punished severely for taking advantage of their pilots! :D :eek:

[Nick Figaretto]

PropsAreForBoats is a prick.

(Thanks a lot for not posting "the Ryanair letter" in my name!!!)


Nick The even bigger Prick.

[Zico]

BTW - Now it looks like SAS pilots must increase productivity by 30 percent for "free"
ehmm, where did you get that one from Kopfsmerzen?
Didn´t you just say that facts are the issue?

[K. Soze]

I am sitting here with an add from DAT from 2000 and it
states the following prices:

Beech 90/200 with
100 hours = 15400 euro
200 hours = 17500 euro
300 hours = 19800 euro

Beech 1900 with
100 hours = 18700 euro
200 hours = 20800 euro
300 hours = 23300 euro

ATR with
100 hours = 30800 euro
200 hours = 32900 euro
300 hours = 35500 euro

It includes MCC-course, Type rating and the mentioned number
of hours. And it also states the you will recieve a salery of 15 euro
pr. block flying hour.

[Techman]

Jamen så 'enlighten' os alle Zico. Skal SAS'erne til at være mere productive for den samme hyre?.

Desuden præsenterede Kopf... det ikke som facts, men det er vel også uinteressant, eller hvad.

Der var forresten en masse sandt i hvad Kopf... sagde i sit sidste indlæg.

[Kopfschmertzen]

Zico - suggest that you ask Kristian directly if you have objections to the figure. BTW, both Lindegaard and Holm has confirmed figures like that in the Scandi media earlier this summer.

K. Soze - thks! It proves my point.

[Flare armed]

Det samme gælder for co-pilots i Sunair. Her betaler man for sin omskoling og firmaet trækker X antal kroner fra din løn hver måned til hele "gildet" er betalt. Efter sigende er lønnen i forvejen meget lav i Sunair, så man får mindre ud end en arbejdsløs på støtten, når omskolingen er betalt hver måned :eek:

[Zico]

"The issue is facts please" og " As usual NOBODY comes close to the facts"
Det er hvad Kopfschmerzen selv siger Techman, så derfor er det vel ikke for meget at forlange at han selv overholder det. Også selvom du ofte er ligeglad med facts!
Jeg kan desværre ikke "enlighten dig mere lige nu, da forhandlingerne foregår "as we speak", men "30% produktivitetsstigning for free" er IKKE hvad Kr. Holm har sagt.
21-22 aug ved vi MÅSKE mere. Indtil da ER der ingen facts.
Men den dag hvor SAS schedulering bliver dygtige nok til at sætte mit timetal op fra 600 til 800 pr. år (30%) skal jeg da gerne flyve det, af ren respekt for DERES nyvundne effektivitet og kompetance :D

[Bengt Engel]

again, headache, if you had read my first post it states the same info as K.soze, so why does his post prove your point? Is it more "fact" in his...?

[SVE]

Hi Guys.

You want facts? All right here are some:
As Kopfschmerzen said only 4 FO’s are still on the “First Officer training program” called FOT, and DAT are obligated to fulfil their contract. Other than that this program has stopped. I’m not hiding behind aliases so it is not a secret that I am employed by DAT as a FC on the ATR’s.

To give you even more facts, my salary pr month is a base salary of 40.000 Dkr + pr Diems + production pay (300 Dkr pr Block hours). So I am not starving. I don’t think there are many “small” companies like DAT in Europe, who will pay a FC more money for flying their A/C. (Major airlines excluded). The Danish tax system evens out the difference anyway.

So like “headache” said: get your facts straight before you start biting at us.
DAT has changed a lot over the last couple of years…….And most important: There is a lot of really FUN contracts and flights all over the world.

SVE

[SVE]

Just to put some more jet fuel on the bonfire. Try comparing my information from the last reply with, let's say SKYWAYS. And remember that SKYWAYS are flying as SAS partner!!!!

Somethings wrong with this picture.......

SVE

[KADS]

SVE -

I am happy to see some straight facts and glad you're leading such a great life! Good for you! But I'm not sure how this turned from being a discussion on the moral of newly hired pilots having too pay to work, into a slagging match on the best commuter airline in Scandinavia?
As far as I know, you don't have to pay to work at Skyways nor do you pay for your rating.... (To the best of my knowledge)

Rgds

[SVE]

Do i have to spell it out....????

There are 4 FO's on the FOT programme. Their contract was made quite some time ago. And DAT have to fulfil this contract. Other than that there are nobody in DAT presently who is paying to fly, which if i remember correctly was what this topic started with.

I agree with you some part of the way that paying for flying is wrong, but i cannot see anything wrong in paying for your typerating. Do you want the job or not? thats what it all comes to in the end. No one i DAT forces people to buy a typerating.

My reference to SKYWAYS was not meant as a "hassle" or to put down SKYWAYS in anyway. I know nothing about how it is to work in SKYWAYS. But I know that they don't exactly pay "a lot".

Remember one thing: If you are not in one of the Major air lines, you will have to pay for your typerating in one way or another. Either you pay at once, or you make a training bond, which sometimes is so high and unfair that it will cost you in the end anyway.

This goes for most of the smaller airlines, they cannot afford to give you the typerating for free, because most emploees are gone with the wind, within short time, because everybody want's to fly for the major airlines. You cannot blame the management in the smaller companies for this. They are only trying to make ends meet, and to survive in a tough business.

SVE

[KADS]

Do i have to spell it out....????

I hope that's not the attitude you exercise on the flightdeck...

No you don't have to spell it out.
My point was only that as described in my previous postings: Overall in the business we would all be better off if no one had to pay to get a job. I do not understand your point that everyone has to pay for their first job.
Like you say, no one forces pilots to pay for the job but it encourges newly examined pilots to pay even more to get that first job. In an effort to improve the situation for fellow pilots, I cannot see why a derogatory opinion about such a situation would enrage you? I don't understand why any pilot wouldn't air an opinion about improving conditions for those who are at their very start of their career and are most vunerable?
As for your opinion about someone being worse off with a training bond for e.g. 3 years, than paying cash yourself, that just don't make any sense at all?
You can always buy your way out of a bond, but you don't get your money back once you paid for your job/rating, thus paying upfront could never be a more favourable alternative!


Rgds

[Bengt Engel]

SVE, I must say I adore your nickname even though your from denmark....:D

Bengan the swede.

[SVE]

OK KADS

Then don't pay for it, and find another job/company where you dont have to pay. It's a free world.

The problem is, someone else will pay. I think in the end we sort of agree, and have the same opinion, but it's an endless crusade trying to change this, because someone else will always come up with the money.

However we cannot blame the companies for doing this, the big problem is the "will fly for food" mentality of the pilots, at the start of their career. My point is stop blaming the Management. It's our own fault. And unfortunately if you look at RYAN AIR it looks like it's the future as well, But I admire your courage and dedication.......

Just for the record, I paid 5.000$ for my first typerating (F-27), and i have not paid a single dime since......

SVE

[Skunkworks]

First, my comment about the monkeys were not intended to be disrespectful against the pilots on the "FOT". Simply saying you get as much competence/loyalty as you pay for! Lets face it, we (pilots) are all becoming monkeys in the eyes of management these days! Enough about primates!

About where you work, I suppose it doesnt matter but you sure seem to know alot about the company for a person who doesnt have anything to do with it... You say that you will not publish any contract, how come you have the contract? You know who (SC-pilots) are applying to the company etc.

I do agree with you that it is all simple economics of supply and demand! Thats why the F/O is/was literally paying the Captains salary! Since this procedure according to you is about to stop, at least at DAT, consider the argument in general terms.

The line has to be drawn somewhere and I think its good that most of us seem to agree that actually paying to work has taken it too far. I can accept paying for my rating if the conditions otherwise are good, but when/if pilots are in demand I dont expect to do so.

[SVE]

Skunkworks, you are "right on", but as I said, we as pilots should change this tendency, and stop blaming the management. It's our own fault.....

I rest my case.....

SVE

[Kopfschmertzen]

Bengt, try deducting the costs associated with a full ATR rating done at FlightSafety in the States, and then deduct the full cost of an MCC course at an recognized school in Scandinavia, then you have the figure the lads were paying for the rating, and they were free leave at any point. Then deduct this figure from the total amount mentioned, and you have the figure that was payed for the hours. We still agree however, that paying for your work is not fair! But as SVE confirms(thanks) DAT is not using this system anymore.

Skunk.. Our opinions doesn't differ a lot I think. However when you and a few other guys insinuate in your postings that DAT got the contract because of pilots paying for their flighthours, thereby undermining the market prices, I think you're all very far from reality. Take a look here at this Skyways (http://www.flygtorget.se/upload/fil_20020627104858.pdf) pressrelease and you'll find out that Skyways did not have the guts to continue operating their routes, or maybe they are just hoping to overtake some better services from SC, who knows! Or take a look here (http://www.rikstrafiken.se/svenska/pressinfo/flygupp200208.htm) and se what Rikstrafiken has to say about it(only 5 made a bid!!!).

And Skunk... because you, I or someone else happen to posess some info from a company, doesn't automatically make us employees does it? - If that was the case, a lot of "gossipers" here on PPRUNE would seem to hold several CEO positions within the industry at the same time. :D

Kopf resting the case
------------------------------------------------------------------
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail

[Zico]

SVE; How many ATR´s have you got at DAT? And what routes do you fly?

[SVE]

Well, presently there are 8 ATR's in operation. 6 42's and 2 72's.
Some of the operations are ADHOC charter work (wery exiting), and some scheduled services. but the programme varies a lot.

We also do a lot of cargo work for FedEx and DHL.

Take a look at our homepage www.dat.dk for info. It's too long and complicated to list here.

-sorry, there was a komma after .dk on the web adress, it should work now!

SVE

[Zico]

Well, the homepage must be in for a C-check, didn´t work, but thanks. I´ll check it some other day.
I must admit that earlier, years ago, I didn´t like at all Mr. Rungholms way of attracting desperate pilots, (and also know some who felt very much sc****** by him, but if things are as you say now, good on ya´ll. Nice to see something grow in Danish aviation for a change. And what a growth!
Good luck on the new routes.

[SVE]

ZICO, try it again. I made a kommafault after the .dk
It's working now.

- yep a lot of things has changed.

SVE

[KADS]

SVE -
I believe we are of the same opinion although we are looking at it from different angles. Yes there will always be pilots willing to pay, but ideally we could all create a situation where such practices are limited. ( I know, maybe it'd be too good to be true, but ya have start somewhere ;))

[YAM]

"Bengt, try deducting the costs associated with a full ATR rating done at FlightSafety in the States, and then deduct the full cost of an MCC course at an recognized school in Scandinavia, then you have the figure the lads were paying for the rating, and they were free leave at any point."

Synes du virkeligt selv at det retfærdigører det? Jeg synes det er sygt!

Hvis man har betalt for sin rating er det sku' da ikke i orden at man KUN flyver 100 - 300 timer. Jeg fatter ikke at der er nogen der vil (og i øvrigt kan - medmindre at de har rige støtter). Jeg synes at det er dybt amoralsk at DAT overhovedet har haft sådan et program.

Jeg ser heller ikke noget i vejen for at man binder sig for en periode hvis firmaet betaler ens rating. Men hvis man selv betaler sin rating for at flyve firmaets flyvemaskine, så skal de fanme også betale fuld løn og garantere en minimums ansættelses periode (som svaret til den binding som hvis firmaet havde betalt). Sådanne anstændige firmaer findes faktisk i Danmark - f.eks. NewAir.

En helt anden ting - om aber og peanuts. Så synes jeg at det er grotesk at DAT hellere vil have folk der betaler ved kasse 1 end de mest kvalificerede piloter der er på markedet.

[Sabre Aviator]

RTO,
hvorfor skriver du ikke en lille bog om det. Vi er flere der gerne ser emnet belyst af andre årsager. Det vel til alles bedste at tingene kommer for dagen. Der er ingen grund til at holde hånden over nogen.

I øvrigt synes jeg din holdning er fin, følger du den til ende findes vel kun en straf mulighed for alle overtrædelser - af med hovedet. Alle andre giver kun synderen mulighed for at gentage brøden. At skifte mening gælder ikke.

Så, når f.eks. Wideroe for år siden havarerer et fly på grund af pilotfejl i Nord Norge så er ledelse og alle piloter i Wideroe uduelige eller hvad ?

Er du på tynd is ?

Frem i lyset med hvad du har !

[Skunkworks]

I just have two questions:

1. Why did this procedure of "FO pays FC's salary" stop?

2. (off the subject, I know) I met a DAT FC who had FIVE stripes on the uniform, how do you qualify for that last stripe?


Edit: removed comment about possible link between income and number of stripes. I admit it was not very funny.

[Techman]

"earning so much money"

"I'm a FC with DAT and take home a bundle of money"

Hvor stammer de to citater fra?. Eller er det bare mig der ikke kan læse?.

Skunkwork, du skulle være stoppet ved spørgsmål nummer 1.

[Sabre Aviator]

RTO,

Jeg kunne have nævnt SAS eller Maersk ja selv Cimber som jeg kender rimeligt godt. Mig bekendt er der ingen fejlfri selskaber i denne branche. Jeg har absolut intet mod WF, tvært i mod, jeg ser dem som absolut kompetente på det de laver. Nok noget af det bedste Norge har på dette område.
Netop derfor blev de brugt i denne sammenligning.

Og det er netop pointen RTO, fordi en ledelse engang begår en fejl kan man sagtens ændre sig.
Du skrev det direkte modsatte om DAT, men måske misforstod jeg dig ? Dette gælder kun WF men ikke DAT ?
SVE skrev tidligere at han fandt at DAT havde ændret sig de sidste år, måske er der også ændret på disse områder. SVE lader til at være tæt på og orienteret men du skrev: " Jo mer jeg graver i emnet blant mine kolleger jo mer dritt dukker opp om DAT, kunne snart skrevet en liten bok om dette emnet"

Noget tyder på at du ved mere end SVE så kom nu frem med hvad du har.

[Hogg]

Yeah I hear u guys (DAT) are operating instead of a B727(us) to Oulu for us soon on behalf of DHl CPH/Got? Hope u guys enjoy the hospitality we recieved off the reception staff( female) in the Ramada;) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :cool: :p

Well worth the trek up there, but keep up our drinking reputation in the "saint Michael" pub wont u??(maybe not as theres only 2 of u) hope u do until we snatch the route again :cool:

indoor karting great too after a few pints of whatever

[ArcticCircle]

Skunkworks,

DAT gets swedish government contracts - wonder why...

I guess it`s in Sweden like it is in Norway - you put in a bid, and if you can do it for less money than the others, you`re the winner. The government is paying you for offering a service between A and B. If you tell them you can do it for zero kroner, they would most probably love you. The fact that your competition has a better product is, as far as I can see it, irrelevant. I might be wrong.........Am I?:confused:

On Aug 19. the Norwegian DOT will announce who is the takers of a number of routes in Norway. Two of the routes, Røros - Oslo and Fagernes - Oslo are already given to Widerøe and Coast Air respectively. That Arctic Air has operated Fagernes - Oslo for a while did not stop the DOT from offering the sector to Coast Air. Why? Coast Air claim they can do it for less money.

The question is: Can they really? According to a news flash on www.boarding.no the same Coast Air is in financial difficulties, partly because of the routes they were offered to operate on the Norwegian west coast three years ago when they swept Widerøe away from its base at Florø, on price.

Is this a healthy policy from the DOT? Hardly, if you ask me.

[Saint00]

People payed to work for DAT. If somebody pays to work. Do not blame the seller, blame the nobrain idiot who paid for it. The nobrain idiot will pay for it over and over agin and so will everyone else.

[Skunkworks]

SVE:
However we cannot blame the companies for doing this
Saint00:
Do not blame the seller

Well, that’s not quite the way I see it. You are saying; if pilots are desperate enough to pay to work - Take advantage of them!

Ok, fair enough, some people prefer this "laissez-faire" type of economy. But then I sincerely hope that you think that the pilots have the same right to take advantage of a desperate company in need of crew.

So when the day comes when DAT or any other company finds themselves short of pilots, then we should all just say “pay us twice as much or the fleet stays on the ground.”

Don’t you think it would be better if there was a mutual understanding between us to pay/demand a reasonable salary for the job that we do?




(Btw, I’m still wondering about those 5 stripes!)

[Empty Cruise]

I am amazed!

A DAT-bashing that (almost) died in less than 3 full pages... what is the world coming to :rolleyes: ?

To add to (and verify) the info given by Kopfschmetzen & SVE, all the FOTs that have been flying on the ATR have been or will be permanently employed. A "baglog" of FOT candidates will be trained, and after OCC is completed, they will also be employed on full time contract. Those FOTs still with the company from the BE90-FOT programme will transfer to the ATR this winter - on permanent contracts as well. All FOTs from the BE1900 programme are employed on permanent contracts as well.

It appears that DAT wanted to get to know people with 250 hrs. before they were put on a company-sponsored OCC. Fair enough - cause people have to earn their experience somewhere. If they were experienced (i.e. met standard requirements, 700 TT / 100 IFR / 40 IFR M/E PiC / Turbine experience), they would have been employed from day 1 on permanent contract.

So, in the end, all FOTs got what they wanted - job on a FAR25 A/C. Weather you pay up front or run around the SunAir hangar for 2 years - isn't the result the same?

It appears that some people get a good rant out of the FOT programme every time it is brought up. Good for you - takes out a lot of stress, doesn't it? Anyway, the FOT programme is not being re-instated - you may read whatever you like into this fact. But if it really WAS such a cash-cow, why then kill it? Maybe the airlines existence did not depend on it? Maybe everybody got fed up with listening to the holier-than-thou-crowd flinging inconsistent information & rumours through the air?

Anyway, unless people work for the company, I find it hard taking info from them on the subject seriously. I don't tell everybody else how SAS is being run - because I don't work there and don't know jack sh!t about it. People flying for SunAir don't explain the mysteries of Maersk operations to everybody else - for the same reason.

The difference is that some people know what they are informed about & stick to those subjects, others don't. This is a PROFESSIONAL pilots rumour network, gents! Professionals know when to say : yes / no / thanks for bringing it up, I really don't know, I'll look into it, one sec, please.

Could you imagine one pilot asking: "What's that step-down altitude again?" and the other replying: "I was here 5 years ago, back the it was..." or "I know somebody who says it is..." or "I have heard that it is...".

:confused: Professional :confused:

Stop the slandering, get the facts!

PS: The 5th stripe can be acquired for 650 mill. DKK :D

[captaink]

Instead of being

[Ole Brumm]

Empty Cruise:

"Stop the slandering, get the facts!

PS: The 5th stripe can be acquired for 650 mill. DKK"

Please help me get the facts straight here. 650 Mill. DKK is the net value of Danish Air Transport? Then surely the rumours of desperate cost cutting measures to save the company must be false!

[Sabre Aviator]

Hej Ole Brumm

Kan du uddybe:

"the rumours of desperate cost cutting measures to save the company "

Hvad er det for rygter du har hørt ?

[Ole Brumm]

Sorry Sabre, I want to hear about the 650 mill first.

[Sabre Aviator]

Ole Brumm

de 650 mill har jeg også meget svært ved at tro på, men det var heller ikke min påstand.... Flyflåden er næppe mere end 300 mil værd og er vel næppe betalt.

Der imod var du citeret direkte for det andet. Har du noget fornuftigt at komme med eller er dine bidrag som RTO tidligere bare varm luft ?

Mener du DAT opfører sig desparat som for eksempel som SAS, SC, Premiair, Coastair som fyrer piloter og andet personale eller desparat som Cimber og Maersk som fyrer og genansætter i hastig rækkefølge ?

Eller desparat som at ansætte og uddanne 12-15 nye ATR piloter som er det info jeg har fået af Chef piloten ?

Jeg står foran at skulle beslutte ansættelse i DAT så kom nu med det !

[Ole Brumm]

Sabre, I know you did not say anything about the 650 mill. I am trying to get Empty Cruise to explain that. He seems to be wery well informed!

Like I said, all I have is false rumours, nobody wants to listen to that anyway. They are not about hiring and firing.

About hiring and firing: The contract in Sweden should give new ATR jobs. I think they fired only 2 ATR pilots recently.

Concidering new job offers is usually easy at the moment, since they tend to come one at the time. Lucky you if you have good alternatives!

[Empty Cruise]

Hi Ole & Sabre,

The guy with the 5 stripes was Jesper :D The 5th stripe started as a joke: "I'm MD, chief pilot & own the aircraft - if I can't get a 5th stripe, who can"? The 5th stripe has been retired now, but that's another story. Anyway, Jesper was asked the same question about a year ago - how do I get that 5th stripe? The answer was prompt: "Let go of 650 mill. and it's all yours" :cool:

The "desperate cost-cutting measures" appears to be another of the wild geese... If you forecast stormy weather, you usually batten down the hatches, so people with vacation to spare were asked to take it then in stead of now, that's all. The 2 pilots laid off - come with a story of their own as well :rolleyes: .

Sabre, hope to see you down there soon (or in CPH 16/09) - if you need to have your fears stilled, drop a mail.

C U up there,
Empty

[Ole Brumm]

With: "rumours of desperate cost cutting measures", I was thinking of sharing of hotel rooms, crew put in flats with bedrooms for half of them, and a general threat that any expence over this will bring the company down.

They also have to pay for the full cost of any pilot error. :eek: :mad:

[Empty Cruise]

OK, here we go again :rolleyes:

I've been with the company for 1,5 years now and have never shared or heard of people sharing hotel rooms (unless they wanted to, which I frankly believe is there own business).

Putting people in flats with beds for only half or them? Where is that? ABZ? Not! HEL? Not! LIS? Not! SEN? Not! CDG? Not! AAL? Not! EBJ? Not! Am I missing some of our flats or do you know something that I don't?

The EBJ house has housed up to 6 people with 2 sharing a room, that is correct. But this was personnel with EBJ base, so frankly, how they stay there is not a company problem. Have you heard if Mr. O'Leary has provideded any of the non-Irish FR boys with a place to live - at their base? Well, neither have I, but that does not make me claim that FR let their pilots sleep on the street!

"A general threat"? I don't know about your company, Ole, but I have never heard threaths issued in DAT. Maybe I'm missing something (just the way I missed the thing with the apartments...). Unless yoiu work here & have heard or been subjected to threaths, I would show extreme caution in what I say about what happens in other companies.

"They have to pay the full cost for any pilot error"? Well, as I've concluded above, I'm missing much of what is going on in the company, but I have never recieved any bills myself. I know of only 1 bill being sent to a (former) employee, and that regarded gross neglect. If you cannot even read a 8-item checklist, I cannot feel sorry for you. But all the other "pilot errors" - nobody pays for them themselves - that is a downright lie!

Ole, my suggestion to you has been stated before, but apparently it needs saying again:

Stop the slandering - get the facts.

Unless you work for the company, I think you ought to keep hearsay to yourself. At any rate, it says more about you than it says about the company. And I think that no company (less the one you work for, of course) is worth tarnishing yourself over, is it?

Best regards,
Empty

[YAM]

Empty Cruise, tak for et godt og informativ indlæg. [Edit: jeg kan se at du postede et nyt indlæg 1 min før dette - for klarhedens skyld, så er det af den 16 august kl. 17:06 jeg referer til]

Jeg kan nu tildels forstå og acceptere DAT's motiv for deres måde at handle på. Og det er jo det gode ved debat - at udveksle synspunkter og evt. ændre dem hvis man bliver presenteret for gode argumenter. Det er vel hele formålet med et forum som PPRuNe. Derfor synes jeg ikke at det er rimeligt at sige at man ikke bør debatere noget som man ikke har 100% facts omkring. Hvordan skulle debaten så overhovedet begynde? Og hvis vi ikke kunne debatere, hvordan skulle dem der ikke viste 100% omkring emnet så blive oplyst?

Tilbage til DAT. Det er bare en skam at DAT's bevæggrund ikke har været meldt klart ud fra start (så havde DAT måske stået i et bedre lys og hele debaten undgået). Jeg synes også at det er uheldigt at kalde det pay for training eller hvilket synonym der nu er blevet brugt. Havde det ikke været mere klart for enhver hvis man havde valgt at kalde det en prøve periode eller lignende (hvis altså det hele tiden har været meningen at fuldtids ansætte folk efter deres timer var overstået og såfremt folk havde opført sig ordenligt).

Du virker til at være vel informeret, så kan og vil du også forklare hvorfor DAT er gået bort fra pay for training igen?

[Eurotrash]

OLeary does provide a place to the crews to sleep, its the cockpit after the last sector, no point going to wherever you call home.

And to you guys slagging off DAT.
Do you remember when you started flying? Any job to get into the business should be taken, if youve got a license surely you are old enough to decide to pay or not to pay!

Nothing wrong with a start on an ATR. Wish i had that luxery when i started.

Good Luck to you guys starting out, its a great life and career.

Saw an ATR 42 in Helsinki recently outside the DHL building, Greattttt colour scheme! Do you guys get the big bag of fruit from Airops too???

[Ole Brumm]

Empty Cruise:

With regard to sharing of hotel rooms and bedrooms in flats, I did not say always and everywhere, perhaps you would care to check it with your people before you present your "facts".


PS. When you tell me: "....I would show extreme caution in what I say about..." What is that? A form of advise?

[Empty Cruise]

Hi all,

YAM - point taken! Vi skal selvfølgelig debbatere frit, også selv om vi ikke sidder inde med 100% facts (og hvem gør iøvrigt det ;) ). Man bliver bare sådan lidt træt af stort set alle og enhver udtaler sig som om de var den endegyldige autoritet på lige emnet DAT - når de ikke arbejder her. Der er mange (og skal være plads til mange) holdninger til DAT - hvis folk så bare kunne forny historierne lidt fra gang til gang. Hvis folk siger "I DAT gør de sådan & sådan" - så lyder det da som om de faktisk ved hvad de taler om. Så en lidt mere afslappet tone ville være rart - f.eks. "Er det sandt at de i DAT gør..."?

Hvad der har været intentionen med FOT-programmet gør jeg mig ikke klog på - men jeg TROR at teksten til annoncen lød noget á lá "Suitable candidates will be offered full time employment after..." Om det så er en intention ved jeg ikke... er der nogen der har teksten ved hånden?

EUROTHRASH - ja, de bliver aldrig væk på parkeringspladsen :D. Vidste ikke at O'leary var i gavehumør - så kom jeg alligevel til at udtale mig skråsikkert om noget i et andet firma jeg ikke anede en sk!d om :) :o :)

OLE BRUMM - you didn't say anything to the contrary either. When you were here, you may well have experienced something along those lines, people here have told me - so sorry for not checking the facts before I posted. If you show caution or not is really your own choice, I just spoke for meself...

Brgds,
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[Fwd Wonder Cerebrum]

Empty: A question mark makes a rumour a question. Hvis folk siger "I DAT gør de sådan & sådan" - så lyder det da som om de faktisk ved hvad de taler om. Så en lidt mere afslappet tone ville være rart - f.eks. "Er det sandt at de i DAT gør..."?
I thought the PPRuNe forums were mainly for good old juicy "c-rumours", not questions. If you have questions or fancy a more "afslappet tone", try the Questions-forum. It is described as: "If you have a question for professional pilots please post it here. If it isn't a Rumour or News then this is where you will probably find it." Let's not make our Nordic forum into a dull forum similar to a fact-finding committee.:cool:

fwc

[Prince Buster]

It’s quite annoying that “Rikstrafiken” doesn’t take a stand against these kind of behaviour from DAT. From what I have heard their offer were at least 100 million lower then any other competitor.

Shoot me if I’m wrong.

:confused:

[Sabre Aviator]

Prince Buster

Du kan betragte dig selv som skudt !

I henhold til oplysningerne fra Svenska Flygbolag er den samlede Rikstraffik støtte på alle ruter på ca SEK 60.000.000 pr år inklusive Sveg, Torsby og vist en eller to destinationer mere.
Hvis DAT modtager, lad os sige alle 60.000.000, skulle næste udbyder ifølge dig have forlangt SEK 160.000.000.

Tror du selv at 10-15 FOT piloter kan bidrage med dette og synes du at de svenske skatteydere skulle have betalt 100.000.000 mere ?

Kan du følge mig ?

Hvordan synes du selv det går ?

[Empty Cruise]

Sabre er ikke helt galt på den :cool:

Hvad er der skammeligt i at komme med det laveste bud? Er det ikke det, der har skaffet os alle fordelene ved at leve i kapitalistiske samfund? Jeg forstår ikke at Rikstrafikken skulle have problemer med at tage lowest bidder (så længe buddet ikke er et dumping-forsøg, i.e. at udbyderen beviseligt vil tabe penge på det) - deres opgave er at fragte mennesker rundt i Norrlandet, ikke at supporte flag-carriers.

Jeg ta'r faktisk hatten af for at de har "cohones" til at vælge en udenlandsk udbyder :eek: :) .

Happy flying to all,
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[Bengt Engel]

hörrru sabre, jag ska gladeligen hjälpa dig att skjuta buster .......:D

och buster, hur kommer det sig att det var dig jag tog bowlinggreppet på??????

/Njut Bengan.