Unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders

[yap800]

Hello everybody.

I would like to make a thread for unemployed (as pilots) fATPL holders to come and post their story/journey and situations.
And also for everyone else to share their opinion on the matter also.

Often we hear that there are lots of unemployed fATPL holders and flight school grads but not many are posting on here and sharing/ updating us on their journey.

It's really important we hear the stories and journies of these people it seems only those who have managed to secure a job posting their stories on here and social media, youtube etc.

Please don't be afraid to post your story (Don't include your real name though) if you post on here since you are not using your real name its not like the employers are going to come on here and be able to identify some fATPL holder and blacklist you so don't be afraid.

Also if someone says something not nice about your post or calls your opinion stupid please dont stop posting or get upset. It could still be a valuable contribution that others could benefit from. Its important to hear from as many people as possible on this thread whether people agree or not.

(Hope this thread is in the appropriate forum if not please move it to the one which is more appropriate maybe it belongs in the wannabes training forum but I thought it belonged here?)

Thanks everyone, hope this helps some of us

[skysthelimit94]

I think it is a very interesting idea, as it can help people trying to start such as myself to see the possible bad side of things...

Looking forward to hearing from you guys!

P.

[parkfell]

What would be helpful is an indication as to how your training went, both in terms of the EASA exams, and the flying courses & flight tests. The acid test for those who aspire to multi crew operations is the MCC element and how you faired, as a simulator assessment is invariably used as part of the interview process.

[da42lover]

Hello everybody.

I finished my training last November with the MCC as the last step.
I couldnt find any jobs for many months and I find a position as customer service agent in MAD airport which is close to my home.
Could not afford pay to fly or any related program and I was completely down.
After many months I got a chance by pilotix to get two interviews (LOT and Stobart Air) I passed both of them and picked the second as it is more interesting and offered better benefits.
Ill start my type rating soon.

I must say that after studing for the EASA exams and putting a lot of money in the process and not getting any flying job was really really frustrating and it was a really bad period in my life...

I wish you guys all to find a paid flying job as soon as possible because not many people related to this industry can unerstand what we get through during and after the training.

Good luck to you all!

[Bryan_Air]

I did my licence a few years ago as a late starter after a good well paid career in another industry.

I was fortunate to get an airline job from the start and to be honest I hated it from about the second week. I am used to working in a polite, fair environment and the culture within the airline I was in was schoolboyish. Told what to do, when, where and how. Roster was mad, always a mess, and changes ALL the time when you have things going on in your life, hotels at the cheap end of the market. It was exciting first time flying the aircraft but once you have done it, its quite boring and the SIMs are always repeating the same thing, again and again but slightly different. Its a very repetitive job in a very sterile environment and I found it quite boring and something I got over pretty quick. Playing football with friends is much more fun and exciting.

I spent alot of time and money to do it which on one side was a complete waste but I wanted to do it and I did, so it was a success on the other side.

Am back in the other industry and I am much happier appreciating what I had even more.

Oh yes the money is very low for what you do. I think the younger you are the more you can put up with the BS, stress etc and the business case for the investment is more worthwhile as you can earn good £ quicker before family commitments come along and quality of life is more important.

[skysthelimit94]

Hello everybody.

I finished my training last November with the MCC as the last step.
I couldnt find any jobs for many months and I find a position as customer service agent in MAD airport which is close to my home.
Could not afford pay to fly or any related program and I was completely down.
After many months I got a chance by pilotix to get two interviews (LOT and Stobart Air) I passed both of them and picked the second as it is more interesting and offered better benefits.
Ill start my type rating soon.

I must say that after studing for the EASA exams and putting a lot of money in the process and not getting any flying job was really really frustrating and it was a really bad period in my life...

I wish you guys all to find a paid flying job as soon as possible because not many people related to this industry can unerstand what we get through during and after the training.

Good luck to you all!
Thanks for your story!

Could you tell me how many airlines did you apply for and what did you do to prepare for entry?

Kind regards.

P.

[gbotley]

I have to say that I think what Bryan_Air is saying - while a fair point from his own experiences - highlights simply how subjective a thread topic this is.

If it's what you've always wanted to do, as it was for me, then keep at the several applications but go in with your eyes open. You'll find something eventually i'm sure. Of course, that also depends on your experiences throughout flight school and your passes etc. I actually feared I'd not get anything having failed my CPL and partialled my IR but I'd say the hardest part from that is getting in front of the airline. Once you're there, or have a chat on the phone or whatever then I found they didn't really mind the slip ups as long as you had the explanations for them.

I do agree with what Bryan_Air is saying in some sense in that yes the job can be repetitive. Airliners tend to fly themselves most of the time and once you've flown the routes a few times you could - figuratively - fly them with your eyes closed. Then again, at my outfit no two days have been the same and I'm still absorbing new knowledge on the daily. There's always some sort of logistical challenge that makes it variable enough. It is very much a lifestyle you must marry yourself too but from my own personal (subjective) opinion, it has smashed expectations. I get fo fly for a carrier that, in my opinion, looks after its staff and the pay isn't all that bad. Pay is a topic which will forever have pilots moaning, as the media will clearly highlight, but as a new starter I'm content with what I get, where i'm based, the aircraft I fly and the overall day-to-day.

I applied to close to 20 airlines, heard back from about 4 of those and started my type rating about 9 months after I completed my MCC at the first airline I interviewed with. At one point I feared I'd not find the money to revalidate my IR as I was somewhat struggling to pay the loans back as it was, but thankfully didn't come to that. My best bit of advice is cater your CVs to aviation and focus on attributes each of them airlines are looking for. You'll find all of that on their websites of course.

All the best -- whether you're an fATPL or an aspiring cadet :-)

For those asking:

86% ATPL Average, 1st Time Passes
2nd Series, 1st Attempt CPL
1st Series, 2nd Attempt IR
Pass at MCC (no mark downs, or "Slows" as some schools put it)

[da42lover]

Thanks for your story!

Could you tell me how many airlines did you apply for and what did you do to prepare for entry?

Kind regards.

P.


I applied to 23 airlines where I meet the requirements published on their websites. 5 of them came back to me just telling me to patiently wait.
For preparing to potential interviews I was using PILAPT tests available online such as flightdeckfriends and similars.
I applied and got accepted in pilotix program and they got me a spot to two interviews (on of which I applied myself but they never came back to me) that I both passed with materials and tests that they provided me with.

[pdyy]

Anybody care to explain what pilotix is?
I've heard of it on a few occasions, but whenever I google it, I only get irrelevant results.

[James Ken McIntosh]

looking at the aviation market

is this the end of the hiring peak and bad times are coming?

or

a small blip?

what are your thoughts?

[Banana Joe]

I am no economy expert, but I think that until Qatar 2022 there will still be recruitment.
​​​​​​Brexit and the 737MAX issue raised uncertainties in Europe, but I still see lots of jobs offer in the rest of the world. If you are lucky to be able to work in the US, you will get a job as long as you have a heart bit.
I reckon at the beginning of 2020 we will see again be opportunities and Ryanair will start recruitment again.

[RHSandLovingIt]

Anybody care to explain what pilotix is?
I've heard of it on a few occasions, but whenever I google it, I only get irrelevant results.
Apparently some sort of recruitment agency that does NOT run or endorse P2F (if you believe the website)...

Also, they have rebranded to "myPilotix"... Try googling that ;)

Note: never used, nor do I endorse them in any way

[FlyingEngineer]

I did my licence a few years ago as a late starter after a good well paid career in another industry.

I was fortunate to get an airline job from the start and to be honest I hated it from about the second week. I am used to working in a polite, fair environment and the culture within the airline I was in was schoolboyish. Told what to do, when, where and how. Roster was mad, always a mess, and changes ALL the time when you have things going on in your life, hotels at the cheap end of the market. It was exciting first time flying the aircraft but once you have done it, its quite boring and the SIMs are always repeating the same thing, again and again but slightly different. Its a very repetitive job in a very sterile environment and I found it quite boring and something I got over pretty quick. Playing football with friends is much more fun and exciting.

I spent alot of time and money to do it which on one side was a complete waste but I wanted to do it and I did, so it was a success on the other side.

Am back in the other industry and I am much happier appreciating what I had even more.

Oh yes the money is very low for what you do. I think the younger you are the more you can put up with the BS, stress etc and the business case for the investment is more worthwhile as you can earn good £ quicker before family commitments come along and quality of life is more important.

Certainly the correct decision to return to your previous employment for everyone’s sake.

Having started my career in Engineering and moved into commercial flying I certainly prefer the later. Now over ten years flying have no regrets but it’s what you make of it that counts.

Talking to to a colleague the other day an interesting observation we have made is people who proclaim to be “bored/unmotivated” etc are actually often struggling with the operation and use being bored as a kind of smoke screen to cover over some pretty average performances..

[MCDU2]

Certainly the correct decision to return to your previous employment for everyone’s sake.

Having started my career in Engineering and moved into commercial flying I certainly prefer the later. Now over ten years flying have no regrets but it’s what you make of it that counts.

Talking to to a colleague the other day an interesting observation we have made is people who proclaim to be “bored/unmotivated” etc are actually often struggling with the operation and use being bored as a kind of smoke screen to cover over some pretty average performances..


"Bored, oh no one ever told me that before, bare face lying to the captain, lack of interest, unwillingness to do any amount of research without being spoonfed the answer, lots of deflection off topic when tough questions are being put to them, lack of personal responsibility". Unfortunately traits that are becoming all to common in the RHS these days. Many would spend the turnaround on their phone if allowed to. Most never take out a manual in the cruise and wonder how come they don't know the Part A and B. Most are happy to troll out the same script as a brief which quickly unravels when they ask you if you have any questions and they are unable to deal with the necessary. Still these heroes all insist that they are ready for command. Thankfully the checking and training departments are thinning them out. On a brighter note there are still the shining stars that come through flight schools as well which make for a pleasant day and you are only to happy to offer guidance to.

[Meester proach]

I did my licence a few years ago as a late starter after a good well paid career in another industry.

I was fortunate to get an airline job from the start and to be honest I hated it from about the second week. I am used to working in a polite, fair environment and the culture within the airline I was in was schoolboyish. Told what to do, when, where and how. Roster was mad, always a mess, and changes ALL the time when you have things going on in your life, hotels at the cheap end of the market. It was exciting first time flying the aircraft but once you have done it, its quite boring and the SIMs are always repeating the same thing, again and again but slightly different. Its a very repetitive job in a very sterile environment and I found it quite boring and something I got over pretty quick. Playing football with friends is much more fun and exciting.

I spent alot of time and money to do it which on one side was a complete waste but I wanted to do it and I did, so it was a success on the other side.

Am back in the other industry and I am much happier appreciating what I had even more.

Oh yes the money is very low for what you do. I think the younger you are the more you can put up with the BS, stress etc and the business case for the investment is more worthwhile as you can earn good £ quicker before family commitments come along and quality of life is more important.


you've got to be a troll. Or very naive. Or very entitled.
i can’t work out which

[Banana Joe]

Can't find this Pilotix thing even with Google.

[Rocket61]

Does pilotix charge anything for pilots ?

[gulliBell]

Hey guys....let me just shoot the breeze a bit here with some blunt observations. But first, congratulations to those who have reached the end of their initial training pipeline, got their fATPL, and are "job ready" enough in search of their first piloting job.

I'm an ATPL with almost 30 years experience. My first piloting job was as a co-pilot in an IFR operation. I paid for all my own training up to CPL. IR and initial ME type rating was paid for by the employer. I've never earned $1000/day (although some of my colleagues do). Now here's the rub. My mum had the gutters on her roof replaced the other day. The guy who did it had no formal qualifications, had made no investment in his training, required no prior experience in any particular field, doesn't need to keep a medical, works his own hours when and where he wants. In other words, about exactly the opposite to what a new pilot starting out in a flying career is expected to do, and with virtually no hope of earning the sort of money you can earn by gluing a bit of roof gutter together. After expenses for the materials required for the job he earned $1000 for less than a days work. Only consequence for any deficiency in his work being a leaking gutter. No big deal. Any deficiency in your work as a pilot, well, the possible consequences are obvious.

My boy is thinking about what he wants to do when he finishes school. I'm encouraging him to fixing gutters, and discouraging him from any thought of being a pilot.

Whatever you choose to do, apply your best effort and hopefully the rewards will come. If you want to earn a decent living, with a lifestyle of your own choosing, without the burden of onerous responsibilities, learning to use a caulking gun might be a better option than learning to fly a plane. Good luck to you all.

[Bryan_Air]

I am just giving my experience, tbh I would probably say a bit entitled having experienced better terms and condition beforehand.

Yes, I was average and I struggled with the general operation, I felt contained and couldnt have time off when I wanted and had to turn up and do what your told most of the time. You have to absolutely love every minute of it and when you dont it becomes a total drag, constant checkins and yes sir pls sir etc, conversations all the same pilot bids, roster, flight pay etc.

Not bored as in, nothing to do, fed up of it would be more accurate. Once you have flown something big I just found it very very repetitive and you need to like that mindset, it didnt work for me and I got sick of it.

The whole industry as a pilot is very hard graft/responsibilities work etc and your on your beck and call especially when responsibilities come along its a struggle to manage and caused problems at home, its clear to see why a lot of single people working there or as a short term career. If you look at TCX possibly about to fail and BA at the other end, its such a hard operating environment to subject your working life and family to.

gulli Bell makes a good point, as a pilot you will only make a wage and what you earn is set out to the penny. I have seen a chap I grew up with start his own business and he can make over 250k a year through his company and works on average 3-4 days a week of his choosing, it took him over 10 years to get there but he is in a good spot and he is in early 40s. Nice house, kids in private school and only travels for (NICE) holidays as works locally.

[yap800]

Thanks for the replies guys - it seems you have all been successful which is awesome.

So far nobody has come on here and said
"I completed training 5 years ago and never got a flying job despite applying to every airline and flight instructor position, I'm now in massive debt and considering whether I should give up and stop wasting money keeping my ratings current"

Do you there just aren't that many people in that position out there?
Or are they just not in this forum, or in denial and don't want to post and admit it (even though its anonymous)?

[Banana Joe]

Does pilotix charge anything for pilots ?
Depending on your level of experience. For me it would be around 600 euro/year. I can get interviews without their help so I don't see where they exactly stand.

[Bryan_Air]

@ yap 800, you dont need to pay for any of these schemes such as Kura, pilotix, wings alliance etc, they are for mugs! You can do it yourself by researching online etc, go to one of the free pilot events and save yourself the money or read the posts here, most pilots help each other. Its a well trodden path airline recruitment, its quite straight forward really and just differs a little on each airline.

The only ones that dont get jobs are the ones that give up. I have met a few that never got an airline job who wanted one and they go back to what they did before, if you cant get one at home then you need to go abroad and do one of the eastern european etc ones then come home with experience etc. You cant really speak your mind and say I was robbed by an integrated scheme because they will stop you getting a job etc so people who dont succeed would normally keep it to themselves. You are guaranteed nothing in this industry except you will be messed around and expected to be the most flexible of people and pay for most things yourself including hotels.

If I had my time over again, I wouldnt do it to be honest, 3 years of my life and 80k I spent maybe but then if I hadnt of done it I would of wished I had done it so catch 22 or I would of liked to have done it in the 80s or 90s. TCX going down the pan now just shows the very hard market conditions you work in, BA highest paid on average I think and they strike, Avanti and some other airlines all gone bust recently, even Ryanair saying a year off unpaid leave or we will sack you. TCX charged via Iago £750 for the interview, what other industry does that to attend an interview? There is clearly alot of over capacity in the market hence all these airlines going bust and bases closing and I think people fly less than they used to now.

Pilots are expected to just suck it all up as BAU while terms and conditions deteriorate further.....

[redsnail]

Yap - many have not made it unfortunately. A combination of bad timing and/or crap at the interview/sim means they haven't nailed the interview. The reason why they're not posting here is they have drifted away. Don't under estimate the numbers. There are a lot who've fallen by the wayside.

The bad timing is worth bearing in mind. If you finish your training during a down town, then your IR skills degrade very quickly. Keeping your IR skills is very expensive.

[P40Warhawk]

Yap - many have not made it unfortunately. A combination of bad timing and/or crap at the interview/sim means they haven't nailed the interview. The reason why they're not posting here is they have drifted away. Don't under estimate the numbers. There are a lot who've fallen by the wayside.

The bad timing is worth bearing in mind. If you finish your training during a down town, then your IR skills degrade very quickly. Keeping your IR skills is very expensive.

Yes absolutely true.
I finished in 2013. The market was horrendous.

Send out like 350 applications in the first year. All custimized to the particular airline I was applying for so not just copy paste. I only received a handful generic e mails back stating they are looking for pilots with experience or they were not looking for pilots at the time. Very very depressing, but I decided to apply for a job as FA. Got myself a job as an FA in a small operator which was flying the Dash for a big European Airline. After some time I moved to that mainline as FA on Airbus. Saddly they went bust.

In meanwhile I kept applying. My first assessments I had in 2017. Saddly not succesful or succesful but still didnt get the job. I was about to give up until I got another shot beginning of 2018. There I got the job on a B737.

Worked in that company until 1.5 week ago and moved straight onto my new employer flying again B737.

I now have some useful experience and I get contacted now by different companies and recruiters if I am interested to fly for them.
also I passed an assessment in another company a few weeks ago. I was in the hard position to decide for whom I want to work for.

All I can say from my experience. Do whatever needed to get your foot between the door. Once you gathered 500 multicrew hours, doors will open, but also networking. Very important. I got my present job because of an friend of mine who got me in contact with this company.

I have another assessment coming up in another company also.

Believe in a good outcome and do a lot of networking. Once you have your first break life will get much better.

Good luck to all the ones looking for the first break.

[Climb150]

Thanks for the replies guys - it seems you have all been successful which is awesome.

So far nobody has come on here and said
"I completed training 5 years ago and never got a flying job despite applying to every airline and flight instructor position, I'm now in massive debt and considering whether I should give up and stop wasting money keeping my ratings current"

Do you there just aren't that many people in that position out there?
Or are they just not in this forum, or in denial and don't want to post and admit it (even though its anonymous)?
A person I know well went to Dubai to do the Flydubai type rating with possible interview at end. He was sure he would get it. He made a mess of his checkride and didn't even get the interview. He gave up and owed over 100k pounds.

[yap800]

Yes absolutely true.
I finished in 2013. The market was horrendous.
Send out like 350 applications in the first year. All custimized to the particular airline I was applying for so not just copy paste. I only received a handful generic e mails back stating they are looking for pilots with experience or they were not looking for pilots at the time. Very very depressing, but I decided to apply for a job as FA. Got myself a job as an FA in a small operator which was flying the Dash for a big European Airline. After some time I moved to that mainline as FA on Airbus. Saddly they went bust.
In meanwhile I kept applying. My first assessments I had in 2017. Saddly not succesful or succesful but still didnt get the job. I was about to give up until I got another shot beginning of 2018. There I got the job on a B737.

P40 Warhawk, thank you for sharing your story, and well done for hanging in there and making it happen.

Do you think your experience as a flight attendent helped to get the job and show employers that you were still trying to keep in touch and not give up?

Would you mind sharing how and where you trained e.g. modular/integrated wich school (I'm not going to hijack this thread with this question but good to have context in relation to your story), how you performed during training etc?

What alternative ways of building experience did you look for?
did you apply for flight instructor jobs also?

Also I notice your location is germany is this where you are from or where you live at the moment - where are you from btw?

[yap800]

A person I know well went to Dubai to do the Flydubai type rating with possible interview at end. He was sure he would get it. He made a mess of his checkride and didn't even get the interview. He gave up and owed over 100k pounds.

Thank you for sharing this story,
do you know where/what school and when this person trained integrated modular etc?
how long between finishing training and getting the type rating with possible interview at the end?

After the person gave up, what then?
did this person ever keep trying to get opportunities or just gave up completely and never tried to keep rating current or get more opportunities?
What are they doing now instead?
Any chance of asking them to come on here and share more of their story?

And how about you, are you a pilot right now or in training or aspiring to start or doing something else?

[P40Warhawk]

P40 Warhawk, thank you for sharing your story, and well done for hanging in there and making it happen.

Do you think your experience as a flight attendent helped to get the job and show employers that you were still trying to keep in touch and not give up?

Would you mind sharing how and where you trained e.g. modular/integrated wich school (I'm not going to hijack this thread with this question but good to have context in relation to your story), how you performed during training etc?

What alternative ways of building experience did you look for?
did you apply for flight instructor jobs also?

Also I notice your location is germany is this where you are from or where you live at the moment - where are you from btw?

I keep in middle where I am from but yes I do live in Germany ;) .

Started training in Baltic Aviation Academy. Integrated. We were first Ab Initio ATPL Students of BAA. At that time they only had ONE C152, but soon got 3 Tecnam P2002JF's and later one C172SP G1000. The MEP was rented from another school.

I was not much of an Ace, but I passed all exams and checkrides in first attempt. That was also my goal. Especially at that time there were some airlines where you can only apply when you have only first time passes.

Graduated in 2013. Nothing possible to get a job.

If Airlines see FA experience as a good experience is hard to say. I enjoyed the job a lot. Had many nice colleagues and I am very thankful I obtained also experience behind the cockpit door and the interaction with the passengers. A lot of useful skills there.

In meanwhile still nothing happening. I made the decision to go for self sponsored TR B737, which I also obtained in BAA. Straight after finishing I had an assessment which I sadly didnt pass. 1 year later via someone I know in my former company I got in that company and obtained around 500 on the B737 and now in my second company.

[magicmick]

Good morning all, happened to look at PPRuNe for the first time in a long time and saw this thread and decided that I would contribute my ‘warts and all’ story.

I’ll start by saying that redsnail is entirely right, there are an awful lot of people who have given up and those people have drifted away from PPRuNe so you will be unlikely to hear anything from them.

I started training modular in 2006 when recruitment opportunities were reasonable and qualified in 2008 as the world went into recession (great timing). I did it all with my own money and no loans needed.

My training record is first time passes in all written exams with 93% average and 2nd series 1st attempt passes in CPL and MEIR and straight passes in MCC and JOC.

I was fortunate enough to get called for assessment at Ryanair but made a complete pigs ear of the sim check and no surprise got the PFO email from them.

As a responsible(ish) adult with a family to support I went back to my previous life as an engineer which provided for my family while I kept everything in date and tried to find that elusive first flying job. I would have loved to have instructed but there were no instructor jobs going and instructor salary would not have provided for my family.

Later I was also fortunate enough to be invited for assessments with Stobart and Logan, unfortunately I was out of the country on a family holiday for the Stobart assessment and the day before the Logan assessment I woke up with D&V which was the start of a virus that laid me up for three days so was unable to attend. Despite my continued pleas to Stobart and Logan and a Dr letter confirming to Logan that I was genuinely unfit to travel I was never given alternative dates for assessment.

Earlier this year just before I was going to renew my medical and IR, I was involved in a fall at home that broke a couple of bones in my foot. I had to wear the ‘boot of shame’ for a couple of months after the fall until I could walk properly again. Even after I could walk again my foot was nowhere near strong enough to get my lapsed medical back or cope with sustained asymmetric flight.

This brings me up to now where I am in a position where I could renew my lapsed medical and IR but having witnessed the collapse of Thomas Cook and Aigle Azur plus Adria are on the brink of collapse (their aviation authority have given them one week to sort their finances out before their operating licence is removed) also I do not believe that Flybe are out of the woods plus RYR are telling pilots to either take 12 months unpaid leave, relocate to less popular bases or face job cuts.

When you add in uncertainty over Brexit regarding freedom of movement and employment within the EU for UK nationals combined with several respected economic think tanks warning of another imminent global recession, I have come to the very tough decision that to put myself through medical and IR renewal and staying reasonably current would simply be throwing good money after bad.

I am still working as an aerospace technical consultant which pays well, is commutable from home and the people that I work with are pleasant enough but the work itself does not inspire or fulfil me in any way.

I have tried not to be too downbeat and I do not regret training as I have no debt and have continued to provide for my family throughout the process.

I genuinely wish everyone currently seeking employment or currently training nothing but success in their endeavours and hope that if you make it then it’s all that you hope it to be.

Regards,

Mike

[bulldog89]

Just to be clear: RYR is threatening pilots to force them to move to one of their subsidiaries (with reduced pay of course) to reduce costs even more, not because they don't need pilots anymore...

[Bryan_Air]

Thanks for sharing your views magicmick, flying really isnt that glamorous and its a slog of a job. Its a bit like the emperor has no clothes....

Disgusting news from RYR, MOL probably a billionaire asking his staff to 'apply' for a year off unpaid leave, the guy has no soul!

Welcome to aviation!

[magicmick]

To add even more fuel to the fire, Adria have now filed for bankruptcy and XL in France have suspended all flights, I hope that this is the last of it but I’m not convinced. Definitely not a good time to be looking for flying jobs as a low hours recently qualified candidate. Difficult times ahead.

[skysthelimit94]

Good morning all, happened to look at PPRuNe for the first time in a long time and saw this thread and decided that I would contribute my ‘warts and all’ story.

I’ll start by saying that redsnail is entirely right, there are an awful lot of people who have given up and those people have drifted away from PPRuNe so you will be unlikely to hear anything from them.

I started training modular in 2006 when recruitment opportunities were reasonable and qualified in 2008 as the world went into recession (great timing). I did it all with my own money and no loans needed.

My training record is first time passes in all written exams with 93% average and 2nd series 1st attempt passes in CPL and MEIR and straight passes in MCC and JOC.

I was fortunate enough to get called for assessment at Ryanair but made a complete pigs ear of the sim check and no surprise got the PFO email from them.

As a responsible(ish) adult with a family to support I went back to my previous life as an engineer which provided for my family while I kept everything in date and tried to find that elusive first flying job. I would have loved to have instructed but there were no instructor jobs going and instructor salary would not have provided for my family.

Later I was also fortunate enough to be invited for assessments with Stobart and Logan, unfortunately I was out of the country on a family holiday for the Stobart assessment and the day before the Logan assessment I woke up with D&V which was the start of a virus that laid me up for three days so was unable to attend. Despite my continued pleas to Stobart and Logan and a Dr letter confirming to Logan that I was genuinely unfit to travel I was never given alternative dates for assessment.

Earlier this year just before I was going to renew my medical and IR, I was involved in a fall at home that broke a couple of bones in my foot. I had to wear the ‘boot of shame’ for a couple of months after the fall until I could walk properly again. Even after I could walk again my foot was nowhere near strong enough to get my lapsed medical back or cope with sustained asymmetric flight.

This brings me up to now where I am in a position where I could renew my lapsed medical and IR but having witnessed the collapse of Thomas Cook and Aigle Azur plus Adria are on the brink of collapse (their aviation authority have given them one week to sort their finances out before their operating licence is removed) also I do not believe that Flybe are out of the woods plus RYR are telling pilots to either take 12 months unpaid leave, relocate to less popular bases or face job cuts.

When you add in uncertainty over Brexit regarding freedom of movement and employment within the EU for UK nationals combined with several respected economic think tanks warning of another imminent global recession, I have come to the very tough decision that to put myself through medical and IR renewal and staying reasonably current would simply be throwing good money after bad.

I am still working as an aerospace technical consultant which pays well, is commutable from home and the people that I work with are pleasant enough but the work itself does not inspire or fulfil me in any way.

I have tried not to be too downbeat and I do not regret training as I have no debt and have continued to provide for my family throughout the process.

I genuinely wish everyone currently seeking employment or currently training nothing but success in their endeavours and hope that if you make it then it’s all that you hope it to be.

Regards,

Mike
I genuinely wish you luck! You have been very unlucky and you deserve that job!

Best of luck!

[magicmick]

Thank-you so much for your kind words. In many ways I have been lucky in that I am healthy, I have a wonderful wife and son, I have a well paid job that isn’t the job that I dreamed of and doesn’t enthuse or inspire me but it allows me to provide for my family, pay for my son to attend a better school than my wife and I ever went to and give him the opportunities and education that we never had. I also live in a nice area with no debts outstanding on the house or anywhere else, I drive a reasonable car and have a great circle of friends. The only piece missing is the flying job that would make everything complete, but as many people have pointed out, it’s just a job and after a period of time it would become just day to day work with it’s bad points as well as good points. I do not regret flying training and if I had not trained I would probably have tortured myself with ‘what if’ questions for the rest of my life. I am not bitter from the experience and I would never tell anyone not to train or to give up their dream, I truly hope that the dark days for aviation lift soon and that those that are searching for their first flying job now and those that are currently training enjoy every success.

[yap800]

@ yap 800,
You cant really speak your mind and say I was robbed by an integrated scheme because they will stop you getting a job etc so people who dont succeed would normally keep it to themselves. You are guaranteed nothing in this industry except you will be messed around and expected to be the most flexible of people and pay for most things yourself including hotels.
...

I think one of if not the most important points and something I had slight hope this thread could change :(
But they dont have to Identify themselves on here so can't they just tell their story but not share their face name or exact details -

Its strange (maybe annoying if they are just choosing not to share this on purpose - sorry guys) that I cant even find one or a few L3/CTC OAA/CAE FTE grads saying "I didnt get a flying job for 5 years and am now crippled by debt" why won't they tell their story if they can do it anonymously?
(granted it wont have the same effect anonymously as its less provable/believable but still its a usual thing for people to write about an outcome that has been bad for them people do this for other things like product reviews places they stay restaurants etc)

Do you think that on this forum, we can help to encourage these people to share their story, even if only anonymously?

@ yap 800, you dont need to pay for any of these schemes such as Kura, pilotix, wings alliance etc, they are for mugs! You can do it yourself by researching online etc, go to one of the free pilot events and save yourself the money or read the posts here, most pilots help each other. Its a well trodden path airline recruitment, its quite straight forward really and just differs a little on each airline.
.

Free pilot events - I will have to look into this maybe this is a key thing that I didn't research, thank you.
Ah yes that it true - I notice the wings alliance schools you can just contact each school and organise it yourself - maybe the "wings alliance" etc is them trying to make a brand by joining so that they can maybe get placements and compete with the big integrated schools?
@ yap 800,

The only ones that dont get jobs are the ones that give up. I have met a few that never got an airline job who wanted one and they go back to what they did before, if you cant get one at home then you need to go abroad and do one of the eastern european etc ones then come home with experience etc.
r.....

Thank you - do you think hanging in there a long time is key to success - how long usually before employers think that you are too long out of training (despite keeping everything current and even an aviation related job?)

you mean sometimes if they cant get a job soon they just give up?
eastern european ones to get experience? you mean airlines or training schools?
Thank you there were a lot of valuable points in that post

[parkfell]

This THREAD is starting to go around in circles. Undemanded pitch, yaw, and roll has commenced.

1. Those who obtained a licence and didn’t do well during the training are the most likely not to be employed by an airline. If they stayed in aviation, then instructing is a possible option. Or ground job?
Very few are likely to admit that they failed to put in the necessary effort, and tell all on pprune.

2. Those who have a passion and are medically fit to fly, will succeed. It might take a while, but succeed they will.
I know one Virgin 747-400 Captain who told me in 1998 that he had 17 (seventeen) flying jobs before joining Virgin. Started instructing and worked his way up.

3. The critical requirement is PASSION, together with a significant amount of determination, forgoing much to focus on only one thing. Jumping through the series of hoops before crossing the finishing line.
The analogy I used is joining the church; you need to believe in GOD.

4. Timing is of the essence. Right place at the right time often plays a large part in getting that lucky break.

5. Market forces. Supply and demand. We are seeing a shift at the moment with the demise of some operators.

6. The better junior birdmen will succeed. The weaker ones will die on the vine. Natural selection in play.

The cyclical nature of aviation (7 years) is a fact of life. Choose aviation as an occupation wisely.

[bulldog89]

3. The critical requirement is PASSION.

MONEY, the more the better.

[P40Warhawk]

MONEY, the more the better.

Money is an important factor as in most cases you have to pay your first rating.

I also had to pay for my first rating. Nevertheless price was kinda ok.

Nowadays almost none of airlines pay your rating if you are a rookie. And if they do, there is a bond which is of course understandable. Usually they subtract money from your salary for a certain time so all in all you still pay for it yourself.

Anyway I got my first job through networking. Very important factor. In meanwhile I just started at my second employer a few weeks ago and have a few more options as well.

If you get in and obtain your experience, say 500 hrs multicrew ops, then you move on pretty quick.

I fly B737 ACMI ops and right now I am enjoying my off time at the pool on a tropical island.

Of course I admit that I also had dark times. I was about to give up also, but once you are in, you are in. Hangin there ladies and gents. When you are in you know you made the right choice.

[parkfell]

MONEY, the more the better.
You are quite correct that without adequate funding, the training will not occur.

You can however have all the money in the world, it doesn’t mean you will issued with a licence or gain employment.

Without the right qualities you can forget it. That includes “passion”; that overwhelming desire to get into the RHS.
Simple.

[vp89]

Thanks for the replies guys - it seems you have all been successful which is awesome.

So far nobody has come on here and said
"I completed training 5 years ago and never got a flying job despite applying to every airline and flight instructor position, I'm now in massive debt and considering whether I should give up and stop wasting money keeping my ratings current"

Do you there just aren't that many people in that position out there?
Or are they just not in this forum, or in denial and don't want to post and admit it (even though its anonymous)?

Yap,
I finished my flight training six years ago, fortunately without any debts. I have applied to numerous companies, even attended interviews at the same companies for couple of times during this six year period. Revalidate my ratings every year. And still nothing - fail final interviews usually. It looks recruiters do not like me. But having a backup plan is a good idea and allows me to develop myself in other topic. And most important!!! Telling everyone else (apart of aviation industry) that you are a pilot still drops their jaw and opens many doors.

As couple of people said before, piloting is not necessary very interesting job, unless you enter flight testing industry. From the money perspective, there are plenty of jobs requiring decision making skills (that you as a pilot possess) that would allow you to earn much more than pilots do. Just open your mind.

All the best ;)

[P40Warhawk]

Yap,
I finished my flight training six years ago, fortunately without any debts. I have applied to numerous companies, even attended interviews at the same companies for couple of times during this six year period. Revalidate my ratings every year. And still nothing - fail final interviews usually. It looks recruiters do not like me. But having a backup plan is a good idea and allows me to develop myself in other topic. And most important!!! Telling everyone else (apart of aviation industry) that you are a pilot still drops their jaw and opens many doors.

As couple of people said before, piloting is not necessary very interesting job, unless you enter flight testing industry. From the money perspective, there are plenty of jobs requiring decision making skills (that you as a pilot possess) that would allow you to earn much more than pilots do. Just open your mind.

All the best ;)

If you fail the final interview then maybe an idea to go to interview training. Or do more research about aviation interviews.
I did do research and found many questions. Then find for yourself answers how you would answer them.

But those trainings might help. Because the rest you seem to do ok then.

Dont give up and improve your weeknesses. There are techniques. I did and managed to pass interviews this way.

[Bryan_Air]

CANT POST LINKS SO SPELT IT TO SEARCH

vp89 try this for final interviews AIRLINE PREP CO UK or go to a local Uni and and join their career fares. Plenty of schools, colleges offer free interviewing at graduation time in particular. Practice at home at the kitchen table with a suit on so ur relaxed and comfortable with friends and family, write your answers out for questions etc. There is some technical book that everyone has, cant remember the name of it, read that ace pilot technical maybe or similar name.

yap800 here is free pilot event: PILOT CAREERS LIVE

Same as anything in life if you quit you defo wont get it, ideally you should get a job within 1 or 2 renewals. I still keep my licence and renewed my IR a while back, am rusty, takes time and money to keep it current at £350 an hr, even a solicitor doesnt charge that much!

I will do everything in my power to stop my children to pursue this career, I would be very disappointed if they did want to do it, as I have seen the chaos and instability it creates and I dont want to deal with that in retirement!

[parkfell]

CANT POST LINKS SO SPELT IT TO SEARCH

I will do everything in my power to stop my children to pursue this career, I would be very disappointed if they did want to do it, as I have seen the chaos and instability it creates and I dont want to deal with that in retirement!

I am curious. What was the appeal in the first place to embark on this occupation?
Only BA being LHR based gives stability. The roster style however is something you need to adapt to.

[Andyh009]

About how much do medical and Ir renewals cost?

[Bryan_Air]

@parkfell mix of childhood dream/early mid life crisis/grass is greener....

@andyh009 medical annual cost of £200-300 and IR £400- well £3,000 (if you let a school rip you off), can alternate between SIM and aircraft each year and sim often cheaper. As always shop around.....

[Meester proach]

I can’t quite work out this thread.

people who’ve spent a fortune learning to fly saying , “ actually there are many other things pay better “. Is this just bitterness or was getting into flying only to earn a “ reasonable “ salary ? If so your motivation was way off. If money is where it’s at do ^^^^ what he said and fix gutters - sounds really exciting and for filling doesn’t it ?

A lot of pilots “ self select “ then spent an obscene amount on training TR etc. Bear in mind, you may also the tests but you may not ah e the personality a company wants . That being said I’ve noticed more pilots who don’t fit the “ stable extrovert “ persona sneaking into aviation.

[Captain-Random]

I started flying at 16 And finished all my training at 24 with first time flight test passes and a low 80’s average pass mark on the ATPL’s including 3 failures.

£70k & 100% self funded the training by working 70-90 hour weeks over 3 jobs.

3 months later I was shotdown in flames at a Ryanair interview after lying about passing all my exams first time over the phone (not sorry I did it, who wants to be assessed by an admin person on the phone from Amsterdam?)

Another 3 months went by and I had an interview for the Jet2 pilot apprentice. Passed then interview no problem but messed up the sim. My fault, but I didn’t have the cash to pay for sim prep

After another 3 months of no joy and listening to “oh my neighbours grandson went to CTC and now he’s got a job with EasyJet” I left the UK with £3k in my pocket and went travelling for, what was supposed to be, 6 months which turned into the best 2 years of my life in New Zealand. I was offered visa sponsorship in a non flying role but turned it down to come home and restart my job search.

After 10 months back in the UK I finally got my break and now I fly Turbo props for an airline in the UK.

I know of a few training mates who are still unemployed 5 years after qualifying.

The main reasons why is because they’re:
not prepared to move away from their hometown
not prepared to take a pay cut
not prepared to flying anything less than a 737
family life has taken over the dream

If you have the passion you’ll get there. The reason why so many succeed is because others can’t be bothered to put the effort in which leaves more opportunities for those who can.

[Sleeve Wing]

I've been in the flying business all my life and, seeing the wriggling that you young guys are having to go through these days, I would hate to part of it today.

My career started with failing an RAF interview. It was at the time of the Duncan Sandys White paper. They call them SDRs now. It was the first real failure I'd had. I was a (then) state grammar school lad who had played a decent game of rugby, achieved good exam results and helped out at the local airfield.
I had to get a job as it was too late to go to uni that year, stayed in it and hated it.
I was actually doing a bit of Auster flying with a neighbour and he never ceased prodding me to try again but I was in my late teens and just didn't want to fail again.
Later the Royal Navy were advertising for pilots. I still had the PASSION and applied in the December. I was more PREPARED this time and, after the hoops, was in uniform by April !
I then fully trained, got my Wings and, in 30 months in all, was ready for FJ carrier ops. on a frontline aeroplane. Amazing these days !
Then another SDR and the politicians decided to scrap all the carriers !

OK, get some civvie licences and an 1179 - not as expensive as today - and instruct.
Then, 2 years later, instruct at an airline training school. They paid for my IR ! 4 years later and an airline came knocking !
I didn't even have a proper interview or have to pay for a type Rating. I took quite a drop in salary though - for 6 months.
As I had jet time, another Type Rating was all paid for and I was put up for a Command after a couple of years.
I did 25 years of it with little appreciation but lots of experience of our environment, people and what (hand) flying was all about.
After retirement I set up a company and did all the things I had wanted to do. To teach at an advanced level - instrument, aerobatics, formation and the icing on the cake - maintenance test flying (14 years of it) !
I've retired again after 18 years and I'm still flying but only for me now.

It's all about PASSION; the NEED, not the money. It is a tightrope but GIVE IT YOUR ALL - the MONEY will come anyway !

Good luck. :ok:

[yap800]

3 months later I was shotdown in flames at a Ryanair interview after lying about passing all my exams first time over the phone (not sorry I did it, who wants to be assessed by an admin person on the phone from Amsterdam?)


Classic! -The bit about lying about passing all your exams was hilarious.
Did you keep a straight face over the phone saying that?


After 10 months back in the UK I finally got my break and now I fly Turbo props for an airline in the UK.

I know of a few training mates who are still unemployed 5 years after qualifying.

The main reasons why is because they’re:
not prepared to move away from their hometown
not prepared to take a pay cut
not prepared to flying anything less than a 737
family life has taken over the dream




Great to hear you got there in the end. Thank you for sharing some reasons about the difference between making it and not, that is really helpful. Know any who were prepared to do all that and still didn't get there just out of interest?

[parkfell]

After 10 months back in the UK I finally got my break and now I fly Turbo props for an airline in the UK.

I know of a few training mates who are still unemployed 5 years after qualifying.

The main reasons why is because they’re:
not prepared to move away from their hometown
not prepared to take a pay cut
not prepared to flying anything less than a 737
family life has taken over the dream

If you have the passion you’ll get there.



Those contemplating flying as a career need to take careful note of what appears in the QUOTE

1. You might think that going straight from a light twin to a Airbus/Boeing etc is the best move. For those who regard themselves as “an ace of the base” then the choice may well be valid.
For the ordinary Joe, two years on a TP, multi sector days flying ILS, LOC, VOR, NDB approaches is the ideal apprenticeship. You build a solid foundation, with a fair amount of hand flying, visual approaches etc. Now ready to make that move to a medium size jet.

Just ask yourself how much manual flying will you get flying a big silver bird a month compared to a TP?
Just how competent are you when it comes to hand flying, raw data without that TP foundation?
Why not ask to fly a few 1500’ visual circuits early on during your MCC course? Good introduction if a circling approach is part of the syllabus later on.


2. At the very outset, if you are not prepared to move, accept FO pay, fly a TP, then why bother with the training in the first place?
These are all overcome without question if you really have the passion. The acid test.

If you are not 100% certain that this is what you have a burning desire to do, then forgot it; choose something else as an occupation as you are simply wasting your money.

[Captain-Random]

Classic! -The bit about lying about passing all your exams was hilarious.
Did you keep a straight face over the phone saying that?



Great to hear you got there in the end. Thank you for sharing some reasons about the difference between making it and not, that is really helpful. Know any who were prepared to do all that and still didn't get there just out of interest?

When I was interviewed by Ryanair and the truth came out the crinkly old captain (paddy I think his name was) actually said good man and admired my courage (he bombarded me with tech questions just to make sure I knew the stuff). However the HR guy was not having any of it. You could tell he wasn’t impressed because he only asked me a couple of questions why Ryanair and my base choice.

i don’t know of anyone who gave it 100% and didn’t make it. I know of a lot more that quit either mid way or after their ATPL’s
I also know of people who said they were prepared to do anything but haven’t because of the reasons I mentioned above

Good luck everyone

[Luray]

My story,
I got my EASA frozen in 2012 and could't find a job. In 2013 i wen't to Nepal to fly a tiny ultralight sightseeing flights for food but was not successful as they required some experience in fixing things - including the airplane. After returning home i was lucky to secure a job on a little turboprop for a demonstration flights. In 2015 this whole thing went belly up and i shifted to freelance flying - light singles and multi turboprops on demand. Later in 2017 I took a loan and bought myself a real type rating on a regional turboprop and got a job in EU(I am a 3rd world citizen) . Recently i had unsuccessful attempt on getting a jet job but was ditched 24 hours before the sim. I have about 1500 hours tt and all jet offers i get are equivalent to my total time in euro. Turboprops on the other hand pay triple but hours are almost worthless.

[Less Hair]

I have a friend who after a lot of PPL and CPL flying finally did his ATPL parallel to some other job. Being some "old" newbie now seems to kick him out of many airline tests. Maybe it's combined with not being a 20 year old and airlines feel he is not so flexible for their company style anymore? Just meant as a word of caution for non-standard career choices. So he ends up flying business jets partly with their low proficiency owners on the left seat...

[flyingmed]

I always laugh when I hear people in mainly western Europe that have the perfect picture that they will finish flight school and immediately join a major airline flying the big jets!

Some tips for those people:
Take any job anywhere in the world. Accept the low pay (at least for a few years). Be prepared to take further loans in the case you get an offer from the likes of Ryanair... NO you are not selling out or bending over for them, you are investing in your future.

Once you have that first job the road to better jobs is a paved one!

A friend of mine paid for his flight training from his semi professional music career. After he got his EASA licences he moved to Namibia to fly Cessna Caravans. A year later he was offered a job in Europe flying freight in an ATR. 2 years later he joined an airline in the UK flying Airbus 320's and has recently joined one of the Middle East 3 flying A380's.

A 'bad' job in Africa paved the way for his career, not to mention a few great stories for the pub!

[bulldog89]

Some tips for those people:
Take any job anywhere in the world. Accept the low pay (at least for a few years). Be prepared to take further loans in the case you get an offer from the likes of Ryanair... NO you are not selling out or bending over for them, you are investing in your future.

A friend of mine paid for his flight training from his semi professional music career. After he got his EASA licences he moved to Namibia to fly Cessna Caravans. A year later he was offered a job in Europe flying freight in an ATR. 2 years later he joined an airline in the UK flying Airbus 320's and has recently joined one of the Middle East 3 flying A380's.

A 'bad' job in Africa paved the way for his career, not to mention a few great stories for the pub!

Don't assume anyone has the same priorities in life.
Take a job anywhere... No thanks
Accept low salary... Depending on how much is the salary difference between my actual salary and the one proposed, taking into account expenses for living abroad and maybe commuting. Anyway any salary reduction more than 700€/months --> thanks but no thanks

About the "paved career", that's how it appears to my eyes: left home to fly Caravans, sounds a lot of fun flying, good if you're young and planning to stay for a few years. Come back and worked night shift...doing that on rotation, no way I'm working nights only. Got a position I'd probably not left. Moved to Middle East on long range, no useful pension, high living costs, again away from home.
Would I do that? No way, I'd just keep my current job.

As you see it's just a matter of personal priorities, there are no "general rules".

[flyingmed]

Don't assume anyone has the same priorities in life.
Take a job anywhere... No thanks
Accept low salary... Depending on how much is the salary difference between my actual salary and the one proposed, taking into account expenses for living abroad and maybe commuting. Anyway any salary reduction more than 700€/months --> thanks but no thanks

About the "paved career", that's how it appears to my eyes: left home to fly Caravans, sounds a lot of fun flying, good if you're young and planning to stay for a few years. Come back and worked night shift...doing that on rotation, no way I'm working nights only. Got a position I'd probably not left. Moved to Middle East on long range, no useful pension, high living costs, again away from home.
Would I do that? No way, I'd just keep my current job.

As you see it's just a matter of personal priorities, there are no "general rules".


Why would anyone get into flying commercially if they are not prepared to move away from their home town? That just sounds like a ridiculous argument when getting into a career in aviation!

A pay cut to get into the right job is a short term pain to a long term issue. I have taken a 50% paycut more than 8 years into my flying career, I am now better off than I would have been if I had stayed with my previous company...

Taking a job with unfavorable working rotations - it's a stepping stone to a job with better lifestyle conditions.

I know of a few pilots who joined Ryanair with the standard fATPL and minimum flight hours, then left during line training as they got based somewhere else in Europe and they wanted to live at home. :ugh: (they are still unemployed now.) They potentially blocked other pilots willing to do anything to get their foot in the door to a flying job, that is the worst part!

The main point I was trying to make to people is basically don't complain and moan that you don't have a job if you are not AS WILLING as the next guy. It simply comes down to what you are willing to do to create a career for yourself, no one will make your career for you. If you want a 9 - 5 job working in your home town then it's probably better join the local flying school and work at a more regular job or by all means work as a flight instructor!

[bulldog89]

Why would anyone get into flying commercially if they are not prepared to move away from their home town? That just sounds like a ridiculous argument when getting into a career in aviation!

"Town" is different than "continent" and by the way one has the right what he thinks is better for his own life.
Anyway there are "lucky" cities located near airline hubs, so again: are you narrowing your chances? Yes. Is it impossible? No. Is a risk worth taking? It depends on what you have to lose/gain.

A pay cut to get into the right job is a short term pain to a long term issue. I have taken a 50% paycut more than 8 years into my flying career, I am now better off than I would have been if I had stayed with my previous company...

Your call. Again, it depends on your starting condition: for example after a quick check I've found out that becoming a CPT in the company I was aiming at (and no, it's not a low cost carrier, it's in the LH group) would only give me a 500€/month total net gain (after 10 years, assumed time to command; as FO I'd lose money) compared to my current job. Add to that the TR cost, the number of OFF days (I currently have 12/month) and the overnights...is it worth it? Probably not.
Nevermind about Lauda and similar...

Taking a job with unfavorable working rotations - it's a stepping stone to a job with better lifestyle conditions.

Again, depending on your starting condition. It's a stepping stone to HOPE to get a better lifestyle, which in my case is worse than the one I'm enjoying now anyway. Is it worth it to me? Probably not.

I know of a few pilots who joined Ryanair with the standard fATPL and minimum flight hours, then left during line training as they got based somewhere else in Europe and they wanted to live at home. :ugh: (they are still unemployed now.) They potentially blocked other pilots willing to do anything to get their foot in the door to a flying job, that is the worst part!

A legitimate choice. Pilot selection should be merit based, not "flexibility" based as you seem suggesting. They performed better than others during selection and gained the right to leave the job at their will.

The main point I was trying to make to people is basically don't complain and moan that you don't have a job if you are not AS WILLING as the next guy. It simply comes down to what you are willing to do to create a career for yourself, no one will make your career for you. If you want a 9 - 5 job working in your home town then it's probably better join the local flying school and work at a more regular job or by all means work as a flight instructor!

Being "AS WILLING" is the base to lower salary and lifestyle conditions in the industry. It rhymes with "flexibility".
I agree that being a flight instructor could lead to a more "regular" lifestyle. Anyway it's not a really stable industry...maybe a good choice as a second job, but training costs are high and salary quite low...only for truly motivated people.

[flyingmed]

@ bulldog89 It sounds like you are already set into the market. You seem to have a job which although you may not be 100% satisfied with you still are not an unemployed pilot with minimal experience. I am referring to the subject of this forum "Unemployed pilots fATPL holders". There are many pilots in this category that wonder why they get left behind, sometimes it is simply because they are not as willing to move in order to secure a job. They then complain on PPrune and other sites that the market is unfair and make excuses for their own lack of enthusiasm and willingness to fight for their goals.

There are only very few who are lucky enough to stay close to home throughout an aviation career. I have only been flying commercially for 15 years now and have already lived in over 5 countries, moved my family to 4 different countries (2 continents), 3 different schools for my kids.... I guess I am trying to say that there are people out there who are very willing and capable, this determination is very apparent at interviews, hence why some people really stand out amongst the crowd of fATPL holders. Especially when the interviewers can't count on experience, they will grade you on what you can bring to the company.

[bulldog89]

@ bulldog89 It sounds like you are already set into the market. You seem to have a job which although you may not be 100% satisfied with you still are not an unemployed pilot with minimal experience. I am referring to the subject of this forum "Unemployed pilots fATPL holders". There are many pilots in this category that wonder why they get left behind, sometimes it is simply because they are not as willing to move in order to secure a job. They then complain on PPrune and other sites that the market is unfair and make excuses for their own lack of enthusiasm and willingness to fight for their goals.

There are only very few who are lucky enough to stay close to home throughout an aviation career. I have only been flying commercially for 15 years now and have already lived in over 5 countries, moved my family to 4 different countries (2 continents), 3 different schools for my kids.... I guess I am trying to say that there are people out there who are very willing and capable, this determination is very apparent at interviews, hence why some people really stand out amongst the crowd of fATPL holders. Especially when the interviewers can't count on experience, they will grade you on what you can bring to the company.

If your post is aimed to unemployed people then I pretty much agree with your points, even if the part about "lowering industry T&C" and "the right to leave the industry at any time" is still valid.

And you're right, I'm quite satisfied with my job.
The only thing that I miss is flying, as I think private flying in the free time is just a big waste of money. But I have to admit that if I'd ever be able to do some para-launching in my spare time I won't even think about becoming an airline pilot.

What I can say to unemployed students is: make sure this is what you really want, because with that amount of money you could also set up a small aviation company, which probably it won't make you rich, but it will give you an honest salary and a good amount of free time. BUT if at anytime you feel this is not the right path for you just find something else and move on.

[ZuluZuluAlpha]

I finished in 2013, one interview in 15, a couple last year, got nothing, just under 800hrs total time.

[flyingmed]

What I can say to unemployed students is: make sure this is what you really want, because with that amount of money you could also set up a small aviation company, which probably it won't make you rich, but it will give you an honest salary and a good amount of free time. BUT if at anytime you feel this is not the right path for you just find something else and move on.

Completely agree. Hopefully the t's and c's for flight schools and other non airline flying jobs improves over time and those provide an enjoyable lifestyle.

I don't think the money argument is really there for aviation anymore, it is so hard to get one of those high paying jobs anyway that even on a good job the money and benefits are nothing in comparison to other industries. I have friends who are engineers who earn similar money to captains on 737s and 320s in Europe. Flying will nearly never be a job that will make you rich, unless you move to China as a captain! :=

[Bryan_Air]

Agree with this flyingmed and bulldog89, you have to really really want it and have the non waning passion of Valentino Rossi to want to keep ongoing despite poor pay, being messed around, giving up your freetime often and paying for so many things yourself even when employed.

Its hard to know what its like until you have tried it but the older you get the harder it is to accept being treated like this, I found the airport security a real hassle, complete jobs worths alot of the time and a rubbish way to start your day!

I would recommend working in an airport for a week or two to really sort out if you want to spend so much of your time there, I guess the drop of rate would be high and you could save alot of your time and money.

[yap800]

even on a good job the money and benefits are nothing in comparison to other industries. I have friends who are engineers who earn similar money to captains on 737s and 320s in Europe. Flying will nearly never be a job that will make you rich, unless you move to China as a captain! :=


What type of engineering at what company? I know some Senior/Project civil engineers at top contractors earn from £45-65k whereas I thought 737 and 320 captains get £70- 90k? at most airlines.

Those engineers work from 7am to 7pm on a 5 on 2 off pattern sometimes 6 on 1 off. So thats 60+hr weeks
I suppose at least they have a regular wake up/ sleep pattern so maybe it cant be compared?

And software engineers at IBM average around 40k (on glassdoor) and software engineers at goldman sachs average £65k

By comparison to other industies do you mean doctors or lawyers, and financial services where the work is very competitive to get a foot in also? I don't really think there are any easy options at that kind of pay level.

(Sorry for helping to derail the thread it wasn't supposed to be sidetracked to about pay, but thank you for contributing )

[Bryan_Air]

Its about the whole package rather than headline salary, working from home, holidays, pension contributions as well, FS firms would pay upto 16% pension and many airlines pay the minimum contributions and some paid 0 until law change recently.

From my experience aviation is the most competitive I have come across with the lowest terms and conditions and riskiest business model.

The benefit of Doctors, Dentists and Lawyers etc, you can become a partner/owner and own part of the business and command your own work life balance and salaries/dividends closer to 200k if you own the practice and the property the business sits in, being your own boss as you get older rather being given a non negotiable roster.

Dated but relevant article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/10761957/Want-to-be-a-pilot-Count-the-cost-first.html

I think everyone would agree with this, dont do aviation for the 'high' salary, it will disappoint!

[Chris the Robot]

Aer Lingus pilots still seem to do very well, good salary and very good pension I hear, although the cost of living in Dublin is, I believe, very high. From what I've heard, the likes of Air France, KLM and Lufthansa also have very good contracts. Unfortunately the rest are/have been going the wrong way for quite sometime, even where pay/pensions are still good, there are longer two crew sectors and shortened rest.

Quite a few comparisons with other professions have been made. First-hand, I can only speak for the train driving world:
£50-70k basic depending on company, best top line I've seen on a payslip was £9500 for four weeks' work (including a lot of overtime).
Defined benefit pension at most places.
Typically a 4 day, 35 hour week.
Some companies are still "Sundays outside", meaning that unless you want to, you never have to work a Sunday. This was standard during BR days, some companies have "purchased" Sunday working from their drivers.
Internal redeployment with parachute payments if you lose your medical, at some companies you keep your drivers salary in the new role.
Fully funded training during which you receive approx. 50% of qualified pay and enrolment on the pension scheme.
Free travel with your own company and others under the same parent company from your first day of employment, 75% off all UK walk-up tickets after 6 months, FIP card for discounted continental rail travel after 1 year.
Job security on franchised passenger work is not dependent on industry financial performance, if your employer goes bust the government will either nationalise it or give the franchise to someone else and you get TUPE'd over. Freight and open access is a bit more like the airlines though.

How do we achieve it? We have a strong union and we also have a standard industry-wide aptitude test which has a 90%-ish failure rate with only one resit ever allowed. You also have to be taken on by a train company in order to become a trainee, so the entire industry isn't awash with newly qualified people desperate for a job. If you turned up for an interview and offered to pay for your own training (which costs a similar amount to an integrated fATPL), you'd get laughed out the door by management.

It's all supply and demand, look what happened in the US to T&Cs once the 1500 hour rule was brought in, if you can cut off the supply of people desperate for a job, pay and conditions will improve.

I'm currently doing a PPL, originally the intention was that I'd look to go for modular training or a funded cadet scheme afterwards, ow I'm tempted to just keep the PPL. Even though things have been "good" from 2014 through to 2018-ish, there's still a lot of people who haven't got jobs despite spending huge sums on training.

[flyingmed]

What type of engineering at what company? I know some Senior/Project civil engineers at top contractors earn from £45-65k whereas I thought 737 and 320 captains get £70- 90k? at most airlines.

Those engineers work from 7am to 7pm on a 5 on 2 off pattern sometimes 6 on 1 off. So thats 60+hr weeks
I suppose at least they have a regular wake up/ sleep pattern so maybe it cant be compared?

And software engineers at IBM average around 40k (on glassdoor) and software engineers at goldman sachs average £65k

By comparison to other industies do you mean doctors or lawyers, and financial services where the work is very competitive to get a foot in also? I don't really think there are any easy options at that kind of pay level.

(Sorry for helping to derail the thread it wasn't supposed to be sidetracked to about pay, but thank you for contributing )

I don't know what jobs are like in the UK (from the £ sign in your post) I can say from experience that that a large portion of IT security & IT engineering jobs in Ireland (for example) with the likes of social media companies and computer hardware manufacturers are over the 100K a year mark (maybe just under in £).
I do not have any banking / financial services / medical profession friends so I am not sure exactly what the pay packages are like there. The more unstable the job usually the more the monthly pay is, just like aviation.

The point I was trying to make is that the huge investment needed to get into aviation does not justify the pay for those people who want to get into flying for the monitory side of the job. Someone can spend less money to earn a similar or more money, especially in the USA where the good money is really only in the big carriers and a very unstable market underneath the major airlines. Not to mention sometimes crazy working patterns and very long commutes to work (5hrs +)

For the aviation engineering side of things you mentioned quite a stable roster for some friends, that seems to be quite similar to friends of mine who are in comfortable jobs. There are however jobs out there without the stable roster who are on much more as contractors.

I just saw in another thread the salary for captains in Laudamotion after tax is just over the 3K a month mark. There are plenty of non - aviation jobs which would pay that or more.

[flocci_non_faccio]

I know some Senior/Project civil engineers at top contractors earn from £45-65k whereas I thought 737 and 320 captains get £70- 90k? at most airlines.

£70-90k would be more reasonable for an FO than a captain.

[The Deec]

I did my licence a few years ago as a late starter after a good well paid career in another industry.

I was fortunate to get an airline job from the start and to be honest I hated it from about the second week. I am used to working in a polite, fair environment and the culture within the airline I was in was schoolboyish. Told what to do, when, where and how. Roster was mad, always a mess, and changes ALL the time when you have things going on in your life, hotels at the cheap end of the market. It was exciting first time flying the aircraft but once you have done it, its quite boring and the SIMs are always repeating the same thing, again and again but slightly different. Its a very repetitive job in a very sterile environment and I found it quite boring and something I got over pretty quick. Playing football with friends is much more fun and exciting.

I spent alot of time and money to do it which on one side was a complete waste but I wanted to do it and I did, so it was a success on the other side.

Am back in the other industry and I am much happier appreciating what I had even more.

Oh yes the money is very low for what you do. I think the younger you are the more you can put up with the BS, stress etc and the business case for the investment is more worthwhile as you can earn good £ quicker before family commitments come along and quality of life is more important.


Well said bryan . Was great to hear you got to follow your dream and succeeded in getting your licence.
It takes a strong person to achieve what you did and even a stronger person to walk away.

I have had a similar experience, been there done that, had some good experiences some great flying but more bad experiences than good im afraid and had to walk away just to keep sane.
You'll probably find that we're not alone .A majority will succeed and will live the dream but only for a short period and will end up back to some sort of normality ,whatever that may be .

[flocci_non_faccio]

I would recommend working in an airport for a week or two to really sort out if you want to spend so much of your time there, I guess the drop of rate would be high and you could save alot of your time and money.

I find this to be a very bizarre comment. I'd suggest that airport security is merely an annoyance and not something to base your career decisions on. There are far more compelling reasons not to fly for a living than the airport environment!

[macdo]

This is an interesting thread, pretty good advice in places to.

Passion for something is a very 21st. century notion, a word that is bandied about, but hard to pin down. I would say that Determination to never, ever, ever, give up is as useful to the aspiring fATPL, demonstrated by some of the posters on here. Certainly learnt by myself 27 years ago when I passed my IR in the middle of the Air Europe bankruptcy. 2.5 years of trying to get a job, finally materialized into one, and the wait was extremely trying, but worth all the effort in the end.

There are differences between then and now. The 90's was the tail end of the good times to be a pilot. I was lucky enough to end up with a legacy carrier which had great t&c, but post 9/11 everything has been a battle to keep them. With the failure of Thomas Cook a few weeks back, I now am looking for work again in an environment that I barely recognise and for pay that I would have laughed at a month ago. If you are new to this game (which I am insofar as selection processes go) I would greatly recommend a course of interview preparation. BALPA has thankfully organised these for the TC pilots FOC, but having done it, I can genuinely say it has increased my chances of surviving a selection day by 100%. The dead hand of HR looks at you from angles that you don't see yourself and you are judged by the smallest infraction of a set of criteria that only they know. But the criteria are generally similar for each airline, so know the game to increase your chances of winning it.

Thankfully, I came to aviation late as a 2nd career, so I'm at an age to walk away and hang up my headset. I loved the first 10 years, but the next 15 made me think that I would not recommend the life to my children unless they just had to do it, back to the passion, I suppose. The money today is there eventually, but it is not so great that plenty of other jobs, which are easier to achieve and hold onto, can't equal. I don't regret travelling the world and having some amazing experiences to remember doing long haul, but to sell my soul to do 4 east Med trips a week, no thanks.

[Meester proach]

Bit like the X factor isn’t it? One or two will make the big money with the great TCs, the rest will still be singing in the shower or karaoke !

Dont overlook the absolute importance of ‘ timing ‘.
Moving jobs/ companies/ types at the correct moment to get a promotion/ better pay etc.

My timing wasn’t bad and I got a command in my 30s, some I know has been awful ( not always their fault ) and means they are in their 40s with no sign of promotion on the horizon

[Bryan_Air]

I find this to be a very bizarre comment. I'd suggest that airport security is merely an annoyance and not something to base your career decisions on. There are far more compelling reasons not to fly for a living than the airport environment!


Its the culture I am referring to, aviation is a very different culture that can be exhausting in all areas.

[onionabroad]

Ha very interesting thread. I’m at the point in my life now that I’m rather bored of my current ITish job, and an seriously considering moving into aviation.



I know I can support my family and do the fATPL training in the background over the next 5 years, but the question of whether it will be worth it is a big one. I’ve had a love for aviation for decades, but also have just stated a family… currently just shy of £50k in my current job, I do wonder about what is considered “low pay” and what salary increases are realistic.



Luckily, in line with this thread, because I have a job already I’m not hugely concerned if it takes a few years of applications … but the investment vs a potential non-return thought is always there.

[parkfell]

If you enjoy teaching, go down the route ( via modular) of part time instructing at weekends and keep your well paid job to support your family.
If you can afford to spend that significant sum without the possibility of any return then do it; what you are contemplating is risky. Family must always come first.

[paul_v1]

Ha very interesting thread. I’m at the point in my life now that I’m rather bored of my current ITish job, and an seriously considering moving into aviation.



I know I can support my family and do the fATPL training in the background over the next 5 years, but the question of whether it will be worth it is a big one. I’ve had a love for aviation for decades, but also have just stated a family… currently just shy of £50k in my current job, I do wonder about what is considered “low pay” and what salary increases are realistic.



Luckily, in line with this thread, because I have a job already I’m not hugely concerned if it takes a few years of applications … but the investment vs a potential non-return thought is always there.

Always follow what is truly driving you, your family and wife will be thankful for that and test you if you really want what you chose. It will be hard but thats the way to fulfillment. Imagine being in a movie, youre the lead star and your son/daughter/wife is watching that movie. Its up to you how itll turn out.

[CapitalB]

I've read through most of this thread and, oh boy, there is some good advice in here together with putting some things into perspective. Thanks to all the previous posters!

I'm currently in a situation that is probably enviable but doesn't give any indication as to when I'll actually start.

I took the long route to the flying career, studying (and finishing those studies) as well as working as a flight attendant before doing my integrated ATPL training before turning 30. Now I've gone through some assessment centres just before the whole market more or less imploded and as it turns out, as of last week, I'm officially waitlisted with a Lufthansa Group Airline on a Jet AC. The whole process of sending out roughly 15 applications, getting responses, being invited to A/C etc. took about 4-5 months in total if there was a response at all from the respective airline.

The airline that gave me the green light now has no idea as to when they'll actually hire again but its a pretty decent position to be in. I'll probably go and work in my old line of work for a while while waiting for that gig to materialise eventually.
Thinking of what I'd do if I just came out of school and went into training to incur a debt of about 80.000EUR gives me the shivers... Having some sort of higher education to fall back to gave me some peace of mind at least. Money wise I would probably be worse off going for a pilots job anywhere else as there is absolutely more money in my old field but at the same time I have absolutely no drive to pursue a full time career in it. So leaving for passion is a common thing here...

To anyone still in the assessment grind I can only say: keep it up! Just look ahead and take one step at the time. Unfortunately it's just the way this industry works and times will hopefully get better soon. I'm gonna do some more A/C's as well and try to get something to bridge the gap until the opportunity mentioned above comes up.

[RVR800]

Re stats

National CAA statistics show issues of ATPL CPL and PPL.

These DATA are shown by year on year.

Not all PPL become CPL requires Exams hours flight test etc..

Not all CPL become ATPL requires Multi-crew IR etc

Possible to work out success/attrition from these DATA

[go-around flap 15]

Re stats

National CAA statistics show issues of ATPL CPL and PPL.

These DATA are shown by year on year.

Not all PPL become CPL requires Exams hours flight test etc..

Not all CPL become ATPL requires Multi-crew IR etc

Possible to work out success/attrition from these DATA

I would argue that this logic doesn't work well due to the fact that a huge and fairly disproportional amount of people gain their CPLs at UK based ATOs and then go on to work for airlines in other countries. Most notably a blue and yellow Irish one. Add to that all the guys and girls on the orange bus that are now on Austrian licences too.

[fencing_12]

It hurts a lot to be reading this topic. Good luck for everyone...

[Not your cup of tea]

I definitely fall into this category. I finished my ‘commercial’ flight training back in 2011, at which point I had a CPL, ME IR and had completed an MCC course in a 737 sim. I just did not ever get anywhere with it.

The closest I came was an interview with Ryanair which I had felt went well (one example being that I got a pat on the back from the sim instructor at the end of the session, therefore thinking it must have gone Ok) but received a ‘no thanks’ email almost the next working day. I still don’t get that. Other than that I’ve never had a look in anywhere.

In terms of training, I went down the modular route, which I see now was an absolutely huge gamble. The written exams were good, getting an average score in the low-mid 90s, and the flight training itself went OK, except that..... I failed the IR (although it was then passed at the second attempt, but still leaving me with a second series pass).

I’ve renewed a couple of times but again have got nowhere. The sad thing is I genuinely love flying and really wanted to earn my living as a pilot. I am reasonably well paid now in another industry but commercial aviation still looks good from the pay scales I have seen. But the older I now get the less interested I am at waking up at 4am etc. Still if the opportunity ever came up, I’d seriously consider it (I’d love to give it a go).

[rudestuff]

I’ve renewed a couple of times but again have got nowhere. The sad thing is I genuinely love flying and really wanted to earn my living as a pilot. I am reasonably well paid now in another industry but commercial aviation still looks good from the pay scales I have seen. But the older I now get the less interested I am at waking up at 4am etc. Still if the opportunity ever came up, I’d seriously consider it (I’d love to give it a go).

So have you given up or not? Finding that first job is the hardest part of the whole process, and it gets harder the longer you are out of training. The flight training is the expensive part, and you've already done that. "Seriously consider it" and "Love to give it a go" are not the same as "I'd jump at the chance" or "I'd do anything to..." So maybe in truth you don't want it enough? 8 years is a long time. You could get a lot of hours as a part time FI in 8 years. Or made a lot of contacts as an ATPL ground instructor. Or married and divorced a couple of chief pilots daughters. Most of us have the ability to make friends, and friends in airlines can be really useful when you want to work for an airline. Some people get lucky by just applying for jobs, but others need to think outside the box.

[James Ken McIntosh]

I think it’s not the lack of jobs or state of the industry but a combination of factors that prevent people getting jobs.

The issue I see it from my point of view from the inside is this.

1) Most of flight training prepares you for Single pilot ops and G/A rather then commercial flying. Flight schools train you in one manner but it fall short from airlines point of view.

2) Some people don’t have the applitude for it. If you don’t have it sorry pick something els.

3) Flights School summer have variation of quality of instruction and facilities not all are made equal

4) There is not many sources to look at that give you a straightforward path.

Everyone has different opinions.

If I had a time machine I would have gone through the MPL route to reach the right hand seat of an airliner earlier reasons

Your trained for the actual job from day one!

you have a job offer at the end

its the most effective way to train future trainees to touch an airliner.

[parkfell]

..........The sad thing is I genuinely love flying and really wanted to earn my living as a pilot. I am reasonably well paid now in another industry but commercial aviation still looks good from the pay scales I have seen. But the older I now get the less interested I am at waking up at 4am etc. Still if the opportunity ever came up, I’d seriously consider it (I’d love to give it a go).

If teaching interests you, then have you considered part time instructing?
Keeps your hand in, gentle increase in hours, and who knows what opportunities might arise.

[parkfell]

I think it’s not the lack of jobs or state of the industry but a combination of factors that prevent people getting jobs.

The issue I see it from my point of view from the inside is this.

1) Most of flight training prepares you for Single pilot ops and G/A rather then commercial flying. Flight schools train you in one manner but it fall short from airlines point of view.

2) Some people don’t have the applitude for it. If you don’t have it sorry pick something els.

3) Flights School summer have variation of quality of instruction and facilities not all are made equal

4) There is not many sources to look at that give you a straightforward path.

Everyone has different opinions.

If I had a time machine I would have gone through the MPL route to reach the right hand seat of an airliner earlier reasons

Your trained for the actual job from day one!

you have a job offer at the end

its the most effective way to train future trainees to touch an airliner.


1. The Regulators determine the syllabus. The part that you missed out was the MCC element following the CPL/IR skill tests. That is where the multi crew training commences. Much discussion elsewhere as to exactly what MCC course to follow.....

2. Provided you have average hand to eye coordination you will succeed. Golfers with good handicaps have no problems. Other sports such as cricket, tennis indicate a natural talent. Accomplished horse riders are easy to teach. Empathy with the machine.

We are not talking “fast jet” size brains required for commercial flying, although undoubtedly it helps.

3. Undoubtedly a factor. The first 20 hours are so critical. Quality instruction is vital. Can you select an attitude and TRIM accurately. This is CRITICALLY important.

4. Speak to those in the know.

5. MPL is a far superior route if your intention is airline flying. Only issue is that you must be ‘sponsored’ by an airline during the integrated course. The initial light ac flying is standard. Reduced amount followed by 120 hours multi crew training in a B.737 or similar approved device.

As certain Flybe MPL students found out 5 or so years ago, employment is not an absolute certainty if the financial situation is less than sound. Stirling in Denmark another faller with MPL students.

[James Ken McIntosh]

1. The Regulators determine the syllabus. The part that you missed out was the MCC element following the CPL/IR skill tests. That is where the multi crew training commences. Much discussion elsewhere as to exactly what MCC course to follow.....

2. Provided you have average hand to eye coordination you will succeed. Golfers with good handicaps have no problems. Other sports such as cricket, tennis indicate a natural talent. Accomplished horse riders are easy to teach. Empathy with the machine.

We are not talking “fast jet” size brains required for commercial flying, although undoubtedly it helps.

3. Undoubtedly a factor. The first 20 hours are so critical. Quality instruction is vital. Can you select an attitude and TRIM accurately. This is CRITICALLY important.

4. Speak to those in the know.

5. MPL is a far superior route if your intention is airline flying. Only issue is that you must be ‘sponsored’ by an airline during the integrated course. The initial light ac flying is standard. Reduced amount followed by 120 hours multi crew training in a B.737 or similar approved device.

As certain Flybe MPL students found out 5 or so years ago, employment is not an absolute certainty if the financial situation is less than sound. Stirling in Denmark another faller with MPL students.

Yes I am aware I missed out the MCC

however, it would make more sense to train a future cadet on MPA aircraft rather than building hours on SEP/MEP

they train marintime cadets using the actual mock up and simulator for ships

why not trainee pilots?

[parkfell]

Yes I am aware I missed out the MCC

however, it would make more sense to train a future cadet on MPA aircraft rather than building hours on SEP/MEP

they train marintime cadets using the actual mock up and simulator for ships

why not trainee pilots?

What junior birdmen need is to be taught the fundamental skills in the first instance on light ac. Probably by 70 hours experience there should be a significant improvement compared to what they achieved for the PPL skill test.

Those on the modular route ~ Hour building might be regarded by some as burning holes in the sky, with little attention to accurate flying. The more astute prospective professional pilot will use this time wisely.

After the IRR (IMC rating as was) with a safety pilot, improving your IF skills, flying holding patterns, flying different types of approaches and go-arounds will go a long way to gaining valuable skills.

You then transfer these skills to larger multi pilot ac.
Trying to run before you can walk is not recommended.

[novemberlima]

Hi everyone and Merry Christmas,
I finished my training with the MCC at the end of 2018 and it took me quite a while to get my licence issued, by the time the airlines in Europe slowed down with hiring new pilots and I missed that train, sending dozens of CVs every week without any positive response. In one year I didn't even get an interview.
I renewed my ratings and here I am looking for new prospectives and with lots of hope for the new year.
I'm asking you guys what would you do in my situation:
I was able to save a few grand working, lets say 10 and I'm thinking how to spend them the wiser possible way to be more suitable for an eventual employer and land on my first flying job.
I have 240 hours, I was thinking to go to the US and get a hundred hours done or get a Caravan training and trying to find a job with that here in Europe or go to Africa where I suppose there will be more chances for that plane (even though I know i'm very short of hours, if I do one thing I can't do the other)
An other option would be saving for one year more and being able to afford a type rating for a more popular aircraft.
I'm also thinking about charity operations, but the ones I googled have pretty high requirements. Honestly I wouldn't mind to bush fly for free for charity for a while, if I'm helping others and myself to get where I want to be.
I'm not thinking of doing the instructor course at the moment because I don't really feel it's my thing.
Hopefully things will get better soon but I don't want to stay too long out of the business looking from the window how things will evolve, I really need to do something now
Thank you very much for every suggestion guys, I really appreciate, good luck for all of those that like me are struggling to find their way into their dream.

[Toerist]

My story to cheer you guys up during the holidays:
I finished training back in 2010. Got a menial job as soon as I finished training to start paying of the training debt and have some money for additional training/renting aircraft. In the first few years I stayed as current as I could, renting aircraft at the local flying club (including IFR). I did manage quite a few invitations to selections/interviews. For some reason I failed each and every one of them, always for a different reason. I always debriefed myself or tried to find out why I couldn't proceed to the next stage. After about 5 years of this I managed to reach the final stage of selection of an airline that actually paid for the type rating on A320 in my home country. Unfortunately, despite several hours of training in a simulator I failed the sim check, party because I got sick the day before the check. By this time, I had also met my wife and decided to call it a day and I didn't renew my multi-engine rating. I stayed flying for another 2 years before I quit that as well.
In the meantime: I started studying to obtain a bachelor's degree in tourism through distance learning. I completed my internship for the degree with a rather big airline, working as a check-in and gate agent. I still couldn't quite get aviation out of my mind (I gave up on actually flying though). Immediately after the internship, in 2016 I was offered a position with another airline to work in their safety department as a Flight Data Monitoring Analyst (FDM/FOQA) and do some administrative duties on the safety reporting. In most part I got this job since I got some knowledge how to operate an airliner, but I didn't have the licenses to fly them.
This changed after having several talks with senior pilots in the company who urged me to 'have another go at it', since the market was rather good again and the company was having a harder time finding FO's. Doing an observation flight and discussing it with my wife sealed the deal. I renewed my ME-IR, this was quite expensive but I found the love for flying again.
3 months after I got the paperwork back I applied internally as a first officer. And guess what: this time I passed the selection process. My type rating started 2 months later on the 737NG. Everything paid for by the company. I have been flying the aircraft since a little over half a year, mostly to sunny destinations and obviously, I couldn't be happier: I am based 30 minutes from home, I fly a nice aircraft to nice and sometimes challenging destinations. Raw data flying is actually encouraged and there are opportunities ahead to fly long haul or do mixed fleet. I have just short of 500 hours on the 737 now.

Bottomline is: persevere in what you are doing. Even though the airline I fly for has a history of hiring staff within the office (most ab initios start with a job in the office). Do not exclude the opportunity to try this. It took me 8 years from obtaining my CPL to starting the type rating. It can be done! It is important to keep flying to maintain a high level of confidence and skills. The job is worth the patience.

Keep the faith ;).

[flyingmed]

My story to cheer you guys up during the holidays:
I finished training back in 2010. Got a menial job as soon as I finished training to start paying of the training debt and have some money for additional training/renting aircraft. In the first few years I stayed as current as I could, renting aircraft at the local flying club (including IFR). I did manage quite a few invitations to selections/interviews. For some reason I failed each and every one of them, always for a different reason. I always debriefed myself or tried to find out why I couldn't proceed to the next stage. After about 5 years of this I managed to reach the final stage of selection of an airline that actually paid for the type rating on A320 in my home country. Unfortunately, despite several hours of training in a simulator I failed the sim check, party because I got sick the day before the check. By this time, I had also met my wife and decided to call it a day and I didn't renew my multi-engine rating. I stayed flying for another 2 years before I quit that as well.
In the meantime: I started studying to obtain a bachelor's degree in tourism through distance learning. I completed my internship for the degree with a rather big airline, working as a check-in and gate agent. I still couldn't quite get aviation out of my mind (I gave up on actually flying though). Immediately after the internship, in 2016 I was offered a position with another airline to work in their safety department as a Flight Data Monitoring Analyst (FDM/FOQA) and do some administrative duties on the safety reporting. In most part I got this job since I got some knowledge how to operate an airliner, but I didn't have the licenses to fly them.
This changed after having several talks with senior pilots in the company who urged me to 'have another go at it', since the market was rather good again and the company was having a harder time finding FO's. Doing an observation flight and discussing it with my wife sealed the deal. I renewed my ME-IR, this was quite expensive but I found the love for flying again.
3 months after I got the paperwork back I applied internally as a first officer. And guess what: this time I passed the selection process. My type rating started 2 months later on the 737NG. Everything paid for by the company. I have been flying the aircraft since a little over half a year, mostly to sunny destinations and obviously, I couldn't be happier: I am based 30 minutes from home, I fly a nice aircraft to nice and sometimes challenging destinations. Raw data flying is actually encouraged and there are opportunities ahead to fly long haul or do mixed fleet. I have just short of 500 hours on the 737 now.

Bottomline is: persevere in what you are doing. Even though the airline I fly for has a history of hiring staff within the office (most ab initios start with a job in the office). Do not exclude the opportunity to try this. It took me 8 years from obtaining my CPL to starting the type rating. It can be done! It is important to keep flying to maintain a high level of confidence and skills. The job is worth the patience.

Keep the faith ;).


This is the sort of dedication I mentioned in a previous post. Unfortunately there are so many pilots now that are not good enough and will never be good enough for the airlines. It makes finding people like you hard to find sometimes. Well done on finally getting there!

[737TR]

Hello everyone!

Came across this thread while browsing pprune and wanted to share my story too to get a different point of view from inspiring people here. I started my integrated ATPL in October 2016 and finished by September 2019, took sometime for the exams as our batch struggled with the instructors being lazy and inexperienced but eventually finished the exams and passed with an overall score of 90%.

Went to flight training and aced all checks on first attempt in a short 8 months period including MCC. Was the top in my batch (others had extra hours, failed checks etc.) Got my license and applied to Flydubai’s second officer program (my father has connections there).

Sadly after 2 days the chief of training sending my papers, got a rejection letter due to my nationality. I come from a sanctioned country due to war but was born and raised in UAE, family has been here 35 years. No financial issues, no training issues whatsoever. Tried applying again on my own and going to the center to speak to someone, so humiliating that they had to send a guy from the finance section to meet me in the reception and whispered ‘you were rejected due to nationality’.

He asked me to provide him with my passport copy stating that my place of birth is Dubai plus a copy of my logbook stating that I flew here. Never heard anything from him again. Tried applying online and sent an email ‘begging’ them to accept as it is my only resort and technically my dream since childhood to join FDB.

Got back an email saying ‘sorry your country is sanctioned and we are not allowed to provide any training for personnel from your country’. How rude and disappointing to see that written in an email in plain words. Now it’s been more than 6 months of saying at home doing nothing and knowledge getting drained down the sink.

Every time I think of studying again or going over some stuff the image of that email pops in my head and drags me down the ground. Been trying to research around and found out this is discrimination (no joke). But who can resolve this? I guess no one. Been contacting some people and asking about this, no one ever faced this situation, it is very odd. Would like to know what do you guys think of this? Please share your prospective and enlighten me. Thank you all, wish you best of luck and happy landings.

[Iflyplainplanes]

Finished IR and MCC in 2011, applied for jobs had one interview that I bombed.

found another, job IR lapsed. Decided to pick it up again a few years later which took some time. Had a couple interviews and even a second stage lined up. Then covid and Brexit. Licence is lapsed again and only valid in the UK. Not to mention most places are now asking for Upset training etc.

The „dream“ is now so detached from my life now I don‘t see the way in, nor am I willing to continually drop ££££‘s in maintaining everything with nothing to show for it.

I think we don’t hear from people that didn’t „make lt“ as they are busy doing other things and don’t like to dwell on it.

[rudestuff]

The „dream“ is now so detached from my life now I don‘t see the way in, nor am I willing to continually drop ££££‘s in maintaining everything with nothing to show for it.
The thing is you've already paid for (and passed) the training. You're literally right where hundreds of people want to be... Unless there's something fundamentally wrong with you compared to other people then you should have just as good a chance as anyone else at getting a job. You either need a better job strategy or you need to wait for the next shortage.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Finished IR and MCC in 2011, applied for jobs had one interview that I bombed.

found another, job IR lapsed. Decided to pick it up again a few years later which took some time. Had a couple interviews and even a second stage lined up. Then covid and Brexit. Licence is lapsed again and only valid in the UK. Not to mention most places are now asking for Upset training etc.

The „dream“ is now so detached from my life now I don‘t see the way in, nor am I willing to continually drop ££££‘s in maintaining everything with nothing to show for it.

I think we don’t hear from people that didn’t „make lt“ as they are busy doing other things and don’t like to dwell on it.

I finished my training in 2013 after 5 years going modular. I ran out of funds party way through. 2016-2018 was a great time to get a job. Maintaining my IR when trying for a job was costing me about £500 a year in a ME aircraft. I was doing the bare minimum to stay current. Once I had an interview go and get some airline specific interview prep and a SIM session (£100-£200 and hour fixed based B737 can be found easily).

If you want it bad enough it will happen. Yes I got made redundant 2020 but seriously for me it never felt like a job. Everyday was just going out with like minded people.

How many fall by the wayside? I would say a lot. From people I have met en route I can name a dozen who gave up rather quickly and I think that’s what airlines see. Worst I have heard is ex CTC people who were paying £1100 a month in loan costs and never got into the flight deck at all. Sad but it happens.

Right now would probably be the worst time to try and get into the market but you never know.

[Iflyplainplanes]

The thing is you've already paid for (and passed) the training. You're literally right where hundreds of people want to be... Unless there's something fundamentally wrong with you compared to other people then you should have just as good a chance as anyone else at getting a job. You either need a better job strategy or you need to wait for the next shortage.

I paid for it and now because of Brexit it is so far removed from where I am at now. I will not sit and redo 14 ATPL exams nor will I move back to the UK. Yes sure I can do this and do that but like I said my life is now detached from that. Not my case but it is very easy for people
to have kids or what have you and very quickly not ever be in the right place to go for it.

And yeah maybe there was something wrong with me as well to be honest the idea of flying for a job now makes me feel numb.

[Iflyplainplanes]

If you want it bad enough it will happen


This can be true if you have money, and time to burn and nothing else going on in your life, but the wants of a 15 year old and a 30 something may be similar but the priorities are vastly different. Being an airline pilot is just a few notches above of own a ferrari. Realms of possibility maybe, but a dumb idea in my circumstances

there gets to a point where you have to be realistic. You could be throwing away multiple chances at a good career in a different field and a chance to build a life because you keep chasing childish dreams. At some point for some people you need to stop. Some people need to hear that people were able to stop. I still like aviation i still have an interest but you can be contented at arms length.