ATC Jobs

[tcm1707]

Anyone know of anywhere hiring at the moment? ADI only here.

[chevvron]

Try Carlisle or HIAL..

[Dan Dare]

I don’t know any UK tower which is fully staffed. Take your pick!

[Rwy1234]

Although the ATC staff at the coal face might consider their units to be in need of staff (myself included), often is the case that the unit management consider otherwise which is probably why there are so few job adverts out there currently.

[jmmoric]

Although the ATC staff at the coal face might consider their units to be in need of staff (myself included), often is the case that the unit management consider otherwise which is probably why there are so few job adverts out there currently.

The question is often, is it worth it to hire more staff versus paying the current staff overtime...

[Will_McKenzie]

Anyone know of anywhere hiring at the moment? ADI only here.
A very quick Google (other search engines are available) show Gatwick, Leeds, High Wycombe, Dubai (and DWC) and Abu Dhabi.
Liverpool are also recruiting for an ATSA which with an ADI ticket you may well get the chance to progress as I am led to believe several of their controllers were previously ATSAs.
Good luck!

[mike current]

I don’t know any UK tower which is fully staffed. Take your pick!

Not as simple as that. Quite the opposite.

[chevvron]

I wish the OP well in securing a job but, as mike current says, it's not simply a case of finding a vacancy. What may be more important is the type and extent of experience you have to offer.
He said 'ADI only' but surely he must have ADV too so Wycombe or Redhill.
Wycombe are short staffed; the contract is operated by Safeskys but their website is down at the moment so he could try e-mail [email protected]

[Jim59]

Look at the NOTAMs. Airfields which are closed for 2 hour periods gives a clue.

[chevvron]

Look at the NOTAMs. Airfields which are closed for 2 hour periods gives a clue.
Shouldn't that read 'open for 2 hour periods' (then closed for 30 min)?
Controllers MUST have a 30 min rest break for every 2 hours of operational duty except for some units classed as 'busy' where the operational duty period is reduced.

[tcm1707]

Thanks all! There are a few places mentioned here that I hadn't noticed on my job searches. Going to have a look into a few.

[dmcg]

Safeskys under Airpartner umbrella since Sep 2017. Would suggest that’s why their website is unavailable.

[chevvron]

Safeskys under Airpartner umbrella since Sep 2017. Would suggest that’s why their website is unavailable.

Yes I've been in contact with them; they say they're currently 're-branding'; it was said at the time to be a merger but as far as I can see it was a takeover as in SERCO taking over IAL when they discovered how lucrative some ATC contracts (but not all) could be.
The website was still there about 3 months ago.

[Packer27L]

How are they doing for numbers at Birmingham and Edinburgh now they have fallen out of the NATS fold? Another thread on here about Air Nav Solutions suggests they are struggling at Gatters...

[Glamdring]

How are they doing for numbers at Birmingham and Edinburgh now they have fallen out of the NATS fold? Another thread on here about Air Nav Solutions suggests they are struggling at Gatters...

Overstaffed at EDI. With more trainees arriving next year.

[Mooncrest]

Leeds Bradford is recruiting for a new ATS Manager.

[highwideandugly]

Newcastle is very interesting at the moment!

[chevvron]

Leeds Bradford is recruiting for a new ATS Manager.
Haven't they got a controller they can promote to the post or is the manager not required to have an ATCO licence?

[N90-EWR]

I sure hope things are better over there than here. The typical FAA managers are the incompetent controllers that get "promoted" away from the operation. :rolleyes:

[kcockayne]

I sure hope things are better over there than here. The typical FAA managers are the incompetent controllers that get "promoted" away from the operation. :rolleyes:
Isn’t that the case everywhere ? I spent 38 years in ATC & the vast majority - but not all - of the managers that I came across were of “ lesser ability” when it came to actual controlling .

[escaped.atco]

Newcastle is very interesting at the moment!
Why? Lack of staff?

[LookingForAJob]

Isn’t that the case everywhere ? I spent 38 years in ATC & the vast majority - but not all - of the managers that I came across were of “ lesser ability” when it came to actual controlling .Very true.

But the really important question is were they any good as managers?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Usually NO!

[kcockayne]

Very true.

But the really important question is were they any good as managers?
In my view, some of them were good managers. These tended to be the ones who delegated a lot of their tasks; or those who involved operational ATCOs in working/project groups. I suppose that the uncharitable would claim that this was because they were not “up to the job” themselves ! The last ten years , or so, of my career did involve myself & a lot of , what I would call, “good operational ATCOS” working closely with the SATCO on important projects. Nevertheless, there were still those “on the shop floor” who found fault with the individual concerned - principally because he was not fully doing the job that he was paid for ! You just can’t win !

[Mooncrest]

Haven't they got a controller they can promote to the post or is the manager not required to have an ATCO licence?
I don't know chevron. I believe LBA is still short-staffed (I seem to talk to the same voices every time I'm on duty) so there may be reluctance to divert an operational ATCO or WM from the tower to the office. The most recent ATSM was an ATCO but he was purely office only.

[Jay Doubleyou]

"In ATC, when heads roll, they roll uphill!" I think I'm quoting correctly from the long lost ATC magazine "On Watch" about fifty years ago, in turn quoting, I think, a Canadian source. You, Keith, should know how true that was, given the procession of the incompetent, the lying, the self-serving and the stupid we had to work with and for! I may not be the "Ace of the Base" but my career was blocked by a person I considered, with some justification and staff agreement, was most incompetent operational controller in history!

[chevvron]

"In ATC, when heads roll, they roll uphill!" I think I'm quoting correctly from the long lost ATC magazine "On Watch" about fifty years ago, in turn quoting, I think, a Canadian source. You, Keith, should know how true that was, given the procession of the incompetent, the lying, the self-serving and the stupid we had to work with and for! I may not be the "Ace of the Base" but my career was blocked by a person I considered, with some justification and staff agreement, was most incompetent operational controller in history!
It was a well known saying when NATS was still part of the Civil Service (pre 1975) that you can't sack a civil servant so you promote them and post them.
My career was blocked by a person I considered, with some justification and staff agreement, was the most incompetent ATS manager in history.https://www.pprune.org/images/icons/46.gif

[mike current]

Back on the subject of ATC jobs...

https://www.jobtrain.co.uk/newcastleairport/vacancies.aspx?fbclid=IwAR0WJCo6eZf4oS73sFBXH28iOxjG8IbTJvw6 dYB_iDcmfik4KByh1lRR5h4

[Jay Doubleyou]

Thanks for your PM last week! I thoroughly agree with what you said but didn't have much success in replying by private message, and I don't think I should say anything more on the public forum!

[Red Four]

And at Southend now:
ATCO (https://d1z15fh6odiy9s.cloudfront.net/files/gf-106-external-vacancy-notice-atco-66aa91c2.pdf)
Head of ATS (https://d1z15fh6odiy9s.cloudfront.net/files/gf-106-external-vacancy-notice-head-of-ats-bdf46c7a.pdf)

[tcm1707]

And at Southend now:
ATCO (https://d1z15fh6odiy9s.cloudfront.net/files/gf-106-external-vacancy-notice-atco-66aa91c2.pdf)
Head of ATS (https://d1z15fh6odiy9s.cloudfront.net/files/gf-106-external-vacancy-notice-head-of-ats-bdf46c7a.pdf)

Brilliant thanks!

[tcm1707]

Anyone know what's going on at Newcastle? Heard they were doing interviews this week.

[frilsy]

They were advertising for a tower position and it seems to be the strangest situation. An ex colleague of mine said There was no Satco or training department member at the interview, it was carried out by HR and an operations manager. So no scenarios or sim runs.....

[Digby15]

Anyone know what's going on at Newcastle? Heard they were doing interviews this week.

No, really, what IS going on at Newcastle???
Apparently they’ve appointed a new SATCO that is a single rated controller with less than 5 years ATC experience. Obvious not bothered about knowledge and experience, if you want to climb the ladder, head up there!!!!

[highwideandugly]

Not what you know..but who you know?

[Rwy1234]

No, really, what IS going on at Newcastle???
Apparently they’ve appointed a new SATCO that is a single rated controller with less than 5 years ATC experience. Obvious not bothered about knowledge and experience, if you want to climb the ladder, head up there!!!!

Someone has a grudge.

[highwideandugly]

Im sure due diligence by the interview team has been done and the successful candidate has ticked all the appropriate boxes?

[therocketscientist]

Leeds/Bradford are hiring, does anybody know anything about the conditions there?

[highwideandugly]

Looking for a job.....Said it before but still valid - what matters is whether they can manage a unit....un quote,


However ,with less than five years experience and one rating...the candidate must have shown some amazing qualities to
impress and pass such an intense interview? Wonder if he/she can sort Brexit out for us all?

[mike current]

Maybe no one out of the more experienced staff wants the job?

Besides. 5 years or thereabouts is plenty to be a SATCO.

[10 DME ARC]

NCL SATCO - 5 years experience I am sorry is no where near enough for a complex unit like NCL and especially with one rating! Successful NCL SATCO's of the past 10-15 years have hung in long enough to land a job in SRG Stirling and moved on. Others did not..... I would love to be proved wrong but I am afraid this is the out come of NCL not willing to pay the going rate for an experienced SATCO! Only a few years ago they only offered bottom of radar scale to a very experienced NATS ATCO who of course refused the job which would have meant a massive wage drop and again the job went to a handy MME ATCO!!

[Digby15]

Someone has a grudge.

No grudge to be had as I don’t know them!

Merely an observation that in my opinion knowledge and experience count for a lot (although I do admit it does not always guarantee managerial skills!).
In a roundabout way also shows there’s no dead men’s shoes at Newcastle, A’s is so often the case.

[chevvron]

Maybe no one out of the more experienced staff wants the job?

Besides. 5 years or thereabouts is plenty to be a SATCO.
I once went to an airfield which had offered me a job to find the Man ATS was not only single rated but had less than 12 months experience (he'd got his licence at a non NATS college, gone to an airfield, validated and six weeks later the airfield closed).
I didn't take the job.

[Mooncrest]

Leeds/Bradford are hiring, does anybody know anything about the conditions there?
I work at Leeds Bradford, although not in ATC, I confess. I can tell you the following which may or may not be helpful. It's an H24 operation, albeit fairly quiet at night from now until late March. Control tower dates back to 1967, last VCR refurbishment was in 2005 with Schmid voice switch. Radar room redesigned and rebuilt (below VCR) about three years ago - very smart ! Plessey Watchman primary radar with modern processing systems. A fair few locally trained ATCOs on the staff, including at least two Watch Managers. I'm not sure if there is a unit manager or SATCO in place at the moment. Also, LBA is on top of a hill so gets whatever weather the Atlantic and the Pennines can throw at it ! On the plus side, the airfield can be sitting in the clear while everywhere else is shrouded in fog.

HTH.

[Artas]

IAA recruiting for Dublin but PPRUNE won't let me publish the url.

[2 sheds]

chevvron wrote:
(he'd got his licence at a non NATS college,...
...and your point about a "non-NATS" college?

2 s

[Rwy1234]

I once went to an airfield which had offered me a job to find the Man ATS was not only single rated but had less than 12 months experience (he'd got his licence at a non NATS college, gone to an airfield, validated and six weeks later the airfield closed).
I didn't take the job.

Some MATS don’t hold any kind of license. What’s the problem with non-NATS single rated ATCOs and Managers?

It would appear this airfield had a lucky escape.

[whitelighter]

Not what you know..but who you know?

not what you know but who you are dating more like...

[escaped.atco]

I really hate it when those unwashed non-NATS controllers try to get ideas about promotions and management, I mean really - do these types not know their place in life?:ugh:

[escaped.atco]

Cant find any reference to this one, I know quite a few ex colleagues who will be very interested though if its true! IAA recruiting for Dublin but PPRUNE won't let me publish the url.

Job Seeker - if you bathed last week then you're obviously senior management! What really matters though is the colour of your licence. Is it the yellow one you get after training with NATS? Or is it the yellow one you get after training in a non-NATS college? Hang on, surely that can't be right, must be different shades of yellow at least.....:E

[mike current]

..or someone in another thread suggesting that someone in Barcelona was pushing a tight gap therefore they must be ex Gatwick or Stansted 😂😂😂

[davys747]

IAA recruiting for Dublin but PPRUNE won't let me publish the url.

I cannot find this job advertised on the IAA website. Where did you find the advertisement? I'm sure, given enough details, we could all find it, even if you can't provide the direct URL.

Cheers.

[Topcover]

https://irelandwestairport.com/about_us#book5/page1AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL OFFICERThis is an exciting opportunity to join Ireland’s fourth largest airport with annual passenger numbers of 800,000+. The airport operates Flights to 20+ international destinations and is served by major European airline carriers Aer Lingus, Flybe, Lauda and Ryanair as well as leading charter and Private jet operators providing Tower and Approach services.

Applicants should apply online, attaching their Curriculum Vitae, and in the message box state briefly their interest in the job and current salary. Only applicants successful at initial screening will be contacted directly by the airport.

Queries regarding the role can be made by e-mail to [email protected]

[koper7s]

I have the flight information service officer licence. I don 't think it will be enough but it tried anyway. I always hope they offer me a training because of my previous experience in atc haha.

[lethalindu]

Any openings in ME for ACS?

[Neo380]

Hi tcm1707, pm me if you're still looking for a role.

=======================

Until you have a posting history you don't have access to private messaging and adding urls.

[highwideandugly]

Said it before but still valid - what matters is whether they can manage a unit.


probably quite easy when you have no ATCO,s !

[therocketscientist]

I work at Leeds Bradford, although not in ATC, I confess. I can tell you the following which may or may not be helpful. It's an H24 operation, albeit fairly quiet at night from now until late March. Control tower dates back to 1967, last VCR refurbishment was in 2005 with Schmid voice switch. Radar room redesigned and rebuilt (below VCR) about three years ago - very smart ! Plessey Watchman primary radar with modern processing systems. A fair few locally trained ATCOs on the staff, including at least two Watch Managers. I'm not sure if there is a unit manager or SATCO in place at the moment. Also, LBA is on top of a hill so gets whatever weather the Atlantic and the Pennines can throw at it ! On the plus side, the airfield can be sitting in the clear while everywhere else is shrouded in fog.

HTH.

Just seen this, thank you for your insight.

[therocketscientist]

https://krb-sjobs.brassring.com/TGnewUI/Search/home/HomeWithPreLoad?PageType=JobDetails&partnerid=30041&siteid=5720&Areq=2994BR&fbclid=IwAR3ZrpnfW2YzjMZ2odiRoMTk1XG49lNhYA3OSouEy5CT51LXKFT 8KKUSxFk&codes=Facebook#jobDetails=1616177_5720

[highwideandugly]

More jobs at Newcastle apparently..sounds fun up there!

[DeanCross]

Nothing on their website as yet... do you know what's coming available?

Cheers

DCS

[chevvron]

https://krb-sjobs.brassring.com/TGnewUI/Search/home/HomeWithPreLoad?PageType=JobDetails&partnerid=30041&siteid=5720&Areq=2994BR&fbclid=IwAR3ZrpnfW2YzjMZ2odiRoMTk1XG49lNhYA3OSouEy5CT51LXKFT 8KKUSxFk&codes=Facebook#jobDetails=1616177_5720 (https://krb-sjobs.brassring.com/TGnewUI/Search/home/HomeWithPreLoad?PageType=JobDetails&partnerid=30041&siteid=5 720&Areq=2994BR&fbclid=IwAR3ZrpnfW2YzjMZ2odiRoMTk1XG49lNhYA3 OSouEy5CT51LXKFT8KKUSxFk&codes=Facebook#jobDetails=1616177_5 720)
Ooooh if I was 10 years younger!!
Before NATS got the contract, we had a controller at Farnborough who resigned from NATS for a job in Gib, (can't remember if it was SERCo or Airwork) then when NATS got the contract, they re-employed him!
NB: Not sure but I think you need a PAR endorsement for APS at Gib.

[Nimmer]

Ooooh if I was 10 years younger!!
Before NATS got the contract, we had a controller at Farnborough who resigned from NATS for a job in Gib, (can't remember if it was SERCo or Airwork) then when NATS got the contract, they re-employed him!
NB: Not sure but I think you need a PAR endorsement for APS at Gib.


10 years younger, looking at your age I think you mean 30 years!!

[mike current]

How many movements a day at GIB? About 10?

[AyrTC]

I have always thought of Gib as the Wick of the Mediterranean! Maybe HIAL should look into taking it over. :-)
Rgds
AyrTC

[LookingForAJob]

Before NATS got the contract, we had a controller at Farnborough who resigned from NATS for a job in Gib, (can't remember if it was SERCo or Airwork) then when NATS got the contract, they re-employed him!There are people who got chopped during training by NATS ‘cos they were ‘not good enough’ who have ended up back with them at some later date. And I believe not all were happy with that.

[chevvron]

At Farnborough, we often got people who had been 'streamed' to Area Radar (NERL) originally, got chopped and were offered a post in NSL at an aerodrome. Course they only had an ADV/ADI rating so then (when and if they gained a C of C in the tower) they had to be sent on an APS course.
NATS (as far as I know) never 'chopped' a student in recent years (since about 1995) without giving them a second chance, even if it was just to offer them an ATSA post.
Different in the ATCO Cadet days, you never got a second chance; if you had been a assistant prior to getting an ATCO Cadet course, you were usually offered your old job back but if you were direct entry, you were usually chopped completely even if you had got one rating and that's where IAL (nowadays SERCO) and others got a lot of their controllers.

[mike current]

NATS (as far as I know) never 'chopped' a student in recent years (since about 1995) without giving them a second chance, even if it was just to offer them an ATSA post.


That's out of date and incorrect information.

[chevvron]

That's out of date and incorrect information.
Statement from personal experience.
OK you post the correct info then.

[mike current]

Statement from personal experience.
OK you post the correct info then.
I can think of at least 8 people I know personally that got "chopped" with no second chance or alternative offer. (2008 onwards). Most at college stage but some at unit training too.

[Rwy1234]

I can think of at least 8 people I know personally that got "chopped" with no second chance or alternative offer. (2008 onwards). Most at college stage but some at unit training too.

I also know many. I can’t put an exact number on it but at least two were chopped during college and the week after went up the road to the non NATS college and passed and since validated at units and those chopped from unit training have since validated at non NATS units (ironically some now working at units that used to be operated by NATS), I currently work with at least 4 that this happened to but have known several others.

[therocketscientist]

Ooooh if I was 10 years younger!!
Before NATS got the contract, we had a controller at Farnborough who resigned from NATS for a job in Gib, (can't remember if it was SERCo or Airwork) then when NATS got the contract, they re-employed him!
NB: Not sure but I think you need a PAR endorsement for APS at Gib.

I can't imagine many people applied... beggars can't be choosers so I don't think they'd turn you down just because of the age.
And no PAR endorsement needed, just SRA.

How many movements a day at GIB? About 10?

Slightly more than that but yes about right.

[Talkdownman]

no PAR endorsement needed, just SRA
As I don't know / CBA where to look, a serious Q: Is 'SRA' an APS 'bolt-on endorsement' these days?

[Flying184]

Yes - it is a Rating Endorsement

[chevvron]

As I don't know / CBA where to look, a serious Q: Is 'SRA' an APS 'bolt-on endorsement' these days?
Page 2 of your licence lists all the endorsements.

[AyrTC]

CAP 744 page 10 onwards describes all the fun “bolt on’s” ( licence endorsements ) you can add to a Radar rating.

Rgds
AyrTC

[2 sheds]

On a point of order, Serco is written thus - not as SERCO or even SERCo. Though it was better when it was spelled as IAL.

2 s

[frilsy]

They were advertising for radar controllers on the airport website but I think it might have closed now. Worth contacting them anyway as I’ve heard they’ve lost 5 ATCOS in the last 6 months with another 3 on top working notice. Not sure that means it’s a great place to go at the moment but if you and they are desperate you never know.

Nothing on their website as yet... do you know what's coming available?

Cheers

DCS

[chevvron]

They were advertising for radar controllers on the airport website but I think it might have closed now. Worth contacting them anyway as I’ve heard they’ve lost 5 ATCOS in the last 6 months with another 3 on top working notice. Not sure that means it’s a great place to go at the moment but if you and they are desperate you never know.



Who were advertising?

[highwideandugly]

Think it’s Newcastle..lost a load of atcos and more to go..something not right up there?

[frilsy]

Who were advertising?

sorry meant to say Newcastle

[mike current]

Where are all these ATCOs going? There aren't that many jobs out there.

[10 DME ARC]

Mike, moving on (NCL opens lots of places) and retirement..... Why?? I can only guess we go back to the appointment of the present SATCO/MATC??

[chevvron]

Where are all these ATCOs going? There aren't that many jobs out there.
NATS are encouraging VRs leaving them short of staff; my theory is it's the beancounters who think getting rid of an experienced controller at the top of the salary scale and replacing them with someone lower down and less experienced is a good idea. Well on paper it might look good, but they forget that once someone completes (say) Area Radar training at the college, they still won't be able to control 'real' trafficon their own for about a year due to the time it takes to complete OJT at an operational unt.
There are jobs out there but both RAF and civil ATC units are short of radar controllers at the moment and however many they train there are inevitably some failures during training. There is of course the privately operated college at Staverton but you have to pay for instruction there and it's not cheap..

[brianj]

And just think of all the ramifications of Scottish independence. NATS could be flush with ATCO’s if many come back to keep in the CAA Pension Scheme!

[mike current]

Sorry I don't think my post was very clear.

What I meant was:
It's been mentioned 8 ATCOs have or are in the process of leaving Newcastle.
Nats train their own cadets. So do ANS. (A few exceptions for Gatwick).
That leaves only a few places like Liverpool, Leeds and Birmingham among the "larger" airports.

I have friends at many UK airports and I haven't heard of many ex-Newcastle new colleagues.

I am just curious where are 8 ATCOs with previous experience might be going, unless it's smaller units (and possibly a pay cut) or leaving the UK.

[chevvron]

Sorry I don't think my post was very clear.

What I meant was:
It's been mentioned 8 ATCOs have or are in the process of leaving Newcastle.
Nats train their own cadets. So do ANS. (A few exceptions for Gatwick).
That leaves only a few places like Liverpool, Leeds and Birmingham among the "larger" airports.

I have friends at many UK airports and I haven't heard of many ex-Newcastle new colleagues.

I am just curious where are 8 ATCOs with previous experience might be going, unless it's smaller units (and possibly a pay cut) or leaving the UK.
There's a 'word of mouth' trawl (I've seen nothing on paper) for Manston; possible start date early 2022 and the middle east (eg Abu Dhabi) seems to have a high turnover.

[Gonzo]

NATS are encouraging VRs leaving them short of staff; my theory is it's the beancounters who think getting rid of an experienced controller at the top of the salary scale and replacing them with someone lower down and less experienced is a good idea. Well on paper it might look good, but they forget that once someone completes (say) Area Radar training at the college, they still won't be able to control 'real' trafficon their own for about a year due to the time it takes to complete OJT at an operational unt.
There are jobs out there but both RAF and civil ATC units are short of radar controllers at the moment and however many they train there are inevitably some failures during training. There is of course the privately operated college at Staverton but you have to pay for instruction there and it's not cheap..

Are NATS encouraging VR? Thought that had all stopped awhile ago.

[Mad As A Mad Thing]

Are NATS encouraging VR? Thought that had all stopped awhile ago.
where do I sign up? :)

[mike current]

There's a 'word of mouth' trawl (I've seen nothing on paper) for Manston;

All applicants please form an orderly queue...

[chevvron]

Maybe they've seen the error of their ways.

[Gonzo]

Happy to be corrected but AFAIK there’s been no VR approved for over 4 years, possibly longer.

[chevvron]

Happy to be corrected but AFAIK there’s been no VR approved for over 4 years, possibly longer.

Last one I heard of from Farnborough was in about 2013/2014.
He was a friend of mine, at the top of the Band 2 scale, 55 years old and quite happy to stay until he reached 60, but he said 'NATS made him an offer he couldn't refuse' which I presume meant monetarily, so he was going at the end of that year.

[Gonzo]

Can I ask why you posted this then? It’s based on 2013/14 yet implies it’s current, based on up to date info......things have changed a great deal since then.

NATS are encouraging VRs leaving them short of staff; my theory is it's the beancounters who think getting rid of an experienced controller at the top of the salary scale and replacing them with someone lower down and less experienced is a good idea. Well on paper it might look good, but they forget that once someone completes (say) Area Radar training at the college, they still won't be able to control 'real' trafficon their own for about a year due to the time it takes to complete OJT at an operational unt.

[2 sheds]

mike current wrote:
Nats train their own cadets.
They are not "cadets" - and at the moment, for aerodrome and approach radar units, no they don't!

2 s

[mike current]

mike current wrote:

They are not "cadets" - and at the moment, for aerodrome and approach radar units, no they don't!

2 s
Semantics.
TATC's, trainees, students. Whatever you want to call it. I was one of them.

What do you mean they don't?
The training might be outsourced but they're still Nats trainees.

[Packer27L]

The training might be outsourced but they're still Nats trainees.
Semantics. They are employees of NATS therefore NATS trainees. But are they trained by NATS instructors, who are ex-NATS controllers (or active ‘rovies’), are they taught NATS defensive controlling techniques and NATS business practices?

How are the folks from the ANS college getting on? I haven’t heard from any of my old Gatters friends recently?

[mike current]

Both of you missed my point completely. My post #91 was about jobs and recruitment. Someone mentioned 8 ATCOs leaving Newcastle and I was wondering what jobs might be available in the UK given that Nats and ANS run their own direct recruitment, and that would rule out a lot of units to apply for.

That was all. I don't recall at any point questioning the quality, format or location of training.

[AAK10]

See HIAL careers page

[2 sheds]

Not missing the point at all - point duly taken! Merely commenting on some of the detail - semantics by all means if you wish. Not sure what the gist of Packer27L's point is about Nats instructors, "Nats" defensive techniques and business practices - they have quite enough to do on the (approved) BTC, ADI and APS courses, one after the other!

2 s

[chevvron]

Not missing the point at all - point duly taken! Merely commenting on some of the detail - semantics by all means if you wish. Not sure what the gist of Packer27L's point is about Nats instructors, "Nats" defensive techniques and business practices - they have quite enough to do on the (approved) BTC, ADI and APS courses, one after the other!

2 s
You forgot to mention they're also on Band 5 salary scale; even that couldn't tempt me to the college on the numerous times it was offered to me; I never had the patience to teach people and had I taken the job, I'd soon be begging to go back to an operational unit; instructors at the college must have immense patience to do the job they do.

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

.... Not sure what the gist of Packer27L's point is about Nats instructors, "Nats" defensive techniques and business practices....

2 s

I think its the NATS superiority complex..

[2 sheds]

You forgot to mention they're also on Band 5 salary scale; even that couldn't tempt me to the college on the numerous times it was offered to me; I never had the patience to teach people and had I taken the job, I'd soon be begging to go back to an operational unit; instructors at the college must have immense patience to do the job they do.

I think that you have missed the point. Who is on Band 5, and which college? The subject matter of my "semantics" was that many Nats trainees are currently trained outside Nats.

2 s

[chevvron]

Let's hope you never did OJTI then!
I did used to do OJT both before and after 'approved courses' were required; held an OJTI 'blue book' too but I gave up when they decided to give 'extra' payments to those who did it; some only did it just to get this extra payment and weren't too good at it either.
Got fed up with trainees straight from the college querying everything I told them and not reading local instructions as well.

[escaped.atco]

Semantics. They are employees of NATS therefore NATS trainees. But are they trained by NATS instructors, who are ex-NATS controllers (or active ‘rovies’), are they taught NATS defensive controlling techniques and NATS business practices?

How are the folks from the ANS college getting on? I haven’t heard from any of my old Gatters friends recently?

I am led to believe they are no longer trainees but apprentices.

I really hope this post from Packer is tongue in cheek, is the implication that unless they are trained by NATS instructors and brainwashed/indoctrinated in NATS business practises and taught NATS defensive techniques, they are some sort of substandard controller? Does Packer realise there is a world outside of NATS where perfectly sane and competent controllers have been plying their trade and absolute horror, training other controllers, for a long time without telling the world they are the best? In my career I have worked with and trained some fantastic NATS controllers, I have also seen some that were borderline incompetent and should never have seen a licence. Likewise I could say the same for controllers that have been through an independent system and have never seen a NATS college.

The attitude that the only good controller is a NATS trained controller is both arrogant and ignorant.

Rant over, now back to the thread.

[AAK10]

I am led to believe they are no longer trainees but apprentices.

I really hope this post from Packer is tongue in cheek, is the implication that unless they are trained by NATS instructors and brainwashed/indoctrinated in NATS business practises and taught NATS defensive techniques, they are some sort of substandard controller? Does Packer realise there is a world outside of NATS where perfectly sane and competent controllers have been plying their trade and absolute horror, training other controllers, for a long time without telling the world they are the best? In my career I have worked with and trained some fantastic NATS controllers, I have also seen some that were borderline incompetent and should never have seen a licence. Likewise I could say the same for controllers that have been through an independent system and have never seen a NATS college.

The attitude that the only good controller is a NATS trained controller is both arrogant and ignorant.

Rant over, now back to the thread.



Well said
OJT should be something that the ATCO wants to do and is invested in the outcome, not just as another allowance. That said the unit still needs to function so a balancing act is often required!

[kcockayne]

Some of the very best ATCOS I ever saw in action were those I met in Coventry, 2007/08. Working effectively in a Class G , very busy, environment whilst trying to provide standard separation to high speed IFR commercial aircraft takes some doing. There are plenty of NATS controllers who would not take kindly to this scenario !

[chevvron]

Some of the very best ATCOS I ever saw in action were those I met in Coventry, 2007/08. Working effectively in a Class G , very busy, environment whilst trying to provide standard separation to high speed IFR commercial aircraft takes some doing. There are plenty of NATS controllers who would not take kindly to this scenario !
After a 3 year cadet course with NATS (actually NATCS in those days) I was posted to Farnborough, where the aircraft weren't speed limited unlike IFR commercial flights in the then equivalent of Class G airspace; I was easily able to adapt to Buccaneers, Hunters and Lightnings flashing round low level at up to 550kts mixing it with slower traffic out of Blackbushe, Fairoaks and White Waltham but later trainees straight out of the college from about 1990 seemed to have great trouble doing so, often ignoring conflicting traffic if it wasn't showing SSR.

[mike current]

After a 3 year cadet course with NATS (actually NATCS in those days) I was posted to Farnborough, where the aircraft weren't speed limited unlike IFR commercial flights in the then equivalent of Class G airspace; I was easily able to adapt to Buccaneers, Hunters and Lightnings flashing round low level at up to 550kts mixing it with slower traffic out of Blackbushe, Fairoaks and White Waltham but later trainees straight out of the college from about 1990 seemed to have great trouble doing so, often ignoring conflicting traffic if it wasn't showing SSR.

Can we get your autograph?

[escaped.atco]

Theres always a danger that as we get older, we always default to the attitude of - "the youngsters have it easy now, back in my day I had 16 in the circuit, calibration in progress and 5 at the holding point. Had to do it all with primary radar and and a verey pistol........"

I wouldn't want to have to go through the training system again, my years of experience wouldn't necessarily mean I would breeze through. The assessment methods are different, the pressures are different, the technology is different - ultimately anyone that gets through should be given the credit for achieving that. Problem is that there seems a reluctance from the colleges to actually chop those totally unsuited to ATC, they simply recommend them for further training at the unit and then the particular unit has to make the difficult decision to cease training. Unfortunately this may well be after spending hundreds of wasted OJTI hours, the question is are we doing students/candidates/apprentices any favours by stringing them along when the reality is ATC was never going to suit them as a career in the first place. Thats not a statement of some form of elitism, it's simply a recognition that ATC isn't for everyone.

[chevvron]

Can we get your autograph?
Why? I wasn't exceptional; many controllers were able to adapt, it's just that the NATS training system nowadays, although it does cover 'FIS' (previously ATSOCAs) concentrates mostly on Class D operations and some trainees struggle to adapt to a Class G environment.

[2 sheds]

Problem is that there seems a reluctance from the colleges to actually chop those totally unsuited to ATC, they simply recommend them for further training at the unit and then the particular unit has to make the difficult decision to cease training.
Not true - it is not the task of the ITOs to decide that an individual is "unsuited to ATC". They have to make an assessment based on the evidence as to whether a trainee is satisfactory or unsatisfactory at any particular stage of training on an approved course.
then the particular unit has to make the difficult decision to cease training. Unfortunately this may well be after spending hundreds of wasted OJTI hours,
As you say, a difficult decision - which apparently you expect the ITOs to make much earlier in the training process, when there may be a suspicion but little hard evidence. I suggest that the responsibility lies with the employer and its selection process - in the case of NATS, they make a big enough meal of it.
I wasn't exceptional; many controllers were able to adapt, it's just that the NATS training system nowadays,
We thought that you were! :-) It's not the NATS training system - it's the European plus UK specified content for the rating course, whichever approved ITO provides it.

​​​​​​​2 s

[alfaman]

Not true - it is not the task of the ITOs to decide that an individual is "unsuited to ATC". They have to make an assessment based on the evidence as to whether a trainee is satisfactory or unsatisfactory at any particular stage of training on an approved course.

As you say, a difficult decision - which apparently you expect the ITOs to make much earlier in the training process, when there may be a suspicion but little hard evidence. I suggest that the responsibility lies with the employer and its selection process - in the case of NATS, they make a big enough meal of it.

We thought that you were! :-) It's not the NATS training system - it's the European plus UK specified content for the rating course, whichever approved ITO provides it.

2 s
Very well put. Incidentally, NATS Training do currently train for APS, specifically for Swanwick, & also train UK specified content courses when needed. ADI will also be restarting soon, once the electronic data system is ready.

[SureIam]

Brighton City Airport(Shoreham) looking for ADI with ideally APP but consider tower only.

[email protected]

[Nimmer]

[QUOTE=chevvron;10653800]Why? I wasn't exceptional. Well there is a bubble burst, reading your posts Chevron I thought you were the dogs boll@@ks, and Farnborough went down the toilet when you left, and as for the general state of Air traffic, well that has never recovered from your departure!!!!

Always a sad day when your heroes fail you.

[chevvron]

[QUOTE=chevvron;10653800]Why? I wasn't exceptional. Well there is a bubble burst, reading your posts Chevron I thought you were the dogs boll@@ks, and Farnborough went down the toilet when you left, and as for the general state of Air traffic, well that has never recovered from your departure!!!!

Always a sad day when your heroes fail you.
I must admit I was always prepared to 'bend' the rules at times in order to provide a better service to pilots eg suggesting to single engine pilots crossing to Le Touquet they stay with me on LARS East frequency (so that if their engine went, I could pinpoint their position to D & D) which was officially outside my area of operation. My flying experience in many types from gliders and microlights, through light aircraft and helicopters to fast jets (which controllers nowadays rarely have) helped me to determine when this might be useful to pilots and if anybody queried what I did I could always invoke MATS Pt 1 Section 1 Chapter 1 para 1.2 second sentence.
Local assessors nowadays tend to frown on this type of discretion and initiative so it rarely occurs.

[escaped.atco]

Snag is, ATC is now so risk averse that anything that isn't written down and published as a procedure leaves one wide open to subsequent disciplinary actions - doing something with the best of intentions is no longer enough to make it ok when it goes even slightly wrong. As for controllers with aircraft experience, that has also largely faded away from what I can see. More and more controllers are now coming into the industry, not because they have a love of aviation, but simply because they are attracted by the salary and potential lifestyle. It is rare now for controllers to have flying experience behind them, I have seen ab-initios who literally don't know what the difference is in a Cherokee and an Aztec - no appreciation in the difference of performance, no idea if fixed gear or retractable etc. Couple this with a sense of entitlement for someone who as never been told in their lifetime that they can actually fail and there can be issues. But in balance I suppose it would be a boring world if we were all the same.:cool:

[kcockayne]

Snag is, ATC is now so risk averse that anything that isn't written down and published as a procedure leaves one wide open to subsequent disciplinary actions - doing something with the best of intentions is no longer enough to make it ok when it goes even slightly wrong. As for controllers with aircraft experience, that has also largely faded away from what I can see. More and more controllers are now coming into the industry, not because they have a love of aviation, but simply because they are attracted by the salary and potential lifestyle. It is rare now for controllers to have flying experience behind them, I have seen ab-initios who literally don't know what the difference is in a Cherokee and an Aztec - no appreciation in the difference of performance, no idea if fixed gear or retractable etc. Couple this with a sense of entitlement for someone who as never been told in their lifetime that they can actually fail and there can be issues. But in balance I suppose it would be a boring world if we were all the same.:cool:
Boring, perhaps; but judging from your assessment of modern entrants, more professional & more sympathetic too?

[escaped.atco]

Boring, perhaps; but judging from your assessment of modern entrants, more professional & more sympathetic too?

As I've inferred before, there's always a danger that we older controllers think the younger generation have it easier and are not as good. I'm very conscious of the fact that different generations have different attitudes and priorities. All I can say is that when I was coming through the system, the vast majority of my colleagues had at the very least a keen interest in all things aviation. A lot had flying experience and had perhaps worked with and around aircraft in one form or another - that seems to have gone. My personal opinion is that is easier to train someone who really wants to be there, someone who has an aviation interest and someone who is a well rounded individual. Not saying that doesn't happen anymore, just maybe not as much. Harsh? Maybe, but just my opinion and experience. I don't know what the latest recruitment requirements are but an initial aviation knowledge obviously isn't a prerequisite. :8

[kcockayne]

I can’t say that I disagree with any of that. I would not discount anyone who doesn’t have an aviation interest/background ; but I do think that the system should be built around a nucleus of aviation enthusiasts ie capable aviation enthusiasts. Without judging the different generations, my Cadet course comprised 24 ex ATCAS - only one of whom failed. In my opinion, all except that one individual had that motivation occasioned by experience in ATC & enthusiasm for the job. It was this that helped make them good controllers. That is not to say that anyone without that sort of motivation cannot be as good !

[chevvron]

We started as 23 ATCO Cadets and 16 graduated 3 years later; one dropped out at the end of the 4 week initial course; didn't even do his PPL course; he was a non state ex ATCA; the rest of the intake were half and half ex ATCAs and direct entrants and about the same ratio graduated.
But we were all 'aircraft enthusiasts' to some level.
Having said that, on our 'sim' course in year 3, we were divided into crews of 3 (it was a Trident sim and the 'normal' flight deck crew of a Trident was 3) and although I enjoyed every minute, the other 2 in my crew made it plain they both thought it was a waste of time; they were to be professional controllers not professsional pilots.

[AAK10]

Looks like direct entry Watch Manager position on the NATS recruitment site. Does this mean no internal candidates!!!

[kcockayne]

Funnily enough, I was one of those who did not particularly enjoy the Trident course. Not because I thought of myself as a controller & not a pilot : but because the whole thing was too much of a "push button" & automated experience; not "real" flying. Betrayed my attitude towards computers - even then ! I well remember our instructor (an ex WW2 pilot - type who crawled out on the wing to extinguish a fire), asking me if I was a slow learner. He had a point, I had no interest in the "automated" cockpit. But, back to the "qualities" of ATCOS; my point is that a love of aviation got a lot of us through the training & encouraged us to think outside the strictures of "the loop" when it came to controlling. When we retired, we were missed in my local environment. Several "old school" pilots said as much to our faces. It was gratifying to have had our efforts recognised in that manner !

[chevvron]

When we retired, we were missed in my local environment. Several "old school" pilots said as much to our faces. It was gratifying to have had our efforts recognised in that manner !
When it was announced I was retiring, at least 2 professional pilots expressed their appreciation of my work, one of them being chief Test Pilot at WHL.
After I retired from Farnborough, I lasted about 2 weeks before getting bored and starting work as a FISO at Fairoaks; this caused great confusion amongst locally based pilots who kept thinking they had selected the wrong frequency when my voice came up on the Fairoaks frequency. I was still getting queries about 2 years later 'didn't you used to be at Farnborough'?

[Rwy1234]

I was still getting queries about 2 years later 'didn't you used to be at Farnborough'?

Theres certainly no way anyone that has even heard or pprune would not know you used to work at Farnborough. My cat even knows you used to work at Farnborough.

[On the beach]

I see NATS are advertising for experienced approach and tower controllers for Hong Kong. Unfortunately there is no mention of salary and allowances. Anyone care to shed some light?

[FlyingSaucepan]

NCL looking again

[frilsy]

Job (s) going at Newcastle again. Won’t let me post the link, details on job train.

[10 DME ARC]

Lots of jobs at NCL - Seven ATCO's just resigned! Tread carefully!

[rodan]

Job (s) going at Newcastle again. Won’t let me post the link, details on job train.
From the ad:
Salary: £Competetive
And yet people are apparently flooding out the door! How strange. Is there something else at play here, or is there a reason they are being so coy about the salary?

[frilsy]

Lots of jobs at NCL - Seven ATCO's just resigned! Tread carefully!

*8 lost in 6 months I believe (though some retirement.) 1/3ish of the workforce. That’s got to hurt....

[highwideandugly]

Ouch..considering it takes up to 5 months..inc.notice and training to validate positions? Could be an interesting summer?

[ACC1]

Hello guys,
Anybody know how can apply for Swanwick Area Control Centre?
I have previously experience as an ATC about 3 years abroad but my license is not valid anymore
I am in Bournemouth, close to Area Control Centre.Maybe to have some appointments??

Thank You

[possibleconsequences]

Hi,
does anyone at Newcastle have information on what the story is there and what they are offering? Thanks in advance for any PM’s

[escaped.atco]

Lots of jobs at NCL - Seven ATCO's just resigned! Tread carefully!

So a few have retired, surely there would have been some form of forward planning - retirement isn't exactly a surprise and most ATCOs would make their plans clear months in advance. So what's the real story here? Getting caught on the hop with 8 resignations is poor management, poor because the ATCOs got fed up and left or poor because there was no training in place to ensure there were no major gaps in cover!:confused:

[escaped.atco]

Ouch..considering it takes up to 5 months..inc.notice and training to validate positions? Could be an interesting summer?

I have no idea what the training system is at Newcastle but 5 months is a tad optimistic! Most of the larger airports have a 3 month notice period so even if someone was to accept a job now it'll be April before they start, valid in 2 months? I would have thought 8 resignations has probably also affected the training capability of the unit, wonder how many of those left have OJTI endorsements? And are they prepared to train multiple controllers in a very intense time period along with the pressures that brings?

[highwideandugly]

Previous posts a new management structure..very inexperienced..maybe something to do with it?

[Cleared For A Coffee]

No idea what the situation is at NCL. But the fact is that experienced ATCOs can basically go wherever they want now. So the smaller units are naturally going to struggle.

A few years ago the gaps were being filled by military ATCOs retraining. That seems to be drying up. Then there were queues of self funders with Student ADI tickets, that seems to have dried up too, especially now the cost of a course has doubled...

There aren’t enough ATCOs to meet the demand in the UK. Ultimately, if regional airports want to prevent their Controllers heading elsewhere they need to make their units more attractive, or they will not retain staff. It’s as simple as that...

[escaped.atco]

The irony is that when controllers leave, they take with them a lot of local knowledge and experience that simply can't be replicated in a few months training. New staff bring new dynamics to a unit, not always positive! New staff may arrive from smaller units and use their new unit purely as a stepping stone to better things therefore they have no vested interest in their new surroundings, their OJTIs are well aware of this and therefore resent putting a lot of training effort into someone who has no intention of staying. Morale continues to decrease amongst the original staff, perhaps more retire or leave - the cycle continues until you gave a very unhappy and unsettled place to work. Its sad but I have seen it happen.

I agree with Coffee above - if management ignore the human interface within a unit then they will suffer the consequences at some point, particularly as the market is so positive for ATCOs at this time. I don't know what the current pay and terms and conditions are at Newcastle but I do recall in years past it always had a relatively stable staffing level and seemed to be a good place to work. Fascinating how a few changes can have such a major impact on a unit!

[rodan]

There aren’t enough ATCOs to meet the demand in the UK. Ultimately, if regional airports want to prevent their Controllers heading elsewhere they need to make their units more attractive, or they will not retain staff. It’s as simple as that...

I expect this is the nub. There are a few regional airports that need to wake up to reality.