Delta 757 hard landing this morning at Azores PDL

[JanetFlight]

For those with a FB account... I really wonder if she ever fly again...!?
https://m.facebook.com/groups/1117953661582803?view=permalink&id=2631018893609598

[Hotel Tango]

Link broken it seems.

[JanetFlight]

Is this working?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/acores.global/permalink/2336693386448162/

[Lake1952]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/acores.global/permalink/2336693386448162/

Looks like quite the wrinkle in the fuselage.

DL 414 from JFK (https://www.facebook.com/groups/acores.global/permalink/2336693386448162/)

[Raffles S.A.]

I don't have facebook. But it should show up on AvHerald eventually.

[atakacs]

Badly bent indeed. Wonder what happened

[JanetFlight]

I think this one works even for non Facebook accounts
https://www.facebook.com/groups/acores.global/permalink/2336693386448162/

Or

https://jornalacores9.pt/uma-aterragem-dificil-da-delta-airlines-em-ponta-delgada-deixou-a-aeronave-em-mau-estado/

[Zeffy]

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20190818-0

​​​​​​ (https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20190818-0)
METAR Weather report:

08:00 UTC / local time:
LPPD 180800Z 04013KT 9999 FEW010 SCT040 21/17 Q1020

08:30 UTC / local time:
LPPD 180830Z 04012KT 020V080 9999 FEW010 SCT040 21/17 Q1020

09:00 UTC / local time:
LPPD 180900Z 04012KT 010V070 9999 FEW014 SCT035 21/17 Q1021

[DaveReidUK]

Photos here (https://onemileatatime.com/rough-landing-damage-delta-757/) of creasing to both fuselage and wing skins. Looks DBER to me.

[JanetFlight]

My apologies Dave... DBER Stands for..?

[CEJM]

Damaged Beyond Economic Repair or more commonly used BER (Beyond Economic Repair)

[AviatorDave]

damaged beyond repair, I dare to presume.

[Wycombe]

Damage looks reminiscent of the Monarch one at GIB some years ago - which was fixed, but times have moved on and this is apparently a 23 year-old airframe.

[chuzwuza]

dont think so. I was part of the team that went to Gib and it wasn’t as bad as this one.

[evansb]

FYI On average, airliners are retired after around 25 years. Presently, the average age of an airliner in North America is 14.1 years.

[atakacs]

Surprised this doesn't make more headlines. Delta breaking an airframe is newsworthy. Also what about the passengers / crew ? This wasn't a smooth one...

[flynerd]

Badly bent indeed. Wonder what happened

Collision with a planet.

[golfyankeesierra]

Something special with PDL?
(Nice to know when diverting Mid-Atlantic)

[sixchannel]

[
Seasonal flight by Delta. Azores are holiday destinations. Punta Delgado airport has single runway in excess of 8000 feet.

[DaveReidUK]

Straight-in approach on Rwy 12 (no ILS, 1% downward slope).

[sixchannel]

I wonder if PDL suffers from cross wind/wind shear like FNC in Madeira?

[Speed of Sound]

That is some damage!

A 23 year old airframe would put its manufacture at around the same time as Boeing was knowingly fitting sub-standard structural parts made by AHF Ducommun, to 737NGs.

Does anyone know if they supplied Boeing with parts for other models including the 757?

[casablanca]

Wonder if just a hard landing or touched down on the nose gear? Sometimes at low weights Boeing’s seem to land pretty flat making that a threat I guess

[scotbill]

This kind of damage seems to be usually associated with nosewheel first touchdowns - often as a result of excessive speed or windshear.

[blue up]

Sad when a 757 dies, a bit like that scene in "Marley and Me". :{

Boeing countered this sentimentality by making 737s so unpleasant that nobody mourns the loss of an airframe. :ok:

[punkalouver]

Actually, I was thinking of what is called de-rotation damage.....nose comes down too quickly after main gear touchdown. 767's especially early ones which had a weaker structure are known for this. Pushing forward on the control column after touchdown can lead to this. Perhaps there are other variations on that theme that can give the same result.

[lomapaseo]

Isn't it the inertia of the tail still coming down after the main gear bottoms out?. ala the famous MD80 test flight where the roof wrinkles actually separated ?

[Cubs2jets]

September 29, 1988 I flew one of four chartered Learjet for Eastern Airlines from Miami to San Jose, Costa Rica. I carried a couple 757 main tires and two EAL mechanics.

Seems that Eastern 757 N501EA had aborted takeoff AFTER rotation. The sudden heavy braking slammed the nose down, collapsing the nose gear and splitting the fuselage open (wiring and piping hanging out of the belly) about half way between the nose gear and the wing root.

Boeing sent a crew down and the airframe was repaired and the ship returned to service, After Eastern's demise, the airframe went to NASA as a flying laboratory.

Never a word in the papers or periodicals in the States. Not much online even today.

[misd-agin]

Wonder if just a hard landing or touched down on the nose gear? Sometimes at low weights Boeing’s seem to land pretty flat making that a threat I guess

Looking at 777 performance charts and the pitch attitude difference is approx. 0.5 degrees between light and heavy weights. Striking the nose gear first doesn't occur because of a 0.5 pitch difference on final.

[PAXboy]

blue up

I know the Mods don't like 'I Agree' posts but that was my thought exactly. If there was not the magic number in the title - I would not have read it. The 757 is so graceful and the winglets suit it better than others.

[DaveReidUK]

Cubs2jets

It gets a brief mention in both the NTSB and FAA accident summaries. The aircraft in question (actually N523EA) was barely 2 years old at the time of the event and is still flying today with Fedex.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x316/n523ea_c010ca1e38dad3cea292c05c696ea9faaf70b5d5.jpg

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/200310

[RatherBeFlying]

Boeing could solve a few problems by restarting an updated 757 production line and calling it a 737-900;)

[atakacs]

Is this incident listed at the NTSB (https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/index.aspx)? Can't seem to find it

[DaveReidUK]

If there's an investigation (which is likely) it will be the responsibility of the Portuguese GPIAA. The NTSB website will, in due course, contain just a reference to the foreign investigation (see, for example, the AAL B738 at Kingston, investigated by the JCAA).

The doesn't, however, preclude the NTSB from making Safety Recommendations in connection with the event if it sees fit.

[CabinCrewe]

odd that the internal colour of the EA 757 Door 1 left is painted black?

[casablanca]

Looking at 777 performance charts and the pitch attitude difference is approx. 0.5 degrees between light and heavy weights. Striking the nose gear first doesn't occur because of a 0.5 pitch difference on final.
while you are probably right and this probably has no bearing on the 757, there can be a fairly large difference in the 777 LR and freighters. Due to shorter fuselage and rudder arm you normally don’t see speeds less than 140 and actually on the freighters that used to require ballast fuel at very low weights now they actually have ref increasing when below 155 tons( approximately) so you could be 20 plus knots faster than a 777-300 Er at same weight.....often leading to floating and hence having to fly it on to the runway.
when I say Boeing lands flat I am primarily comparing to MD-11 that had the nose up around 7 degrees on touchdown so for me it feels flat!

[Charlie_Fox]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1200/dscn0454_87ab87b3a1c36ee2e1f7550899ce1515871fb999.jpg
This was repaired.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1200/dscn0457_84819ceaf160f21f247bf5e16c32dd5202223d70.jpg

[Less Hair]

That happens when you want to avoid a statistical “hull loss” at any cost.

[misd-agin]

I’d guess that it’s an easier repair then damage around the nose gear which might take more force on every landing.

[gearlever]

MX mishap.

[Slow and curious]

How hard a landing did it take to put the wrinkles in the human brain?:ooh:

[DaveReidUK]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's the creasing in the wing that's the deciding factor in this instance.

[Capt Fathom]

DaveReidUK, the photo you mention showing damage to the wing is I suspect, the top of the fuselage. You can see the rotating beacon.

[Water pilot]

That looks like a lot of work; most of the damage is not visible. I don't know planes, but if this were a boat I would say that you have at least four compromised bulkheads and a whole bunch of stringers that need to be replaced. The big problem is going to be doing this with all of the wiring bundles in place, you can get it all back together and spend a year chasing gremlins caused by wires damaged in the repair process. Of course, in your world you can't simply tow a plane back to harbor when the electrical system fails.

I recall that many years ago a certain type of wiring insulation was used that degraded after X number of years, and a lot of planes became uneconomical to repair.

[DaveReidUK]

Capt Fathom

Yes, you could be right, although I suspect it won't make a lot of difference to the (un)economics of repairing the damage.

[Whispering T-Jet]

Flight tracking shows a straight in visual on RWY 12 (Nav Portugal doesnt publish any IAP chart for RWY 12 I can find). I haven't operated into there but have paxed in. Looks like 2 pilot WOCL operation - left JFK at 11:51pm.
Wind was 040/12 so wind off the (lowish) hills to the NE - so no where near as exciting as Funchal. PDL is home to wide body ops of Azores Airlines (SATA) with regular flights to FRA, BOS etc so it's not the backwoods.
Açores are a seriously beautiful place if you get the chance to visit.

[cactusbusdrvr]

I’ve got about 4500 hours PIC in the 757. I wouldn’t be surprised if they dropped the nose on after touchdown. If you got into full reverse without “flying” the nose down gently it will slam on. I always had my hands right by the yoke all the way through the derotatation when the F/O was flying and saved a few slammers over the years.

Best technique is to open the reversers on landing but don’t go above idle until the nose was down. Also had the nose pop up once on a landing by the other guy as well. To this day I still am not totally sure what caused that other than the spoilers deploying with the nose up during touchdown.

[Lord Farringdon]

Thanks for the input cactusbusdrvr. The B757 seems to feature in a few of these events...although I'm only thinking of this one and UA627 at Newark. Not being a PP, is it a design issue or something specific about the B757 that gives it a propensity to do this if not 'flown on' correctly? I mean this applies to all aircraft but I just seem to be aware of more B757's suffering this kind of hard landing damage, and your post seems to suggest a need to be wary with this bird. It's not as though you would be able to avoid some deliberately tough encounters with the runaway at times like in this example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPn3MBNt7Rc

Those guys had their work cut out for them and the nose seemed to have been derotated fairly quickly, even before the reversers had any effect, no doubt to get some much needed nosewheel steering. But it wouldn't take much for that to have been a lot harder given some unfavorable shear. I guess I'm asking, is it something you worry about in the B757 that you might not worry so much about in say a B777? Or is this just pilot technique/bad day at the office/weather related issue for which the B757 is no more likely to suffer this damage than any other similar type? Apologies in advance for the clumsy question.

[GGR155]

There was a similar albeit less damage caused incident at Funchal in the 80's. I think that aircraft was repaired on site by Boeing people to a standard where it was flown back to Seattle for fixing.
You may recall AE subbed a couple of Nationair DC8's based at MAN and LGW. Brakedwell may be along to comment..........

[Mike_UEM]

Wasn’t there also one earlier this year in one of NYC airports?

[Chiefttp]

Yes, United Airlines at EWR

[LowObservable]

The 757 was designed for NY-Miami and the old BEA system (which still existed in BA). As a political project, it was intended to enlist RR and the US-worshipping ends of the Civil Service to drag BAe out of Airbus and into partnership with Boeing. As it happened, RR and P&W beat the snot out of one another coming up with the perfect 757 engine, while GE bailed out and (with Snecma) proceeded to dominate the single-aisle market.

Uncompetitive for most domestic US flights, the 757 was the nastiest way to cross the Pond until the sadists invented the nine-abreast 787 - on a hot day, long-range cruise was the only way to get there and ground speed westbound could be in the low 400s, easily. Not to mention the horrible -300, which shook like a wet dog in crosswinds.

The sooner they're all turned into aircraft-grade aluminum rollaboard frames, the better.

[ironbutt57]

The sooner they're all turned into aircraft-grade aluminum rollaboard frames, the better.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure you would enjoy travelling across the pond nowadays on the A-320 family narrowbodies since they are not so politically incorrect as that "horrible" 757, or any other horrible American product...

[4runner]

well said old chap, well said.

[capngrog]

Charlie Fox:

This thread is a discussion of a B-757 hard landing and consequent damage. What does your Post #41 showing damage to Lufthansa D-ABYZ, a B-747-230B have to do with the subject of this thread?

[DaveReidUK]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x379/n26123_ewr_a666e13704cb62d50f4ea6a7c7b6adb9a803626e.jpg

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20190615-0

[Lake1952]

DL will indeed attempt to repair the 757 damaged in a hard landing at PDL. A chartered Antonov 124 carrying parts, equipment and Boeing engineers flew from Piane Field KPAE to KATL where some DL technicians were boarded. It then flew onto PDL. Rumor has it that the plane will be ferried to KJAX where repairs will be completed.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/VDA2269/history/20190824/1900Z/KPAE/KATL

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/VDA2284/history/20190827/0300Z/KATL/LPPD

[Spooky 2]

Wonder why it would go to KJAX? Does DL have a MRO facility there?

[capngrog]

Why would Delta Airlines (DL) ferry the damaged B-757 to KJAX (Jacksonville, Florida), instead of KATL (Atlanta, Georgia) where their home base is located? Delta's home base features some pretty impressive MRO facilities. Is there a heavy maintenance facility located at KJAX?

[OldnGrounded]

Yes, there is: Flightstar (https://mroholdings.com/facilities/flightstar/).

[Lake1952]

I believe the aircraft was to get its D check after the summer busy season anyway. Many of those are outsourced by DL. The repairs will be incorporated into the D check.

[procede]

I'd also guess that space at KATL is at a premium and chances are that the aircraft will spend a lot of time wherever it goes.

[brakedwell]

I remember the Funchal 757 well, it was very creased all the way up behind the nosewheel. Boeing put on a new nose and flew it back to Seattle to complete the repair.

[MENELAUS]

Actually it flew to Luton. The Boeing field engineers put a pit prop through the DV window frame, jacked her up, drifted down and then welded the nose gear in to place, and they flew her back gear down. So no new nose. Save the radome; couldn’t fix the antenna so no radar on the way home.
And prior to that they had to weld the windows shut as the DV window frame was distorted. !! Funny old thing that.
Brilliant, old fashioned Boeing engineering at its best. Long gone I fear.

[AviatorDave]

I am surprised that Delta opted for a repair. Anyway, they certainly ran the numbers ...

[Lake1952]

The ETOPS 757s are a unique fleet that has given DL a lot of versatility and allowed it to start up several new seasonal routes to western Europe. I suspect airframe parts are easy to come by given all the recently retired airframes. Without knowing exactly what needs to be repaired or replaced, it doesn't surprise me at all that they have opted to repair this aircraft.

[Lake1952]

There is a flight plan filed to ferry the damaged Delta B757 from PDL to KATL for today September 16.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL9959

[Zeffy]

On the way home - FL340 passing 030W.

RVSM approved after all of that repair drama? How would that work?

[zerograv]

It could be that being a "Random Route", outside of the Organized Track System, which is normally further north, then the area sectors involved, Santa Maria and New York, might have said "OK", even if your RVSM capability is not fully capable on this occasion.

[hans brinker]

I'd be worried pressurizing that crushed can ....

[DaveReidUK]

That will soon get the creases out. :O

Joking aside, I'm not convinced that the initial damage assessment at PDL which allowed for a non-revenue ferry flight back to base will necessarily mean that the aircraft is repaired and returned to service.

[deja vu]

I recall 2 757s being repaired on the apron in Kunming in 1991 or '92 following heavy landings, apparently nose wheel first. In both cases, only a few months apart. A bamboo hangar was built around the nose area back to the leading edges and covered with strippey plastic sheets. Teams from Boeing did the work on the apron area., they took a couple of months in each case.
Being 7000' AMSL we were warned about flaring early at Kunming.

[hans brinker]

just do a ground run at max diff till the popping stops.......

[Aihkio]

I don't think internal over pressure has been included in any transport aircrafts bending calculations (it makes them stronger). In space applications it has everyday usage in liquid fuel tanks.

[Lake1952]

I believe that the aircraft was scheduled to go in for a D check after the summer travel season anyway. DL uses the ETOPS B757 fleet on several seasonal routes to Europe mainly from JFK and BOS that disappear in September. I personally have no idea how long a D check is supposed to take, but it certainly seems that N543US is destined to return to service.

[Lake1952]

The DL 757 that sustained severe damage back in August after a hard landing at Ponta Delgado in the Azores has now returned to revenue service. Many had originally thought it was a w/o.

https://twitter.com/mleibner/status/1201221085867528200

[DaveReidUK]

I'll admit to being surprised. :O

Repair carried out by Flightstar at Cecil.

[tdracer]

Delta does love their 757s - 127 of them in their active fleet.
They only have 11 new aircraft currently on order, so they are not looking to retire many aircraft anytime soon.

[atakacs]

Wonder how they managed to get it to Jacksonville. Must have been an interesting ferry flight.

[DaveReidUK]

Via Atlanta.

[Lake1952]

Just to review, as I posted back in post #63 in this thread, DL chartered an Antonio 124...picked up equipment and parts at Paine Field (Boeing) and presumably some Boeing engineers, flew to Atlanta to pick up DL tech people and from there onward to Ponta Delgado to carry our repairs to allow a ferry flight back to ATL and ultimately Jacksonville. The aircraft was scheduled to have a D check in any event. That may have made the damage repairs more cost reasonable.

[misd-agin]

Delta does love their 757s - 127 of them in their active fleet.
They only have 11 new aircraft currently on order, so they are not looking to retire many aircraft anytime soon.

from apc -

45 orders for A220-100 and 50 orders for A220-300
Boeing 737-900ER deliveries continue through 2019 for a total of 130
122 A321CEO being delivered at 2-3 per month until 2020.
35 A330-900 NEO started in 2019
15 A350-900 deliveries started 2017, 10 deferred
Just ordered 100 A321NEOs and 100 Options. Deliveries begin in 2020.
10 350's postponed by 2 to 3 years. 30 extra. 321 order on June 20th at Paris Air Show.

[Zeffy]

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/excessive-derotation-on-landing-buckled-delta-757s-fuselage/138227.article

[DaveReidUK]

GPIAA Summary Report (in Portuguese and English): Summary Report of Serious Incident with Boeing 757-251, registration N543US, 18th August, 2019, at Ponta Delgada Airport, Azores Island (2019/SINCID/09) (http://www.gpiaa.gov.pt/wwwbase/wwwinclude/ficheiro.aspx?tipo=0&id=10735&ambiente=WebSiteMenu)

[Pilot DAR]

It's a little worrisome to me that pilot behavior makes necessary the word "Overderotation". Yeah, I get that it can happen, but pilots must remember to fly the plane to the wheel chocks. The fact that the mains are on does not mean that you're done flying, you don't just drop the nose onto the runway, you finish the landing by continuing to fly the plane...

And before someone questions why there's enough elevator effectiveness to enable a pitchdown of that rapid severity, remember that elevator effectiveness and travel limits are designed to enable stall recovery, not to protect from overderotation!

[esscee]

Same thing happened to a MON 757 at GIB some years back, took around 3 months to repair. Quite surprised how buckled it was around the lower forward fuselage.

[Commander Taco]

Early build 767-300’s were susceptible to forward fuselage buckling as well. The last one I recall was an AMR 767-300 in Heathrow in the late 1990’s. I believe Boeing beefed up the forward structure in later build airplanes to preclude this problem.

[IcePack]

The Monarch aircraft accident imho has few un-answered questions in that their was a timing anomaly on the FDR read out. Of interest after the aircraft returned to service it “ de rotated” markedly on landing. Whilst I had nothing to do with the Gib incident I had enough interest to get the FDR pulled to see what it said about the de rotation I experienced. The FDR showed I had applied 1/2 up elevator to arrest the de-rotation. Note no hard nose wheel contact was experienced as I arrested it. I still wonder why it did it as not a usual 757 trait.

[tcasblue]

Some Boeing aircraft just derotate quickly requiring significant up elevator. 727 and 777 come to mind. It seems pretty instinctive to just pull back and let the nose touch smoothly.

[misd-agin]

GPIAA Summary Report (in Portuguese and English): Summary Report of Serious Incident with Boeing 757-251, registration N543US, 18th August, 2019, at Ponta Delgada Airport, Azores Island (2019/SINCID/09) (http://www.gpiaa.gov.pt/wwwbase/wwwinclude/ficheiro.aspx?tipo=0&id=10735&ambiente=WebSiteMenu)
Ham fisted. Pushed on the yoke. That's in a lot, if not all, events where the fuselage is damaged by nose gear impact.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Kapton? I believe it's still in use but I stand to be corrected...I think Kapton Teflon Kapton is in use too...I don't know the extent though.

[BDAttitude]

The maximum pitch rate, during derotation, was of -2.2⁰/s, but was reduced to near zero prior to nose gear touchdown
The load factor reached 1.53G when the main landing gear touched the runway (2nd touch) and then increased up to 1.88G, probable value of the nose landing gear in contact with the runway.

How to hit the NLG on the runway with 1.88G but near to zero pitch rate?

Edit:
After looking at Figura 2 and 3 for a while, it seems to me he was overcontrolling the plane before the landing and was caught with the control column in the wrong half wave at MLG touch down. One of the "digitial pilots" I try to avoid sharing the cockpit of a light aircraft with.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Screwed up Boeing Push, perhaps?

[jcbmack]

PA what, pray tell is the Boeing push?

[Pugilistic Animus]

Gentle forward pressure on the yoke just before the flare....makes for a greaser if done right...they probably don't teach it anymore and I don't know if it works on every Boeing

[PW1830]

Good way to break a 767.
Read the QAR reports of creased fuselages around Door1.

[Slezy9]

It's not just a Boeing thing... Works a treat if you time it well on the A320. No idea about the other larger Airbus models.

[golfyankeesierra]

A330 as well, I believe the only way to make a greaser.
But what you probably mean is to release a little bit of backstick (just before the aft bogey touches). Pushing will wreck any aircraft.

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

...they probably don't teach it anymore ...

I would hope not. A technique of marginal utility if done right and of possible significant damage if done wrong would seem like a trap. "But my last 999 landings were so smooth" (or 9,999, or even 99,999) isn't going to count for much if the last one broke an expensive aircraft.

[Spooky 2]

They don't teach because it 's not appropriate on either the 757 or 767. Voodoo flying techniques are for fools.

[Airbubba]

It was an old 727 technique like the double rotation where you lift the nose, pause and lift off and then rapidly pull to get the plane up above obstacle height. I know you've been in training for a lot of years and have seen many of these 'tricks' taught in the past.

Push the nose over in the flare with a 757 and you'll get pictures of the fuselage wrinkles on social media.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1639x1080/delta_boeing_757_fuselage_damage_759x500_large__c308fa781457 4fa18c6a1b86afbb6c32fb6dc3c5.jpg

[Pilot DAR]

I think that applies to most any airplane! I've never flown a jetliner, do any of them have a recommended procedure in the flight manual for pushing nose down during the last phases of landing?

[Spooky 2]

The term is 'derotation" and while it may be discussed, it's pretty hard to demonstrate in a simulator. It's not a matter of "pushing the nose down" so much as easing the nose down. I think one of the previous posters referenced the 727, and yes you could get maybe a foot or so off the TD point and relax a "little" back pressure. Sometimes that would work, other times, not so much. Pilots just by the nature of the profession like to analyze and promote their own techniques, while the manufacture tries his best to avoid teaching "techniques". Trouble is that its still taught by those pesky pilots.

This could really :mad: up your day in the MD11 as the spoilers deployed in 2 stages, First with the MLG touch down and second with the nose gear touch down. (This logic may have been changed after a few years in service). At any rate there could be a dramatic pitch up if these two events happened in rapid succession to the point of a tail strike.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Got it right - and fortunately never got it wrong ! - occasionally on the 747, very gentle easing of the back pressure could "roll" the front bogeys of the main undercarriage on to the concrete to achieve an almost imperceptible touchdown. Then one worked on "being kind to the nosewheel:" The autoland took no notice of any of this, just plonked it down with a low RoD.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Oh man I didn't realize my answer to a respondent,'s question would be so contraversial!
I never mentioned anything about pushing the nose down during the flare. Performing the Boeing Push isn't scary or adventurous and it's been around since the 720s as prototypical jet for the 707s. If a pilot doesn't feel comfortable with it then don't do it...and because I'm no longer a line pilot but an tenured engineering professor nobody needs to worry about PA doing the Boeing Push on the 757. Thank God for that :}

[Spooky 2]

The "Boeing push"? More Voodoo flying stuff. Never heard of it or saw it in any 707/720.

[Pugilistic Animus]

https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-93068.html
from 411A who sadly has passed. Third post in I think
I'm actually stunned that so few Boeing pilots have heard of the Boeing Push.

[Spooky 2]

This closing statement pretty much sums it up as well are not all created as Sky Gods as much as we wish we were:)

"Required a definate technique for manual flying.
As some found out, the Boeing 'push' did not work"

[Go4PoweredDecent]

The Boeing push is a technique that could be used to great effect on the 757 and the 767. It also works well with the A321 and 330, but it’s not a ‘day to day every time it works technique’. It’s only for when the aircraft doesn’t kiss the tarmac during a regular landing due to miss timing during the flare when flaring too early or too much. It wasn’t something one did on a DC10.
In essence, you flare but the main gear levels off slightly above the runway. As the aircraft slows and begins to settle, as it begins to sink towards terra firma, a slight forward push will help pick the gear up as the aircraft settles downwards, generally leading to a smooth touch down.
It goes without saying, that pushing forward too far, may have unintended consequences.
Its more of a bit of ‘fettling’ with the elevator during the flare rather than a definitive prescribed technique for each and every landing.
First time I saw it done, it frightened the life out of me. Eventually I was teaching it myself.

[Pugilistic Animus]

I was simply told almost verbatim..." If you're gonna get an arrival just give her the Old Boeing Push and you can just drag her on in".

:)

[Obama57]

The "Boeing push"? More Voodoo flying stuff. Never heard of it or saw it in any 707/720.

How old are you? That was the technique on this side of the pond, since, forever. I flew the -100, QC, -200 way back when.

[Pilot DAR]

Is the "Boeing push" described in the flight manual, or any training material?

[Pugilistic Animus]

Pilot DAR, the long and short of it is no. Not in AFM/FCOM or in the FCTM

[Chiefttp]

Used it many times in the 727, Never in the 757/767. They both land nicely anyway, I don’t see any reason for a push.

[Spooky 2]

Pugilistic Animus

Delete. My error.

[misd-agin]

Push? More like easing on the back pressure while maintaining a positive pitch attitude. With a positive pitch attitude you can't land with the nose wheels touching down first. The guys that push often get to sit at a table and everyone has a glass of water except them. Lots of weird 727 landing techniques...none of them necessary. It flies, and lands, like an airplane.

[Spooky 2]

Well at least someone has been paying attention:)

[zoigberg]

I’ve heard it described as the Boeing ‘nudge’. Have seen it on the 737 used quite nicely. Definitely not a push, And definitely not in the FCTM