40% reduction in loads

[reazasassain]

FON update with increased leave available over the winter and massive reduction in future bookings on Cathay may not bode well for 13th month. It seems every year there is some sort of threat to bonuses. Although this may be a different situation as the previous financial uncertainties were self induced.

Will we be asked to take voluntary unpaid leave? Will the airline reduce the number of aircraft they are operating? Will air China make a bid to take over the airline? How much more time will be added to any future of an upgrade?

With all this uncertainty I feel as though I should be looking to get my arse out of here.

[Air Profit]

Really...? You only just came to that conclusion now? Hundreds are already on their new seniority lists ahead of you in case you didn't know. (and hundreds more to join them soon...).

[reazasassain]

What can I say I am Australian.

[Air Profit]

;)..........

[Kitsune]

What can I say I am Australian.

Bless.....

[mr did]

Were cargo loads down 40% as well?

[reazasassain]

With those drone strikes today in Saudi Arabia knocking out half of their oil production, approximately 5 million barrels a day. I can only guess what is going to happen to the price of oil per barrel. It doesn't really matter if cargo loads are full when the cabin is half empty and fuel costs twice as much. Don't forget that Trump's little trade war with China will impact cargo as well. There is usually a delay of about two to three months before those tariffs show there effect on the Cargo shipments.

[mr did]

At the current 1/3 hedge of $61 a barrel, Perhaps the betting, fuel hedging team will be made look like geniuses after all. Fuel surcharges to cover most of the rest.

[outside limits]

FON update with increased leave available over the winter and massive reduction in future bookings on Cathay may not bode well for 13th month. It seems every year there is some sort of threat to bonuses. Although this may be a different situation as the previous financial uncertainties were self induced.

Will we be asked to take voluntary unpaid leave? Will the airline reduce the number of aircraft they are operating? Will air China make a bid to take over the airline? How much more time will be added to any future of an upgrade?

With all this uncertainty I feel as though I should be looking to get my arse out of here.

Haha,
you’re worried about 13th month & bonuses ? You must be kidding ?

[Krone]

Self centred expat CX pilot. Enough said. reaps the money, doesn't give a fig about the society they live among.

Go protesters go. Lets see loads down 90%. I might actually get P25 on YVR Jclass for once :)

Lots of flats still being sold, so can't be so bad....lol

[anxiao]

The sectors I am trying to get on subload are not part of the 40% reduction in loads. Red in all classes all week so I stayed at home. And the prices full fare are eye watering, so the revenue is still there.

Maybe something to do with the Rugby in Japan, but sheesh I haven't seen it so bad since Christmas and Chinese New Year were the same day as Golden Week...

[mngmt mole]

The day of the expat is rapidly drawing to a close (at least at CX). In HK, nearly 50% of the pilots are now local. The recent COS18 expats aren't going to be staying in HK (especially when the penny drops on the cost of living, and the compromises for wives, children, schooling etc). To be fair, many of the locals are great, and I am happy to fly with them. I do feel however that eventually the nature of CX will have been changed to that of a "fly by numbers" airline, where the previous reality of experience and varied career backgrounds will have been washed away. CX is no longer the airline I joined, which is why it's probably a good thing that I am about to leave. Good luck with the long term future...something that CX managements since the early 90's have effectively traded for their own bonuses and pensions.

[ACMS]

Anyone looking at our computer system will see that current loads aren’t down 40%.

It’s available to see if you work for CX.

Nice headline though...

[Natca]

Anyone looking at our computer system will see that current loads aren’t down 40%.

It’s available to see if you work for CX.

Nice headline though...

Indeed it is a fallacy

[main_dog]

You can still kiss your thirteenth month goodbye though. After all, last time they didn’t pay it we responded with... deafening silence.

[Air Profit]

Not all of us. If they do that again, especially as we are now working alongside the KA pilots (13th month, higher salaries, more leave), I will of course take a month off between Jan and Jun, just like two years ago. Not that difficult really.

[Avinthenews]

Thomas Cook going under could see an influx of crew joining, COS18 will flourish.

[Gnadenburg]

Air Profit- "especially" as we are now working alongside the KA pilots (13th month, higher salaries, more leave)

Here we go. All this starts up again ! Can't some look deeper and accept a different contractural evolution?

KA pilots came to debatable pay parity with CX pilots after a long and bitter contract compliance campaign. It wasn't a vanilla lite campaign where it was wound back in typhoons or whatever else. Captains were sacked during typhoons. It was a horrible period and many left. An unrelenting industrial campaign ensued and CX managers ousted KA leadership and came over with money. Since then KA pilots have compounded small pay increases ( though many wanted to press harder ).

Can someone explain the 13th month? Didn't CX guys have it but integrate it into a pay increase? Whereby its now discretionary? If it wasn't welded into the KA pilots contract it would go as well.

Some dispute KA pilots are paid more. Is it as simple as comparing a 5th year CX or KA Capt on monthly pay scales?

Oh the leave. Now you guys are envious? Or you just want us to lose it because we appear happy ? Actually, its the only way to endure our rosters. I recall posts here on pprune where CX guys were castigating the KA leave scheme as we use G days attached to the leave with heavy stacking for the rest of the month.

A KA roster this month has 8 or 9 G days. With 8 or 9 overnights in China. With 8 or 9 CAAC inspections ( without the briefings you guys are getting ). I'm not sure any CX pilot would want our roster and leave system. The leave system is barely a medicine in sustaining KA pilots in our operation. Without it many would go and I believe this is reason it persists. Without the leave scheme, genuine sickness levels would skyrocket too. The mysterious illnesses we get. The Holiday Inn syndrome explaining many weird illnesses picked up such as typhoid, bug infections and an incurable clap amongst others.

[cxorcist]

Thomas Cook going under could see an influx of crew joining, COS18 will flourish.
Keep dreaming! Those guys have far too much respect for themselves to join for that dog’s breakfast. Besides, who would join an airline in HK now? You’d have to be extremely desperate or very low time, and no surprise, those are exactly the guys and gals CX is getting.

We hear this every time an airline goes under. Oh, a hoard of new joiners on the latest Z scale package, and yet it never happens, except for Oasis. Those guys were already in HK, many of them ex-CX RA55.

CX is a cadet airline now, plain and simple. Before long, the safety standards will be quite similar to the rest of the Asia Pacific region ex-Japan. It’s the inevitable course the CX board and directors have put the airline on.

[B772]

At some stage in the future CX will be just another Chinese Airline.

[propje]

Air Profit...
If you think the KA pilots have a better salary and leave system why didn’t you in the first place apply for KA instead of Cx....

[Air Profit]

Well, because when i joined CX it was the other way around. Regardless, I am not begrudging the KA pilots any advantage they may hold. Simply pointing out that CX cannot expect their pilots to quietly sit and be abused while at the same time rubbing shoulders with our colleagues in our dispatch area who are being treated better. We are all owned by one group. I didn't get a 13th month two years ago (and no real profit sharing for the past decade). I will not just go to work as usual if I see my owners treating one group of pilots substantially better than the other. They can not pay me the 13th month, and i'll simply not work a month in return. As long as we understand each other.

[Gnadenburg]

Air Profit I'm not sure if you are spiteful or in political parlance, one of Lenin's useful idiots, because you read like the crap our managers try and sprout at Fleet Forums. We don't get more leave than you, we give up our limited G days. Our 13 month is contractual- why did you give up yours? I can't be sure who is paid more but of course, we accepted small pay rises that compounded whilst you rejected them ?

KA pilots fought a bitter CC campaign and not once was CX pilot pay raised. It's professionally impolite and never did we risk the dragging down of others under the same management.

Good luck on your lone wolf industrial campaign. If you all do it I'm sure there's no risk of losing your 13 month. But keep us out of it.

[Freehills]

I will not just go to work as usual if I see my owners treating one group of pilots substantially better than the other. They can not pay me the 13th month, and i'll simply not work a month in return. As long as we understand each other.

A Scale/ B Scale/ C Scale/ COS 2018. Why are you going to work as usual now if differing treatment is such an issue?

[Air Profit]

Gnadenburg, a bit sensitive I think. I said quite clearly I don't begrudge your benefits. I was simply saying that we effectively all live under the same roof now, and whether or not you agree, it would be very corrosive to victimize the CX pilots yet again. Before it was "out of sight out of mind". Now, not so much. You don't have to agree with my point or my logic, but it is my opinion. I understand that my comments struck close to home for you, that much is obvious. (and no, i'm not spiteful, just a very fed up CX pilot, and some of the points you raise aren't accurate either).

[Gnadenburg]

Of course I'm sensitive to unsubstantiated and unfair comments in package comparisons.

And it seems ridiculous to say I'm paid more ( maybe or maybe not ) when you've walked away from pay increases? KA pilots accepted small increases which have compounded with the arguments in favour of this approach being CX's failed industrial campaign and pay stagnation.

I hope you get your 13th month. It would be a mistake to potentially alienate frontline staff further.

[mngmt mole]

Gnad. You seem to be confusing two different things. None of us begrudge the pay or benefits you get (and I admire the efforts of the KA pilots). CX management have insisted on combining us into "one happy family". When everyone is rubbing shoulders as we now do, it is pretty divisive to treat one group completely differently than the other. Nothing to do with different contracts (in our case, COS99/08/18). Everyone chose those individually. CX pilots have been messed about in an epic fashion for years now, and it is coming to a boil. It's not about the details, it's about the sentiment. CX managers seem to know exactly how to demoralise and mistreat all groups. What AP seems to be saying is that we are sick of being treated so differently on fundamental factors (13th month). Never used to be a problem until our management became greedy. I am glad you have what you do, but there is nothing wrong with AP pointing out to the management that there will be a world of hurt if they try the 13th month outrage again. I know we don't see eye to eye on this, but that's just the way it is. Ultimately, the enemy resides several floors higher, and we both know that. AP wasn't attacking you, he was pointing out that management wants to keep dividing us. He was pointing out just where the division is. You just seem to be upset that he has highlighted it. Not relevant. Both your points, and his are equally fair. The difference is that you turned it into an adhominem attack against AP. That is plain wrong, and quite instructive.

[Fat_Dumb_and_Unhappy]

Air Profit. As pointed out by FreeHills above, you seem outraged at the fact that two pilot groups are being treated differently, but this has been the case within CX for ages now. Did you throw the toys out of the pram when B-scale/C-scale/Cos18 was introduced? Surely those were blatant examples of pilots doing the same job within the same airline, but on vastly different pay packages?

Whenever there is a discussion about how HKPA should be increased, the usual response is "They know what they signed". How is this any different? CX guys knew what they signed when they joined, there was no guaranteed 13th month. KA guys signed their contracts, and then fought for improvements.

I half suspect that the 'injustice' that you feel when looking at what KA get is because for a change you happen to be in the group that is worse off, as opposed to the group of pilots within CX who have always had it better.

[Air Profit]

Refer to MM's response above, as he explains it better than I did. Not outraged (and definitely not at KA pilots), simply warning CX management that ot continue to treat both pilot groups (comparing seniority) differently in such a gross manner will only lead to personal action to address that. Again, don't take it personally. My fight is with management, not KA pilots. Ultimately, I will enjoy taking a further month off during the next year if necessary. As I did the two years previously.

[deja vu]

Refer to MM's response above, as he explains it better than I did. Not outraged (and definitely not at KA pilots), simply warning CX management that ot continue to treat both pilot groups (comparing seniority) differently in such a gross manner will only lead to personal action to address that. Again, don't take it personally. My fight is with management, not KA pilots. Ultimately, I will enjoy taking a further month off during the next year if necessary. As I did the two years previously.
I sympathise, I really do. You must be aware though that since 1992 Cx conditions have been on the wane. To have joined after that and not to expect it to continue is a little naive. I don't know the answers but taking "personal action" only hurts your colleagues who have to pick up the slack. Cx don't give a hoot as long as their aircraft get away, maybe you feel good at the time but it won't change a thing.

[Air Profit]

Fair points, other than the one about "colleagues picking up the slack". They have exactly the same ability to take a month off as I do. Personal choice.

[Flying Clog]

And you're helping them out by probably putting them into overtime.

[Air Profit]

Seems like a win-win to me. :O

[main_dog]

I don't know the answers but taking "personal action" only hurts your colleagues who have to pick up the slack. Cx don't give a hoot as long as their aircraft get away

Not quite true. The high sick rate means more crew needed on standby at any given time. In the final analysis it means you need more total crewmembers on the payroll to face a given task.

The sad thing is that a few simple fixes would go a long way towards easing the frustration responsible for the high sickness rates.

[deja vu]

Seems like a win-win to me. :O
Are you suggesting that if you didn't go to work at all that everybody is better off? win-win. Hmmm...I think I am beginning to understand,

[drfaust]

Air Profit: Is it really the case that CX pilots traded away their 13th month to incorporate it into their pay rise? Would that explain the higher basic salary CX guys get compared to KA?

If that’s the case then there’s really nothing to debate. A discretionary bonus provided by the employer is just that, the comparison with the 13th month we get at KA is a false one.

This place is awash with a million different contracts because the prevailing mentality does not allow for solidarity with any new generation. It is the bed CX and KA pilots made for themselves with the erosion of A scale to begin with and now the situation is what it is. You want to take a month leave? Help yourself I would suggest.

I respect the fact we all have different contracts; I am happy for the guys that are on a better one than I am and I empathise for the people that are on a worse one than I am. That said it doesn’t change anything for me.

Also, KA has been hiring for the last 5 years pretty much. People have obtained commands in less than a year. The opportunity was there to join for anyone that felt the KA contract was significantly better. You get the roster with it as well though, it comes completely free with the package. :}

In my case I chose to apply to KA because on the long term it was simply a better career prospect and a higher value proposition with the much shorter time to command. In return I don’t get the fancy 777 rosters, monthly OT and nice layovers in premium destinations. Now that we rub shoulders in the briefing office doesn’t change that of course.

[Gnadenburg]

If they do that again, especially as we are now working alongside the KA pilots (13th month, higher salaries, more leave)

Sorry. Been away in China with my burner phone.

Despite embellishment, this is an ill-natured and unsubstantiated statement. Near identical to what's been sprouted at Fleet Forums by bonus-driven managers. I've even heard CX cabin crew on the jump seats bemoan better treatment of KA pilots which is nothing short of obscure and repeat of divisive management rhetoric.

Apples and oranges by comparison. And it changes. For instance, there's a deliberate drive now to get as many senior KA pilots onto a part time scheme as opposed to unpaid leave and redundancies. If half of KA B scale pushed toward part time with slashed benefits, how again do you compare contracts? Well, an annual tax return may be a start.

Enjoy your time off though I'd be hopeful you get a 13 month.

[Air Profit]

Sometimes a person needs to know when to admit he got it wrong. That is the case with my original comments. Although my sentiment regarding the 13th month is valid, using the comparison to the KA pilots was ill-considered. To be clear, I admire the fortitude of their pilots who I know fought hard for their contract gains, something the CX pilots have been woeful at. I didn't mean to draw any inference regarding their overall contract conditions. It's up to the CX pilots to fight for their own conditions. If management withhold the 13th month from us again, well, I know what I am going to do. Up to my colleagues what action they do or do not take in defence of their expectations. Ultimately, we need to show the same resolve towards our management that the KA pilots exhibited. If we don't fight, we'll get nothing, and nothing is what we deserve if we don't fight.

[Dilbert68]

Air Profit: Is it really the case that CX pilots traded away their 13th month to incorporate it into their pay rise? Would that explain the higher basic salary CX guys get compared to KA?

No that is not the case, never has been. Our 13th month was contractual for many years until it wasn't. 13th month was changed to "Annual Discretionary Bonus" in one of our ever changing new and sh!ttier contracts. The only place it was incorporated into the salary was on the bases, not in Hong Kong.