Stig goes drone fishing

[canterbury crusader]

Gold! Casa not even sure what laws they’ve broken but are sure they’ll come up with something

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-29/footage-of-man-fishing-from-drone-being-investigated-by-casa/11460604?pfmredir=sm

[machtuk]

One has to wonder what space is taken up inside their heads, can't be brains!

[JustinHeywood]

I’m sure the bloke doesn’t need Gibson (CASA) to tell him that there’s a risk involved in doing that.
I’m sure taxpayers don’t want to pay a small team of Canberra bureaucrats to ‘investigate and gather evidence’ in order to make some token charge against him.
CASA spokesmen could have said “stop being an idiot mate, you’ll kill yourself”, but no, they have to do the full Sir Humphrey.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

...one has to wonder how Uber thinks their idea is any better

[ShyTorque]

Let's just call it crocodile baiting....

[geeup]

Where can I have a go??

[KRviator]

Begs the question what CAsA would do to the likes of Lawnchair Larry or Danny Deckchair these days....

[Melbjorn]

Key points:



CASA says while it's a first for Australia, it's not a really sensible thing to do
Not sure who wanted to have CASA's opinion on this in the first place, but thanks buddy, duly noted.
An aviation expert says it was a risky move due to a lack of quality control over homemade drones
It does take an aviation expert to conclude that this was indeed a risky way to fish. What a genius in fact.
The drone's designer has declined to comment
The only sensible bloke in the lot. The video says it all.
CASA spokesman Peter Gibson said there were serious safety risks involved with what appeared in the footage.
True thing. A fish died as a result of the flight.
Mr Gibson said severe breaches of aviation regulations could result in penalties of more than $10,000 in fines or CASA could pursue court action.
The occupant wasn't wearing a life jacket. Beginner's mistake, he should have known better. And drones don't glide too well.
No worries mate, I think we'll just start another Go Fund Me page (see the other active thread on this forum) and we'll have you covered in less than 2 days
It'll take some time for us to gather the information, analyse all that, determine what the appropriate course of action is
By all means do invite the ATSB.
I think you're rather embarrassed of your endorsement of some Uber Air Taxi for 2023 and see a few kids with a couple of beers just teach you a lesson.
Ask them for help instead of punishing them.
Aviassist, a drone training, licensing and auditing company, said the footage was risky due to the lack of quality control over the homemade drone.
No idea how they infer that from that video which shows a perfectly stable flight. Bring in a fisherman and they'll tell you a thing or two regarding the required stability of a fishing rod.
That's why CASA has the rule set that they do — that we don't fly near people or over the top of populated areas — because there isn't that quality regime.
Clearly that drone was flying over massively populated areas.
But Mr Gibson said Australia's drone safety regulations were comprehensive.
Well, he might be the first one to say that.
Mr Anderson said while it appeared that no-one had been hurt during the flight, it was a risky operation.
Another PhD in risk management has spoken.
"For the person on the chair, the risk could be computer errors where the aircraft flies away, could be motor failures where the aircraft ends up in an uncontrollable state,"
While we're at it, let's rub in some good old TEM. You forgot that the rope might snap by the way.
"Best-case scenario is the battery sets die and it plonks straight into the water."
True. Can't happen with piston engines because they usually run on fuel and not on electricity.
But he said as drones became more readily available, people needed a deeper understanding of how to use them safely.
One safe use of drone, for instance, is to remove the batteries and store it in a drawer. A similar strategy has been implemented for aeroplanes over the last 20 years and many are now harmlessly sitting idle in hangars.
"The perception is that they're easy to fly and nothing does go wrong."
Whose perception?Rules for flying drones
No flying more than 120 metres above the ground
I think that everyone will agree that the drone wasn't that high.
Funny that there's no garbage such as "no higher than 120 metres above the lowest point on the ground within a radius of 600 m" or some equally moronic clause
No flying over or near an area affecting public safety or where emergency operations are underway
She'll be fine mate.
No flying within 30 metres of people
That's an interesting one. Does that mean that the rope has to be at least 30 m or else the occupant would be less than this far away from the drone.
I'll ask my legal team at work first thing tomorrow morning.
If your drone weighs more than 100 grams, you must keep it at least 5.5 kilometres away from controlled aerodromes
Tough one. Like 99.99% of Australia.
No flying at night
No, indeed not. Unless you have a current ReNVFR rating for this class of drone and have done 3 takeoffs and 3 landings, at night in the last 90 days nights.
Your drone must stay within your line of sight
It was not only within line of sight but also within line of
No flying over or above people e.g. at festivals, sporting ovals, populated beaches, parks, busy roads and footpaths
The Upper Coliban Reservoir in central Victoria is usually quiet between April and late September
Flying must not create a hazard to another aircraft, person or property
That'll be a deal breaker as soon as they build a second one.
No flying in prohibited or restricted areas
Wait, what if the restricted area is deactivated?
Local council and/or national park laws prohibit drone flights in certain areas
The Upper Coliban Reservoir in central Victoria is renowned for its progressive and liberal views when it comes to drones.

[currawong]

Was our intrepid adventurer pax or crew?

[Look Mum - no hands]

I wish I could catch fish pre-gutted like that one appears to be!

[tail wheel]

Why should CASA worry? Natural selection should sort it out. :}

[Checklist Charlie]

Why should CASA worry? says tail wheel.

They are worried because somebody went flying inspite of CAsA's efforts at killing aviation in Australia.

CC

[LeadSled]

Melbjorn,
Great stuff!!
Can anybody confirm it is real, as opposed to a photoshop job just to stir up the Airstapo.
Tootle pip!!

[aroa]

Melbjorn.. TOPS !! Best cackle Ive had for years. ! Not many of those in aviation where CAsA is concerned.
No doubt about the Gibbo he's an intellectual whizz bang with the words.!

[Checklist Charlie]

No doubt about the Gibbo he's an intellectual whizz bang with the words.!

Reminds me of a saying I heard often in the Army
"Bullsh1t baffles brains"

Sums up PR and spin miesters people to T

CC

[gupta]

"Bullsh1t baffles brains"

aka excreta taurum vincit - or similar, my Latin is very rusty now

[RickNRoll]

https://www.theage.com.au/national/drone-fisherman-could-land-in-hot-water-as-regulator-investigates-20190830-p52md3.html

(https://www.theage.com.au/national/drone-fisherman-could-land-in-hot-water-as-regulator-investigates-20190830-p52md3.html)The drone, which Mr Foreman said weighs over 30 kilograms and comprises 25 batteries and 12 motors and 12 propellers, took about two years to prepare and had successfully lifted 110 kilograms of dead weight before it was tested for the first time with a live human.At 80kg himself, Mr Foreman said he was confident given the previous tests that the drone would take his weight, and he was pleasantly surprised with the level of comfort on the ride."As soon as I was off the ground I just couldn't believe it... how stable it actually was."He said he was wearing a helmet and wetsuit, but chose not to use a lifejacket because it could have hindered his ability to swim away from the drone in the event that something went wrong."I did have comms on so I could talk to whoever the pilot was in case something did go wrong with the drone and I had to jump out of the chair ... try and swim as quick as I could if it was going to land on top of me or anything like that."The question of who was piloting the drone could be key in any future prosecution over potential safety breaches being looked at by CASA.

Two year project according to this. Why wouldn't you see if it passes the beer test?

[Bend alot]

[url=https://www.theage.com.au/national/drone-fisherman-could-land-in-hot-water-as-regulator-investigates-20190830-p52md3.html]https://www.theage.com.au/national/drone-fisherman-could-land-in-hot-water-as-regulator-investigates-20190830-p52md3.html



Two year project according to this. Why wouldn't you see if it passes the beer test?
It most certainly passed the "beer test", after numerous consultations I expect.

[Andy_G]

Thank god we didnt have red tape when Smithy and Hudson Fish were opening up QLD and NT after the first war. We needed to innovate.
I mean, this drone went about as high as a tall tree and carried that fella over a bit of water. Danger to others = nil. C'mon casa.

[Stickshift3000]

“No flying within 30m of people”.

From the CASA website:

You must not fly your drone:

closer than 30 m to people — other than those helping to fly or navigate your drone


Easy out for the passenger... :cool:

[BigPapi]

This man is obviously an innovator and should be punished as such! 50 penalty units!

[currawong]

Given that it is "manned" is it still in fact a "drone"?

Would it now be classified rotorcraft, multi engine etc etc?

[cattletruck]

The tether looks at least 10m long. Doubt a helmet will prevent zero injuries when a 30kg mass hits you at 10m/s.

I couldn't find any info on the duration of the flight, was it up there in the same league as being fired from a cannon?

BTW, it's been done before many times by many others in many different ways and all had the same common problem - the battery duration in flight mode is just not practical.

[Sunfish]

There is apparently an experimental Zenith 650 with electric power normal performance and 1.5 hour endurance with 30min reserve. I’m not sure about the fine performance detail.

My observation is that from time to time we hear of new battery technologies that allegedly at least double performance and efficiency at the same weight. Similarly with electric motors but less about efficiency and more about weight.If any of these come to fruition, and assuming charging issues are resolved, we are going to have practical short range electric flight.

Next comes the question of certification of such systems by the FAA and in CASAs case, finding suppliers of “approved” electricity.

[Squawk7700]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=At3xcj-pTjg

[Obidiah]

You can get it tinkering,
You can even get it hovering,
Matter of fact I've got it now.

These legends should be awarded the Bronwyn Bishop Transport Innovation Award

[machtuk]

You can get it tinkering,
You can even get it hovering,
Matter of fact I've got it now.

These legends should be awarded the Bronwyn Bishop Transport Innovation Award

.....hahahah I like that, she was just corrupt, not stupid like these fools!:-)

[LeadSled]

You can get it tinkering,
You can even get it hovering,
Matter of fact I've got it now.

Folks,
Now we know it is real, I must say it is a pretty impressive device to (according to today's SMH), lift 110 kg with 15 minutes endurance.
What the guys need to do, to make it all "legal", is get it certified and registered in the Experimental Amateur Built Cat., talk to RA Oz, chaps.
Tootle pip!!

[Obidiah]

not stupid like these fools!:-)

Geez that's a bit harsh, I see ingenuity, intelligence, perseverance, wit and mateship.

Whilst the danger level is no doubt somewhat above that of indoor butterfly identification it is probably on par or less than that of some other pretty conventional pursuits such as scuba diving, snow skiing, wake boarding, dirt bike racing, etc..

I know the city folk live for it, but playing with ones telephone just doesn't cut it for many of us country folk.

[aroa]

Love it...have been designing something similar, but to sit in, not to hang from.
Obi.. CAsA and the Gibbo can probably list the "risk assessment" hazards and regs pertaining to the requirements for indoor butterfly id. after all it is an aircraft / a bio-flying machine.
Hard hat, safety goggles, face mask ...and of course the approvals to do so. After you've written your 'exposition' /manual.and outlaidmany 1000s of dollars.

[Ixixly]

Honestly nothing that innovative about what they've done, haven't pushed any boundaries that haven't already been pushed.

For all those saying CASA/ATSB shouldn't waste their time they absolutely should, because for every idiot like this that does it in the middle of no where and doesn't risk other there will be a bunch of others emboldened to try it themselves infront of their mates where they could indeed hurt someone else.

I'm not saying this sort of thing shouldn't be done, but it should be done the right way.

[machtuk]

Honestly nothing that innovative about what they've done, haven't pushed any boundaries that haven't already been pushed.

For all those saying CASA/ATSB shouldn't waste their time they absolutely should, because for every idiot like this that does it in the middle of no where and doesn't risk other there will be a bunch of others emboldened to try it themselves infront of their mates where they could indeed hurt someone else.

I'm not saying this sort of thing shouldn't be done, but it should be done the right way.

Couldn't agree more but hey we are probably in the minority here as being stupid & plastering it all over social media seems to be an Australian thingy!:-)
Personally I hope CASA throw the book at them as they give the drone industry a bad name/tag!!

[Obidiah]

Honestly nothing that innovative about what they've done, haven't pushed any boundaries that haven't already been pushed.

You think??

I dare say that the fact this took them 2 years of trials and testing to get to the stage they did likely indicates they started from scratch with little functioning knowledge of the problems and solutions to those problems that would have to be overcome.

To undertake any complex project that you are unfamiliar takes a degree of personal inventiveness and as Peter Gibson stated in the media... well that's a first for Australia.

Those that belittle or mock these guys probably have never scratch built anything of significance.

Don't get me wrong here I believe CASA are quite right to have a word with these guys and point out a few things, that is there job after all, I hope they leave it that though. If we were to impose the view that only those with the way with all and time to undertake a similar bold project in full compliance with the myriad of red tape and regulations then we would kill the spirit of inventiveness and likely in time end up a country of people that can't build much at all of any significance. If you doubt this then have a look around we've arrived there.

[Squawk7700]

I'm not saying this sort of thing shouldn't be done, but it should be done the right way.

The reality is that to be done the “right way” would be much the same as what these guys have done, except that there would have been copious amounts of redundant paperwork that would add no value to the certification process. It’s clear that they tested by lifting dummy weights first (and then arguably a larger dummy!) which in all honesty is not much different to the current LSA certification process!

[LeadSled]

I'm not saying this sort of thing shouldn't be done, but it should be done the right way.

Wunnerful wunnerful!! Another " Prince of Process" --- the wonderful bureaucratic mind that sees "the process" as the object of the exercise, any potential outcome, if any, is a purely secondary issue, as long as you do things "THE RIGHT WAY".

From Machtuk: "Personally I hope CASA throw the book at them as they give the drone industry a bad name/tag!! ----- won't you be disappointed if they haven't done much "illegal" , and there is no "book" to be thrown.

Some of you blokes should get a life ---- nothing they were doing was endangering anybody but themselves ---- and CASA policy is quite clear, stemming from a S.10 directive in 1997, in the case of sports aviation, amateur built etc, where all participation is voluntary, CASA's interest is " the safety of other airspace users and those under the flightpath of the aircraft.'

Tootle pip!!

[aroa]

Gupta is onto it.

People need to be reminded Mr P Gibson is a very long ter CAsA trough dweller now labelled The Corporate Spokesman.
One would think that in an Agency such as CAsA the ceo and Board would expect truth of fact and integrity and accuracy of output.
Alas Mr Gibson has proved time and again the CAsA mantra ..Any old Bullsh*t and fairy stories will do..
With politicians, bureaurats, PR and advertising ,we now most surely live in the Age of Spin and Bullsh*t.

[bigdoggottaeat]

Cool storey

[Sunfish]

If that is true, it will just drive “droning” underground for want of a better term. Easily affordable aviation solutions like this guys device are unpoliceable. Hence the need by CASA to nip this form of experimentation in the bud.

It it is possible that the advent of such people movers may destroy the current regulatory system. My first hanglider was built from plans in Dads garage long before anyone thought to regulate them. More tinkerers will have a go.

[gerry111]

Follow up to this story,
casa/afp raided his & his family’s houses

For your second PPRuNe post, bigdoggottaeat, perhaps more info?

[bigdoggottaeat]

Drone police

[gerry111]

3 casa representatives flew down from Canberra, they hired a van with the hope of obtaining the dodecacopter, they obtained computers transmitters photos and other evidence.
anything else you want to know?

Yes please. Do you have first hand knowledge of this? Or did you just hear it from someone else? (Fact v Rumour.)

[Sunfish]

Mordor has realised what this cheap technology can do to it and sent out the Nazgul to try to stop it.

[thorn bird]

Innovation?? Unfortunately a dirty word in Australia, the Nanny State of the world.
Thank god the Wright Brothers were American.
Read some media about fees the government charges for orange growers being jacked up to stratospheric
levels.

I ponder why the hell you would need to regulate oranges?

Gawd! imagine what CAsA could do with those regs.

An orange may contain a maximum of ten Pips.
Each Pip must be uniform in size and meet the specifications contained in the orange Manual of standards.
Producing Oranges with greater than ten Pips is an offence of strict liability.
50 penalty points.

As my old daddy used to say, "Australia has adopted the finest traditions of British bureaucracy and refined it
into an Art Form.

[bigdoggottaeat]

Yes please. Do you have first hand knowledge of this? Or did you just hear it from someone else? (Fact v Rumour.)

It’s fact mate, I know him. If it’s progresses to court you’ll hear all about it on the news.

[aroa]

In Law. real...not CAsA "law" what right do three CaSA persons on a day out of the office have to remove any property of the drone inventor/flyer.
It appears this visit was not a police investigation with any cop powers that may entail.
There is an basic law /British, that says the police, and presumably the Cantberra "non-police", cannot seize a person's property until they are charged? or convicted of an offence. And you are not obliged to give them any 'thing', document or comment that may incriminate yourself.
Any Legal wizards out there to correct or otherwise.?
And I do NOT want any made up answer from Smart Aleck aka Dr Discrepancy who is a know serial Bullsh*ter Supreme.
( How do I know? I have a document from him,explaining at length in verbal vomit,3 pages, that false sworn testimony ( ie LIES) by 3 CAsA persons is but a discrepancy in the wording !) Which confirms that (non) Aviation House really is a Loony Bin.

[Lead Balloon]

The Civil Aviation Act includes a whole Division setting out powers of investigators appointed under the Act, and scads of stuff about searching and seizing with and without warrant.

If it is true that the folks in the video are being investigated for the purposes of criminal prosecution, let us give thanks for those doing the investigation. Can you imagine what might happen if the dangerous criminals involved were not crushed with the full weight of the law? A380s would be crashing into primary schools. Oh the humanity. The safety of air navigation demands an investigation and prosecution.

If true, it's just the busy work of picking off of easy targets.

[Squawk7700]

I can tell you from personal experience that those in CASA needing to execute on their powers of arrest (amongst other powers), are well and truly versed in it and willing to execute by informing the local plod of said powers!

[nonsense]

The fact that a bunch of amateurs can put this together from scratch in two years does rather suggest the effectiveness of Mr Trumps promised wall might be rather temporary! Drug smugglers have been building submarines in Columbian jungles for years now; I can't imagine it will take terribly long for people smugglers to produce drones. And it's not like they're going to be too fussed by rules!

[KRviator]

In Law. real...not CAsA "law" what right do three CaSA persons on a day out of the office have to remove any property of the drone inventor/flyer.
It appears this visit was not a police investigation with any cop powers that may entail.
There is an basic law /British, that says the police, and presumably the Cantberra "non-police", cannot seize a person's property until they are charged? or convicted of an offence. And you are not obliged to give them any 'thing', document or comment that may incriminate yourself.
Any Legal wizards out there to correct or otherwise.?.There is "Regular law" for the state Police, AFP, et al, then there is the Civil Aviation Act and Civil Aviation Regulations that bestow upon various CAsA employees powers of search and siezure that are genuinely the envy of Police departments around the country -in other words, CAsA have powers of entry, search and siezure - without warrant - that no one else in law enforcement has. I have a hangar on an airpark, the land is freehold, not leased from Council or anything, yet under CAR305, CAsA has powers of entry to my private dwelling without warrant if I'm doing something as simple as changing the spark plugs in a spam-can, or even part-way through building an RV-10. Check out Section 32 of the Civil Aviation Act (https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2019C00320/Html/Text#_Toc24460258) if you want to be genuinely scared about what they can do...
Civil Aviation Regulation 305:
Access of authorised persons
(1)Subject to any aviation security requirements, an authorised person shall, at all reasonable times, have access to any place to which access is necessary for the purpose of carrying out any powers and functions vested in him or her in pursuance of these Regulations, and, in particular:
(a) must have access at all times to an aerodrome for the purpose of inspecting the aerodrome; and
(b) must have access at all times during working hours to:
(i) premises at which an activity authorised by a civil aviation authorisation is being carried out; and
(ii) any documents or drawings associated with the activity; and
(c) shall, at all reasonable times, have access to any aircraft for the purpose of inspecting the aircraft.
(1A)A person must not prevent, or hinder, access by an authorised person to any place to which access is necessary for the purpose of carrying out any of the authorised person's powers or functions under these Regulations.

Under Section 32AJ of the Civil Aviation Act - they can require you to answer questions put to you by an investigator - no matter how incriminating they are, you do not have the right to silence when dealing with CAsA under certain conditions -though any thing or statement delivered under that provision cannot be used in criminal prosecution - but that doesn't stop CAsA initiating Administrative action against you based on information, documents or 'things' you have provided.
32AJ Power to require persons to answer questions and produce documents
(1) An investigator who is on or in premises that he or she has entered under a warrant under this Part may require anyone on or in the premises to:
(a) answer any questions put by the investigator; and
(b) produce any books, records or documents requested by the investigator.
(2) A person must not fail to comply with a requirement under subsection (1).
Penalty: 30 penalty units.
(2A) Subsection (2) does not apply if the person has a reasonable excuse.
Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (2A) (see subsection 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code).
(3) It is not a reasonable excuse for a person to refuse or fail to answer a question or produce a book, record or document on the ground that to do so would tend to incriminate the person, but the answer to any question, or any book, record or document produced, or any information or thing obtained as a direct or indirect consequence of answering the question or producing the book, record or document is not admissible in evidence against the person in any criminal proceedings, other than proceedings for an offence against subsection (2).

[Sunfish]

.....and you thought you lived in a free country. The problem for CASA is that the way they are going, they are likely to push some forms of aviation underground (like the man carrying drone). There will be a scramble to try and detect and prosecute people doing this which will predictably fail.

Then widespread flaunting of the law becomes the norm, eventually Government realises that the laws are useless and repeal them as bad jokes or exempt the activities. Aviation example: hang gliding. Domestic examples: Victorian liquor licensing laws (BYO restaurant emergence), decriminalisation of marijuana.

The next revelation: a judge has told me that booze and cigarette taxes can’t be raised any further because they are now at the point where any further increase leads directly to product substitution with illegal drugs like Ice, dope and worse.

My advice to CASA is the same as I was once given in a slightly different context by a senior lawyer: “CASA, if you want to strengthen your regulations, water them down.” It sounds perverse, but it isn’t.

[Lead Balloon]

But Sunny: This is about the safety of air navigation! Any price - including the sacrifice of liberties - is worth paying in return for the protection of air safety.

(And you meant “flouting”, not “flaunting”.)

[gerry111]

(And you meant “flouting”, not “flaunting”.)

Flaunting's what the farmer's daughter, with the big three blader, is doing.. :cool: