What is PPR all about?

[englishal]

What is PPR all about? You read through the Jeppesen Botlang airfield manual, and virtually every airport requires PPR, or so it says.

I cannot believe that ANY UK airport / airfield is really so busy as to need PPR for all VFR flights, and you would have thought that an airport is...just that, an airport, just waiting for people to come and land or take off.....so why PPR? I could understand it if it is someones private stip, and they're 'doing you a favour' by letting you land, its common courtesy to phone through beforehand and make sure its ok.

Anyone had any real problems NOT getting PPR beforehand, and just turning up (other than the Wolverhamton Halfpenny spaceport increasing landing fees)??? Anyone been turned away, becasue the airport is just so busy they cannot handle you?

Cheers
EA:)

[QDMQDMQDM]

Anyone been turned away, becasue the airport is just so busy they cannot handle you?

Had to go to Cardiff and they had some rugby thing on there and were operating a slot system. I phoned up and 'got the last slot', but 'had to be out by 11.47' or something. When I got there the place was empty, I was almost the only aircraft on the apron. When I left the only traffic was a B737 on 8 mile final. Ridiculous.

I agree -- mostly it's overkill.

QDM

[Chilli Monster]

I don't think you'll find any problems just pitching up at your average GA field and landing, as you say. The mere fact that you establish 2-way contact over the R/T and they happily give you airfield details can in fact be taken to be the necessary PPR.

However, at larger airfields (and dare we say we're now getting into the realms of airports, the word you use in your post) there may be limitations as to why they can't accept GA over their larger paying customers. Refuelling might not be available for GA due to staff shortages. Parking may not be available due to Work in Progress. ATC may be limited due to staffing, thereby reducing the traffic that can be handled. All this contributes to the requirement for PPR at larger airports for GA.

Where I work our staffing is much reduced over weekends from our weekday. Not just ATC but refuelling, Fire cover and other facilities. In order to keep things manageable therefore the airfield is PPR, both for visitors and IFR training. In addition it would be highly embarrassing if we weren't PPR and someone pitched up in a large'ish business jet for which we were not equipped to deal with in terms of ground services and Fire cover.

Having said that - I've never turned anyone away who hasn't called for PPR beforehand.

CM

[sennadog]

I've not personally had any problems with PPR but I have heard a few longer than necessary RT sessions near Manston where inbound flights have not had PPR.

My advice, get PPR as a matter of courtesy if nothing else plus I like getting the inside track as to what RWY is in use at a particular time together with circuit activity.

IMO PPR just reduces some of the stress particularly when visiting an unfamiliar airfield.

[2Donkeys]

At smaller fields, PPR often has nothing to do with "airport" ops. The two cases not mentioned so far in this thread are:

a) Giving airport noise abatement information. Many small airports are hanging on by their fingertips and appreciate the opportunity to provide an arrival brief that will asssist in keeping the locals noise-free.

b) Some airfields are tricky, and the airport authorities want to ensure that incoming pilots are fully briefed on their strange little features. Clacton is one that comes to mind immediately.

[englishal]

Agreed, that there is nothing wrong with phoning up beforehand to check stuff like the best place to park, fuel availability......if you want to, and you're correct it is polite to phone a smaller field. However, I am just curious as in other countries, PPR is not normally required, NOTAMS inform you of areas of the airport closed, your airfield plates tell you where to park, and where to pick up fuel, (what about self service credit card pumps in the UK? plenty abroard) etc..

Interestingly, I have never got PPR to the channel islands or france..nor never had a problem. Does a flight plan acceptance indicate PPR has been granted? Or do they just not worry about it?

Cheers
EA;)

[Keef]

PPR for many smaller fields is so that they can brief you on noise abatement and local NIMBYs. Do them the courtesy of calling.

The Channel Islands are Class A airspace and PPR is mandatory. Go there without it, and you may be turned away. I always call for PPR and have never had a hint of a problem.

[BlueLine]

Back to the original question what is PPR all about.

Quite simply its having the common courtessy to ask the owner if you may use their facilities. Unlicensed aerodromes and Aerodromes having an Ordinary licence are not the same as a Public aerodrome. They are private property and you have no God given right to go there. In the main, you will not be refused if you ask however, many seem to think they are a public facility and that permission is not required.

[Aussie Andy]

I recall a dual navex when training and we wanted to go into Shoreham from Wycombe (I think from memory because our usual destination for this exercise, Goodwood, was waterlogged at the time).

When we called them up on the phone for PPR, they said "sorry - we're very very very busy today" I think because it was the first fine day in ages, and so every man and his dog wanted to use the airfield. Even so, my instructor said don't worry, we'll call them on the radio - they might be less busy then and let us in, but alas they were too busy even when we got there. No matter, we orbited the overhead (well above the circuit) for the sake of the navex, and then headed for home.

So it wasa matter of flow control for them I guess.

[tacpot]

Interesting question. It could be that once a few fields deceided hat PPR was the only option for them (for valid local reasons), lots of other fields started to figure that if they forced peope to observe PPR, they could give them the Noise Abatement procedures, make sure that they had the weather, knew the circuit height etc. Dont't assume that just because an entire country's system operates a certain way, there is any logical reason for it to do so.

However, as I always want to know the joining procdures, runway in use, weather, unusual airfield activity etc. for any airfied I'm going to, I don't find it a problem to slip a polite "can I have permission" into the conversation when I ring them.

[distaff_beancounter]

englishal As most of the posters have said, many airfields have to do this to protect themselves from the local NIMBYS & planners. Some airfield have planning restictions thrust upon them, such as only 20 movements on a Sunday. They may then have to refuse your PPR request, in order to give their home-based aircraft priority. Other airfields have agreed with the locals, not to allow in exceptionally noisy aircraft. Some military or partly military airfield, eg St Mawgan, Duxford, Manston, have PPR for security reasons.

If you look in the flight guides, there is a difference between "PPR" and "PPR by telephone". The former means that you can usually get your PPR automatically, on first radio contact with the airfield, when you are inbound. "PPR by telephone" means just that, & is more strictly enforced.

In practice, I always telephone ALL small airfield before leaving base, just to check the weather, & anything that I might have missed on NOTAMS.
Some of the replies that I have received are:-
"the runway is waterlogged" (Sandown).
"we are expecting about 50 microlights at the time you plan to get here!" (Various).
"there is parachuate dropping between the hours of xx & yy" (Various)
"if you do come here you will have to leave before 2.00pm, when the Red Arrows are expected" (Hensdridge).
"the good news is the airfield is open - the bad news is the hard runway is closed for resurfacing - but you can land on the grass if you wish" (Duxford).
"I would delay your arrival for a couple of hours, for the fog to clear" (Cranfield)
"The airfield is closed due to snow on the runway" (Elstree)
"the airport is closed until we remove the aircraft that is blocking the runway" (Bournemouth)
etc etc

[Coke611]

and PPR would stand for?

So PPR is just where you call an airfield before you are in the circuit to land?

[Evo7]

PPR = Prior Permission Required

Like distaff, I think that calling ahead is just common sense. It's amazingly common for pilots inbound to Goodwood (my home airfield) to be oblivious to NOTAMed goings on ("Goodwood Information, G-PRAT is over the racecourse for an overhead join" "G-PRAT, are you aware there is a TRA over the racecourse?" "Um... negative"). Giving them a call first just gives you a second chance to pick up something you might have missed...

[englishal]

Channel Islands are Class A airspace and PPR is mandatory. Go there without it, and you may be turned away

As I mentioned I have never got PPR for the CI.....This stems from my first X channel checkout, the instructor wasn't bothered about getting PPR, so I never have, and no one seems to care as far as I can see. Does acceptance of the flight plan constitute permission maybe?

I think PPR is a British thing, we like to Queue in this country, if we see a queue we join it, quite happy to wait in line. PPR is a similar concept, a few airports / airfields probably used to be PPR for a good reason, then other airports follow suit, until all are PPR, and yet nobody really knows the reason why ;)

Its a fair comment to phone before arrival to be sure of local procedures etc, but if PPR really does mean 'on first radio contact ' with the airfield then why put it in the airport guides, as surely all airports are then PPR? (Except a radio field, who can't give permission or clearance for anything;) )....

Seems like additional work for the sake of it (something we're good at in this country), like booking out etc. Why fill out a nice form on a computer terminal with all sorts of info, just to leave a class D zone? Whats wrong with, on first contact with ATC, G-WXYZ I want to leave the zone to the South???

Cheers
EA:)

[Chilli Monster]

Seems like additional work for the sake of it (something we're good at in this country), like booking out etc. Why fill out a nice form on a computer terminal with all sorts of info, just to leave a class D zone? Whats wrong with, on first contact with ATC, G-WXYZ I want to leave the zone to the South???
The reason some airfields are class 'D' is because they are busy (but that goes for a lot of airfields outside CAS also). The idea behind the ATC frequency is therefore the safe and expeditious handling of the airfield traffic. You're 'booking out' request (which effectively constitutes a flight plan for Class 'D' airfields - a requirement) is better suited to pre-notification by landline or other means rather than cluttering up the frequency. It's easier for us so we can plan what's coming up shortly, it's better for you as you don't get unduly delayed and asked a lot of unnecessary questions - again tying up the frequency from its PRIMARY function.

CM

[Tinstaafl]

That's funny. Elsewhere in the world seems to manage quite well without this ludicrous 'booking out' procedure.:rolleyes:


Face it. The whole UK system is a bureaucratic & expensive nightmare.

[distaff_beancounter]

englishal Except a radio field, who can't give permission, or clearance for anything... It is correct that, at an airfield that only has Air-Ground Radio, the radio operator cannot give clearance to land. BUT, if the radio operator is also representing the airfield operator (which he often is, if he is an employee, or even the owner of the airfield) , then he can refuse you permission to land. I believe that legally he does not even have to give you a reason, if the airfield is a private one.

I have heard this over the radio, as something like:-

"G-ABCD, on behalf of the operator of xxxxx aerodrome, I must inform you that the airfield is closed to all traffic, until further notice, due to the runway being obstructed"

[englishal]

Thanks distaff,

good point, I had forgotten about this.

Rgds
EA:)

[Them thar hills]

EA
Don't try going to Barton without PPR in winter !
That means by telephone.
Because its grass and has lots of home-based aircraft, it suffers in winter, so understandably they prefer (insist) on PPR if the runways are in not-so pristine condition. Sherburn also has soggy moments !
Cheers TTH

[fireflybob]

Quite a few aerodromes are PPR to non radio aircraft - surely this is clear enough.

I was also under the impression that the requirement for PPR was also to do with insurance aspects and the liability of the person operating the aerodrome.

One GA airfield lists the grass taxiways as only being available "on request". I think the reason this is stated is so they are covering themselves if the grass taxiways are waterlogged and you get stranded - if you didn't bother to ask then it's on your head - much the same as PPR.

PPR also saves a certain amount of superfluous R/T chat - they know who you are and where you are coming from and, as has been stated above, they often give you some useful "gen" about local hazards etc.

[Keef]

Englishal - interesting, that! My old flight guide had the telephone number for pre-takeoff PPR for the Channel Islands airfields.

The current Bottlang doesn't. I checked the AIP, and it seems that the requirement for PPR by phone to fly VFR to Alderney, Guernsey or Jersey has gone away.

Still needs the "Request SVFR clearance CI zone" in the box on the flight plan, though.

[GoneWest]

Chili - agree 100% about booking out....so how come Manchester International is book out by R/T??

Serious question. I used to fly from MIA and it used to be telephone book out - there was a particularly handy telephone in the toilets of Northern Executive (never did figure that out either) - then it went to mandatory R/T bookout.

[Chilli Monster]

so how come Manchester International is book out by R/T??

On which Frequency? - because I bet as sure as hell it isn't any of the ATC frequencies but one of the handling agents ;) (A look at Bottlang shows that they both have their own frequency - sounds like you might be confusing this with the comments raised in the thread).

CM

[foghorn]

I'm not sure why everyone is getting so hot under the collar about PPR and booking out.

Firstly PPR. Surely it is good airmanship to find out all you can about a planned destination? IMHO this includes giving them a phone call first to find out local information. This is all the more important at smaller fields that don't provide weather and NOTAMs to the AFTN. As has been pointed out, the smaller fields may sometimes be clinging on the existance by their finger nails so anything that allows them to keep the local NIMBYs quiet is good.

In my experience the airfields that don't require PPR tend to be the larger fields outside controlled airspace - since they provide weather and NOTAMs and usually have well-published procedures.

As booking out goes, many places I've visited accept booking out on the RT as a part of your first call. The others that don't have booked me out with payment of the landing/parking fees. My understanding was that this is mainly for the movements book - and for emergency situations so your intentions can be traced.

Finally, booking out of CTRs - out of the three foreign countries that I have flown in, two require full ICAO flight plans to be filed one hour before all flights from airports within CTRs (the Netherlands and South Africa). Here in the UK it's fairly normal to be able to book out verbally by internal telephone or R/T with a very abbreviated flight plan just before departing - a much less onerous requriement. This is simply because under ICAO it is a requirement to submit a flight plan and get an ATC clearance to fly VFR in >= class D airspace. The UK interprets this recommendation leniently by allowing the abbreviated flightplans passed during booking out to be acceptable for the purposes of a VFR clearance. Some other countries don't!

cheers!
foggy.