Mt Cook and Air Nelson contract

[clemfandango]

New contract tabled combining the two airlines into one. General concensus seems barely contained glee for the Nelson pilots and barely suppressed rage among the Cook boys and girls. How are those affected feeling about this?

[KiwiAvi8er]

New contract tabled combining the two airlines into one. General concensus seems barely contained glee for the Nelson pilots and barely suppressed rage among the Cook boys and girls. How are those affected feeling about this?

I think it depends which ATR driver you ask. I think its decent, contract protections are well worth a small trade off in transport allowance etc. The term B scale has been thrown around, which shows a lack of understanding of the concept. A B scale salary would never have the possibility of increasing to the grandfathered ATR rate with the fleet changes adjusting the blended rate. What are your thoughts on it?

[Terrorhawk81]

I think it’s bloody good!

[fly real fast]

I’m no longer in the Link group but as an outsider looking in I find it hard to understand what the benefits are for the Pilots to combine the seniority lists. Can someone please explain what they are? Does big brother think it will help retain the Link Pilots with the promise of a jet job in the future (new course plan came out a few weeks back and everything is slowing down big time). With the issues the training department are having with the guys coming across to fly the jets there will soon be a sim ride and interview to assess suitability again.
If I was a new joiner today, I’d get my time up on the ATR/Dash and jump to Virgin/Jetstar/JetConnect for a bit of experience then back to AirNZ. I understand there is a stand down period if you go that avenue but I’m pretty sure you’d get an interview well before your number comes up on the jets. Average retirements per year is currently 20-30 a year. How many years is it for a new joiner til they get to pole around a 320 or become a S/O on a wide body. Do the maths. Good luck.

[clemfandango]

Seems like classic divide and rule to me. Air NSN clearly frothing at all the gains and the Cook guys feeling gypped at their own meagre increases(losses in some cases) after months of showy promises. Bedlam if it doesn’t go through. I saw the contract today and it most certainly is a b scale obfuscated with some ‘blended’ bull**** that might take years to get in the ballpark. You’d be ripping off future hires no matter how you sell it to yourself. Lipstick on a swine.

[KiwiAvi8er]

I’m no longer in the Link group but as an outsider looking in I find it hard to understand what the benefits are for the Pilots to combine the seniority lists. Can someone please explain what they are? Does big brother think it will help retain the Link Pilots with the promise of a jet job in the future (new course plan came out a few weeks back and everything is slowing down big time). With the issues the training department are having with the guys coming across to fly the jets there will soon be a sim ride and interview to assess suitability again.
If I was a new joiner today, I’d get my time up on the ATR/Dash and jump to Virgin/Jetstar/JetConnect for a bit of experience then back to AirNZ. I understand there is a stand down period if you go that avenue but I’m pretty sure you’d get an interview well before your number comes up on the jets. Average retirements per year is currently 20-30 a year. How many years is it for a new joiner til they get to pole around a 320 or become a S/O on a wide body. Do the maths. Good luck.

The benefit is becoming employed by Air NZ. It’s that simple. Both the Nelson and Cook AOC’s are going to Air NZ in Nov and early next year. Without merging into one regional group within Air NZ both airlines will operate under service agreements with Air NZ aka contractors aka Jetconnect.

The career pathways initiative is definitely just a showpiece from the company to stop regional pilots leaving the group and only benefiting a certain few as it currently is. Some of which are treating it as a holiday and subsequently failing the training.

[KiwiAvi8er]

Seems like classic divide and rule to me. Air NSN clearly frothing at all the gains and the Cook guys feeling gypped at their own meagre increases(losses in some cases) after months of showy promises. Bedlam if it doesn’t go through. I saw the contract today and it most certainly is a b scale obfuscated with some ‘blended’ bull**** that might take years to get in the ballpark. You’d be ripping off future hires no matter how you sell it to yourself. Lipstick on a swine.


You clearly can’t be a fan if you’re not with either airline but have started a pprune account to post about the contract.

I don’t know which ‘Cook’ guys you’re talking to but is definitely not the only view held within the ranks. The guys who have been around a while clearly stated we want more time at home and roster/contract improvements. Has that occurred? Well you have the contract. I’m sure you can make your mind up.

Have you noticed who the new hires are going to be? Did you read the bit about ‘graduate pilots’? Once that’s approved by CAA, thats where the vast majority will be coming from. Do you have an issue with the remuneration that they’ll receive for the first year or so?

[wantobe]

The benefit is becoming employed by Air NZ. It’s that simple. Both the Nelson and Cook AOC’s are going to Air NZ in Nov and early next year. Without merging into one regional group within Air NZ both airlines will operate under service agreements with Air NZ aka contractors aka Jetconnect.

The career pathways initiative is definitely just a showpiece from the company to stop regional pilots leaving the group and only benefiting a certain few as it currently is. Some of which are treating it as a holiday and subsequently failing the training.




Aren't Mount Cook and Air Nelson subsidiaries atm anyway? Very much like Jetconnect?

[ElZilcho]

I haven’t seen the contract, only the new payscales, and I do think it’s a bit strange to have a blended rate. At Air New Zealand, we have a blended rate on the 777 to allow for -200/300 variants, the same will most likely occur for the 787 when we operate both -9&10 variants. This is because Pilots on type actually operate all variants. We don’t, for example, blend the A320 rates with Widebody rates just because they’re on the same AOC, so why do it for the links?

I appreciate there’s a bit of a first day lottery between fleets when joining the regionals but the same is true at Air New Zealand. If there’s a combined regional seniority list, then surely pilots can move between fleets as vacancies and seniority allows?

[RubberDogPoop]

What good can possibly come from merging the lists.
Now watch some old mate lodge a PG that they are senior enough for a 777 command because they have been employed by "Air New Zealand" for the last 20 years and a judge siding with them.

Given the "success" of said "seniors" in the flight librarian role, how do you think they'd go direct into the left seat?

[wantobe]

For someone across the pond currently going through the interview process (I'm aware where this question is being asked), what sort of time period are we talking about for progressing to a jet from link?

Sure a jet is not the be all to end all, but at the same time it's nice to know what could be given time.


Over 10 years if you join the links now to be a second officer on the jet

[pilotchute]

The ad says type rated dash and ATR pilots. No mention of time on type. So they want you to pay for your own rating? Or are they just trying to poach people from Qlink and Virgin?

[fly real fast]

What good can possibly come from merging the lists.
Now watch some old mate lodge a PG that they are senior enough for a 777 command because they have been employed by "Air New Zealand" for the last 20 years and a judge siding with them.

They wouldn’t have a wide body command yet. Current crop of 787 skips have been 24 years! Your point is noted though

[RubberDogPoop]

They wouldn’t have a wide body command yet. Current crop of 787 skips have been 24 years! Your point is noted though

Not to mention FRF, that it’s a merging of the regional lists only...

[KiwiAvi8er]

Aren't Mount Cook and Air Nelson subsidiaries atm anyway? Very much like Jetconnect?

Very much like Jetconnect until Jetconnect transferred their ‘feet’ of 737’s to Qantas and switched to VH rego’s. They’re no longer a subsidiary airline but solely employ pilots and flight attendants to operate Qantas services. Not in either Cook or Nelson’s interest to replicate that.

[captsf]

What good can possibly come from merging the lists.
Now watch some old mate lodge a PG that they are senior enough for a 777 command because they have been employed by "Air New Zealand" for the last 20 years and a judge siding with them.


A few can’t even get through the IPT let alone pass a Jet command check, I don’t think we need to worry ;)

[KiwiAvi8er]

A few can’t even get through the IPT let alone pass a Jet command check, I don’t think we need to worry ;)


You’re right. No need to worry. You’ll know as well as anyone that the seniority between Jet and Regional isn’t merging, nor was that ever proposed. Added to the bottom was the initial aim.

I believe Air NZ ALPA members are shortly voting on an amendment to the CEA which tightens the wording to prevent the thought of any such PG. But we won’t let that get in the way of a good yarn....

[packapoo]

Looks like your effort was a failure clemfandango....

[Thewnz]

For a Q driver that is directly affected, I am all in really for this contract. Yes i wish the pay divide was addressed as im still earn $12k less than an FO at the same level flying the ATR and skippers are still earning a lot less. The blended scale that will be adopted has its issues but it is what it is, new emoyees dont have to sign it if they dont want the job. Eventually when a certain percentage of the fleet is mostly ATR then we migrate to the ATR payscale that is kept for current atr pilots. Conditions are good, security is good. Long term its good. If this doesnt get passed I dont like the idea of the alternatives from big brother ie: possible service level agreement... Is it a threat not really its just the way it goes with bith flerts joining the Air NZ AOC. With this deal everyone is still getting more money (not much more but its still a rise) and good conditions

[pisstin broke]

You’re right. No need to worry. You’ll know as well as anyone that the seniority between Jet and Regional isn’t merging, nor was that ever proposed. Added to the bottom was the initial aim.

I believe Air NZ ALPA members are shortly voting on an amendment to the CEA which tightens the wording to prevent the thought of any such PG. But we won’t let that get in the way of a good yarn....
Rest assured that ALPA will always act in the interests of one particular pilot group, and it ain't either of the Links

[Thewnz]

Ha! Classic f**k you I've got mine mentality. Yea just go ahead and join a multitude of other regional carriers flying around New Zealand.

This classic stitch up has been seen many times around the world and the geniuses down under discovered they can kill the unborn for their own gain.

Not sure how its a classic "f**k you ive got mine" mentality when a new recruit gets exactly the same conditions and pay that I get (assuming they have their atpl subjects completed and start on same pay level).

[Fush n Chups]

For a Q driver that is directly affected, I am all in really for this contract. Yes i wish the pay divide was addressed as im still earn $12k less than an FO at the same level flying the ATR and skippers are still earning a lot less. The blended scale that will be adopted has its issues but it is what it is, new emoyees dont have to sign it if they dont want the job.

I'm sorry but the same could also be said when you were given the Air Nelson contract, no one forced you to sign along the dotted line.
I just hope you realize that you are punishing yourselves just as much as the new hires with the blended/ B scale pay when you get directed into an ATR (maybe even with a forced base move) flying the exact same aircraft, routes and TODs as current Cook pilots but for significantly less money until the company has gotten rid of 16-18 Qs. Food for thought

[fly real fast]

Rest assured that ALPA will always act in the interests of one particular pilot group, and it ain't either of the Links

Isn’t ALPA trying to look after the Links by Career pathways, joining of the seniority lists, Links getting directly into the Jets without interviews etc?

Sometimes it’s better to take a deep breath and reflect on what is/has been going on rather than shoot from the hip

[kev2002]

seems to me that ALPA has looked after the links a little too much

[KiwiAvi8er]

I'm sorry but the same could also be said when you were given the Air Nelson contract, no one forced you to sign along the dotted line.
I just hope you realize that you are punishing yourselves just as much as the new hires with the blended/ B scale pay when you get directed into an ATR (maybe even with a forced base move) flying the exact same aircraft, routes and TODs as current Cook pilots but for significantly less money until the company has gotten rid of 16-18 Qs. Food for thought

I just hope you realise how much you would be punishing yourself if this offer gets voted down. You think the second offer is going to be better? If you think all the power will be in your court going in to future bargaining rounds as a subcontractor then good luck to ya!

[Massey058]

I'm sorry but the same could also be said when you were given the Air Nelson contract, no one forced you to sign along the dotted line.
I just hope you realize that you are punishing yourselves just as much as the new hires with the blended/ B scale pay when you get directed into an ATR (maybe even with a forced base move) flying the exact same aircraft, routes and TODs as current Cook pilots but for significantly less money until the company has gotten rid of 16-18 Qs. Food for thought

But that's not true though is it. That's not how the blending works at all, which means you're either not affected by it, haven't bothered to go to a meeting or talk to the negotiators or are stirring.

[go123]

I’ve never heard such rubbish, why are you making it sound so doom and gloom if this doesn’t get over the line. All that happens is they go back to the drawing board and divvy the money up more fairly then it goes back out to the vote. Keep in mind Air Nz is still making huge profits. I don’t think you understand negotiations if you think the first offer is the best one, look at our engineers as an example.

[KiwiAvi8er]

I’ve never heard such rubbish, why are you making it sound so doom and gloom if this doesn’t get over the line. All that happens is they go back to the drawing board and divvy the money up more fairly then it goes back out to the vote. Keep in mind Air Nz is still making huge profits. I don’t think you understand negotiations if you think the first offer is the best one, look at our engineers as an example.

We’ll see shortly won’t we. They’ve already stated that if this doesn’t go through we go to individual bargaining. This unfortunately isn’t a normal situation where you can dig in for more money. Both airlines won’t exist from early next year.

[go123]

Yup, we sure will. Individual bargaining is further down the track, don’t fret Aviator

[pisstin broke]

Isn’t ALPA trying to look after the Links by Career pathways, joining of the seniority lists, Links getting directly into the Jets without interviews etc?

Sometimes it’s better to take a deep breath and reflect on what is/has been going on rather than shoot from the hip
Why is there a scope clause in the ANZ Alpa pilot's contract? Who was it specifically designed to exclude from operating jets.
Link pilots - know your place.

[KiwiAvi8er]

Why is there a scope clause in the ANZ Alpa pilot's contract? Who was it specifically designed to exclude from operating jets.
Link pilots - know your place.

Not sure what your point is. Superiority complex anyone?

[pisstin broke]

Not sure what your point is. Superiority complex anyone?
Irony is kinda lost on you Kiwi

[KiwiAvi8er]

Irony is kinda lost on you Kiwi

Ok. Forgive me, but, that kind of comment seems to be a commonly held view at the jet fleet. And those guys aren’t trying to be ironic.

[Massey058]

Can't really blame them for having a scope clause given the history of Freedom, BAe146 at Mount Cook and Zeal320. Makes a lot of sense. Just hope everyone can see the bigger picture and the long term.

[ElZilcho]

Just look over the ditch to our neighbors at QF... Cobham, Network, Express Freighters, Jetstar, JetConnect, did I miss anyone??

For link Pilots to moan about that scope clause is incredibly short sighted... or perhaps incredibly selfish coming from those whose career progression stopped in the regionals?

Do we really want to be a “Group Airline” climbing all over each in a bid race to the bottom for new types/routes?

Tag&Release and the GOP list is ALPA (and the company) looking out for regional pilots at the expense of every other Pilot joining Air NZ. If it goes ahead, a 19 year old Cadet will forever have seniority on (for example) the ex Cathay Captain joining us. Sure the Cathay Pilot might start on the A320, but they’ll have 600 regional Pilots & 400 Jet Pilots ahead of them for promotion. They’ll be an F20 until retirement so why would they join?

[go123]

The GOP is dead, it will never get ratified. Let’s just leave it at that. The current set up is the best we are going to get. Guess what happens when Air NZ jet starts hiring in 2 years? The links won’t release any pilots because of manpower and externals will be hired, the new 80/20 ratio will take care of your number. If we have to reinterview for the role then so be it. If you want to fly a jet so badly then don’t stay at the links, man up and leave and you’ll end up starting at Air NZ before all of us if that’s what you want.

[KiwiAvi8er]

Just look over the ditch to our neighbors at QF... Cobham, Network, Express Freighters, Jetstar, JetConnect, did I miss anyone??

For link Pilots to moan about that scope clause is incredibly short sighted... or perhaps incredibly selfish coming from those whose career progression stopped in the regionals?

Do we really want to be a “Group Airline” climbing all over each in a bid race to the bottom for new types/routes?

Tag&Release and the GOP list is ALPA (and the company) looking out for regional pilots at the expense of every other Pilot joining Air NZ. If it goes ahead, a 19 year old Cadet will forever have seniority on (for example) the ex Cathay Captain joining us. Sure the Cathay Pilot might start on the A320, but they’ll have 600 regional Pilots & 400 Jet Pilots ahead of them for promotion. They’ll be an F20 until retirement so why would they join?

No one is “moaning” about a scope clause. This thread is about the regional collective offer, nothing to do with GOP lists or scope clauses.

Do do we want to be a Group Airline? Well the company’s already decided that’s happening. Which is why Cook and Nelson support staff are currently being made redundant.

[captsf]

Ok. Forgive me, but, that kind of comment seems to be a commonly held view at the jet fleet. And those guys aren’t trying to be ironic.

We have a superiority complex? I think we are just keen on protecting the high standards to which we operate and not hand out jobs to people that have failed previously or were too lazy to put in the effort and front up for an interview in the first place. But lucky for you their ‘loyalty’ is now being rewarded.

The clause is to tighten up our contract so that no said, ‘loyal’ pilots can try and jump positions, it’s only for our piece of mind, as discussed before, the discussion in link flightdecks in the early stages of pathways about PG’s and original DOJ spooked us. (They only have themselves to blame).

Unfortunately some of these people who were wanting to hold out till their “Bus command came up” (apparently the FO role was beneath them), are now having a bit of trouble getting through the training and it looks like we might be heading back to more in-depth screening which we had previously. (I wish no ill will on any one btw) but If you’re looking for superiority complexes, you are looking in the wrong place...

[Fush n Chups]

Just look over the ditch to our neighbors at QF... Cobham, Network, Express Freighters, Jetstar, JetConnect, did I miss anyone??

For link Pilots to moan about that scope clause is incredibly short sighted... or perhaps incredibly selfish coming from those whose career progression stopped in the regionals?

Do we really want to be a “Group Airline” climbing all over each in a bid race to the bottom for new types/routes?

Tag&Release and the GOP list is ALPA (and the company) looking out for regional pilots at the expense of every other Pilot joining Air NZ. If it goes ahead, a 19 year old Cadet will forever have seniority on (for example) the ex Cathay Captain joining us. Sure the Cathay Pilot might start on the A320, but they’ll have 600 regional Pilots & 400 Jet Pilots ahead of them for promotion. They’ll be an F20 until retirement so why would they join?
I don't think anyone in the links looking to jump over anyone in the jet fleet with group seniority nor would it ever get approved. I think that would be an extremely s*** thing for anyone to even consider. If that is the case it's a very select minority.
On the flip side I don't really feel any sympathy for current jet pilots that left NZ to chase the big money overseas that was a decision they made knowing full well that the door back home might shut. While guys who have been working within the links for 5+ years are being severely disadvantaged and big brother is actively excluding people contributing to the companies success and rewarding deserters. Well yes it is a smart business move (only in the short term) but it's extremely disheartening for current employees and leading to continual high turn over rates which is creating a bottleneck where pilots can't be released because of shortages and actually causing the company to sink big money into continuously training pilots to refill roles.

We all know the GOP will never happen and these recent link fossil's that walked in without an interview have ruined it for everyone else behind them by underperforming and failing or needing extra training. The interview should have been left in place that way only people who seriously wanted to join the jets would have applied and not created such a massive back long, now current link pilots are staring down the barrel of 10+ years in regional before transferring across.

[mark247]

the discussion in link flightdecks in the early stages of pathways about PG’s and original DOJ spooked us. (They only have themselves to blame).

Rest assured that was a select group of muppets and definitely not the general view from the 'link flightdecks'

[PaloLuney]

Oh here we go... the Mount Cook pilots are moaning that Air Nelson gets a higher percentage payrise, and yet still end up getting paid less than the Mount Cook pilots?
That absolutely perfectly summarises every Kiwi in aviation .. "But but.... I get this, no one else should be looked after.."

[go123]

Unfortunately the Q300 is a smaller aircraft that doesn’t make the company as much money, simple economics, been that way since it all began

[KiwiAvi8er]

Can’t have been too many pilots “seething”. Ratified unanimously.

[RubberDogPoop]

Can’t have been too many pilots “seething”. Ratified unanimously.

Perhaps their regional union council put out a memo to tell them how to vote....

[KiwiAvi8er]

Perhaps their regional union council put out a memo to tell them how to vote....

They sent out an email telling people to vote, that’s correct. They also emphasised their view and what’s at stake, what’s your problem with that?

[KickinTyres]

Can’t have been too many pilots “seething”. Ratified unanimously.


Poor choice of words. Unanimoulsy would imply there was no opposition. There was plenty of that. They haven't even released the percentage regarding for/against yet. Didn't meet anyone who was seething, just those with a moral objection to it.

[RubberDogPoop]

They sent out an email telling people to vote, that’s correct. They also emphasised their view and what’s at stake, what’s your problem with that?
Wow! That didn't take long!
It's just the last time they did that, they misrepresented the majority - that's my "problem" with that.

[KiwiAvi8er]

Wow! That didn't take long!
It's just the last time they did that, they misrepresented the majority - that's my "problem" with that.

This email was from an admin head, so fairly hard to misrepresent the majority unless he’s schizophrenic.

[ElZilcho]

I can tell you there are a bunch of pissed off off ‘no’ voters who are surprised that the ratification was passed off as an ‘overwhelming’ majority when there are at least 50+ or so who voted no and are considering legal action to get the results-which ALPA seem very hesitant to release-published. Why the hesitancy when they were happy to publish them last time?


It likely has to do with keeping those results from the company.

Besides, I believe nearly 100% of Link Pilots voted which is almost unheard of. 50+ “Pissed off no voters” out of 600 odd would suggest 80-90% voted yes.

[RubberDogPoop]

Kiwiavi8or

Although not within our ATC scope, the firmly held opinion of the majority of Air New Zealand group pilot members is that their important philosophy of one employer, one AirNZ and Regional Reintegration

He represents the majority of link perhaps (though one could narrow that down to an oligarchy at the top of the seniority list), he significantly misrepresented the “Jet” view, and given;

Our Union has never been made up solely of Air NZ Jet pilots; in fact, of the 3000 members that make up NZALPA, the majority are from other airlines, ATC, Flight Service and GA operators. Fair, transparent and unbiased leadership which considers all member interests needs to be at the forefront of strategic Union direction. (my bolding).

he neither represented the best interests of ALPA pilots as a whole, nor the other affected party - the much maligned, evil “Jet” group. If the 1000 or so “Jet” pilots don’t represent the majority interest, ergo the 600 link pilots equally are not the MAJORITY.

I’ll say it again for clarity, the “Jet” group did not hold a firm view that “one employer” meant “jobs for the boys”, without interview. If you’re uncomfortable with a sim as part of the job interview, then you’re going to have a rough time every six months for the rest of your career at AirNZ. 70/30 achieved the “loyalty” aim without upending the entire culture of a fair go for all - even those heathens who had the temerity to get employed by Jetstar/Jet Connect/Virgin/RNZAF when (probably) Link weren’t hiring. Such is the nebulous nature of “group loyalty”.

Put your hand on your heart and tell me you’re happy (as a probable youngster) with what your brethren have done for you?
Now you’re all baling from the RHS and staring down the barrel of low pay cadets into said seat.

(Sincere apologies for mission creep/thread drift!)

[ka_pai]

Slight thread drift but FYI. John Whittaker has stated directly to unions he doesn’t want a GOP list now. Having a jet and regional list gives him his get out of jail card (his words) when future expansion requirements exceeds the ability to take pilots from the link airline. Unions agreed.

[KiwiAvi8er]

I can tell you there are a bunch of pissed off off ‘no’ voters who are surprised that the ratification was passed off as an ‘overwhelming’ majority when there are at least 50+ or so who voted no and are considering legal action to get the results-which ALPA seem very hesitant to release-published. Why the hesitancy when they were happy to publish them last time?


Even if there were 50 pilots who are all telling each other they voted no (what they tell their mates vs how they vote isn’t necessarily the same), with 325 pilots on the ATR that’s around 15% voting no. 85% yes is an overwhelming majority.

Getting legal action?? Give me a break, the results will come out in the wash up anyway. Even if it was 67% for ratification, what changes?

[KiwiAvi8er]

Kiwiavi8or



He represents the majority of link perhaps (though one could narrow that down to an oligarchy at the top of the seniority list), he significantly misrepresented the “Jet” view, and given;

(my bolding).

he neither represented the best interests of ALPA pilots as a whole, nor the other affected party - the much maligned, evil “Jet” group. If the 1000 or so “Jet” pilots don’t represent the majority interest, ergo the 600 link pilots equally are not the MAJORITY.

I’ll say it again for clarity, the “Jet” group did not hold a firm view that “one employer” meant “jobs for the boys”, without interview. If you’re uncomfortable with a sim as part of the job interview, then you’re going to have a rough time every six months for the rest of your career at AirNZ. 70/30 achieved the “loyalty” aim without upending the entire culture of a fair go for all - even those heathens who had the temerity to get employed by Jetstar/Jet Connect/Virgin/RNZAF when (probably) Link weren’t hiring. Such is the nebulous nature of “group loyalty”.

Put your hand on your heart and tell me you’re happy (as a probable youngster) with what your brethren have done for you?
Now you’re all baling from the RHS and staring down the barrel of low pay cadets into said seat.

(Sincere apologies for mission creep/thread drift!)

So it’s the ALPA president who has ruffled your feathers? Fair enough. He didn’t send out the email “telling us how to vote”. Mt Cook/Air Nelson councils exist for their specific membership, they can put out messages as they see fit.

On to the sim ride, having a six monthly sim isn’t specific to Air NZ Pilots!! So that’s not the issue, but as I mentioned earlier the old guard who have never carried out an assessment/interview or sim are already in your ranks.

Have I been negatively affected by the changes to jet recruitment going back to the top of the RSL, yep, lots of us have. There’s always people affected by any decision along those lines. I’m happy with the direction the Links are going in though and can see the bigger picture.

[Kittykat2704]

So it’s the ALPA president who has ruffled your feathers? Fair enough. He didn’t send out the email “telling us how to vote”. Mt Cook/Air Nelson councils exist for their specific membership, they can put out messages as they see fit.

On to the sim ride, having a six monthly sim isn’t specific to Air NZ Pilots!! So that’s not the issue, but as I mentioned earlier the old guard who have never carried out an assessment/interview or sim are already in your ranks.

Have I been negatively affected by the changes to jet recruitment going back to the top of the RSL, yep, lots of us have. There’s always people affected by any decision along those lines. I’m happy with the direction the Links are going in though and can see the bigger picture.
The bigger picture is zero progression for years, and the company glossing over a major fopaux with the RSL which all the entitled link pilots who had done two minutes in the company wanted for "progression" all they've done is killed that for the guys and gals who actually deserve it and opened the door to non motivated geriatrics who can't even pass a type rating. As soon as the music starts again externals will flood in as per the norm, the company has zero loyalty to it's link ranks no matter how many flashy initiatives they wave in your face.

[KiwiAvi8er]

The bigger picture is zero progression for years, and the company glossing over a major fopaux with the RSL which all the entitled link pilots who had done two minutes in the company wanted for "progression" all they've done is killed that for the guys and gals who actually deserve it and opened the door to non motivated geriatrics who can't even pass a type rating. As soon as the music starts again externals will flood in as per the norm, the company has zero loyalty to it's link ranks no matter how many flashy initiatives they wave in your face.

Nope the bigger picture is employment with Air NZ so there won’t be another Eagle debacle. Job security is more important to the people actually affected by it so I can see why you don’t think it matters.

If the company has zero loyalty to Links yet have just taken on direct employment of them please explain how we were better off the ‘old way’? Getting Jet seniority at a ratio of 80:20 to externals seems better than “externals flooding in as per the norm” and not getting seniority.

[ElZilcho]

Nope the bigger picture is employment with Air NZ so there won’t be another Eagle debacle. Job security is more important to the people actually affected by it so I can see why you don’t think it matters.

If the company has zero loyalty to Links yet have just taken on direct employment of them please explain how we were better off the ‘old way’? Getting Jet seniority at a ratio of 80:20 to externals seems better than “externals flooding in as per the norm” and not getting seniority.


In 6 years at Air NZ, I’ve averaged about 20 slots per year on seniority. Even at 80:20, how long will it take number 600 on the RSL to see a Jet?

Lets not beat around the bush, the “Job security” was sold on the back of Eagle by a bunch of Senior Link Pilots to the juniors who didn’t know any better. Most (if not every) recently hired Link Pilots I’ve flown with have admitted they dodged a massive bullet getting hired before RSL came into effect... now that they’ve done the math.

Before externals were hired in droves, Link pilots had their turn, amazing how quickly people forget that... when Link Pilots we’re getting interviews as soon as their bonds were up. Some with as little as 6 months Command time.... others with none!

Just wait until the next expansion (Jet or Link)... we’ll see just how much loyalty is worth when the company is faced with parking aircraft.

A group of tired Link Pilots who can’t pass a jet type rating and require “stress leave on MBF” got their cake, so who cares about the next generations aye?

[RubberDogPoop]

So it's the ALPA President that ruffled your feathers?
Nope, it was the regional admin head who said that the majority of the GROUP were onside with the concept, and pitched that as a fait-accompli to the ATC-ers. They should not be allowed to put out untruths to an unaffected group within the union, who will have no idea, nor care of the impact. ATC as part of the Airline PILOTS Association is an anathema, I understand why it is in a small country like ours but they effectively become a bloc to lobby so that We see no room for factional, orchestrated personal agendas can be advanced.

There won't be another Eagle debacle given you have a RSL - just another "make-weight." #RSL=jobsecurity

On to the sim ride, having a six monthly sim isn’t specific to Air NZ Pilots!! So that’s not the issue only that it was, "why should i have to do a sim" as part of the interview was the common refrain? "I'm entitled"...

the old guard who have never carried out an assessment/interview or sim are already in your ranks. Yep, they flew planes that landed on water and got shot at during Vietnam. Relevance? That was then, this is now. Name another job anywhere in the world where you get a job without an interview? Oh, but the Air Force and ex-Cathay Captains should still do them aye?

How would you better off the "old way"? Well you would not be waiting 10 years for a turboprop command, unable to progress to the AirNZ job you covet so much as you sit in the RHS (or barely into the LHS) while those above you put in an EOI just because "it's the way the game's played", with no real motivation to upsticks and move, nor do an Airbus rating. It's likely you would also make a better fist of the process and not put a massive target on everybody behind you...If you were motivated, not entitled and passed the interview I guarantee you, you would be in sooner than you now will. But have it your way, I'm sure the company isn't 4 steps ahead of you, that cadets into your operation won't put downward pressure on your COS, that in a bust cycle the company won't require a "re"-interview of those waiting 3,4,5 years, and in a boom cycle they'll absolutely detrimentally decimate their own domestic operation in order to keep those disloyal "externals" out and take all of you forthwith.....

[Lindstrim]

It's always good to see this debate start after the votes happened

[Terrorhawk81]

Man, I can’t see why so many of you seem to be in such a rush to get into a jet!? Must be a generational thing!😂 Yes there are quite a few F/Os that have joined the links since the RSL was voted through, but for the majority of them joining with some of their experience worrying about when you’ll get a jet job should be further down the priority list.........

[KiwiAvi8er]

It's always good to see this debate start after the votes happened

They’re not debating the RANCAP though so the fact voting closed on that’s not an issue. Career pathways, which did have it’s own thread on here is what’s getting bashed to death.

Taking contract advice from people with a see through agenda will clearly put you in good shape though :ok:

[KiwiAvi8er]

In 6 years at Air NZ, I’ve averaged about 20 slots per year on seniority. Even at 80:20, how long will it take number 600 on the RSL to see a Jet?

Being last on a list of 600 is going to take forever to get on the company jet fleet regardless, I'm sure most of them plan on getting an ATPL and leaving if they need to expedite themselves in to a jet.

Lets not beat around the bush, the “Job security” was sold on the back of Eagle by a bunch of Senior Link Pilots to the juniors who didn’t know any better. Most (if not every) recently hired Link Pilots I’ve flown with have admitted they dodged a massive bullet getting hired before RSL came into effect... now that they’ve done the math.

Shock horror, guys who were hired just prior to the RSL process are happy they got in before it changed. That isn't a startling revelation....

Before externals were hired in droves, Link pilots had their turn, amazing how quickly people forget that... when Link Pilots we’re getting interviews as soon as their bonds were up. Some with as little as 6 months Command time.... others with none!

Just wait until the next expansion (Jet or Link)... we’ll see just how much loyalty is worth when the company is faced with parking aircraft.

A group of tired Link Pilots who can’t pass a jet type rating and require “stress leave on MBF” got their cake, so who cares about the next generations aye?

How many haven't passed a type rating out of interest since you keep bringing it up? I know of one person.....there's nothing like a stereotype and innuendo though.

[Kittykat2704]

Being last on a list of 600 is going to take forever to get on the company jet fleet regardless, I'm sure most of them plan on getting an ATPL and leaving if they need to expedite themselves in to a jet.



Shock horror, guys who were hired just prior to the RSL process are happy they got in before it changed. That isn't a startling revelation....



How many haven't passed a type rating out of interest since you keep bringing it up? I know of one person.....there's nothing like a stereotype and innuendo though.

Some cold hard truths seem to hurt a wee bit do they? Let's hope the RSL works and keeps you far from jet for years to come.

[KiwiAvi8er]

Some cold hard truths seem to hurt a wee bit do they? Let's hope the RSL works and keeps you far from jet for years to come.

We’ll see. It must have been painful having a start taken away from you with the lockout period coming in to force?

[empacher48]

Wow, from an outsider this is starting to sound a lot like some jet pilots giving the impression they are gods because they have the jet job and the turboprop guys don't, therefore all turboprop guys don't deserve the job. While the turboprop guys are throwing their toys out of the cots because even or though the planes are painted the same, wear the same uniform and soon to be under the same AOC, should be recognised as part of Air New Zealand.

Meanwhile I'm sure the HR types are rubbing their hands in glee, why have 1,600 pilots all on one side (which would be an awesome force to be reckoned with when it comes to negotiating) against just us. When they can divide them all and let them fight amongst themselves.

Keep it up guys, I'm enjoying the entertainment.

[Kittykat2704]

We’ll see. It must have been painful having a start taken away from you with the lockout period coming in to force?
😂 I'm not too sure what your angle is here. 1 a lockout period is not applicable considering I've never stepped foot into a link flight deck. 2 the arrogance is unbelievable.

[27/09]

Lol, seriously? Money dude. The new link salary that old mates voted through ain't going to pay the mortgage in Auckland/Wellington.
I don't know how the salary has ever measured up with respect to Auckland/Wellington mortgages. However I do know basing Link crew in these cities has never been a recipe for keeping pilots at the Links. Why would you want to live in either place on a turbo prop salary when you could earn a jet salary? The move a few years ago to shift away from regional bases was a very dumb idea.

[27/09]

Wow, from an outsider this is starting to sound a lot like some jet pilots giving the impression they are gods because they have the jet job and the turboprop guys don't, therefore all turboprop guys don't deserve the job. While the turboprop guys are throwing their toys out of the cots because even or though the planes are painted the same, wear the same uniform and soon to be under the same AOC, should be recognised as part of Air New Zealand.

Got it in one.

[kiwipilot1]

I believe these issues go a bit deeper than simply having external Jet Pilots from other carriers getting the jobs in Air NZ instead of the Link Pilots. If it were as simple as that then it would have ruffled a few Link Pilots feathers but we wouldn't have seen the retention issues that has been experienced over the last 3-4 years.

The first problem was the decision to close the regional bases. We saw the Napier Q300 base closed with forced moves for all involved, the remaining regional bases were all told "you're on borrowed time and will be next".

The only bases on offer for all new hires, and new commands was AKL,WLG and if you were lucky CHC. That was it.

The second problem was the introduction of the new schedule in the later part of 2016 which instantly saw time away from base skyrocket. Some Pilots were doing 280-300 hours every 28 days capture time and going away for 2-3 nights at a time. Due to the scaling back of all regional bases through natural attrition allot of the overnights were in places where there was a base.


The expansion of Mount Cook and the Jet fleet simultaneously meant that there was no choice but to take external Jet Pilots from other operators. This created a situation where there was no negative effect to leave the Links - better pay which was important for the main cities, better lifestyle and probably a quicker route to Air NZ Jet anyway.

The merger and the reintroduction of regional bases is definitely a good thing, but it think it needs to go a step further. Open up regional bases in more places similar to the old Eagle footprint, this will allow Pilots to live pretty much anywhere (within reason), the more career driven ones will naturally take commands in the less desirable bases and move onto the Jets sooner, the lifestylers will stay in the regions and wait for their command there.

More bases means less overnights and more day duties which reduces the time away from home for everyone. Keep the 1 year Left seat requirement to qualify for Tag and Release on the Jet Fleet. Do that and you will ensure even number 600 on the list will probably stay, because if someone way down the list gets a quick command in a main centre then you'll find they won't be number 600 in line for a Jet job as they will jump all the ones choosing a lifestyle base over career progression.

[zinny]

Still cannot understand why alpa and the pilots have ratified this New contract. Defies belief. Firstly all incoming ATR pilots being payed substantially less then existing pilots on a crappy blended rate. From what I’ve seen, up to $10,000 difference in the f/o ranks and up to $25,000 in the captain ranks. Yes, this blended rate will eventually disappear when the dash disappears. But how long will this be. Adds up to a lot of lost income in a short space of time. And secondly, introducing an even lower graduate pilot salary into the contract.this to me goes against everything that the union and pilots should be standing for. No one should be worse off than before. There was already a starting salary in the links. No need to negotiate a c scale into the contract! When the company tried to introduce a graduate pilot salary into the jet fleet they were told bluntly from members, no way in hell. We have a starting year 1 salary in the contract thank you very much.

[yellowelly]

Actually, the weight size cost wah means that the Q300 makes a **** load more money than the Air NZ 787 !!
you dipstick




Unfortunately the Q300 is a smaller aircraft that doesn’t make the company as much money, simple economics, been that way since it all began

[yellowelly]

Mate...
Have you forgotten how NZ aviation works ?

[yellowelly]

Mate,
Obfuscated only to uneducated like you.
Are you reading the same contract ******** ?
Really