Hard times for Norwegian

[teamax]

This, from a guy working for sas 😂
Anyways, I understand your concern. New Norwegian will be very much alive after corona, with a strong equity, a loss less debt and one of the newest and most environmentally friendly fleets out there. Restructered, but stronger than ever.

Quite incredible optimism, the likes of which I’ve never read before.

[Paul737]

This, from a guy working for sas 😂
Anyways, I understand your concern. New Norwegian will be very much alive after corona, with a strong equity, a loss less debt and one of the newest and most environmentally friendly fleets out there. Restructered, but stronger than ever.


The ones writing about a Norwegian stronger than ever with a loss less debt have no f... clue about what a debt/equity swap means and it consequences

[uncle-traveling-matt]

The ones writing about a Norwegian stronger than ever with a loss less debt have no f... clue about what a debt/equity swap means and it consequences

Enlighten us, educate the masses. Im already
holding my breath..

[Paul737]

Enlighten us, educate the masses. Im already
holding my breath..


No need. Unfortunately the hard reality will enlighten you in a couple of weeks, but of course, stronger than ever

[GlueBall]

"New Norwegian will be very much alive after corona, with a strong equity, a loss less debt and one of the newest and most environmentally friendly fleets out there. Restructured, but stronger than ever."

After Covid-19 has dissipated, practical reality suggests that prospective air travelers will be in no hurry to fill seats, share armrests and rub elbows with strangers. All passenger carriers will be operating below break-even load factors for many months to come. Because the fear factor of asymptomatic transmissions of the virus will linger.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

This, from a guy working for sas 😂

But tell me. Does converting debt to shares mean taking up more debt? Will the total debt be more or less after this exercise?
New Norwegian will be very much alive after corona, with a strong equity, a loss less debt and one of the newest and most environmentally friendly fleets out there. Restructered, but stronger than ever.
Can I have some of what you've been taking?

[Sick]

The increasingly desperate financial measures could be almost copy and pasted from the story of the final days of Thomas Cook.

[FRogge]

Wonder what the future looks like if the creditors/lenders accept this deal and become majority owners of the company. My guess is that they will sell it section by section when value increases in coming years.

[ManaAdaSystem]

This, from a guy working for sas 😂

But tell me. Does converting debt to shares mean taking up more debt? Will the total debt be more or less after this exercise?
New Norwegian will be very much alive after corona, with a strong equity, a lot less debt and one of the newest and most environmentally friendly fleets out there. Restructered, but stronger than ever.

Converting debt to shares will give Norwegian access to financing from the Norwegian government. That is a loan, not free money.
In the process all shareholders will lose a lot when the share price nose dives. That will affect at lot of regular people out there.

[DooblerChina]

Ok, I’m not too familiar with the deal NAS is proposing with its creditors (maybe someone could spell it out) however they need to offer a very rosy future. Creditors/bond holders will have taken out insurance again NAS failing in the form of credit default swaps (CDSs) so if NAS goes bump they still get paid.

The worst thing for most bond holders would be dilution meaning they are stuck with a smaller slice of a problem company. I’d be surprised if they agree but we are in fairly unprecedented times right now so anything’s possible.

BTW, this is looking almost a carbon copy of TCX and back then I’m fairly sure the bond holders chose their insurance payouts rather than throwing more money after bad.

Sincere good look though I have a family member there so hoping for the best....

[EIFFS]

If we were BC (before Coronavirus) I would have said that Norwegian had a slightly better than evens chance of trading to longer term profitability and paying down it debt pile.

PC (Post Coronavirus) and we aren't anywhere near PC I just don't see how Norwegian can dodge this bullet shy of state aid on a massive scale, having said that its worth remembering that Norwegian was historically structured in such away that dead limbs could be cut off thus protecting the core (K area) The Norwegian Government will not be keen on a total collapse of the Norwegian brand or the loss of tax revenue from well paid employees in Norway.

I just can't see anyway the Government of Norway will or should bail out the entire group, so my best guess is that they will underwrite a chapter 11 style of restructuring which will be an Oslo centric operation (wasn't it always thus) flying short haul MAX & NG aircraft across Europe with few if any European bases, this new Norwegian will be largely state owned and will be re privatised in 3-5 years

If I recall the LGW slots were monetised and used for loan security so may well be called in but they are probably of little value now.

Anybody who thinks that in a few months it will be all over and business as normal is delusional, this year is a write off for the travel industry especially long haul at least until a vaccine is available to all and I can't see that before 2021

When airlines can fly again it will be Ryanair out of the blocks first with ultra low fares and will use its massive cash reserves to buy market share and push weakened companies to the wall.

[Meester proach]

Well fingers crossed....I shudder to imagine a transport option that mainly revolves around Ryanair

[Chris2303]

The whole thing is being strung along because the absurd complexity of the whole operation will be exposed. In years to come, someone will write a book....How Not To Run An Airline.

Somebody already did: "Wings" by Robert J Serling

[Bencap]

-50% on the share price today, something is happening?

[fruitbat]

Record drop in Norwegian share price today, understandable as shareholders will be either massively diluted or the company will cease to exist.

[8029848s]

Record drop in Norwegian share price today, understandable as shareholders will be either massively diluted or the company will cease to exist.

NAS market cap around £80m........something has to happen.

[SMT Member]

Existing shareholders stand to lose around 96% of the value, as a Norwegian share with a nominal value of 100 will be worth only 4, if the plans of converting debt to equity goes through. Whilst that is indeed doubtful, shareholders are bailing en masse in order to save what can be saved. Hence the value has dropped around 50% within the first 20 minutes of trading on the Oslo stock exchange this morning.

The thing is, without converting debt to equity Norwegian cannot access the next - and by far largest - tranche of support from the NO government. Without that support, they look to be pretty much buggered.

[macdo]

Feels like the last gasps of Thomas Cook, again.
Sympathy to all the employees and small shareholders.

[Capt Scribble]

Macdo. ..and TCX previously, and Mytravel before that. Its a good thing the chinese Zn/Au mine is still going!

[Jwscud]

Alert from BALPA that Norwegian UK don’t have the money to pay OSM April salaries and unless they get money from the UK Government nothing forthcoming from OSM who don’t have the funds either. Thoughts with all colleagues there :(

[davidjohnson6]

Really can't see either the Irish or UK Govt coughing up to support Norwegian Air International or Norwegian Air UK
Bit of a long shot, but I wonder if the Swedes mights put some money in the pot to keep a couple of planes for Norwegian's base at Stockholm to provide competition against SAS for connections to the far north - or would they prefer to bail out BRA instead ?

[macdo]

Macdo. ..and TCX previously, and Mytravel before that. Its a good thing the chinese Zn/Au mine is still going!
And don't forget the financial tightrope AIH walked. Same old same old, in my (long) experience the directors will come up smelling of roses in another field while the pbi take a hit. Glad to be permanently out of it post September '99. Good luck delving those foreign mines:)

[FullWings]

I really feel for the people working there at this time of utter uncertainty. No-one is safe in this industry at the moment.

However, Norwegian's business plan appeared to be:

1. Get lots and lots of expensive aeroplanes
2. ???
3. Profit!!

And it doesn’t seem to have worked that well, even pre-pandemic...

[vikingivesterled]

For they who where contemplating a long distance low cost operation there is something to be said for buying the company for sub 80 million euro without its overpriced plane leases and then negotiate with each batch of planeowners for a post corona pricing plan. With luck and financial patience one could even get the inital purchase price ++ back from Boeing in Max settlements. There is multiple AOC's, a governements approved transatlantic route network and a batch of new planes, already built so cheaper than new, to get quickly started post lockdowns, and a market name slightly more respected than the bottom of the low fares pile.
One would think that would be better than pursue expansion in the lowfares space overcrowded european market. In addition one would have a strong out of the blocks foothold in the intra Norway and Scandinavia markets which was always the moneyspinners Norwegian used to finance their longhaul. Trondheim-Oslo (with cheapest fares of 100 euro equivalent even out of season) is a core route with volume levels and frequency comparable to Dublin-London . Bergen-Oslo and Oslo-Copenhagen was not far behind in volumes.

[bornfree]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/15/norwegian-air-uk-pilots-and-cabin-crew-will-not-receive-april-salary-covid-19

[8che]

For they who where contemplating a long distance low cost operation there is something to be said for buying the company for sub 80 million euro without its overpriced plane leases and then negotiate with each batch of planeowners for a post corona pricing plan. With luck and financial patience one could even get the inital purchase price ++ back from Boeing in Max settlements. There is multiple AOC's, a governements approved transatlantic route network and a batch of new planes, already built so cheaper than new, to get quickly started post lockdowns, and a market name slightly more respected than the bottom of the low fares pile.
One would think that would be better than pursue expansion in the lowfares space overcrowded european market. In addition one would have a strong out of the blocks foothold in the intra Norway and Scandinavia markets which was always the moneyspinners Norwegian used to finance their longhaul. Trondheim-Oslo (with cheapest fares of 100 euro equivalent even out of season) is a core route with volume levels and frequency comparable to Dublin-London . Bergen-Oslo and Oslo-Copenhagen was not far behind in volumes.

Wise words Viking. About the most intelligent post I have read on here for quite some time.

[FullWings]

IAG could do the above, as they displayed a certain interest in Norwegian a while back. I expect any offer would be around the €1 mark ±10c...

[RexBanner]

FFS get real. Anyone who buys Norwegian at this point is also taking on all the debt too. Over 7Billion dollars worth. Who in their right mind is going to do that in the current climate?

[FRogge]

For they who where contemplating a long distance low cost operation there is something to be said for buying the company for sub 80 million euro without its overpriced plane leases and then negotiate with each batch of planeowners for a post corona pricing plan. With luck and financial patience one could even get the inital purchase price ++ back from Boeing in Max settlements. There is multiple AOC's, a governements approved transatlantic route network and a batch of new planes, already built so cheaper than new, to get quickly started post lockdowns, and a market name slightly more respected than the bottom of the low fares pile.
One would think that would be better than pursue expansion in the lowfares space overcrowded european market. In addition one would have a strong out of the blocks foothold in the intra Norway and Scandinavia markets which was always the moneyspinners Norwegian used to finance their longhaul. Trondheim-Oslo (with cheapest fares of 100 euro equivalent even out of season) is a core route with volume levels and frequency comparable to Dublin-London . Bergen-Oslo and Oslo-Copenhagen was not far behind in volumes.

Also there is brand value, atleast to some extent. They're after all biggest foreign carrier out of NY, so that definitely has some value in it.

[vikingivesterled]

Debt is mostly in plane leases and quite a bit to of US export finance who will not be interested in owning a foreign airline. All those planes sold at overprice on delivery against a overcost leaseback would have to have their leases renegotiated or planes returned. Preferably by a company that have other business with the same planeowners. Or a cash rich finance company with an interest in the airline industry that could buy out the planeowners at a discount in the current market and lease the planes effectively back to itself. And then in 3-5 years, when Boeing the Max payout has been scooped up and markets normalise, relaunch Norwegian back to the market as a well financed and well established airline. I could se a 5 to 10 fold payback on initial investment.
Pricing of a takeover would need to be in the 1-10c a share range through an enormous expansion of number of shares, to which existing shareholders for legal reasons would have to be invited to participate. Any pure buyout of existing shares would just be giving money to existing shareholders and would not only increase the price but would neither help the company survive. A new top management team with extensive airline experience and preferably scandi experience would also have to be put in place.
An umbrella company like IAG could be an option, but I suspect they don't want a long haul low fares competitor to BA or a Spain competitor to Iberia, so would shrink Norwegian to Scandinavia only taking away halve the advantages, but there are others.

[stn]

Do they still have airbuses on order?

Coming days and weeks are really interesting. I guess this can become a self-fulfilling prophecy; now that even laymen know that Norwegian has serious problems at hand they are going to book their flights from another provider probably.

Btw didn't we have one mate here who bashed Norwegian for the last five years at least and appeared in every thread regarding Norwegian? I wonder if he's finally at peace.

I feel sorry for the people who work there, I hope all the best.

[srjumbo747]

Let’s just face it that low cost long haul doesn’t work.
People Express, Laker’s Skytrain, Zoom, others which I’ve forgotten and now Norwegian.

[CEJM]

Meester proach, we may not always agree on Pprune but still a heartfelt Good Luck. Having been through a similar situation in 2017 I know how stressful it is. Even worse so in the current economic climate.

[WHBM]

Let’s just face it that low cost long haul doesn’t work.
People Express, Laker’s Skytrain, Zoom, others which I’ve forgotten and now Norwegian.
It's not just low-cost long haul that doesn't work, but single-market long haul. The high end transatlantic operators of a few years ago went the same way.

The fact is that a typical legacy long haul flight has a mix of low end, median (eg business travellers in Economy) and premium passengers, plus substantial belly cargo, with O&D, plus connecting pax at both ends, plus significant marketing, plus major corporate deals for substantial users, plus very substantial and honed frequent flyer programmes, plus expert yield managers getting as much as they can out of each.

From all of this, they just manage to do a bit better than break even. Meanwhile the new contenders are missing one or more of these elements (some quite a lot), and then on what elements they do have, offer fares which are lower than those of the operator above, and thus give less revenue. What's not to understand ?

[vikingivesterled]

It's not just low-cost long haul that doesn't work, but single-market long haul. The high end transatlantic operators of a few years ago went the same way.

The fact is that a typical legacy long haul flight has a mix of low end, median (eg business travellers in Economy) and premium passengers, plus substantial belly cargo, with O&D, plus connecting pax at both ends, plus significant marketing, plus major corporate deals for substantial users, plus very substantial and honed frequent flyer programmes, plus expert yield managers getting as much as they can out of each.

From all of this, they just manage to do a bit better than break even. Meanwhile the new contenders are missing one or more of these elements (some quite a lot), and then on what elements they do have, offer fares which are lower than those of the operator above, and thus give less revenue. What's not to understand ?

Spoken like a through stuck in the mud. All the above cost money to organise and adds substantially to the revenue needed. Including faff like frequent flyer programs, honing, corporate deals, connections, over-marketing and EXPERT yield managers.
There just haven't been a well funded transatlantic low fares carrier with true low cost principles yet. Norwegian is a half way house that try to be low fares but with a high norwegian cost base, and don't want to sucumb totally to the reputation one gets if one count every coin. Its no transatlantic Ryanair, but it could be. Kjos was after all a pilot and a lawyer and not a penny pinching accountant. And the new chief never hit the ground running but was still learning the airline ropes when the market went off the cliff, after a lifetime spent within retail in an overfunded company,

[rotorcloud]

yes there are depts but... this airline managed to reduce their costs significantly in a very short time while other flag carrier tankers are still in their process of reducing their overwhelming overhead costs of pension obligations etc.
Will people travel first or business in the future in order to cover these high costs that flag carriers have when flying from their overpriced major airports? I don`t think so. I think „after-covid-times“ is the times where this business model works better than ever. as business ppl. learn to to their stuff via skype and zoom more and more. But Norwegian customers are in majority millennials and tourists. They will come back quickly and want to fly these modern, fuel efficient planes for a good price!

[qwertyuiop]

I hope they pull through. I have flown Norwegian many times and hope to do so again.

[truckflyer]

Spoken like a through stuck in the mud. All the above cost money to organise and adds substantially to the revenue needed. Including faff like frequent flyer programs, honing, corporate deals, connections, over-marketing and EXPERT yield managers.
There just haven't been a well funded transatlantic low fares carrier with true low cost principles yet. Norwegian is a half way house that try to be low fares but with a high norwegian cost base, and don't want to sucumb totally to the reputation one gets if one count every coin. Its no transatlantic Ryanair, but it could be. Kjos was after all a pilot and a lawyer and not a penny pinching accountant. And the new chief never hit the ground running but was still learning the airline ropes when the market went off the cliff, after a lifetime spent within retail in an overfunded company,

Not penny pinching Kjos?
Are you sure about that?
Why Irish and British AOC?
Why Thai based crew, on Singapore contracts, all the time with EASA pilots?
Why forcing large part of the workforce to OSM, a company only supplying workforce to Norwegian, and no Scandinavian worker rights protections etc.

I ask myself, why should the Norwegian government provide funds for a company who have minority of their aircraft registered on their Norwegian AOC?

You having a joke when you saying not penny pinching Kjos.

[BehindBlueEyes]

I hope they pull through. I have flown Norwegian many times and hope to do so again.

Thank you for posting this. My son is a pilot for NAS and his job, along with many others, now hangs in the balance. He’s always spoken highly of the care and support he’s always received from his management and what a great team it is. It’ll be a sad day for many reasons if Norwegian hit the buffers.

[srjumbo747]

I feel for the staff, that is without question but even before Covid19 they were on the ropes and should have stuck to shorthaul. It was a very good product.
Their longhaul product, when it worked it worked well. Unfortunately when things went wrong their customer service was shocking.
There has been longhaul flying since the flying boat era. Low cost longhaul doesn’t work. Why should Norwegian think it does?

[shaun ryder]

Will people travel first or business in the future in order to cover these high costs that flag carriers have when flying from their overpriced major airports? I don`t think so.

I think you are just making that up to fit the narrative. If you think people are going to give up flying first and business with a major and settle for Norwegian you are living in a dreamworld. Expect economy airfares to soar, those who use business and first will keep flying business and first.

[vikingivesterled]

Not penny pinching Kjos?
Are you sure about that?
Why Irish and British AOC?
Why Thai based crew, on Singapore contracts, all the time with EASA pilots?
Why forcing large part of the workforce to OSM, a company only supplying workforce to Norwegian, and no Scandinavian worker rights protections etc.
I ask myself, why should the Norwegian government provide funds for a company who have minority of their aircraft registered on their Norwegian AOC?
You having a joke when you saying not penny pinching Kjos.

That may seem like penny pinching for a Norwegian but when flying people from UK or Spain to the US, and other even further away destinations, a small break with the socialist Scandinavian model is not enough. It's just the first couple of sentence out of MOL's and EW's book.
And if all Norwegian's aircraft was on a Norwegian AOC they couldn't be in that market at all. Think about how NIS had to come in to save Norwegian registered ship owning/management.

[the_stranger]

And if all Norwegian's aircraft was on a Norwegian AOC they couldn't be in that market at all. Think about how NIS had to come in to save Norwegian registered ship owning/management.
Then they should not have been called norwegian, pretended like they are from Norway and apply for a norwegian bailout.

[macdo]

Not penny pinching Kjos?
Are you sure about that?
Why Irish and British AOC?
Why Thai based crew, on Singapore contracts, all the time with EASA pilots?
Why forcing large part of the workforce to OSM, a company only supplying workforce to Norwegian, and no Scandinavian worker rights protections etc.

I ask myself, why should the Norwegian government provide funds for a company who have minority of their aircraft registered on their Norwegian AOC?

You having a joke when you saying not penny pinching Kjos.
That'a the price we pay so the great unwashed can travel to Spain for £30 and Vegas for £120. It is a daft unsustainable business model which will die within the next few years. Then we will be back to the good old days of the rich flying and the rest of us on the coach.

[truckflyer]

Then they should not have been called norwegian, pretended like they are from Norway and apply for a norwegian bailout.

Exactly my point.

[Meester proach]

Then they should not have been called norwegian, pretended like they are from Norway and apply for a norwegian bailout.


The founder is norwegian, the headquarters is in Norway, a significant part of the AOCS are there . Ever heard of global companies ? Do you think Ryanair isn’t Irish becuase not everyone that works there drinks Guinness ?

[the_stranger]

The founder is norwegian, the headquarters is in Norway, a significant part of the AOCS are there . Ever heard of global companies ? Do you think Ryanair isn’t Irish becuase not everyone that works there drinks Guinness ?
Indeed, I don't call Ryanair Irish. And seeing how they tried and failed to use Irish law to fire foreign employees, most countries don't see then as Irish too.

I don't have an issue with global companies, but if you (mis)use the global possibilities to evade the responsibilities (tax, social payments) in your so called home country, you should not apply for a bailout in that same country.

[Luke258]

Not penny pinching Kjos?
Are you sure about that?
Why Irish and British AOC?
Why Thai based crew, on Singapore contracts, all the time with EASA pilots?
Why forcing large part of the workforce to OSM, a company only supplying workforce to Norwegian, and no Scandinavian worker rights protections etc.

I ask myself, why should the Norwegian government provide funds for a company who have minority of their aircraft registered on their Norwegian AOC?

You having a joke when you saying not penny pinching Kjos.
Sorry to burst your bubble but besides the NUK and NSE aircraft all the 787s have norwegian registration. Also the BKK based pilots were on BKK contract, same as the cabin Crew. That also goes for All the other bases.
A british aoc was set up for flying out of the UK, that shouldn't be too hard to understand. It was as far as I remember also a requirement to fly longhaul over the pond. The irish AOC was Set up for similar reasons. What's so hard to understand about that? And more importantly, what's so bad about that?

[truckflyer]

Sorry to burst your bubble but besides the NUK and NSE aircraft all the 787s have norwegian registration. Also the BKK based pilots were on BKK contract, same as the cabin Crew. That also goes for All the other bases.
A british aoc was set up for flying out of the UK, that shouldn't be too hard to understand. It was as far as I remember also a requirement to fly longhaul over the pond. The irish AOC was Set up for similar reasons. What's so hard to understand about that? And more importantly, what's so bad about that?

Norwegian have at last 14 Dreamliners registered in the UK. 30- 737 in on Irish registration.

And if you can't see the issue with Irish AOC, or UK AOC, OSM haven't got any money to pay the salaries to any of them, the crews will be getting money from the British government most likely, but if OSM is not British, it starts to get very messy indeed. So Norwegian want help from various countries governments and their own government, so they can survive.

However if you are not paying your taxes to Norway for large part of the operations, why should you expect the Norwegian government to bail out the company who are trying their best to avoid "expensive" Norway.
Why should tax payers fit the bill for a failing company? Why should Norway bail them out?

[Meester proach]

Why ? As was mentioned with virgin, think of what a company pays into its relevant government in tax, income tax from employees etc. There’s always a price to the country of having workers doing nothing.

NUK, is a uk registered company with a UK AOC.

[RoyHudd]

Norwegian are not Norwegian. That name of the airline is deliberately misleading. Perhaps Norwegian will go bust, annul all debts, and rename themselves Welsh. Or Zimbabwean? In any event, the existing company is soon due to go down. I feel very sorry for the employees, but not for the top management who will escape with ill-gotten money. Those times will soon pass, but not soon enough for this airline, with their ridiculous business model. Low cost long-haul. Super cheap short-haul. No way.

[FRogge]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-17/norwegian-air-creditors-may-have-no-choice-but-to-accept-offer

[Icanseeclearly]

Like the article says they have no choice.

They are not investing it’s accept the process or potentially lose everything, if it’s accepted and Norwegian survive they will dump their shares as soon as they can.

Norwegian UK compete directly with British companies, could prove interesting if they ask for and receive a Norwegian government bailout as would that be against completion rules? Such is the convoluted airline business these days.

[ObadiahDogberry]

Norwegian are not Norwegian. That name of the airline is deliberately misleading. Perhaps Norwegian will go bust, annul all debts, and rename themselves Welsh. Or Zimbabwean? In any event, the existing company is soon due to go down. I feel very sorry for the employees, but not for the top management who will escape with ill-gotten money. Those times will soon pass, but not soon enough for this airline, with their ridiculous business model. Low cost long-haul. Super cheap short-haul. No way.

What planet do you live on? They were started in Norway, by Norwegians. They are headquartered in Norway. They are listed on the Oslo stock exchange. Seven of the eight members of the board of directors are Norwegian. Their original and largest AOC is Norwegian. Their largest shareholders are Norwegian. The CEO is Norwegian. In what way are they not Norwegian?

[rotorcloud]

So IKEA is not Swedish because they have entities everywhere and sub companies??? Same goes for Mc Donalds... not ab American company because entities everywhere??? Despite from that who cares???

But what about easyjet and the brexit? Why are they given/ or will they be given approval to fly outside of (not in and out) the UK? They are a UK company.

[Tommy Gavin]

What planet do you live on? They were started in Norway, by Norwegians. They are headquartered in Norway. They are listed on the Oslo stock exchange. Seven of the eight members of the board of directors are Norwegian. Their original and largest AOC is Norwegian. Their largest shareholders are Norwegian. The CEO is Norwegian. In what way are they not Norwegian?
How many of their employees pay income tax in Norway?

[vikdream]

How do you turn debt into shares with no investing at all? Especially now that the company is worth nothing and debt is huge...

I do not get it, maybe someone can explain?

[Capt Scribble]

Vikdream. The company is bankrupt and there is no way of repaying the debt holders. The only hope is that new shares are created and swapped for the debt, in the hope that the company survives and the shares gain in value. The debt is eliminated. Shares are sold at some future date salvaging some of the lenders money. As part of the process, the existing shareholders are almost wiped out as to create new shares the original number will be diluted by a large factor. Seen it happen several times, Lost my money but kept my job, until the last crash when everything went! If you can’t afford to loose it don’t invest!

[truckflyer]

So IKEA is not Swedish because they have entities everywhere and sub companies??? Same goes for Mc Donalds... not ab American company because entities everywhere??? Despite from that who cares???

But what about easyjet and the brexit? Why are they given/ or will they be given approval to fly outside of (not in and out) the UK? They are a UK company.

The Norwegian pilots outside Norway, don't work for Norwegian, they work for third party companies.
If you work for Ikea or McDonalds, you work for that branch of a company, you are not working for a third party company. How hard is this to understand?

[Luke258]

The Norwegian pilots outside Norway, don't work for Norwegian, they work for third party companies.
If you work for Ikea or McDonalds, you work for that branch of a company, you are not working for a third party company. How hard is this to understand?
Ehm nope, but keep trying.

[truckflyer]

Vikdream. The company is bankrupt and there is no way of repaying the debt holders. The only hope is that new shares are created and swapped for the debt, in the hope that the company survives and the shares gain in value. The debt is eliminated. Shares are sold at some future date salvaging some of the lenders money. As part of the process, the existing shareholders are almost wiped out as to create new shares the original number will be diluted by a large factor. Seen it happen several times, Lost my money but kept my job, until the last crash when everything went! If you can’t afford to loose it don’t invest!

I wonder how many can do this, and so they can borrow more money.

[Capt Scribble]

Truckflyer. It worked for Harriet Green and TCX, but as usual, the management that ejected her went on another borrowing spree until collapse. The next attempt to borrow more failed in spectacular fashion.

[rotorcloud]

Dude.... i am working for Norwegian straight away in France with a permanent contract. And guess what... i am happy there and i want us to survive.

[Kirks gusset]

Whilst we all wish NAS to come through this, the reality is that even if they can plug the gaps now it may be that they fail spectacularly down the line as PAX revenues plummet leaving thousands stranded and huge costs to governments in repatriation . Unless all the pundits are wrong, the view Easyjet and BA have that it could be 9 months before operations return would also apply to NAS. The Irish Times seems to be following the lease situation: https://www.irishtimes.com/topics/topics-7.1213540?article=true&tag_company=Norwegian+Air. In real terms NAS are asking investors to write off their debts on the hope of better returns down wind. The lease companies will still have to pay their financiers and for them this would be a bad deal, on the other hand who wants aircraft back in the middle of a global crisis. NAS is a large player at Gatwick but again the CAA may want to review the financial viability in terms of the AOC requirement and ATOL membership. Looking increasingly like a larger problem for NAS whom really need cash to survive 12 months in the current climate and the Norwegian funding plan is really a finger plaster not a viable solution.

[truckflyer]

Dude.... i am working for Norwegian straight away in France with a permanent contract. And guess what... i am happy there and i want us to survive.

Is your contract with Norwegian AS? Or with OSM? Or with someone else?

The French furlough agreements are most likely a lot better than most other countries in Europe, but after this there is going to be a price to pay, for many countries. I doubt NAS is paying you at this time while you not working, I am guessing they have left it for the French government to sort out, or am I wrong?

[Luke258]

Is your contract with Norwegian AS? Or with OSM? Or with someone else?

The French furlough agreements are most likely a lot better than most other countries in Europe, but after this there is going to be a price to pay, for many countries. I doubt NAS is paying you at this time while you not working, I am guessing they have left it for the French government to sort out, or am I wrong?
The employer is norwegian air france, a local employer. Or how would you imagine a local french contract being Set up? Makes things easier for the employees and the parent Company ;) but I am sure you will find an issue in there too. And yes of course the local government helps, just like in Lufthansa, Air France, British Airways as well. That's what the employees pay Social insurance for. Or do you actually believe that those legacy Airlines are paying the salaries by themselves?

[fab777]

In france, this temporary furlough protection is not on the social security budget, but general state budget. Therefore, an airline which has been successfully at not paying taxes in this country is getting state help without contributing. This applies for other airlines, too.

Good for the crews, though.

[Luke258]

In france, this temporary furlough protection is not on the social security budget, but general state budget. Therefore, an airline which has been successfully at not paying taxes in this country is getting state help without contributing. This applies for other airlines, too.

Good for the crews, though.
How do you even know they weren't paying taxes there? The Crews are paying taxes there as well as Social contributions. Why they shouldnt get anything in return now??

[calypso]

Come on guys. Use your brain. Norwegian is a Norwegian company listed in the Oslo Stock Exchange with the headquarters in Oslo. The corporate profits are taxed in Norway. The company, like many large companies, has a number of subsidiaries. The employees in those subsidiaries are employed on local contracts and pay their taxes and social security in the local country. Exactly the same as employees in easyJet, IAG, Citibank, Ford, Airbus, etc etc. Local AOCs are not a cost saving issue but a mechanism to gain the right to fly to third countries - ever heard of the Chicago Convention? An airline cannot just choose to fly from a third country to another third country outside the EU just like that. You cannot use the Siberian corridor just like that. Rusia might allow a "Swedish" carrier but not an "Irish" carrier for example.

A crew member is based in London Gatwick and operates from London, where would you expect them to be contracted, in Oslo? where would they pay income tax and social security, In Oslo? of course not. They pay their taxes and SS in the UK as it should be. Their employment is subject to UK law. Much as an easyJet pilot based in Paris pays their tax and is em ployed in France or a Citibank cashier working in Munich in employed in Germany. That is the proper way to do it. Not to be confused with companies that provide an employment contract based in a country nowhere near where the crew member is based with the sole purpose of avoiding labour legislation and tax avoidance - I won't name any names here but how about W and R

Does that mean the company is not Norwegian? of course not. The company headquarters are in Norway and the companies profits are taxed in Norway. Exactly the same setup as every other large corporation out there.

So who should rescue what part? When Ford and GM got into trouble in the last crisis who bailed them out? the US treasury - but they have employees, factories, dealers, etc all over the world? yes but is a US company and the US bailed them out because it considered the economic fallout of letting them go to the wall was higher than the cost of bailing them out. When we had the flood in the UK a few months ago who got government help? just those employed by wholly owned and headquartered UK companies? no - everyone that lived in the affected area. When Honda decides to close a factory in the UK who comes and stumps a pile of cash to try to keep it open? the UK treasury, why? because they want to protect local jobs. So in this case Norway may bail the "company" out but individual countries are bailing the local employees out.

[Kirks gusset]

Indeed, the UK Government is supporting the Employees via the furlough schemes, but they will not inject cash to support the "business" they were happy to let Flybe .The Gatwick airport movement capacity has always been strained and should NAS go then other players will easily take up the slack, of course, Pilots and Cabin crew would be much more difficult to place. Most folks are keeping fingers crossed for NAS but radical changes and realistic reductions in numbers need to occur to place the company on track to at least break even. Unfortunately, once the market and suppliers loose confidenece in a company the rest is "history"

[Tommy Gavin]

Calypso, you are entirely right. That's why I believe the Norwegian government would only bail out the 'Norwegian' part if anything. I don't expect any help from the French or UK government as for them the operation is relatively insignificant and does not add many benefits that they don't have already with the existing UK / French carriers. Except for the employees nobody gives a f**k about Norwegian in said countries.

Ford was considered 'too big to fail' and helping Honda UK was making economic and even more political sense at that time. Saving Norwegian does not fit either I am afraid.

[Tontito]

In france, this temporary furlough protection is not on the social security budget, but general state budget. Therefore, an airline which has been successfully at not paying taxes in this country is getting state help without contributing. This applies for other airlines, too.

Good for the crews, though.

Norwegian crew work for a French subsidiary hence they fall under the furlough protection.
The furlough protection comes with some restrictions though: the employer can’t make anyone redundant and has to pay 70% of the salary. The French state will refund the 70%, but the refund is capped at 5500€. The question remains if the subsidiary has enough cash to pay the salaries...

Should the French subsidiary go tits up, employees will be entitled to unemployment benefits in their country of residence which is not necessarily France even if they paid social security in France.

[vikdream]

Norwegian crew work for a French subsidiary hence they fall under the furlough protection.
The furlough protection comes with some restrictions though: the employer can’t make anyone redundant and has to pay 70% of the salary. The French state will refund the 70%, but the refund is capped at 5500€.

Should the French subsidiary go tits up, employees will be entitled to unemployment benefits in their country of residence which is not necessarily France even if they paid social security in France.

Let me doubt it. If you pay Social Security in one country, you are entitled to protections in that country. That country might choose to transfer your money to another one, but third countries will not take responsibility when no money has been put in in the system, except for a few exceptions.

[Tontito]

How do you even know they weren't paying taxes there? The Crews are paying taxes there as well as Social contributions. Why they shouldnt get anything in return now??

Crews are paying social security in France for sure. However income taxes are subject to the Double Taxation convention between the country of residence and France.
As 777 stated the furlough agreement was, originally, for French companies only. In the mean it has been changed to include airlines with bases in France to include easyJet crews who are still employed by EasyJet U.K, a British company.

[8che]

Calypso, you are entirely right. That's why I believe the Norwegian government would only bail out the 'Norwegian' part if anything. I don't expect any help from the French or UK government as for them the operation is relatively insignificant and does not add many benefits that they don't have already with the existing UK / French carriers. Except for the employees nobody gives a f**k about Norwegian in said countries.

Ford was considered 'too big to fail' and helping Honda UK was making economic and even more political sense at that time. Saving Norwegian does not fit either I am afraid.

Tommy you haven’t understood a word Calpyso has said...

There is no “Norwegian Part” to separate. Do you understand why the AOC’s are in place ?

No benefits for other countries you say...as an example Norwegian carried 6 million brits last year, 4.5 million from Gatwick alone. Have you asked those passengers why they chose not to fly with BA ?

If they are able to survive they will restructure without question.

One fact remains, consumers are stuffed without choice.

[Tontito]

Let me doubt it. If you pay Social Security in one country, you are entitled to protections in that country. That country might choose to transfer your money to another one, but third countries will not take responsibility when no money has been put in in the system, except for a few exceptions.
No, the country of residence pays and can claim the money back from the country of last employment.
Here are quotes from the relevant EU law:

A wholly unemployed person who, during his/her last activity as an employed or self-employed person, resided in a Member State other than the competent Member State and who continues to reside in that Member State or returns to that Member State shall make himself/ herself available to the employment services in the Member State of residence.

and:
The benefits provided by the institution of the place of residence under paragraph 5 shall continue to be at its own expense. However, subject to paragraph 7, the competent institution of the Member State to whose legislation he/she was last subject shall reimburse to the insti* tution of the place of residence the full amount of the benefits provided by the latter institution

[RexBanner]

Have you asked those passengers why they chose not to fly with BA ?.

Probably because they liked being sold a product below cost. I don’t think it’s anything more complicated than that. Don’t get me wrong I actually hope Norwegian pull through eventually because it would be indicative of a wider upswing for the industry plus no one really wants or likes to see colleagues on the other side of the fence being put out of work into a desolate wasteland (which is what it’ll be post Covid). Realistically though the government package isn’t massive, how long is 3B Krona really going to last them even if they pull this last throw of the dice off? Genuine question here.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Probably because they liked being sold a product below cost. I don’t think it’s anything more complicated than that. Don’t get me wrong I actually hope Norwegian pull through eventually because it would be indicative of a wider upswing for the industry plus no one really wants or likes to see colleagues on the other side of the fence being put out of work into a desolate wasteland (which is what it’ll be post Covid). Realistically though the government package isn’t massive, how long is 3B Krona really going to last them even if they pull this last throw of the dice off? Genuine question here.

Not long. They have produced a report that claims it will be of benefit to Norway if they pay 12 billion. Not sure if they mean a direct payment to Norwegian or a loan guarantee. I’m pretty sure what they hope for.
The parts of the company that suffers the most are the longhaul parts. That was true even before Corona. Selling tickets below cost will always be popular with the public, but this is putting pressure on everybody else. That was probably what they meant to do.
This company is already split into pieces. Just kill the relevant AOCs and keep the core.

Debt to shares in order to take on more debt, and no guarantee of a profitable future even if they can pull this off. The investors must be thrilled.

[EIFFS]

Probably because they liked being sold a product below cost. I don’t think it’s anything more complicated than that. Don’t get me wrong I actually hope Norwegian pull through eventually because it would be indicative of a wider upswing for the industry plus no one really wants or likes to see colleagues on the other side of the fence being put out of work into a desolate wasteland (which is what it’ll be post Covid). Realistically though the government package isn’t massive, how long is 3B Krona really going to last them even if they pull this last throw of the dice off? Genuine question here.


Quick answer is probably not very long, the word is that long haul out of LGW was profitable, the bigger problem when will any airline be able to start flying again let alone long haul , who wants to travel to Spain let alone the US and South America.

If they can pull off some form of deal with the Norwegian Government it will very much be about Norway not the UK, I think there will be a Norwegian going forward, but not as we know it now.

[qwertyuiop]

Quick answer is probably not very long, the word is that long haul out of LGW was profitable, the bigger problem when will any airline be able to start flying again let alone long haul , who wants to travel to Spain let alone the US.

With the USA opening it’s beaches in Florida I would be more than happy to get on a Norwegian 787 heading west tomorrow.

[Tommy Gavin]

No benefits for other countries you say...as an example Norwegian carried 6 million brits last year, 4.5 million from Gatwick alone. Have you asked those passengers why they chose not to fly with BA ?

If they are able to survive they will restructure without question.

6 million pax on a total of roughly 180 million is not really significant. Not enough to expect a lifeline from UK government. TCX and FlyBe didn't get one so I strongly doubt the UK government will help out Norwegian. UK aviation market is one of the most competive markets around, with or without Norwegian.



Don't get me wrong, I hope Norwegian survives with all its subsidiaries but one has to be realistic.

[8che]

6 million pax on a total of roughly 180 million is not really significant. Not enough to expect a lifeline from UK government. TCX and FlyBe didn't get one so I strongly doubt the UK government will help out Norwegian. UK aviation market is one of the most competive markets around, with or without Norwegian.



Don't get me wrong, I hope Norwegian survives with all its subsidiaries but one has to be realistic.

Their not in talks with the UK government......Their talking to the Norwegian government !

p.s the UK government are already assisting them by paying part of their UK employees salary from next month.

The point is that the Norwegian government will want to see future healthy corporate tax revenue and options for Norwegian passengers. If one or more of the AOC's is deemed to assist in Norwegian Airlines profitability why on earth would you shut it down ? Unless you have no idea what the AOC gives you.

[Phantom4]

Report from McKinsey this week had Aerospace and Air Travel as hardest hit sectors and that it would be six Quarters before LH returned to previous levels.

[uncle-traveling-matt]

Not long. They have produced a report that claims it will be of benefit to Norway if they pay 12 billion. Not sure if they mean a direct payment to Norwegian or a loan guarantee. I’m pretty sure what they hope for.
The parts of the company that suffers the most are the longhaul parts. That was true even before Corona. Selling tickets below cost will always be popular with the public, but this is putting pressure on everybody else. That was probably what they meant to do.
This company is already split into pieces. Just kill the relevant AOCs and keep the core.

Debt to shares in order to take on more debt, and no guarantee of a profitable future even if they can pull this off. The investors must be thrilled.

Incorrect. The debt will be massively decreased.The equity will be a lot healthier. Which is the purpose of the whole exercise, and this is why the Norwegian government put the demands fourth in the first place,in order for Norwegian to secure the loan guarantees. Simply put as a means to put pressure on it's creditors but also for Norwegian to emerge as a healthier entity.
A very interesting scenario will happen if Norwegian survives because it's competitor in Scandinavia,SAS, is heading in much the same direction as Norwegian before the crisis hit. Extremely low equity, high debts(more than 52 billion Swedish kr!!)and more loans will not solve the situation (Loans dont up the equity, ask Kjos) so the worst thing that could happen for SAS right now, is facing a restructed and almost debt free Norwegian. That scenario is becoming very real, IMHO. I think the SAS management are acutely aware of the danger, because the last couple of years have seen a dramatic decrease in the T and C in SAS, forced part time for upgrades, shocking low wages and fully variable rosters. A real shame...see the SAIL thread for more

[Tommy Gavin]

Matt, of course the UK government is assisting in paying the salaries right now. Totally different thing.
​​​​​The UK AOC wasn't profitable before Covid-19 hence why I think that IF the Norwegian government will bail out Norwegian it will focus on a trimmed down mostly Scandinavian operation that is to the benefit of infrastructure and accessibility of Norway. It is IMHO not realistic to expect Norwegian coming out of this crisis in its current form, shape or size.

[uncle-traveling-matt]

Matt, of course the UK government is assisting in paying the salaries right now. Totally different thing.
​​​​​The UK AOC wasn't profitable before Covid-19 hence why I think that IF the Norwegian government will bail out Norwegian it will focus on a trimmed down mostly Scandinavian operation that is to the benefit of infrastructure and accessibility of Norway. It is IMHO not realistic to expect Norwegian coming out of this crisis in its current form, shape or size.

I agree..however some parts of LH could be kept.

[Meester proach]

Well, the way Trump is throwing money at the US airlines, if companies like norwegian don’t survive, your options for transatlantic will be an old 777, 77 year old cabin crew....and an ice cream...

good luck

[Luke258]

Crews are paying social security in France for sure. However income taxes are subject to the Double Taxation convention between the country of residence and France.
As 777 stated the furlough agreement was, originally, for French companies only. In the mean it has been changed to include airlines with bases in France to include easyJet crews who are still employed by EasyJet U.K, a British company.
With the difference that Norwegian Crew are employed by a french employer. I am Well aware of the DTAs. But don’t assume that all CDG crew lives outside France, and those who do can also be asked to pay taxes in France according to the relevant DTA.
CDG and LGW were the cash cows on longhaul for Norwegian. They flew significant number of flights from CDG and LGW. It will be in everybodys interest to keep that as it is.

[Lgw787]

With the difference that Norwegian Crew are employed by a french employer. I am Well aware of the DTAs. But don’t assume that all CDG crew lives outside France, and those who do can also be asked to pay taxes in France according to the relevant DTA.
CDG and LGW were the cash cows on longhaul for Norwegian. They flew significant number of flights from CDG and LGW. It will be in everybodys interest to keep that as it is.

Cabin Crew have been told LGW is the least loss making long haul base, with LGW-MIA the only Norwegian long haul route that is consistently profitable, all other LGW long haul routes are not even breaking even. I remember about 2 years ago being shown financials that they lost around £6 per passenger on average on long haul.

I believe Norwegian will still be here after Covid 19 but on a much smaller scale, mainly Scandinavia with little to no long haul.

[8che]

Matt, of course the UK government is assisting in paying the salaries right now. Totally different thing.
​​​​​The UK AOC wasn't profitable before Covid-19 hence why I think that IF the Norwegian government will bail out Norwegian it will focus on a trimmed down mostly Scandinavian operation that is to the benefit of infrastructure and accessibility of Norway. It is IMHO not realistic to expect Norwegian coming out of this crisis in its current form, shape or size.

Do you have any information to back up the statement that NUK was not profitable ?

[Kirks gusset]

Do you have any information to back up the statement that NUK was not profitable ?

https://companycheck.co.uk/company/09360346/NORWEGIAN-AIR-UK-LIMITED/financials#key-financials 1.7 Million?

BA https://companycheck.co.uk/company/IE902472/BRITISH-AIRWAYS-PLC/financials

Virgin ( part) https://companycheck.co.uk/company/01600117/VIRGIN-ATLANTIC-AIRWAYS-LIMITED/financials#key-financials

Profit and loss are not that important in this crisis, other tax the ability to raise funds.. as always "cash is king"

[Tommy Gavin]

Do you have any information to back up the statement that NUK was not profitable ?
I know that various large travel agencies were instructed not to book Norwegian ex UK not too far ahead and not in a package due to financial difficulties. This usually does not imply profitability. This was before Covid-19 btw

[3Greens]

I know that various large travel agencies were instructed not to book Norwegian ex UK not too far ahead and not in a package due to financial difficulties. This usually does not imply profitability. This was before Covid-19 btw
utter rubbish. You’re mixing up profitability with cash flow.

[SpGo]

Do you have any information to back up the statement that NUK was not profitable ?

Jacob Schram admitting it in an interview:

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/norwegian-yet-to-find-profitable-long-haul-model-chief/136744.article

[Meester proach]

At the end of the day, the longhaul product was something that people actually liked and wanted to use - just have to ensure it makes some money in the future if things resume , and I’m sure the new CEO is the man to come up with the ideas

[Tommy Gavin]

utter rubbish. You’re mixing up profitability with cash flow.
The first sentence is definitely not rubbish.

[Kirks gusset]

Government bailouts for airlines have been mooted, including for Virgin Atlantic, based in Crawley. Butler’s former employer, burning through £40m a week as its planes sit idle (https://www.theguardian.com/business/nils-pratley-on-finance/2020/apr/16/easyjet-faces-anything-from-a-boom-to-profit-less-frustration), will benefit from a £600m government-backed loan.
If the Norwegians really want NAS to survive, they must put their hands in their pockets, it's all very well spouting along the lines of UK jobs etc etc, but their transport minister heralds the income the airline bring to THEIR economy.. not UK, the UK is merely a convenient launch pad for operations.
In normal times, Gatwick adds about £2.3bn to Britain’s economy each year. More than 250 firms employ 24,000 staff at duty-free shops, pubs, restaurants, car hire and bureaux de change. A further 20,000 work in the supply chain. Nobody wants to see anyone fail, but the UK government is already stretched and at the end of this mess (if there is an end!) its the UK tax payers and economy that will suffer. The papers say OSM doesn't have money to pay crews, isn't OSM another NAS company? If you want to play with the big boys you need a viable and sustainable business model.. not a wing and a prayer ..

[737 Jockey]

https://www.change.org/p/the-norwegian-government-save-norwegian-air-shuttle?recruiter=230739341&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=share_petition&recruited_by_id=13fa60a0-b357-11e4-b66a-f7c0f8cd82f3&utm_content=starter_fb_share_content_en-us%3Av1


Please sign the above petition to save Norwegian. Thank you, and stay safe!

[Paul737]

Please sign the above petition to save Norwegian. Thank you, and stay safe!

So now the Norwegian government must save an airline that is losing money doing flights Barcelona - Tel Aviv, Paris - New York or Tenerife - Munich because they are selling tickets below costs.

I can understand saving the operation in Norway or even in Scandinavia, but why the hell does a Norwegian tax payer must see his money being used to save the other part of the company (mainly UK and Spanish bases)? What interest does Norway has in routes like Gran Canaria - Madrid or London - Corfu?

[srjumbo747]

https://www.change.org/p/the-norwegian-government-save-norwegian-air-shuttle?recruiter=230739341&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=share_petition&recruited_by_id=13fa60a0-b357-11e4-b66a-f7c0f8cd82f3&utm_content=starter_fb_share_content_en-us%3Av1


Please sign the above petition to save Norwegian. Thank you, and stay safe!
NO, NO, NO, NO!

[Big Tudor]

So now the Norwegian government must save an airline that is losing money doing flights Barcelona - Tel Aviv, Paris - New York or Tenerife - Munich because they are selling tickets below costs.

I can understand saving the operation in Norway or even in Scandinavia, but why the hell does a Norwegian tax payer must see his money being used to save the other part of the company (mainly UK and Spanish bases)? What interest does Norway has in routes like Gran Canaria - Madrid or London - Corfu?

Same question in reverse. Why must UK/Spanish/US/ etc, government save a Norwegian company? Seems like Norwegian wants to be Norwegian when it suits, but becomes Norwe-chameleon when it needs to be bailed out.

[Paul737]

Same question in reverse. Why must UK/Spanish/US/ etc, government save a Norwegian company? Seems like Norwegian wants to be Norwegian when it suits, but becomes Norwe-chameleon when it needs to be bailed out.

Norwegian is not going to receive any help from the UK/Spain/US/ etc, governments in the form of loan or cash injection. They have much more important things to worry about and where to spend the tax payers money

[there she blows]

NO, NO, NO, NO!
That comment is neither fair nor helpful in these trying times, at least offer some guidance or helpful contacts for these guys,
like how about advertising in the big issue, or have you considered ikea.

[737lpa]

What's next, either:

1.- Bondholders and creditors agree to CEO Jacob´s plan by Apr 30th to swap (most of) their debt into equity, leaving norwegian with a decent balance sheet in order to survive the crisis, obtain further loans from Norway or other lenders and restart operations in a gradual manner when conditions permit. This can only happen if creditors believe in norwegian as a global business and are obviously pressured by the fact that by not accepting the offer, they're left with either loosing most of their money in bankruptcy proceedings, or recovering assets which are very hard to place right now (acft, slots, hangars...). This option would be the best for all employees as norwegian will pretty much remain more or less the same (although with a reduced size initially and some adjustment to their business while demand recovers). This would also be the preferred option for Norway, as they would keep an important global player with their brand, keep Norway connected to the world, save thousands of norwegian jobs and tax revenue for both company and staff, and still leave the door open to a partial nationalisation of a much healthier airline. Current shareholders would be diluted to almost nothing, but still better than nothing.

2.- Bondholders and creditors do no trust the business plan and prefer to take the risk of repossessing their assets and try to place them somewhere else despite the current turmoil. Norway then would not likely come to the rescue, as norwegian would not be worth saving as it´s simply too big and saddled with enormous debt. The company would then go into bankruptcy proceedings. Norway will then get some of the regional 737 operation at liquidation prices by reopening a much smaller norwegian or similar and rescuing most of their local norwegian jobs. Shareholders will lose everything and RYANAIR will come in and buy the long haul operation for peanuts, something they're very good at, probably even keeping the brand if the price is right, or else redeploying elsewhere where money is to be made with brand new B787, slots, and a market where only a few players will be left to compete. He did it in 9/11 and he'll do it again now. Many employees will also be rescued as the operation is ready to go, albeit with diminished conditions.

Either way, those who believe that the current norwegian will be saved by either creditors or Norway to become a much smaller regional company based in Oslo are either:

a.- Dreaming.
b.- Small shareholders that have not accepted their fate and who think their country would rescue them regardless.
c.- Die hard norwegian citizens that believe that they will keep their non-stop services to LAX and JFK from their hometowns even though Scandinavia simply doesn't have the catchment area or critical mass to make money in long haul and also cannot attract enough tourists to make it profitable.

I truly hope for the first option...

[SSDK]

I think the survival of Norwegian is in everybody's interest! - Even if it's by bailout or other means. If we lose another big player in Europe the market will be flodded with pilots once again, and the recovery will take ages. It would seriously suck for the people working in norwegian, but try and think big picture for a moment! Many other respectable airlines will no doubt downsize in the times to come with people losing jobs far and wide. That goes for legacy carriers and direct competitors to Norwegian as well. If we don´t keep at least some airlines running on lifesupport it will water down the job market, and as we know not a single pilot will be safe for a very long time. You may think you will be ok with any legacy-type carrier but I think this will likely affect everyone - big and small.

I'll be signing that petition and i'll keep my fingers crossed for Norwegian.

[Paul737]

What's next, either:

1.- Bondholders and creditors agree to CEO Jacob´s plan by Apr 30th to swap (most of) their debt into equity, leaving norwegian with a decent balance sheet in order to survive the crisis, obtain further loans from Norway or other lenders and restart operations in a gradual manner when conditions permit. This can only happen if creditors believe in norwegian as a global business and are obviously pressured by the fact that by not accepting the offer, they're left with either loosing most of their money in bankruptcy proceedings, or recovering assets which are very hard to place right now (acft, slots, hangars...). This option would be the best for all employees as norwegian will pretty much remain more or less the same (although with a reduced size initially and some adjustment to their business while demand recovers). This would also be the preferred option for Norway, as they would keep an important global player with their brand, keep Norway connected to the world, save thousands of norwegian jobs and tax revenue for both company and staff, and still leave the door open to a partial nationalisation of a much healthier airline. Current shareholders would be diluted to almost nothing, but still better than nothing.

2.- Bondholders and creditors do no trust the business plan and prefer to take the risk of repossessing their assets and try to place them somewhere else despite the current turmoil. Norway then would not likely come to the rescue, as norwegian would not be worth saving as it´s simply too big and saddled with enormous debt. The company would then go into bankruptcy proceedings. Norway will then get some of the regional 737 operation at liquidation prices by reopening a much smaller norwegian or similar and rescuing most of their local norwegian jobs. Shareholders will lose everything and RYANAIR will come in and buy the long haul operation for peanuts, something they're very good at, probably even keeping the brand if the price is right, or else redeploying elsewhere where money is to be made with brand new B787, slots, and a market where only a few players will be left to compete. He did it in 9/11 and he'll do it again now. Many employees will also be rescued as the operation is ready to go, albeit with diminished conditions.

Either way, those who believe that the current norwegian will be saved by either creditors or Norway to become a much smaller regional company based in Oslo are either:

a.- Dreaming.
b.- Small shareholders that have not accepted their fate and who think their country would rescue them regardless.
c.- Die hard norwegian citizens that believe that they will keep their non-stop services to LAX and JFK from their hometowns even though Scandinavia simply doesn't have the catchment area or critical mass to make money in long haul and also cannot attract enough tourists to make it profitable.

I truly hope for the first option...

It`s funny to see how Norwegian employees try to justified or believe bondholders and creditors must agree with Jacob`s plan or they will loose everything based on factors such as there is no place where to put aircrafts, slots (Gatwick),... and then think about a quick market recovery and be profitable.

I understand you don't want to loose your job and base, but thinking creditors believe in norwegian as a global business is being a dreamer. Have you considered for a second that maybe the companies will be interested in replacing older 737/767/330/... with cheaper second hand 737/787? I can easily see Ryanair taking lots of Norwegian`s 737. And thinking Ryanair will come and buy the super profitable long haul operation is simply madness.

How is Norwegian going to be profitable in this market where the lessors, bondholders, creditors will loose everything if they don't accept Jacob's plan and there is no place for those aircrafts? There is no market where to put those aircrafts but there is market for Norwegian to keep them flying?

[737lpa]

Paul737,

1.- RYANAIR does not need to buy 737 from norwegian because the have over 500 of them on the line and over 200 on order.
2.- I haven't said that "creditors believe in norwegian as a global business", I have said that, for them to swap their debt into equity they either believe in norwegian as a global player (and not as a small regional airline based in OSL) or else they would just let the company go bust and recover their assets.
3.- Of course there will be companies wishing they could replace their 76´s for 78´s, but you need to be financially sound for that, and many won't be after this is over, hence RYR will be one of the very few to be able do that.
4.- In regards to your last statement, whether norwegian can be profitable or not, is precisely what the lessors, bondholders and creditors will have to believe in order to agree or not. Unfortunately the situation is what it is and it won't be easy for anyone, including employees and shareholders.

But in my opinion, one thing is certain. Norwegian will not be rescued (by either creditors or Norway) to become a small regional airline. It simply doesn't make sense. And that was the point of my previous post, as there are many comments in the thread implying that the new norwegian will be based in Oslo and make their money from an intra-scandinavian market, something impossible to materialise due to their size.

[Paul737]

737lpa,

Ryanair does not have more than 500. They actually have about 440. Many of them are pretty old and a lot where about to be replaced by the MAXs. Of course there is no need to talk about the MAX situation. And the (sad)truth is having seen how O´leary works, if that helps to make Norwegian go bust, of course RYANAIR would be interested in buying lot of 737 from Norwegian. I wouldn't be surprised if he has already been talking with the 737 lessors about that possibility.

My opinion (and a lot of people in Scandinavia as well) is that Norwegian is not profitable in its current form. No matter what Jacob said about they where heading to the best summer ever but he showed no proof of that (if that was the case the cash flow would have been way better). You only had to check the load factor before the corona crisis.

I think the company will be saved by Scandinavia, but not to become a small regional airline and do only intra-scandinavian flights as you mentioned. They will close all the bases outside Scandinavia and from there compete with SAS having around 80 aircrafts (including some 787s) flying to and from the rest of Europe.

[Denti]

I think the survival of Norwegian is in everybody's interest! - Even if it's by bailout or other means. If we lose another big player in Europe the market will be flodded with pilots once again, and the recovery will take ages. It would seriously suck for the people working in norwegian, but try and think big picture for a moment! Many other respectable airlines will no doubt downsize in the times to come with people losing jobs far and wide. That goes for legacy carriers and direct competitors to Norwegian as well. If we don´t keep at least some airlines running on lifesupport it will water down the job market, and as we know not a single pilot will be safe for a very long time. You may think you will be ok with any legacy-type carrier but I think this will likely affect everyone - big and small.

I'll be signing that petition and i'll keep my fingers crossed for Norwegian.

No, quite honestly the survival of Norwegian is not in everybody's interest. Yes, the market will undoubtedly be flooded with out of work pilots, it started already a year ago and it will accelerate now of course. However, keeping a business zombie alive will endanger more jobs in viable carriers that have to compete against an artificially kept afloat one. Consolidation in Europe is necessary and overdue, and that does mean that only a few big carriers survive plus a few niche and ACMI carriers. If Norwegian leaves the market, there is a certain part of the market not served anymore, and other carriers will move in and do that, meaning the big carriers will either not downsize as much or even grow a bit initially, and a lot in the long run, generating stable jobs.

Yes, i feel for the employees, i've been in a similar situation, and yes, unemployment sucks. A lot. However, i would wish them to get good jobs in the future without the daily worry if the carrier will go under next winter or not. And that will be easier if more stable carriers can move into the void of an imploding Norwegian.

That said, the decisions will be taken elsewhere, and i seriously doubt any internet petition will change anything one way or another.

[737lpa]

Paul737,

Scandinavia has already turned their back to norwegian except for Norway, which is also placing very difficult conditions in order to get a loan guarantee of €250 million, which is not anywhere near what's needed in order to weather this storm out with their current debt levels of almost €8,000 million. That's not to say that Scandinavia, or any other region in the world, can get 80 or whichever amount of aircraft from the market (including a bankrupt norwegian on liquidation) and put a new company up if they see fit. But closing all the bases in norwegian, downzizing fleets, decommissioning their LH ops and firing all its employees abroad without filing for bankruptcy will already be more expensive than the loan from Norway. If creditors don't believe in the current norwegian, the new norwegian will have to start from scratch after liquidation, as it's happened before in many airlines (air berlin, etc...).

Scandinavian bases are not an asset, except for Scandinavian countries. For any money making business, Scandinavian countries are expensive because their living standards are very high and their welfare system is well above average, not to mention their tax rates, social security entitlements, small catchment areas, little touristic interest for foreigners and poor traffic figures in general. That's why the predominant carriers are mostly state owned like Finnair and SAS, which on top of everything is loss making and has been for decades and which has been rescued multiple times, including now. If norwegian goes bust, only a loss making state run company like SAS will have bases in Scandinavia. I doubt that Noway or any other country will be in a rush to set up another company with public money to compete against SAS, and the other possibility left will be that RYR, or similar, will take whatever part of the business they see fit, and with the employment conditions that they see fit, including basing their crews well away from Scandinavia.

Surely aircraft lessors would have been talking to RYR about their chances of placing their grounded aircraft, but I think there is much more interest in their B787 fleet for the fact that it would open new markets and it's a very demanded aircraft right now, than their B737´s, for which there are plenty more of opportunities after the MAX fiasco and their associated cancellations. Besides, remember that RYR has already huge amounts of B737 coming their way.

Again, we're all entitled to our opinion, and we will soon find out what the final outcome is. One way or the other, aviation will overcome this crisis like it has in the past. but it will take some time...

[A319]

Paul737,

Scandinavian bases are not If norwegian goes bust, only a loss making state run company like SAS will have bases in Scandinavia. I doubt that Noway or any other country will be in a rush to set up another company with public money to compete against SAS, and the other possibility left will be that RYR, or similar, will take whatever part of the business they see fit, and with the employment conditions that they see fit, including basing their crews well away from Scandinavia.

Since the financial crisis SAS has made a profit every year except 2014. Compare that to NAS...

[SSDK]

No, quite honestly the survival of Norwegian is not in everybody's interest. Yes, the market will undoubtedly be flooded with out of work pilots, it started already a year ago and it will accelerate now of course. However, keeping a business zombie alive will endanger more jobs in viable carriers that have to compete against an artificially kept afloat one. Consolidation in Europe is necessary and overdue, and that does mean that only a few big carriers survive plus a few niche and ACMI carriers. If Norwegian leaves the market, there is a certain part of the market not served anymore, and other carriers will move in and do that, meaning the big carriers will either not downsize as much or even grow a bit initially, and a lot in the long run, generating stable jobs.

Yes, i feel for the employees, i've been in a similar situation, and yes, unemployment sucks. A lot. However, i would wish them to get good jobs in the future without the daily worry if the carrier will go under next winter or not. And that will be easier if more stable carriers can move into the void of an imploding Norwegian.

That said, the decisions will be taken elsewhere, and i seriously doubt any internet petition will change anything one way or another.

Well, agree to disagree I guess. I still think that this is the time for keeping most airlines up and running with other than normal market forces. I think most legacy carriers would rather be fighting it out with the likes of Norwegian than Ryanair and Wizz - Because that's a battle they will lose in the long run. The general population have a short memory. I think we will see a fairly quick return in pax numbers at the end of the year (not as before, naturally) and as soon as we find a better way of treating Covid-19 there will be more people interested in travelling. But hey - i'm an optimist.... We will se on the 4th of May....

Best of luck....

[SSDK]

SAS has been bailed out 4 or 5 times and was finally getting better. If they can get it right after a crisis with a bit of government help, so can Norwegian. Still hoping for the best. We need some good news in european aviation!

[Paul737]

Since the financial crisis SAS has made a profit every year except 2014. Compare that to NAS...

Exactly!!! And is more or less when NAS started to open bases outside Scandinavia

[uncle-traveling-matt]

Since the financial crisis SAS has made a profit every year except 2014. Compare that to NAS...

Made on the backs of cheap sub contracted labour, now threatening your very own existence! X fly, Cityjet, Nordica ...Your own CEO is trying to replace you, all the while SAIL is taking over more and more of your network. Upgrades on forced part time during winter, variable rosters. The list is endless.

SAS = Debt 50 billion swedish kr. Equity 4.4 billion. Don't come here and spout drivel. How many loan guarantees from the scandi governments were issued between 2008 and 2012 to save SAS? Norwegian might be in trouble, but SAS is right behind them.

[MDS]

If Norwegian employed their staff under Norwegian contracts, paid Norwegian tax, and domiciled their cash in Norway as per their deceptive namesake, then by all means they'd have the right to ask the Norwegian government for a bailout (regardless of if they operated JFK-CDG, or TFS-MUC).

However, they didn't. They opted to use as many legal loopholes as possible (not ethical, but legal) to minimize the burden on the company at the expense of the staff and pay as little tax as possible.

Now, when times are tough, they want taxpayer cash. Absolutely NOT!

This is called the chickens coming home to roost.

Playing silly buggers by operating multiple AOC's, employing some staff on third world contracts, and now expecting the same country you've tried to unethically swindle to hand over cash? Tough salami.

[A319]

Made on the backs of cheap sub contracted labour, now threatening your very own existence! X fly, Cityjet, Nordica ...Your own CEO is trying to replace you, all the while SAIL is taking over more and more of your network. Upgrades on forced part time during winter, variable rosters. The list is endless.

SAS = Debt 50 billion swedish kr. Equity 4.4 billion. Don't come here and spout drivel. How many loan guarantees from the scandi governments we're issued between 2008 and 2012 to save SAS? Norwegian might be in trouble, but SAS is right behind them.

So you agree your first post regarding profitability was warm air, much like Kjos.

How many loan guarantees for SAS? I know there was 2. The first payed of with a significant financial gain for the government and therefore the tax payer. The 2nd was never used by SAS.

The Corona loan guarantee given to SAS (this one also not used) by the Norwegian government has the exact same conditions as Norwegians and Widerøe...

For the sake of the crews in NAS I wish for a good outcome. Be safe and healthy.

[victorpapa]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton1/2020/04/19/norwegian-airs-paradox-strong-covid-19-recovery-if-it-avoids-bankruptcy/

[Luke258]

If Norwegian employed their staff under Norwegian contracts, paid Norwegian tax, and domiciled their cash in Norway as per their deceptive namesake, then by all means they'd have the right to ask the Norwegian government for a bailout (regardless of if they operated JFK-CDG, or TFS-MUC).

However, they didn't. They opted to use as many legal loopholes as possible (not ethical, but legal) to minimize the burden on the company at the expense of the staff and pay as little tax as possible.

Now, when times are tough, they want taxpayer cash. Absolutely NOT!

This is called the chickens coming home to roost.

Playing silly buggers by operating multiple AOC's, employing some staff on third world contracts, and now expecting the same country you've tried to unethically swindle to hand over cash? Tough salami.
What a load of BS.

[uncle-traveling-matt]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton1/2020/04/19/norwegian-airs-paradox-strong-covid-19-recovery-if-it-avoids-bankruptcy/

Finally a well balanced piece of journalism, covering the positive as well as the negative facts regarding the current situation at NAS.

[Paul737]

Forbes article is assuming flying post-COVID will be normal and we still don’t know that. Most probably it will take a lot to recover “normality”.

It also states: As Norwegian restructures, it may rely on its original market's where it is better known and financial performance is strong. Norwegian gained wider attention for its global that did not come close to Norway or anywhere in Scandinavia: London to Rio de Janeiro, Rome to Los Angeles.

A word to the wise...

I still fail to see how a market after COVID can give you a strong recovery but at the same time in the same market the creditors will be stuck with an asset that will not be in high demand as aviation suffers from over-capacity in the near future (if they don't accept Jacob's plan)

[MDS]

What a load of BS.

You think that the Norwegian taxpayer should be on the hook to save this airline?

The same airline with 7 AOC's and has 70% of their fleet registered overseas?
The same airline that domiciles as much of their European fleet as possible in Ireland specifically to evade Norwegian tax?
The same airline that employed crew on Thai contracts to avoid Norwegian employer obligations?

It's completely facetious to claim that these things are only necessities and not calculated methods of skirting their ethical obligations to save as much money as possible.

Now it's the Norwegian taxpayer's obligation to save this airline? Yeah, no.

NAS shares are down from almost $40 two years ago, to $0.50, with staggering debt. The writing is on the wall, as every sensible investor has agreed. Even Bjorn Kjos has pulled the rip cord and ejected. Judging by the recent stock performance there's not even a murmur of confidence in the operation.

If the Norwegian government should bail the airline out, it should be the Norwegian part of the operation only. If NAI needs saving, that's Dublin's prerogative; the same with NUK being London's problem. The Norwegian government shouldn't give a toss about British punters flying from LGW-JFK.

They've clearly tried to milk the fluidity of their Norwegian name to their advantage, however in these trying times it has come back to bite them on their backside. They could have easily distinguished their separate AOC's with different distinctive brands (without the Norwegian name), but opted not to. This is a mess of their own making.

[SWBKCB]

Forbes article is assuming flying post-COVID will be normal and we still don’t know that. Most probably it will take a lot to recover “normality”.

It also assumes that the oil price stays low, as the articles arguement is that Norwegian will have a competitve advantage as all it's competitors have hedged at a higher price. Hmmm...

[737lpa]

MDS,

Unfortunately, Norway cannot cherry pick which parts of the company to bail out because it's just one company, and its massive debt bonds are issued to that one company, the same as its shareholders and stock listings are just to one single entity, regardless of how many AOC's, European bases, or foreign staff they have in their network for operational reasons.

This is why the creditors must either believe in their whole project or not. And the same for a public bail out. Otherwise it simply does not make any sense because they would carry on an enormous debt to just keep a miniscule part of the operation, and that's just not worth it financially.

Also, if they bail out norwegian but only want the actual Nordic part, they will have to dismiss so much staff across their multiple bases (along with their severance packages) that would make it very difficult for them to start up again.

Again, it's either the whole package, or bankruptcy, and then YES. You can now pick up the pieces you want along with any other parties to create whatever you wish.

[Kirks gusset]

This Reuters article shows that the lease companies may feel a bit compromised and have little choice, although of interest is the statement:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norwegianair-bondholders/norwegian-air-to-overhaul-its-strategy-in-wake-of-pandemic-bondholder-idUSKBN21Z2V5

"A source close to one of the lessors described the talks as a “long shot”, while conceding that collapsed aircraft demand could work in the deal’s favour. “If we had somewhere else to move our planes, it would be liquidation,” the person said. Could be gossip, but if true suggests they would happily pull the plug if market conditions allowed.
What NAS need a huge credit line, wad of cash and a bit of luck...it would be a shame to see another newish player wiped out by reckless management, having said that the NAS management did try and address the problems in 2019, maybe a little too late..At least the re-structuring, plan closing Spanish bases and concentrating on LH ops profitability models may reap the rewards given their fuel price advantages.

[SWBKCB]

Unfortunately, Norway cannot cherry pick which parts of the company to bail out because it's just one company, and its massive debt bonds are issued to that one company, the same as its shareholders and stock listings are just to one single entity, regardless of how many AOC's, European bases, or foreign staff they have in their network for operational reasons.

So how does this stack up with the ownership requirements for the various AOC's?


A source close to one of the lessors described the talks as a “long shot”, while conceding that collapsed aircraft demand could work in the deal’s favour. “If we had somewhere else to move our planes, it would be liquidation,” the person said. Could be gossip, but if true suggests they would happily pull the plug if market conditions allowed.

Probably a fair point - what's the biggest gamble for the leasing company, support Norwegian and they carry on making their payments or let them go bust and place the a/c elsewhere....

[737lpa]

[QUOTE=SWBKCB;10755906]So how does this stack up with the ownership requirements for the various AOC's?


The requirements don't change. Many airlines have different AOC's and registrations, but doesn't make them different entities when it comes to ownership. Even SAS has bases in continental Europe and an irish AOC for operational reasons.

And don't get me wrong. It may very well be that norwegian indeed goes bust and is then reborn as a Nordic player with just 737's. But that's not a bail out or a a debt to equity swap as it's being discussed right now. It'll be a full rebirth of something else, although with maybe even the same planes, part of the Nordic staff and even the same brand if the creditors get a fair price in liquidation.

[november.sierra]

MDS, can we stick to facts here please?

- There are 5 AOC's in the Norwegian group not 7!
- You claim that 70% of the fleet is based in Ireland for tax purposes, again nowhere close and it isn't for tax purposes. As Norway isn't an EU member, an EU AOC was required to get access to long haul markets hence NAI was set up. NAI however, was always supposed to be a Swedish operation based on the old flyNordic AOC which was kept dormant for that purpose once the takeover was completed. However, banking regulations in place in Sweden at the time had a clause that stated that in case of airline bankruptcies, the guarantors had no right to reposess their airframes which was something that the Americans had a problem with given that the aircraft order was facilitated by US ExIm financing, thus Sweden was no longer possible. Pretty much the only choice left then was Ireland and NAI was set up as an Irish operation. Since then, said banking regulation has been removed from Swedish law and NAI has now been downsized somewhat in favour of the Swedish AOC with over half the NAI fleet being placed there.
- Thai crews being employed on the cheap? The BKK base is no more! Say no more...

I fail to see the points you're trying to make! Lufthansa is being bailed out by the German government despite the Lufthansa Group consisting of several AOC's, several airlines mainly on non-German AOC's. SAS is being bailed out by Sweden, Denmark and Norway including their SAIL operation. The Polish government is bailing out LOT, despite the fact that the operation isn't only Poland based, TUI is being bailed out by the German government and what proportion of the operation is German based? etc etc... Multinational airlines with transnational operations consisting of several AOC's are widespread so that particular argument doesn't wash with me!

I will agree that mistakes have been made, but these were made by the previous regime that has now been replaced with seasoned professionals at the helm. Not airline managers no, but the so-called airline managers nearly ran the company in the ground. Having a retail specialist in charge that is an expert in branding is exactly what the company needs, boosting ancillary revenue is exactly what's needed, especially to make low cost long haul a success. Let's not write the company off just yet!

[Old King Coal]

Norwegian Air Creditors May Have No Choice But to Accept Offerhttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-17/norwegian-air-creditors-may-have-no-choice-but-to-accept-offer

[GlueBall]

Norwegian Air Creditors May Have No Choice But to Accept Offer...or pull the plug on impractical reality...because it's hard trying to make chickensalad out of chickensh|t. The share price is down 85% and market value is about $84 million. And that's below the value of just one (1) Dreamliner. Go figure.

[Joe le Taxi]

Bond holders can normally extract a few cents in the dollar following administration, (unlike shareholders). I recall Gatwick slots were used as collateral elsewhere(?), but theyre likely to have valid claims on other liquidation assets, so it comes down to whether that's worth more than swapping the positions for equity. It's quite common for private equity to go short on the shares and long on the bonds in the dying days of a company.

[8che]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhorton1/2020/04/19/norwegian-airs-paradox-strong-covid-19-recovery-if-it-avoids-bankruptcy/#61337227d6d8

[RexBanner]

Already posted see #373 above.

[Tom!]

https://www.aftonbladet.se/minekonomi/a/opboqV/konkurs-for-norwegianbolag
https://reut.rs/3brh4Zs
Norway's pilot and cabin companies in Sweden and Denmark are filing for bankruptcy, according to a press release from the company.
The decision applies to four subsidiaries: Pilot Services Sweden AB, Norwegian Pilot Services Denmark ApS, Norwegian Cabin Services Denmark ApS and Norwegian Air Resources Denmark LH ApS. Norwegian has also terminated its agreements with the companies OSM Aviation and Rishworth.
"The pilots and cabin crew are mainly employed by various subsidiaries in the Norwegian group. Despite all the measures taken by the company to reduce costs, unfortunately there is no other alternative for the board of these companies than to apply for bankruptcy," the company writes in the press release.
The companies to which the bankruptcy petition applies and the agreements terminated affect a total of 1,571 pilots and 3,124 cabin employees in Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Spain, the UK and the US, the company writes.
The company will hold a press conference during the afternoon.

[EIFFS]

Very much as predicted a couple of weeks back, cut the limbs off and save core (K area) live (maybe) to fight another day.

Sad news, but that amount of debt is no match for Covid-19

[737lpa]

Very much as predicted a couple of weeks back, cut the limbs off and save core (K area) live (maybe) to fight another day.

Sad news, but that amount of debt is no match for Covid-19

Again, they're getting rid of staff employment subsidiaries which were already laid off anyway. That doesn't change the debt pile as they had no assets. Those companies are like agencies in their respective countries. No bondholder or government (including Norway) will jump into an €8,000 million debt pile to keep an small operation in Norway.

Also, I don't think it's coincidental that they have made headlines with Sweden and Denmark, as both countries denied help to norwegian.

[Kirks gusset]

Credit Suisse writes that the airline’s moves are “suggesting to us it may close its Gatwick/Spanish bases”. ? didn't they already state this as part of the planned "restructure" or was this the worst kept secret in history! thoughts go out for the people effected by this mess, not only crews but handlers and ground staff also ,and the way things are shaping up at Gatwick "ghost town" lights off at the end of the tunnel for the time being sadly. If there is any resurgence they should commit to taking on the displaced crews as a priority rather than come up with some more devious employment models in the name of "cost reduction"

[BehindBlueEyes]

Dear Colleagues

As reported earlier BALPA met in conference with the CEO & COO of OSM along with union representatives from across the Norwegian network.

We can report from the UK that all crews will remain employed by OSM, and OSM are actively pursuing the Job Retention Scheme for their employees.

BALPA is in constant contact with OSM, and we aim to provide members with a more detailed update via a conference meeting tomorrow. Members will be invited to participate via an email tomorrow.

During the OSM meeting OSMs’ CEO Espen Høiby provided the following press release:

Statement regarding Norwegian’s termination of agreement with OSM Aviation

We regret that Norwegian has chosen to terminate the agreement with OSM Aviation. We have kept a close dialogue with the company and had hoped that the agreement could be continued in some form until the airline receives crisis funds from the Norwegian authorities. In the upcoming days, we will evaluate the consequences for OSM Aviation and our employees.

Our goal is to retain our skilled employees so that we may quickly provide Norwegian and other airlines with pilots and cabin crew as soon as government restrictions cease, and people once again will have the opportunity to travel. The airlines have suffered huge losses as a result of the covid-19 crisis.

We would like to emphasise that OSM Aviation has great sympathy with the difficult situation that Norwegian and the rest of the aviation and tourism industry are facing. We have done everything we can to support Norwegian and other customers after the outbreak of the covid-19 epidemic and have maintained a close and good cooperation around the suspension or layoffs of air crew in many countries.

We do not agree with Norwegian on the grounds of termination of the agreement with OSM Aviation. At this point, however, we focus primarily on Norwegian coming to an agreement with their owners and creditors so that the company may qualify for crisis assistance from the authorities and can continue working with OSM Aviation as an important partner.

[Jonnyknoxville]

Great work by BALPA once again .... Keep everyone employed by ... nobody

[CEJM]

Great work by BALPA once again .... Keep everyone employed by ... nobody

What else do you suggest that Balpa does?

At least now the crews can be furloughed and get £2500 for the government. Otherwise it would be off to the Job Centre and down to Job Seekers Allowance at £97 every 14 days. I know what figure I prefer to receive for the next few months.

[Meester proach]

Better than nothing, but rearranging deckchairs on he titanic if NAS have decided to ditch everything outside Norway

[CEJM]

Better than nothing, but rearranging deckchairs on he titanic if NAS have decided to ditch everything outside Norway

Very true Meester but 3 months on furlough will at least give everybody some time to collect their thoughts. Being made redundant and losing your income overnight is even more stressful. Especially when at the moment nobody is hiring. In 3 months time the situation MAY be a bit clearer.

[Whitemonk Returns]

I am glad the families of these crews will be kept afloat with the JRS over the coming months but what do people expect working for companies with these dodgy contract arrangements? I appreciate no one could forsee Covid 19 but these men and women working for the likes of Wizz Air or Norweigen deserve very little sympathy. We are all responsible for the decisions we make, and who our employer is has to be among the biggest ones we have control over.

I flew with a great Captain years ago who told me how he had spent a few days in a row moping about his house as a young man after some unfortunate luck. His father called him into the living room and told him to go upstairs and look himself in the mirror and tell himself: 'Everything is my F-ing fault'... He still tells himself this every day, and the guy is a legend.

Its like Ryanair crews complaining they get treated like ****, what do you expect?! We live in a world, and particularly an industry, where nobody is prepared to take responsibility for where they end up.

[iome]

I am glad the families of these crews will be kept afloat with the JRS over the coming months but what do people expect working for companies with these dodgy contract arrangements? I appreciate no one could forsee Covid 19 but these men and women working for the likes of Wizz Air or Norweigen deserve very little sympathy. We are all responsible for the decisions we make, and who our employer is has to be among the biggest ones we have control over.

I flew with a great Captain years ago who told me how he had spent a few days in a row moping about his house as a young man after some unfortunate luck. His father called him into the living room and told him to go upstairs and look himself in the mirror and tell himself: 'Everything is my F-ing fault'... He still tells himself this every day, and the guy is a legend.

Its like Ryanair crews complaining they get treated like ****, what do you expect?! We live in a world, and particularly an industry, where nobody is prepared to take responsibility for where they end up.

What a load of bs
And that legend of yours needs to test for depression

[Capt Scribble]

Plum, others are allowed to have opinions contrary to your own. Those views may be unpalatable but its hardly a secret as to the disaster that is unfolding. Im sure that there is something about insulting comments in the T&Cs.

[plumponpies]

And my opinion still stands.

[Kirks gusset]

Surely if OSM are owed money from NAS, they are a creditor and the contract between OSM and NAS would not be officially terminated until the funds were paid? Of course it's a tricky position as OSM want to/hope to work with NAS in the future, but isn't this going to be a bit of a brain teaser for the UK Government under the JRS as the "jobs" don't actually exist anymore, unless OSM argue they want to keep "crew on the books" after the 3 months JRS, in which case OSM then are picking the baby up with the bath water. I don't understand these figures either? https://companycheck.co.uk/company/09462762/OSM-AVIATION-MANAGEMENT-UK-LIMITED/financials
5 million assets?

[Whitemonk Returns]

[QUOTE=.the contract arrangements are no better or worse than a lot of other deals.[/QUOTE]

And therein lies the point. As pilots we pride ourselves on our decision making in the aircraft yet refuse to apply the same levels of long term planning to our own careers. Look at the basket case of companies who are dead or on life support right now. NAS, SAA, Virigin? Anyone who couldn't see the writing on the wall pre Covid, during the greatest jobs market over the last 5 years we will likely see for some time, really needs to look in that mirror. I don't rejoice in the difficulties we are all facing and I genuinely wish the best for all our grounded colleagues in the coming months, but shed a tear for NAS? ... I think not.

[RexBanner]

Whitemonk Returns whilst I take your point to a certain extent, nobody could have predicted this. There are pilots at easyJet and BA who are desperately worrying about their prospects FFS, I’m one of them. The two most secure jobs in aviation. Should I have planned for this and never joined BA or taken out a mortgage? Have some decorum, people are really struggling.

[truckflyer]

So what is the reality of the Norwegian story here?

Now somebody please tell me if I am wrong.
Norwegian cutting ties with OSM and other Norwegian subsidiaries, OSM and these Norwegian Subsidiaries are independent companies, basically this is NAS way to get rid of XX millions of liabilities and debts.

As far as I understand, this was one of the main reasons Norwegian in Norway went on strike a few years ago, as now Norwegian still have all the aircraft, but severed their ties with these companies who they had an agreement.

Don't forget that these are all subsidiaries of Norwegian, and Norwegian have now shown the world what they were designed for, cut their losses while they can and save the remaining part of the airline in case of such an economic downturn.

We do not need to go very far back in this thread, where I was warning against exactly this issue, and there were people gloating that they had the same job security as anyone else in the company, absolute BS.

NAS knows the government will not provide support for all the subsidiaries around the world, but now a slimmed down NAS, where they main market is Scandinavia / Norway, that's a different story, they will probably get support to preserve the Norwegian Core contracts / jobs.

So OSM now have X amount of pilots, but OSM don't have a single aircraft, and these subsidiaries are all going bankrupt and it will not effect Norwegian one dot, they have just been able to offload 4500 crew in one day, from their payroll with this despicable business model.

Still NAS have all the aircraft, so if they now get government help, and they can get back to business, they will just setup a new agency to hire pilots, pilots who will not be working for an airline, but job agency, without any assets.

Wake up guys, this is a shambles.

[SSDK]

And therein lies the point. As pilots we pride ourselves on our decision making in the aircraft yet refuse to apply the same levels of long term planning to our own careers. Look at the basket case of companies who are dead or on life support right now. NAS, SAA, Virigin? Anyone who couldn't see the writing on the wall pre Covid, during the greatest jobs market over the last 5 years we will likely see for some time, really needs to look in that mirror. I don't rejoice in the difficulties we are all facing and I genuinely wish the best for all our grounded colleagues in the coming months, but shed a tear for NAS? ... I think not.

So you base every decision in your life on probability? NAS was in for the best result in their history, whilst having completely restructured the company in the process for the better with a completely new management. Should you never take a chance with something that is about to turn around? would you do the same with people?

Besides, You are speaking as if everybody in NAS has always had a much better choice? If you are from Norway, Sweden or Denmark - Where else would you go? Who on earth would have been able to compete with the contracts they had in those countries? And is it always better to commute in the name of "just in case"?

I'm sorry, but your comment makes very little sense in the context of living a normal life with other needs than "having a 100% secure job with the best T&C's in the bizz". Besides, I see a lot of hating on Norwegian T&C's? Have you guys actually seen a contract from Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Spain or the UK? Or is it all from the usual twisted "cockpit gossip"?

As RexBanner says, we are all caught with our pants down at the moment. Only question is who get's to sit when the music stops next time?! Wish the best for ALL your colleagues in aviation right now. Behind the eternal talks of T&C's, old grudges and uneducated opinions are real people who are about to experience possibly the biggest personal crisis in their lifetime.

Get ride of the "I'm alright jack" mentality and show some support!

[BehindBlueEyes]

So you base every decision in your life on probability? NAS was in for the best result in their history, whilst having completely restructured the company in the process for the better with a completely new management. Should you never take a chance with something that is about to turn around? would you do the same with people?

Besides, You are speaking as if everybody in NAS has always had a much better choice? If you are from Norway, Sweden or Denmark - Where else would you go? Who on earth would have been able to compete with the contracts they had in those countries? And is it always better to commute in the name of "just in case"?

I'm sorry, but your comment makes very little sense in the context of living a normal life with other needs than "having a 100% secure job with the best T&C's in the bizz". Besides, I see a lot of hating on Norwegian T&C's? Have you guys actually seen a contract from Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Spain or the UK? Or is it all from the usual twisted "cockpit gossip"?

As RexBanner says, we are all caught with our pants down at the moment. Only question is who get's to sit when the music stops next time?! Wish the best for ALL your colleagues in aviation right now. Behind the eternal talks of T&C's, old grudges and uneducated opinions are real people who are about to experience possibly the biggest personal crisis in their lifetime.

Get ride of the "I'm alright jack" mentality and show some support!

Thank you and very well said. My son is one of the many caught up in this predicament and is now awaiting to hear his fate and his future.

[truckflyer]

So you base every decision in your life on probability? NAS was in for the best result in their history, whilst having completely restructured the company in the process for the better with a completely new management. Should you never take a chance with something that is about to turn around? would you do the same with people?

Besides, You are speaking as if everybody in NAS has always had a much better choice? If you are from Norway, Sweden or Denmark - Where else would you go? Who on earth would have been able to compete with the contracts they had in those countries? And is it always better to commute in the name of "just in case"?

I'm sorry, but your comment makes very little sense in the context of living a normal life with other needs than "having a 100% secure job with the best T&C's in the bizz". Besides, I see a lot of hating on Norwegian T&C's? Have you guys actually seen a contract from Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Spain or the UK? Or is it all from the usual twisted "cockpit gossip"?

As RexBanner says, we are all caught with our pants down at the moment. Only question is who get's to sit when the music stops next time?! Wish the best for ALL your colleagues in aviation right now. Behind the eternal talks of T&C's, old grudges and uneducated opinions are real people who are about to experience possibly the biggest personal crisis in their lifetime.

Get ride of the "I'm alright jack" mentality and show some support!

Well the contracts for Denmark, Sweden, Spain and UK might have great TC's, but what good is that, when they can stop them just like they did today, that kind of makes a your statement about the great TC's a mute point.

As for Norwegians overall issues, COVID 19 was the straw that broke the camels back, just like FlyBe, however NAS had massive problems long before the virus hit them. Massive restructure, deferring loan payments, billions in debts, hardly any cash, expanded to fast, NAS have been wounded for a long time. There are threads many years back on NAS problems, this thread was started September 2019, again before COVID 19 occured.

Defend NAS business model, and talk about how great it is, while I am sure there are over 1500 pilots today, who disagree with this sentiment.

[SSDK]

Who on earth said NAS had been doing things well before they chose to try and turn thing around? You won't find anyone who will defend the company structure pre-"FOCUS19" as they called it. However, as I said before, things were changing for the better. Far better. It's never to late to turn things around and for that they deserve some credit.

As far as parts of the company going bust. Norwegian has been running out of money for some time, and as for the countries who still demand 70% or so paid salary during these hard times it was the straw that broke the camels back. What else should the company do? Just lay down and die for the sake of "What's right". At least people are now ironically left with a fighting chance until the 4th of May in the remaining countries before the final decisions will be made on NAS's fate. Many, many companies are build on the fact that there are flexibility to close down parts to save the core-business. It's just how business is done in a globalised world. Now I do not agree with all of the previous ways the company was run, but for me, it is impressive to see the change that has been going on for the last 18months or so. I have many friends in Norwegian (I used to work there myself until I had a chance to go home) and I have always been impressed with how much "can do" spirit there was amongst the crew.

And I actually think those 1500 pilots are able to see the big picture in what's going on. This is the biggest crisis on the aviation job-market since.... Well... forever. If you only direct your anger at the company, you have been paying very little attention to what is going on in the world right now. Even the most robust and stable companies are in full-on damage control mode. Nothing about what we see right now is normal, and not a single person on the planet knows were we are in 2-4-6-8 months. How on earth should any company act right now?

People tend to dwell on the past when it comes to Norwegian whilst completely ignoring were it was headed in terms of both the vision and the actual finances for 2020. It was, and still is a company with great potential and very good people. People who deserve more than the "keyboard warrior" comments on this forum as of lately.

Stay safe and Let's hope we all make it through this after all. Same goes for you "truckflyer".

[truckflyer]

"countries who still demand 70%"
What nonsense is this, this is generally government funding furlough payments, companies can't pay what they don't have, but these now can't even get government help the way the company is structured, with the possible exception of the UK part, which can get up to £2500 before tax and NI, which will equal to £1950 or so a month.

All companies have had to come with offers in these times, but NAS never stood a chance, because they simply don't have the cash to sustain it.
If they had not expanded so fast,and rather gone for steady growth, maybe they would have had more cash in the bank, however that is still a problem, and will be a problem again tomorrow and the next day for Norwegian, who now risk becoming a regional airline mostly doing European short haul. 2/3's of the company is gone at the moment.

However if you not employed by the airline, not even being union member can help you in situation like now, divide and conquer. As a professional I call it for what it is, an absolute disgrace, and I feel sorry for all the crews and great sympathy who in many ways was forced over to OSM without any choice of their own a few years back, and who now have suffered this terrible blow.

[Luke258]

"countries who still demand 70%"
What nonsense is this, this is generally government funding furlough payments, companies can't pay what they don't have, but these now can't even get government help the way the company is structured, with the possible exception of the UK part, which can get up to £2500 before tax and NI, which will equal to £1950 or so a month.

All companies have had to come with offers in these times, but NAS never stood a chance, because they simply don't have the cash to sustain it.
If they had not expanded so fast,and rather gone for steady growth, maybe they would have had more cash in the bank, however that is still a problem, and will be a problem again tomorrow and the next day for Norwegian, who now risk becoming a regional airline mostly doing European short haul. 2/3's of the company is gone at the moment.

However if you not employed by the airline, not even being union member can help you in situation like now, divide and conquer. As a professional I call it for what it is, an absolute disgrace, and I feel sorry for all the crews and great sympathy who in many ways was forced over to OSM without any choice of their own a few years back, and who now have suffered this terrible blow.
Thanks captain hindsight. If you really feel sorry for All the Crew will you just shut up about how it's Norwegian's own fault and that the remaining airline will go under soon and what not?

[srjumbo747]

"countries who still demand 70%"
What nonsense is this, this is generally government funding furlough payments, companies can't pay what they don't have, but these now can't even get government help the way the company is structured, with the possible exception of the UK part, which can get up to £2500 before tax and NI, which will equal to £1950 or so a month.

All companies have had to come with offers in these times, but NAS never stood a chance, because they simply don't have the cash to sustain it.
If they had not expanded so fast,and rather gone for steady growth, maybe they would have had more cash in the bank, however that is still a problem, and will be a problem again tomorrow and the next day for Norwegian, who now risk becoming a regional airline mostly doing European short haul. 2/3's of the company is gone at the moment.

However if you not employed by the airline, not even being union member can help you in situation like now, divide and conquer. As a professional I call it for what it is, an absolute disgrace, and I feel sorry for all the crews and great sympathy who in many ways was forced over to OSM without any choice of their own a few years back, and who now have suffered this terrible blow.
Whats wrong with this statement? Absolutely nothing.
Again, I feel desperately sorry for the crews but they were on their way out before COVID 19.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Of course no one could predict Covid 19 but those of you painting NAS as some white Knight on the road to recovery are way off. This company has failed because of the unsustainable amount of DEBT it used to compete with its rivals, competitors that would be sitting on much stronger balance sheets right now if it hadn't had to deal with Norweigen flying people around the world AT A LOSS for the last few years. I gather the 737 contract was well paid but I know the 787 one was not and it has been well documented on here, I know two individuals who left NAS who get paid more now to fly a 737 to the canaries than a 787 around the world, significantly more now in fact! If everyone wasn't rushing to get there Instagram photo of them on a shiny new 787 nobody would PAY 30,000 euro to accept that contract (and I know they paid it to you back over time, how nice of them!) It's like the guys in the Wizz Air thread defending the company for not paying day off payments but are happy to deduct you a day's pay for going sick, but the girls are so pretty... Unbelievable. Once the good times come again, and they will, all those airplanes are going to need flying, remember the companies that deserve your hard work.

[FullWings]

Well said. It’s important to note that you can be very sympathetic towards the plight of Norwegian employees and wish them all the best, but at the same time be pretty scathing about the business plans and general health of the company. It is an unfortunate truism that many airlines from history ran into trouble during an over-ambitious expansion phase coupled with market uncertainty.

It reminds me of the old saying attributed to head-in-the-clouds management from the .com bust era: “we lose on every sale but we’ll make it up in volume!!”, which fairly describes NAXs modus operandi in the last couple of years.

We are seeing an unprecedented fall in the demand for air travel with no real clear indication of what form/timing an eventual recovery will take. Even the strongest, cash-richest airlines are finding it extremely difficult. There is bound to be fallout/consolidation and unconditional support for failing businesses only increases the burden on other ones. Is there a future for some parts of Norwegian? I hope so but the LH bit of the operation as presented never really made commercial sense to me.

[Bergkamp10]

And therein lies the point. As pilots we pride ourselves on our decision making in the aircraft yet refuse to apply the same levels of long term planning to our own careers. Look at the basket case of companies who are dead or on life support right now. NAS, SAA, Virigin? Anyone who couldn't see the writing on the wall pre Covid, during the greatest jobs market over the last 5 years we will likely see for some time, really needs to look in that mirror. I don't rejoice in the difficulties we are all facing and I genuinely wish the best for all our grounded colleagues in the coming months, but shed a tear for NAS? ... I think not.

Good points Whitemonk! I cannot see any Government funded packages being available to NAS in UK or Ireland.

[Meester proach]

Keyboard warriors the lot of you.

theres no point banging in about business models or if it’s ethical to be employed on contracts - everyone knows what they sign and I’m always pragmatic about these things.

I turn up fly, do my best, go home. It’s not a religion, it’s not the reason I breath. It’s a job - if a better one comes I go, if they don’t need me anymore I go.

Even the strongest financial airlines aren’t exactly happy flappy with their employees are they ? Witness the land grab of previously agreed TCs at easy and I wouldn’t want to be way down the seniority at even big airways right now .

be nice for a bit of support and unity - but no, pilots are always self serving ego driven people at best .

[truckflyer]

Keyboard warriors the lot of you.

theres no point banging in about business models or if it’s ethical to be employed on contracts - everyone knows what they sign and I’m always pragmatic about these things.

I turn up fly, do my best, go home. It’s not a religion, it’s not the reason I breath. It’s a job - if a better one comes I go, if they don’t need me anymore I go.

Even the strongest financial airlines aren’t exactly happy flappy with their employees are they ? Witness the land grab of previously agreed TCs at easy and I wouldn’t want to be way down the seniority at even big airways right now .

be nice for a bit of support and unity - but no, pilots are always self serving ego driven people at best .

No completely correct, some years ago many was forced onto these contracts, that's why Norwegian Core in Norway went on strike for a few weeks.

[Kirks gusset]

Madrid, 21 de abril de 2020.



Norwegian Air Shuttle anunció ayer, de manera repentina y sin previo aviso a los representantes de los trabajadores, el cierre de las bases que la aerolínea escandinava tiene en España. Según han informado varios medios de comunicación, los pilotos que trabajan para Norwegian en España podrían ser despedidos, aunque aún no se ha anunciado ningún procedimiento legal al respecto, por lo que se desconoce la situación legal en la que quedan los trabajadores y de qué forma se les compensaría.

El anuncio del cierre de estas bases deja en un absoluto desamparo jurídico a los trabajadores de Norwegian, a quienes aún no se ha notificado la noticia a través de los cauces oficiales, por lo que desconocen en este momento qué derechos les amparan para hacer frente a esta situación. De hecho, Sepla estaba negociando con Norwegian un ERTE por causas objetivas, con el fin de buscar una solución de viabilidad a la empresa.

El anuncio de la matriz de cerrar sus bases en España, al mismo tiempo que aquí se estaba negociando otra solución para los trabajadores en nuestro país, es un síntoma más de la absoluta descoordinación e incluso incompatibilidad de políticas empresariales que en ocasiones existe entre una matriz y sus filiales, y cuyas consecuencias directas las sufren los trabajadores.

“Norwegian ha estado ocultando información desde el principio. Esta situación viene de mucho antes de que se cancelaran los vuelos por el coronavirus. Han estado negociando con nosotros un ERTE a pesar de que sabían desde hace tiempo que iban a cerrar -lamentan desde la Sección Sindical de Norwegian-. Además, tampoco han respetado las formas. Un cierre empresarial conlleva una serie de procedimientos legales en cuanto a notificación y argumentación de la necesidad de la medida. Norwegian no ha cumplido ni uno solo de ellos”.

Sepla se reserva el derecho de demandar a la aerolínea noruega ante cualquier jurisdicción.

In other words, looks like the Spanish Unions will start legal action against NAS. That's not too attractive to potential investors.. Live by the sword etc etc

[CEJM]

Spot on, Meester proach. Where years ago the competition was restricted to the commercial departments and crews would actually help each other. It didn’t matter what colour your jet had, if you could help a fellow aviator then that is what you did.

Nowadays the competition is between pilots. Let’s call for push and start, even though we are not 100% ready but at least we get away before xyz. It is pathetic, you never know where life takes you and what may have been your worst enemy at the start of the month could be your colleague at the end of the month.

Same as you, I go to work and do my job. The commercial department can fight over passengers, it has nothing to do with my daily running of the show.

[the_stranger]

Spot on, Meester proach. Where years ago the competition was restricted to the commercial departments and crews would actually help each other.
[...]
Nowadays the competition is between pilots.
While I understand and agree with your post, lets be honest, times have changed.

Pilots are in competition with eachother. Job security is lower than ever and when applying somewhere, there is always some other pilot willing to do the job for less or even is willing to pay for the job. And even when not applying, this behaviour is hurting other pilots' pay.

Even within companies there are more and more courtcases to gain something at expense of the rest.

Life itself is more selfish and therefore more competitive.

[FullWings]

Same as you, I go to work and do my job. The commercial department can fight over passengers, it has nothing to do with my daily running of the show.
Unfortunately, it affects whether you have a job and what it’s like in the future. Norwegian competing with IAG on North American routes by loss-leading pricing led to the formation of Level. Using larger, cheaper aeroplanes their raison-d'etre was to thwart/kill Norwegian LH and it looks like it was very successful. Hasn’t done much for the T&Cs of the airlines directly involved and it puts pressure on others to follow the downward spiral...

[Meester proach]

^^^^^
No the problems NAS have had were intially caused more by Boeing and rolls Royce causing massive sub charter and diluting the product badly. No one wants a wamos 330 turning up when they expected the IFE of 787.

As for level ,I never really saw them as competition because they weren’t on many routes we did .....IAG more so, hence the shoehorning of another seat on the back row of the Gatwick 777s....but that’s for the commercial department - we are all pilots and have more in common than petty tribal rivalry

[Luke258]

Of course no one could predict Covid 19 but those of you painting NAS as some white Knight on the road to recovery are way off. This company has failed because of the unsustainable amount of DEBT it used to compete with its rivals, competitors that would be sitting on much stronger balance sheets right now if it hadn't had to deal with Norweigen flying people around the world AT A LOSS for the last few years. I gather the 737 contract was well paid but I know the 787 one was not and it has been well documented on here, I know two individuals who left NAS who get paid more now to fly a 737 to the canaries than a 787 around the world, significantly more now in fact! If everyone wasn't rushing to get there Instagram photo of them on a shiny new 787 nobody would PAY 30,000 euro to accept that contract (and I know they paid it to you back over time, how nice of them!) It's like the guys in the Wizz Air thread defending the company for not paying day off payments but are happy to deduct you a day's pay for going sick, but the girls are so pretty... Unbelievable. Once the good times come again, and they will, all those airplanes are going to need flying, remember the companies that deserve your hard work.
​​​​​​It's a bonding, maybe you need to be clarified on what that means? Either you got the Bank guarantee or paid up front and got back all the money. What's your Problem about that exactly? How can you denounce hundreds and thousands of good pilots who flew or still fly for norwegian by saying they did it for the instagram pics? And don’t even get me started to on the t&c, because they were quite good. But clearly you got no clue. I am actually shocked on how you talk about a lot of people you don't even know.

[truckflyer]

The Crew who lost their job was not employed by the airline, that is the disgrace in this business model, and what NAS Norwegian pilots was fighting so hard for in their strike few years back.

This makes it easy for the company to cut all ties with the pilots, and they can save millions by screwing their crews.
Any pilot with self respect will call it for what it is, it does not mean I am blaming the crews working for these "shxt" agency companies, they have my greatest sympathy, some here speak about the great TC's provided, and I fully understand this, but what good is it if you can be cut loose this way, it's a rotten system, and I have little sympathy for the way the company has been operated and how they have let down the people working for them.

[Superpilot]

Of course, no one can defend atypical employment practices but you have to reason a little and try to understand why they have emerged.

There are probably more airlines in Europe that now operate an atypical employment structure than not. And with the recycling of the aviation industry that's about to take place, I can see every single new player doing the same. Primera, Norwegian and SAIL all have had the same agency based employment structures. SmartLynx, Avion, Small Planet all have been hiring and paying offshore through agencies for years. What pattern do you see here? None of the above are British companies but still want/wanted to do business out of here. Agency based employees are an easy, risk-free option for them. The alternative is for them to open their own HR departments in each of the countries they operate in (impractical). To open a local HR department, you need to launch a local subsidiary company (SmartLynx UK, Smarlynx France, Smartlynx Germany). In the case of some of these airlines they would need to open 20! What difference does it make though? The terms will still be ****.

The real question is this (and it probably applies to most Western European countries)...

When was the last time a UK registered, wholly based and HQd company launched an airline in the UK? You'd have to go back a long time if I'm not mistaken! No business person with a brain would spend their fortune launching an airline out of a Western European country. Big Europe has made it impossible for Western European airlines to compete with The Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians and Polish. Even The Vikings can undercut us thanks to their pent up billions and easy finance on tap. So much demand out of the UK over the last decade yet not a single sizable and meaningful 100% UK based operator has emerged to plug that gap, it's always a foreign player. This is the real issue. Big Europe and the undercutting of our businesses and livelihoods.

[teamax]

The lack of empathy towards Norwegian stems from the fact companies like them have driven down pay and T&Cs in the aviation sector. They cut financial corners meaning traditional airlines who are unable to do the same, turn to their employees for concessions in order to compete.
I do understand for those desperate to start in the industry that this type of company offered an opportunity, but it was at the expense of others.

[AKSAMAKSAM]

The relationship between NAS and OSM was no different than Ryanair and Brookfield , apart from the zero hours nonsense and paying for training, uniforms LPC etc etc, but that's history and old hat now. What was different was the relationship between the Pilots and the Company, NAS appeared all warm and cuddly at sim and induction sessions etc but were not as transparent as O'Leary, at least you knew where you stood with the guy. Up to now I have no real complaints about the NAS business practices, however, it is becoming increasingly obvious that they are consolidating in their own borders and slicing off the limbs without a blink. OSM don't have a clue what the position is, all this nonsense about retaining pilots waiting for the turn round is frankly bull.. its like a garage paying mechanics with no customers, will never happen. IF, and its a big IF OSM can get UK Government JRS support then we can get the £2500 until June .. note.. NOT like Jet2 or Easy, BA, Virgin a "reduced topped up package" speaks volumes. What about the remaining "Bond" .. No idea, No Chance, No Hope. If NAS want to operate in the "grey areas" that's fine, but at least have a safety net for the staff when it goes wrong.. Loyalty works both ways. At the end of these times we still need healthy competition in the market and sustainable players, not opportunist chancers. BA has a big enough war chest to take all the capacity and crews if it so chooses, of course you will not get LHS at BA, but sitting at home crying in the beer isn't the answer either. BALPA seem to be just hot air at the time they are most needed..

[Tommy Gavin]

The lack of empathy towards Norwegian stems from the fact companies like them have driven down pay and T&Cs in the aviation sector. They cut financial corners meaning traditional airlines who are unable to do the same, turn to their employees for concessions in order to compete.
I do understand for those desperate to start in the industry that this type of company offered an opportunity, but it was at the expense of others.

Exactly. I was invited once for their 787 and the pay for FO was 60.000 euro gross and TQ was 40.000. Thanks but no thanks. I must say this was in 2014 so it might have changed during the last few years but you know where companies will save money when there is no shortage of pilots.

Nevertheless, I am not happy to see them closing up. However this is almost inevitable. I wish everyone involved a somehow speedy recovery of the aviation business in general. Good luck

[MDS]

Of course, no one can defend atypical employment practices but you have to reason a little and try to understand why they have emerged.

There are probably more airlines in Europe that now operate an atypical employment structure than not. And with the recycling of the aviation industry that's about to take place, I can see every single new player doing the same. Primera, Norwegian and SAIL all have had the same agency based employment structures. SmartLynx, Avion, Small Planet all have been hiring and paying offshore through agencies for years. What pattern do you see here? None of the above are British companies but still want/wanted to do business out of here. Agency based employees are an easy, risk-free option for them. The alternative is for them to open their own HR departments in each of the countries they operate in (impractical). To open a local HR department, you need to launch a local subsidiary company (SmartLynx UK, Smarlynx France, Smartlynx Germany). In the case of some of these airlines they would need to open 20! What difference does it make though? The terms will still be ****.

The real question is this (and it probably applies to most Western European countries)...

When was the last time a UK registered, wholly based and HQd company launched an airline in the UK? You'd have to go back a long time if I'm not mistaken! No business person with a brain would spend their fortune launching an airline out of a Western European country. Big Europe has made it impossible for Western European airlines to compete with The Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians and Polish. Even The Vikings can undercut us thanks to their pent up billions and easy finance on tap. So much demand out of the UK over the last decade yet not a single sizable and meaningful 100% UK based operator has emerged to plug that gap, it's always a foreign player. This is the real issue. Big Europe and the undercutting of our businesses and livelihoods.

It's 100% legal for airlines and corporations to do this. However it's also 100% legal to be denied any kind of taxpayer assistance when in situations like this.

Now the airline becomes a victim of its own poor decisions.

(NB: I'm criticizing the management, not the crews or frontline staff who are the unfortunate victims here)

[SSDK]

I'm starting to get real curious now. What do people think they know regarding the T&C's of Norwegian? I'm thinking hard figures: Pay, Pension, rights, Roster, vacation.... Everything.

I can only speak for myself, but before I left Norwegian (LGW) I had 122500 Pounds Gross in the left seat excluding everything else like pension, food, Uniform, etc. but including some dayoff payments. Is that peanuts? I don't know... I had about 2 years in the left seat and less than 10 years in commercial aviation. I was given the days off I wanted 95% of the time and I was entitled to at least 2 weeks VAC during the peak summer period with another 2 weeks in the winter. We had a lot of nightstops, but I was commuting, so not a problem for me. Training was great and the overall atmosphere was very good in my opinion. Was there room for change? You bet! But from what I could see BALPA had a good relationship with OSM/Norwegian and we always had improvements in the horizon. From what I can remember they mostly fought for better check-in times etc. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone is fighting for these days. I flew around 800Hrs the year I left...
People in the company will know that T&C's in scandiland were on better contracts and as far as Spain goes it is/was very similar to the UK.... But with much lower living costs. And don't get me started about Finland and FCO before It closed!

In many ways I feel sorry that I had to leave, but the commuting life was not for me...

I'm very surprised about the uneducated "pocket economics" comments we have seen not only here, but also on the Virgin thread.

Everyone, including the likes of BA are apparently owned by someone playing dirty and each and every airline has skeletons in their closet. Does that need a change? Yes, off course it does! But that needs to happen via regulations and a change in practices - Not because of an industry-wide nuclear bomb deleting everything in it's path! We see so much BS uttered from people who know very little about the actual operational details and the economic structure of many of the companies mentioned! We have all met the type on the line! The typical "know it all" skipper who will spend hours explaining why the whole industry went south and how it was all much better in the old days! Ok, ok - we get it! ...Man....Get a life! I see some well-hidden Brexit stuff thrown in on a few posts here as well - Nice touch!

I love the typical: "Well, all my sympathy for the crews involved" comments who will then 5 sentences later be followed by "they knew what they got themselves into from the beginning - I have zero sympathy for NAS etc." type remarks. It's like saying "I'm sorry that you are alle idiots". People have a life that needs to add up in the real world. We can't all pick and choose where we want to work, and who to work for! And not everyone wants to be in a Legacy carrier like SAS, BA or any other for that matter!

How about some unity and support for once? This is bound to get a lot worse over time apparently and not even the most higly-skilled pilot with seniority going as far back as the wright brothers can consider themselves safe right now!

I feel like we are going in circles here without learning anything new, so I'm out. Personally, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for all of us! Especially in Europe at the moment. Anyone left here after this will be up against a sector who has already been bailed out across the pond....

[esscee]

Some very good points, well made!

[Whitemonk Returns]

£122500 GROSS to fly (I'm guessing) a 787 out of LGW 800 hrs a year in the LHS? Yes this is peanuts, embarrassing actually, worse than I thought.
​​​
Also those European Airlines you are suddenly so worried about are going to have a much easier time competing with their American counterparts without crap companies like Norweigen undercutting them.

[3Greens]

I'm starting to get real curious now. What do people think they know regarding the T&C's of Norwegian? I'm thinking hard figures: Pay, Pension, rights, Roster, vacation.... Everything.

I can only speak for myself, but before I left Norwegian (LGW) I had 122500 Pounds Gross in the left seat excluding everything else like pension, food, Uniform, etc. but including some dayoff payments. Is that peanuts? I don't know... I had about 2 years in the left seat and less than 10 years in commercial aviation. I was given the days off I wanted 95% of the time and I was entitled to at least 2 weeks VAC during the peak summer period with another 2 weeks in the winter. We had a lot of nightstops, but I was commuting, so not a problem for me. Training was great and the overall atmosphere was very good in my opinion. Was there room for change? You bet! But from what I could see BALPA had a good relationship with OSM/Norwegian and we always had improvements in the horizon. From what I can remember they mostly fought for better check-in times etc. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone is fighting for these days. I flew around 800Hrs the year I left...
People in the company will know that T&C's in scandiland were on better contracts and as far as Spain goes it is/was very similar to the UK.... But with much lower living costs. And don't get me started about Finland and FCO before It closed!

In many ways I feel sorry that I had to leave, but the commuting life was not for me...

I'm very surprised about the uneducated "pocket economics" comments we have seen not only here, but also on the Virgin thread.

Everyone, including the likes of BA are apparently owned by someone playing dirty and each and every airline has skeletons in their closet. Does that need a change? Yes, off course it does! But that needs to happen via regulations and a change in practices - Not because of an industry-wide nuclear bomb deleting everything in it's path! We see so much BS uttered from people who know very little about the actual operational details and the economic structure of many of the companies mentioned! We have all met the type on the line! The typical "know it all" skipper who will spend hours explaining why the whole industry went south and how it was all much better in the old days! Ok, ok - we get it! ...Man....Get a life! I see some well-hidden Brexit stuff thrown in on a few posts here as well - Nice touch!

I love the typical: "Well, all my sympathy for the crews involved" comments who will then 5 sentences later be followed by "they knew what they got themselves into from the beginning - I have zero sympathy for NAS etc." type remarks. It's like saying "I'm sorry that you are alle idiots". People have a life that needs to add up in the real world. We can't all pick and choose where we want to work, and who to work for! And not everyone wants to be in a Legacy carrier like SAS, BA or any other for that matter!

How about some unity and support for once? This is bound to get a lot worse over time apparently and not even the most higly-skilled pilot with seniority going as far back as the wright brothers can consider themselves safe right now!

I feel like we are going in circles here without learning anything new, so I'm out. Personally, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for all of us! Especially in Europe at the moment. Anyone left here after this will be up against a sector who has already been bailed out across the pond....
its peanuts for a Captain, yes. You say it also includes day off payments AND excludes uniform&food? Do you have to pay for your uniform ??
after tax that’s less than 6k a month. Whilst not on the poverty line granted, it’s well below benchmark for a Captain. Particularly so if you
Were on the 787

[SSDK]

its peanuts for a Captain, yes. You say it also includes day off payments AND excludes uniform&food? Do you have to pay for your uniform ??
after tax that’s less than 6k a month. Whilst not on the poverty line granted, it’s well below benchmark for a Captain. Particularly so if you
Were on the 787

For quick info. Flew less than 700hrs/year in previous years, 737, Everything paid for by the company and the salary goes up every year. Bases in scandinavia is well above that. From what I can gather, it's quite ok for a 2nd year Captain in the EU in SH. I know the US is very different...
3Greens - Who do you work for since it's peanuts?

[srjumbo747]

Hi SSDK you make some good, valid points.

I will however say once again that low cost long haul doesn’t work and Norwegian was on its way out before Covid 19.

Again, I feel terrible for the pilots and cabin crew but did they really expect it to continue? Flying LGW to OAK cheaper than a staff travel ticket with another airline just doesn’t make commercial sense.

Furthemore, flying BKK cabin crew to Europe as passengers then have them operate to the US was a flagrant flouting of the rules. Were you also commuting using the amazing (and it seriously is amazing) text ticketing? Just put your flight details into the phone with your staff number and you get your booking reference and no tax to be paid. Great for commuting.

So, because of the amount of tax dodging carried out by Norwegian I’m not surprised if governments say no to their requests for a bail out.

[Luke258]

£122500 GROSS to fly (I'm guessing) a 787 out of LGW 800 hrs a year in the LHS? Yes this is peanuts, embarrassing actually, worse than I thought.
​​​
Also those European Airlines you are suddenly so worried about are going to have a much easier time competing with their American counterparts without crap companies like Norweigen undercutting them.
Stop embarassing yourself by talking about things you have no clue about.
I was quite happy with my salary and contract in general. Flying around 500h per year on 787. Flew less than many other legacy Airlines for not much less money. Got my d/O off request in almost every month exactly as requested and when there was an issue the company tried everything to solve it. Got more days off and vacation days than the American counter parts. And guess what, for some it's not just about the money but the lifestyle as well (that is if you have a life actually). Commuting Was possible, so you could live where you wanted. Obviously there were things that were not perfect but nothing out of the ordinary. So who are you to judge that it's a crap Company?
Please do me a favor and don't Spam the thread again with your half knowledge

[SSDK]

Hi SSDK you make some good, valid points.

I will however say once again that low cost long haul doesn’t work and Norwegian was on its way out before Covid 19.

Again, I feel terrible for the pilots and cabin crew but did they really expect it to continue? Flying LGW to OAK cheaper than a staff travel ticket with another airline just doesn’t make commercial sense.

Furthemore, flying BKK cabin crew to Europe as passengers then have them operate to the US was a flagrant flouting of the rules. Were you also commuting using the amazing (and it seriously is amazing) text ticketing? Just put your flight details into the phone with your staff number and you get your booking reference and no tax to be paid. Great for commuting.

So, because of the amount of tax dodging carried out by Norwegian I’m not surprised if governments say no to their requests for a bail out.

I know very little about the LH part of the company to be honest. I just never found a job where you never handfly or land the damn thing more than a few times a month interesting, so you would have to ask someone else...

Can we get som actual number on how much tax you think Norwegian is dodging? I mean, REAL numbers so that we can actually use your statement as a conversation with facts? Not trying to be "smart". I'm actually asking. Besides, I actually think Norwegian is paying for the pax tax for people commuting via the text. I think most companies would expense that anyway...

As I have said before, I am not trying to justify how Norwegian is doing business. It's funny how the conversation is pivoted towards that over and over again. I'm just trying to make the case that as an employee of Norwegian you will most likely have a very statisfying life with ok pay and lifestyle. I think a company that can provide that is worth preserving. Furthermore, as I have said before, Norwegian is making changes for the good as of lately. Everyone is Unionised, AOC's were coming back to Sweden and they were driving towards scandinavian core values again.

As for myself. I am now working for what people would call a "Legacy carrier". Back as an FO in my home country and with a loooooong seniority list ahead of me for the left seat. It's not bad, but I do miss being in charge and earning the extra money!

[wisecaptain]

Considering the current economic disaster unfolding , I think anyone having a job let alone the figures your talking about would be considered a godsend.
Norwegian and VS Capt+f/o's I suspect would gladly forgo their current salary levels just to be able to continue their much beloved aviation careers.
If these companies are shrunk to half their size and pay cuts ensue to help save them , how many would jump at the chance to be the lucky few ?
If these two were to be saved but with the requirement of new terms and conditions , would that be acceptable?

[BehindBlueEyes]

So, in simple terms - actually so I can understand it - If you work for Norwegian, you’re really employed by OSM? Therefore, NAS can dump you at any time without any responsibility or obligation.

[3Greens]

For quick info. Flew less than 700hrs/year in previous years, 737, Everything paid for by the company and the salary goes up every year. Bases in scandinavia is well above that. From what I can gather, it's quite ok for a 2nd year Captain in the EU in SH. I know the US is very different...
3Greens - Who do you work for since it's peanuts?

BA. I was earning more than that as a 777 FO without any day off payments. That really just isn’t anyway acceptable for a 787 Captain. It’s embarrassingly poor.

[Luke258]

BA. I was earning more than that as a 777 FO without any day off payments. That really just isn’t anyway acceptable for a 787 Captain. It’s embarrassingly poor.
Just like your ability to read comments properly as it seems.

[srjumbo747]

I know very little about the LH part of the company to be honest. I just never found a job where you never handfly or land the damn thing more than a few times a month interesting, so you would have to ask someone else...

Can we get som actual number on how much tax you think Norwegian is dodging? I mean, REAL numbers so that we can actually use your statement as a conversation with facts? Not trying to be "smart". I'm actually asking. Besides, I actually think Norwegian is paying for the pax tax for people commuting via the text. I think most companies would expense that anyway...

As I have said before, I am not trying to justify how Norwegian is doing business. It's funny how the conversation is pivoted towards that over and over again. I'm just trying to make the case that as an employee of Norwegian you will most likely have a very statisfying life with ok pay and lifestyle. I think a company that can provide that is worth preserving. Furthermore, as I have said before, Norwegian is making changes for the good as of lately. Everyone is Unionised, AOC's were coming back to Sweden and they were driving towards scandinavian core values again.

As for myself. I am now working for what people would call a "Legacy carrier". Back as an FO in my home country and with a loooooong seniority list ahead of me for the left seat. It's not bad, but I do miss being in charge and earning the extra money!
I have no idea how much tax they were dodging but you have confirmed that you paid no tax when you commuted. Is that correct?
Other airline’s commuters still have to pay the tax so in my view that’s a tax dodge.

[SSDK]

Read my comment again Luke 258...

Also. I have 3 good friends flying 777 in BA on their 2nd and 3rd year. We always talk salary (A pilots favorite topic as always) and I never heard them even come close to more than 100 grand per year. I guess you are special or maybe a FO for 10+ years? Older contract? Dunno.... If true- then hey! I'm happy for you!

[Luke258]

Read my comment again Luke 258...

Also. I have 3 good friends flying 777 in BA on their 2nd and 3rd year. We always talk salary (A pilots favorite topic as always) and I never heard them even come close to more than 100 grand per year. I guess you are special or maybe a FO for 10+ years? Older contract? Dunno.... If true- then hey! I'm happy for you!
Well I guess you should check again who your reply should adress SSDK.

[3Greens]

Ah yes, the perils of an iPhone in bright light. My apologies.
For full disclusire, BA 777 FO. 17 years service and there’s no way that should be the same as a 787 Captain of 2/3 years.
I really hope there is some way to save your company as I don’t wish to see anyone out of work at all, but to justify those awful salaries for Captains at Norwegian is well, embarsssing.

[SSDK]

I did use a text. But it was my understanding that this was a company perk - paid for by Norwegian. We were never counted as "additional crew" or "active" as RYR does it. IF this was/or is confirmed as tax-dodging I think we are talking numbers so low that it's not worth your time anyway. Show me the tax dodgning in pure numbers! Otherwise it's "he said, she said" imo. Again - cockpit gossip of the worst kind. Some times I think each and every pilot has a 13 year old "gossip-girl" hidden inside just waiting to come out.

[SSDK]

Ha ha, sorry luke. Karma... :}

[SSDK]

How much does a SH 2dn year Captain make in BA "3Greens"? You do know that we are talking SH , right? You keep going on about LH....

[srjumbo747]

I did use a text. But it was my understanding that this was a company perk - paid for by Norwegian. We were never counted as "additional crew" or "active" as RYR does it. IF this was/or is confirmed as tax-dodging I think we are talking numbers so low that it's not worth your time anyway. Show me the tax dodgning in pure numbers! Otherwise it's "he said, she said" imo. Again - cockpit gossip of the worst kind. Some times I think each and every pilot has a 13 year old "gossip-girl" hidden inside just waiting to come out.
To be honest I don’t know if Norweigen paid tax on these tickets but if I were a gambler I’d put my money onto the side of them not paying tax. Isn’t that why they wanted you to position in uniform?

Same goes for the BKK crew who they’d ship in, in economy, and have them fly on the Europe-USA routes.

Just my humble opinion and again, I’ve got friends in Norwegian, they knew the score and I obviously have sympathy for them. It could be any of us tomorrow.

[SSDK]

I have never positioned in uniform on all of my time in Norwegian.. Nor was I required to!

No, you hit the nail on the head. "You bet" and you "guess". I find it interesting that we all just accept this as being the truth here on the forum. It delutes the worth of it, and it is quite frankly surprising that we as pilots are willing to go along with the slightest rumor or "good story" that easily.

Again. Let's hope we can all get through this... It affects us all.

[truckflyer]

It's all good to have great T & C's, but if you have no job security, and the company can cut you off without any responsibility or liability just to get rid of debts and creditors, the contracts might seem great, but have very little legal value regarding workers rights etc.

[lowflight]

It's all good to have great T & C's, but if you have no job security, and the company can cut you off without any responsibility or liability just to get rid of debts and creditors, the contracts might seem great, but have very little legal value regarding workers rights etc.
Pretty interesting statements coming from a guy who used to work for Wizz..

[Meester proach]

BA. I was earning more than that as a 777 FO without any day off payments. That really just isn’t anyway acceptable for a 787 Captain. It’s embarrassingly poor.


TBH, if you are earning that as an FO you are overpaid.

the job of LH capt day in day out, is about £120kworth I think - that’s my opinion though. There are some obscene payments for US legacy captains 300k dollars plus - that’s just ridiculous for what is generally a fairly straightforward routine job - I mean to be paid more than a surgeon / prime minister etc...

Theres always been those who play the long game for ( eventually) the big money - BA FOs who can wait a decade and a half for a sniff of a command. And then the rest - I prefer an earlier command as I find that part of the job the most interesting now and it’s the puzzle I like to try and solve everyday

But we digress - I’m not getting into contracts, pay, who’s got the biggest watch and the smallest....it’s irrelevant , what I’m interested in is NAS news and whether they make it or not . If you have a negative view , hold it to yourself for now , as they fight for survival - otherwise you’ll be a bit like the bully in the playground kicking the kid that’s already on the floor

[truckflyer]

Pretty interesting statements coming from a guy who used to work for Wizz..

You missing the point, aren't you?

It's not about the crews, it's about the companies, and I would not pull any punches saying what I think about Wizz either. So what exactly is your point?

[truckflyer]

TBH, if you are earning that as an FO you are overpaid.

the job of LH capt day in day out, is about £120kworth I think - that’s my opinion though. There are some obscene payments for US legacy captains 300k dollars plus - that’s just ridiculous for what is generally a fairly straightforward routine job - I mean to be paid more than a surgeon / prime minister etc...

Theres always been those who play the long game for ( eventually) the big money - BA FOs who can wait a decade and a half for a sniff of a command. And then the rest - I prefer an earlier command as I find that part of the job the most interesting now and it’s the puzzle I like to try and solve everyday

But we digress - I’m not getting into contracts, pay, who’s got the biggest watch and the smallest....it’s irrelevant , what I’m interested in is NAS news and whether they make it or not . If you have a negative view , hold it to yourself for now , as they fight for survival - otherwise you’ll be a bit like the bully in the playground kicking the kid that’s already on the floor

I guess you are one of those guys who rather want to lower you expectations to be able to fly?

Please, just let it continue the downward spiral, it does not matter, you probably think like some other big bosses, that pilots are overpaid.
It's not only in the USA where they get paid $300.000, much of Asia Captains also on these kind of salaries, $250.000 - $300.000, while in the EU, well we all know, how it is here.

120.000 Euro for a Captain is pretty poor, compared to USA and Asia. I can get more in Asia flying Cargo as an FO.

[M.Mouse]

Apologies for the thread drift but to correct a piece of mis-information:

BA FOs who can wait a decade and a half for a sniff of a command.

That used to be the case, in fact in the early to mid 90s I met FOs who had waited 20 years for command. I joined late 89 and got a SH command after 10 years and three years later a LH command. Now, or until this virus arrived, commands on some fleets can be had after just a few years.

[Meester proach]

Apologies for the thread drift but to correct a piece of mis-information:



That used to be the case, in fact in the early to mid 90s I met FOs who had waited 20 years for command. I joined late 89 and got a SH command after 10 years and three years later a LH command. Now, or until this virus arrived, commands on some fleets can be had after just a few years.
Er , well , that’s 2 years short of my decade and a half.....to LH command.

I understand SH commands on airbus aren’t popular choices for experienced LH FOs as it’s a pretty harsh roster

[Meester proach]

I guess you are one of those guys who rather want to lower you expectations to be able to fly?

Please, just let it continue the downward spiral, it does not matter, you probably think like some other big bosses, that pilots are overpaid.
It's not only in the USA where they get paid $300.000, much of Asia Captains also on these kind of salaries, $250.000 - $300.000, while in the EU, well we all know, how it is here.

120.000 Euro for a Captain is pretty poor, compared to USA and Asia. I can get more in Asia flying Cargo as an FO.

Not at all, I want to reach a certain level of renumeration for my services . That is limited by the role I play and my value to the employer. What do you think you should be paid ? A million dollars ?it’s just not up there......

for instance the guy who thought $110 dollars to be a 747 cruise pilot and thought that was ok, I don’t think that’s ok....

A lot of 737 captains joined NAS as 787 FOs or “ relief captains “ and it worked out for most of them with quick upgrades -
but it’s a risky move .

[733driver]

Not at all, I want to reach a certain level of renumeration for my services . That is limited by the role I play and my value to the employer. What do you think you should be paid ? A million dollars ?it’s just not up there......

for instance the guy who thought $110 dollars to be a 747 cruise pilot and thought that was ok, I don’t think that’s ok....

A lot of 737 captains joined NAS as 787 FOs or “ relief captains “ and it worked out for most of them with quick upgrades -
but it’s a risky move .

Well, In the US, at least prior to this virus crisis, you had many highly profitable airlines (Delta 4+ billion net profit, Southwest 2.5 billion, Lufthansa 2.0 billion etc) who paid their pilots extremely well (US carriers) or at least very good by EU standards (LH). So it's possible. Norwegian pay peanuts and go bust regardless. Go figure.

[SSDK]

I guess you are one of those guys who rather want to lower you expectations to be able to fly?

Please, just let it continue the downward spiral, it does not matter, you probably think like some other big bosses, that pilots are overpaid.
It's not only in the USA where they get paid $300.000, much of Asia Captains also on these kind of salaries, $250.000 - $300.000, while in the EU, well we all know, how it is here.

120.000 Euro for a Captain is pretty poor, compared to USA and Asia. I can get more in Asia flying Cargo as an FO.

120.000 Euros? Were did that number come from? Are we still talking about NAS? To clarify - I was talking pounds.... SHORT HAUL!

And 17 year as an FO. Wow That sure is a long time without any real progression! But if command times are getting lower it sounds like it's moving in the right direction. I'm still looking for any info on a BA SH skipper salary out of Gatwick on his or hers second year in the left seat.

Also, remember that the salary I earned as stated above was from 2 years ago now. I see that the salary has gone up since apparently.

I don't understand your comment on the Asian or American wages. I think most of us think it's great that our collegues across the pond have been able to get it that high. The european market is just different, being full of different countries and all............

We can all (try) and go to asia for the big money, but in most peoples cases it's a tradeoff of time. As I have said before. A job is more than the sum of the money you make. Fixed roster, being at home or just having a great day out daily can all be very important factors.

[SSDK]

733driver: You are oversimplifying things quite a bit imo. The big airlines in the US has been the result of many, many bankruptcies and a reformed sector that used to pay very small wages up until very late in a pilots carreer. It's not easy being a new player in the market when the competetion paid 1/10000 of the price for a slot etc. 40-50 or 60+ years ago and so on. How would you ever get in on the market? Personally I would have done things differently regarding longhaul, but that's with 20/20 hindsight and no real interest of flying LH. But saying "Norwegian pay peanuts and go bust regardless. Go figure" is such a loaded blank statement without a fraction of a "calorie" in it that we really can't use it for anything. Should they have never tried? Could a 787 with endless problems and the 737-max have something to do with it as well? etc. etc etc. We get it. Norwegian bad - BA and so on, good. No matter the facts. Let's just go along with rumors and run with it since it fits with our narrative.

[733driver]

733driver: You are oversimplifying things quite a bit imo. The big airlines in the US has been the result of many, many bankruptcies and a reformed sector that used to pay very small wages up until very late in a pilots carreer. It's not easy being a new player in the market when the competetion paid 1/10000 of the price for a slot etc. 40-50 or 60+ years ago and so on. How would you ever get in on the market? Personally I would have done things differently regarding longhaul, but that's with 20/20 hindsight and no real interest of flying LH. But saying "Norwegian pay peanuts and go bust regardless. Go figure" is such a loaded blank statement without a fraction of a "calorie" in it that we really can't use it for anything. Should they have never tried? Could a 787 with endless problems and the 737-max have something to do with it as well? etc. etc etc. We get it. Norwegian bad - BA and so on, good. No matter the facts. Let's just go along with rumors and run with it since it fits with our narrative.

I was just countering the poster "Meester preach" who called others overpaid. You are correct that the situation in the US cannot be compared to Europe but I am correct that it's possible to be profitable and pay very good salaries to pilots. I admit the pay peanuts remark was perhaps not entirely appropriate, though.

I never said or implied Norwegian should have never tried. I just don't like it when fellow pilots argue that lower wages are necessary for a successful aviation business. Simply not true. I'm also no BA fan-boy. In fact I would not want to work there either. Too much work.

[Busdriver01]

I'm still looking for any info on a BA SH skipper salary out of Gatwick on his or hers second year in the left seat.




An impossible question to answer - AIUI you join on pay point 1, and each year progress up the scale, until pay point 34. The amount it increases depends if you are SH or LH. When you get a command, which recently was as quick as year 1 or 2 years in the company but historically was much later (10 years?), you side step onto the same pay point Captain scale, which is 25% higher. Therefore, a captain in his or her second year in the left seat could be earning pay point 3, or pay point 34. A quick browse on PPJN suggests this is a basic salary of between around £80k for SH pp3 to around £190k for LH pp34 not including flight allowances. The former sounds low for a legacy captain but then the system wasn't designed for such a junior command.

[SSDK]

An impossible question to answer - AIUI you join on pay point 1, and each year progress up the scale, until pay point 34. The amount it increases depends if you are SH or LH. When you get a command, which recently was as quick as year 1 or 2 years in the company but historically was much later (10 years?), you side step onto the same pay point Captain scale, which is 25% higher. Therefore, a captain in his or her second year in the left seat could be earning pay point 3, or pay point 34. A quick browse on PPJN suggests this is a basic salary of between around £80k for SH pp3 to around £190k for LH pp34 not including flight allowances. The former sounds low for a legacy captain but then the system wasn't designed for such a junior command.

Interesting. Thanks for info.

[Brenoch]

This thread is getting more and more surreal by the minute. An airline driven into $7 billion in dept by undercutting competition, defended by its former employees arguing they earned more as a captain than a BA F/O.

I’ll have to take a 5 minute break plastering my cracked ribs from laughing and crying

[truckflyer]

Not at all, I want to reach a certain level of renumeration for my services . That is limited by the role I play and my value to the employer. What do you think you should be paid ? A million dollars ?it’s just not up there......

for instance the guy who thought $110 dollars to be a 747 cruise pilot and thought that was ok, I don’t think that’s ok....

A lot of 737 captains joined NAS as 787 FOs or “ relief captains “ and it worked out for most of them with quick upgrades -
but it’s a risky move .

I believe the current LHS salaries in UK and much of Europe are to low (before Covid 19) Now after, for some time you have to be happy you just have a job. I think most of us can understand this kind of situations.

The step up from SFO to Captain is a joke with regards to pay, taking into account the higher tax bracket you end up in.
Using a company like Wizz as one of the worst, base pay is 45.000 Euros for a Captain, the remainder is made up by sector pay, which from the guys I know gives them pretty good pay, when they of course fly, which is a dangerous system to have.

Considering that we need to take into account such periods where companies will suddenly tell us, they are not going to pay us for 2 - 3 - 4 months, we should be getting significant higher salaries in the good times, so we are able to build up extra funds for crisis like this.

Considering increase of cost of living the last decade, we are getting less and less for our money.
In the past I ran my own company, and worked much less and made much more money than someone currently in the LHS in Europe working like a dog, and having £5500 a month.

Considering how business was before Covid 19, we were at least 20 - 30 % below the level of pay we should be on. Such a pay increase can be related to companies profits.

I agree there are other things more important than money, but I believe the remuneration have regressed massively the last decade.

[procede]

That is where the 'cost' in 'low cost' really refers to: Making people work harder for less money.

[aileron]

Are Norwegian pilots getting paid in April?

[uncle-traveling-matt]

How much does a SH 2dn year Captain make in BA "3Greens"? You do know that we are talking SH , right? You keep going on about LH....

I can answer. A lot less than I earned in my last year as an FO with Norwegian. BA did put up a strike though, lasting less than 24 hrs. The brits have gone weak lately, maybe time to bring back the great viking army, and invade once more 😉

[Meester proach]

This thread is getting more and more surreal by the minute. An airline driven into $7 billion in dept by undercutting competition, defended by its former employees arguing they earned more as a captain than a BA F/O.

I’ll have to take a 5 minute break plastering my cracked ribs from laughing and crying

Not really - think massive aircraft orders , and then kicked in the face by RR and Boeing.

The reason people defend it, is simply it’s actually a nice place to work.

Good luck with A&E at present , try not to get coughed on

[AKSAMAKSAM]

Are Norwegian pilots getting paid in April?

In the UK.. not according to OSM, although BALPA hope that UK Gov will accept them too JRS.. In Spain unions starting process against NAS as they believe pilots still employed during the ERTE process, bit of a hollow gesture as the subsidiary that "employed" the pilots is bankrupt. Board meeting 4th May will simply tell investors that they have no funds and any monies will be directed towards homeland operations preservations. Whatever the complexities of the employment model was/is it makes no difference if the company is broke. Irish lease companies looking to recover aircraft. If the UK was "open for business" those with training credits could at least punt around the sim companies.. The real issue with this job is when you can't do it anymore, even in retirement and its a lesson to be learnt that there has to be a life outside aviation. For 25 years it paid my bills, now is the time to enjoy family times, look around you.. the most valuable thing maybe in the room with you

[Luke258]

That is where the 'cost' in 'low cost' really refers to: Making people work harder for less money.
No idea what you are talking about. I worked less than my colleagues at the legacies whilst earning a great salary. In summer months 3-4 Trips with the occasional 5th Trip. With vacation days and 10 days off per month it was sometimes 1-2 Trips. Spring Winter Fall was 1-3 Trips per month. Around 500h per year maximum. I did not consider this hard work tbh. But you must have more Information about this.

[kungfu panda]

Please don't ask me to re-read the whole thread. I just want to know the answer to a simple question. Will Norwegian Long haul from Gatwick still operate after Coronavirus?

[calypso]

A simple question that unfortunately hasn't got a simple answer. I would not bet on it though

[Ramsey]

Close the LGW SH base and use the slots for LH. Norwegian could then return as a SH only operater in Norway. And as a LH only operater in LGW...

[BehindBlueEyes]

Won’t the Scandis still want to fly to Spain? The flights were always full and they usually cleared out all the onboard catering too!

[Kirks gusset]

Please don't ask me to re-read the whole thread. I just want to know the answer to a simple question. Will Norwegian Long haul from Gatwick still operate after Coronavirus?
Would be very difficult with no crew (OSM agreement terminated) and no A/C, There was a small chance as investors felt they had no option other than to convert debts to shares, but.. the latest shenanigans have shown the aviation community how the NAS Board view other elements outside of Norway as "disposable" ..unless there is a huge cash injection it would be near impossible with their credit rating. The UK CAA would require assurance of their financial viability as per the terms of the AOC and so would ATOL, Stranger things have happened and one lives in hope as a healthy competition is always good,

[calypso]

ATOL is only for package holidays and charter flights. Scheduled flights are not covered by ATOL.

[truckflyer]

Would be very difficult with no crew (OSM agreement terminated) and no A/C, There was a small chance as investors felt they had no option other than to convert debts to shares, but.. the latest shenanigans have shown the aviation community how the NAS Board view other elements outside of Norway as "disposable" ..unless there is a huge cash injection it would be near impossible with their credit rating. The UK CAA would require assurance of their financial viability as per the terms of the AOC and so would ATOL, Stranger things have happened and one lives in hope as a healthy competition is always good,

My understanding is that they have all the aircraft, that part of the business has not gone bankrupt. They just got rid of 2/3's of their crews for now. And it would not surprise me if they have some "come-back" if they should need those crews back again later.

[hec7or]

The UK CAA would require assurance of their financial viability as per the terms of the AOC and so would ATOL
From the CAA Website

The law says your holiday must be protected if it is a package holiday. ATOL (which stands for Air Travel Organiser’s Licence) is a UK financial protection scheme and it protects most air package holidays sold by travel businesses that are based in the UK.
ATOL is run by the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).

[Speedbrakes Up]

So the crew in LGW are gone, but the planes still exist....
so how long will the crews have to wait to be called back for their jobs? A year, 6 months, 2 years?
Or are the sale and collapse of the additional AOCs outside Norway to come?

[advent]

You make a very valid point..

If I may be just a little indulgent.. I know many here have their opinions of the aviation industry right now.

Some few, probably more than 25 years ago pilots were regarded as a professional person in society. These past 15 or so years has seen a massive influx of pilots that have come to the airlines through many and various systems of training. Each one has arrived with the same (or very similar through the European (EASA) approved training philosophy). Absolutely not their fault for believing they all have the same credentials.. But of course this system has become flawed and at times a little, shall we say (loose).

Airlines, yep the so called LCC, has without doubt availed themselves to (employ) such aircrew on a different model of employment that had before 2001 never been seen. Promises of fortune and command progression overtook even the slightest imagination of future employment or more importantly, retirement. !

NOTE.. To read again .. ‘Loss of licence insurance’.. The mention of pension, loss of licence or medical cover was never even whispered into the ear of a budding new recruit. How little they knew of any calamity that could ever befall them.The invincible pilot!! always brave and understanding to the point of no return. But hey, that’s only a small part of the problem that has been created.

From the flight schools that sell the model of earning fabulous wealth along with expectations of rising to command (seriously it takes far more than flying a good visual), to the airlines that promise careers whilst opening up new routes for all those amazing passengers, who at anytime may decide to stop flying. Wow do they ever make that decision !!

Really have to feel for the so called ‘Norwegian pilots’ at this time.. Not sure how you ever came to agree to work for a third party company (OSM), obviously knowing your conditions of pay, tax and pension were being decided completely outside of your own choosing. What the F**k were you thinking!!. But have faith.. You are not the only ones to befall this fate..

Ryanair pilots, along with Smartwings, LOT, Enter Air and so many others are exactly in the same soup..

So what to do about this ‘atypical employment model’ ?

It’s all up to you.. Take your chance and hey, welcome to your chosen path of employment.. Check out the ECA.. This may be your very last chance to gain correct employment in the most amazing career you have chosen!

Now go and read the NOTE again . If you are recently unemployed you will certainly be looking at this.. For only 1 months earnings you could have an insurance policy that would keep you as safe as the ducks 🦆 on the pond for the next 6 months.. But hey, no one ever listens to advice eh!

[SSDK]

I totally see what you are saying ad, and to some extent I agree. But as always, there are more than one side to a coin. As for Norwegian I can only say I flew with VERY few pilots who had not been somewhere else before... Either turboprop, instructing or, for the vast majority, Ryanair. I guess it depends on the base, but as for LGW the average age or experience in the flightdeck was more than the industry standard. We are talking 10-20+ years in the bizz. Upgrades were for those who had 4000 hours or more and I saw very very few actually get throught the process of upgrading compared to how many who tried. I guess you have to have a certain standard when you are dealing with extreme conditions in scandinavia all the time.

With regards to how this "spiral" all began, you have to remember that we have had a whole generation of pilots finishing either during the crisis of 2008 or in the years thereafter. As you know, the amount of available jobs went to virtually zero for many many years. And with no experience, there was only one show in town - Ryanair. With that said, I know plenty of people who are still happy in Ryanair (From what I understand it depends very much on the base). At the time you could have been a reincarnation of Charles Lindberg and still be unable to land a job. People had/and still have bills to pay and after 6 monhts without a job you have to do something! Not everybody has rich parents or a friendly bank to provide a safetynet.

This time around you will see exactly the same! People need food on the table and from the looks of it, there will be even less choice on the market. So when you say people have to choose carefully next time they look for another job, I see what you are saying, but it's a comment formed from a person with more choice and less risk than the majority. We also have to remember that not all pilots in Europe live (or want to live) in the UK and as such have less of a desire to try their luck with it's airlines.

The situation becomes more and more complex each and every single day at the moment and if we continue like this we will likely see pilots in the legacy airlines compromise on decades of union work in order to pay the bills. We all have a breaking point - Even those who hide behind their respectable airlines cash-reserves pointing fingers. I personally hope we see more approvals of state loans to airlines big and small. Sometimes that little bit of extra fuel (time) makes a huge difference when the storms are building up in order to make a "safe landing"....

[dirk85]

You mention the low pass rate at the command course like it’s a sign of good standard.
Let me tell you, it is not.
Either the quality of the applicant is so bad that you can’t possibly put him or her on the left seat or the training department is failing at its job of developing the FOs.

Either way, not something to be proud of.

[SSDK]

You are actually partially right I think. Reading it again, I can see how it sounds. My point was merely that they did not just take people with "enough hours" throwing them into the left seat because of the commercial pressure. It took time. That said, there should have been more coaching for people who had the right attitude and skills and i do agree that a high fail-rate is not (always) a good sign... Thank you for pointing that out.

[truckflyer]

"Advent"
Some of the crews was not given a choice when it initially happen. It was take it or goodbye.

From 2015, when this happen:
"Half of Norwegian's pilots want to quit" and "75% of the 800 pilots surveyed would not recommend Norwegian as an employer"

https://e24.no/karriere-og-ledelse/i/vQl8j4/halvparten-av-norwegian-pilotene-oensker-aa-slutte

[Kirks gusset]

https://www.norwegian.com/en/booking/package-deals/ guess they have a different view on a package then! The CAA WILL require financial viability as this was a hurdle they experienced in the past, fingers crossed they get some investment. Regarding the aircraft, NAS are behind on lease payments and need to catch up on these and probably pay a few months in advance to get in the air again. This being the case, the cash required is far beyond the dribble proposed. If OSM are accepted to the job furlough scheme it will at least give some income to the crews, but three months hence, they will all need recurrent training, the leases will be 5 months in arrears and the rest is predicable, sadly. BA, Easy, Ryan, Virgin can stand a chance of getting through this with their cash reserves, NAS has no cash.

[truckflyer]

Every company will need massive amount of recurrent training. Can you imagine crews being 3-4 months out of currency, I struggle to see how they will find enough Sims and trainers to be able to do this very quick.
So as for NAS regarding the crews, that won't be worse than any others, most likely it is easier to get government help now they got rid of all the non Core crews, than again who knows.

[rotorcloud]

https://www.lifeinnorway.net/emergency-norway-law-could-save-norwegian-air/

[BehindBlueEyes]

And they’ve done it:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSL5N2CC1YE

[737lpa]

Every company will need massive amount of recurrent training. Can you imagine crews being 3-4 months out of currency, I struggle to see how they will find enough Sims and trainers to be able to do this very quick.
So as for NAS regarding the crews, that won't be worse than any others, most likely it is easier to get government help now they got rid of all the non Core crews, than again who knows.
They haven't really got rid of the non-core crews yet. They've made the announcement, but actually have not physically done it. And that's because it's illegal and can't be done.

Today RYR received a huge sentence in Spain for the same reason. You can close bases and fire people, but you can't declare bankruptcy wherever you wish and keep flying in Norway like nothing happened because they will simply eat them in court.

Also, remember that firing staff gets rid of salary expenses, but the massive debt belongs to norwegian, no its subsidiaries. And no creditor or government is going to bail them out to keep a small operation in Norway simply because it's not worth it. It's actually much cheaper to let it go bust and start from zero without the liabilities.

All rumour aside, we will find out soon what the final outcome is on May 4th.

[Tommy Gavin]

At least the change of the law is a step in the right direction of Norwegian's survival. I am no fan of the company and still remain pessimistic but I sincerely hope for everyone involved they pull through. A huge amount of unemployed pilots is only good for managers when negotiating a new CWA.

[Speedbrakes Up]

Technically they have not fired any staff in Spain or the UK. They have told OSM they no longer require their crew services. Therefore the pilots and cabin crew are still employed but via OSM.
So if any action was to take place against a company, it would be with the pilot and cabin crews employer, which is OSM UK or OSM Spain, not Norwegian.
I know OSM UK are doing everything they can for their employees.
As for Sweden and Denmark, I have no idea on employment law over there so cannot comment.
wish all the crews all the best and hope the 4th of May brings good news.

[737Driv3r]

Actually we're not "OSM Spain" , we're NAR ES which is 51% owned by NAS and 49% by OSM so we're employed by Norwegian anyways not osm..they only manage the HR part etc
We're not fired. We're on ERTE for the moment like everyone else on all other companies. After the 4th we'll see...
Still find it interesting how most guys here commenting don't even work here...but they know it all 😬 Sofa Warriors I guess..

[Northern Monkey]

Maybe one of the few benefits of the current crisis is that atypical models of employment will be less socially acceptable in the future. Hey, we can hope.

[Kirks gusset]

So if any action was to take place against a company, it would be with the pilot and cabin crews employer, which is OSM UK or OSM Spain, not Norwegian. The Spanish Unions are arguing that the crews "effectively worked for Norwegian" and therefore were protected by the ERTE laws, either way, there maybe a glimmer of hope

“(The new law) is a more efficient tool to ... sort out what parts of a business can be strong enough to survive,” Justice Minster Monica Maeland told parliament.

In other words, dump the LH operation, cull the non-profit making SH routes, retrench and build a solid base. As the aviation world will scrabble for revenues you will probably find a "gentleman agreement" in place on routes with heavy competition to give everyone a chance to drink from the pool. Code-share-R-US

[3Greens]

Gentlemen’s agreement? Are you having a laugh...?

[vikingivesterled]

One of Norwegians problem at the moment is that all the big and/or institutional investors have exited the share and they are left with all shareholders with just small stakes each. Normally that would leave the company management in control but there is building up a momentum among the shareholders organizing against being watered out to nothing and the company depends on a shareholder yes vote if the debt is to be converted to shares, in addition to the debt holders agreement.
The company is becoming uncontrollable. If a shareholder revolt is coming expect board changes to follow since the current board is sitting based on shareholders no longer invested in the company.

Some are also flouting that the state would take over the assets if the company did go bust, to keep up the competition in the Norway/Scandinavia market. Doubtfull. Its a long time since a european country started up an airline, which is what it in reality would be seen as.

[737 Jockey]

If small investors don’t (understandably) want their investment diluted, and vote against the debt to equity plan, they will maintain an undiluted share holding worth approximately zip of Norwegian fails. Personally, it feels like momentum is gathering towards acceptance of the plan, but we’ll just have to wait and see.

[lear999wa]

That is assuming that no funds would be raised during the liquidation.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Small inverstors have been buying a lot of shares lately. I doesn’t make sense. They know if this deal goes through the value will be next to nothing. If the company goes bust, the value will be nothing.
So now they demand the government to save them by injecting 10 billion NOK into the company.
It is a mess, that is sure.

[RoyHudd]

I fail to understand why Norwegian should continue to trade. It has been a busted flush for years, when profits were there to be made. Their business plans never worked in the relatively good times. And now......

My sympathies to Norwegian employees and most of the management. It is a rotten deal for you. Better luck next time.

[Paul737]

Interesting article:

https://e24.no/naeringsliv/i/g7nVWJ/tviler-paa-at-hastelov-vil-hjelpe-norwegian-ikke-veldig-tilpasset-vaar-situasjon

Specially the part where Karin S. Thorburn, professor at the Norwegian School of Economics (NHH) doubts that the new scheme could be of particular help to Norwegian. Among other things, she has bankruptcies and restructurings as her areas of expertise.

- Norwegian can to some extent get help with liquidity, but the problem is that in order to convert debt into equity, you need unanimity. Everyone has to agree, and they may as well be unanimous outside the reconstruction process.

She points to a possible problem.

- In addition, we have the problem of Norwegian having subsidiaries in Ireland and other countries. And they will not be subject to such a process. Only the Norwegian part will.

[yellowbobbyjet]

This thread does not have the feel of a chat in the bar over a plate of chicken wings, while complaining of the rotten American beer. As professional pilots we will have done a CRM course, and should understand the concepts of ‘motivated reasoning’ and ‘confirmation bias’. I get a strong impression that many of the posts being made here are not what they seem.
In the current world situation I would expect that competing airlines would be monitoring this thread and would probably throw the odd grenade into the mix in the hope of destabilising the situation, irrespective of the veracity of their assertions. I know this is not what PPRUNE was intended for, so whoever is moderating this thread, or the Virgin or Loganair threads, I urge you to remove these kinds of posts which could ultimately influence the livelihoods of a great many people.

[srjumbo747]

Huh. CRM? Normally it’s the people who teach it who are the worst offenders !
Sorry for the thread drift. X