Qantas A321 Freighter

[Stationair8]

AFR reporting that Qantas have signed a $1 billion dollar contract with Australia Post.

The deal includes three new A321 freighter aircraft.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

‘New’ 😂

I think youll find theyre the old JQ A321s, 2 of which are approaching their 60,000 hour spar limit (which only applies to passenger operations).

[Blueskymine]

‘New’ 😂

I think youll find theyre the old JQ A321s, 2 of which are approaching their 60,000 hour spar limit (which only applies to passenger operations).

They will be pretty reliable machines those ones.

At least with the extra sound deadening in the flight deck they will be nice and quiet.

[SOPS]

So it’s ok if the spar fails during cargo ops?

[PoppaJo]

Cutting into W and Z? Are they nuts?

[Going Boeing]

Cutting into W and Z? Are they nuts?

That was firmly established many years ago, now it’s a case of how much damage they do.

[gtseraf]

So it’s ok if the spar fails during cargo ops?

If you look at the way rules are applied differently to freight ops from pax ops, eg, fatigue rules, there appears to be the belief that a freighter operation is less critical. I guess the 2 pilots, being the only people on the aeroplane are not THAT important. The regulators also seem to be oblivious to the fact the freighters, generally, fly on the same airways and into the same airports as pax aircraft, yet the risk to those on the ground appears to be ignored. Once again, safety is our priority, as long as it does not cost too much!!

[das Uber Soldat]

‘New’ 😂

I think youll find theyre the old JQ A321s, 2 of which are approaching their 60,000 hour spar limit (which only applies to passenger operations).
Please be Y and Z. Pls pls pls.

[ilikecheese]

‘New’ 😂

I think youll find theyre the old JQ A321s, 2 of which are approaching their 60,000 hour spar limit (which only applies to passenger operations).

Couldn’t be worse than the 300’s they have banging around.
Great news for the EFA guys/girls, seems the Australia post contract isn’t going anywhere else anytime soon.
Enjoy the Bus!

[Blueskymine]

What makes you think efa will get them? They will be flown by a third party operator under the network aoc based in Nauru.

[PoppaJo]

Couldn’t be worse than the 300’s they have banging around.
Great news for the EFA guys/girls, seems the Australia post contract isn’t going anywhere else anytime soon.
Enjoy the Bus!
737 is built for freighter runs. VWY and Z is most certainly not lol! Horrendous pieces of $hit.

[Roj approved]

New CP and Deputy CP for EFA from the ranks of JQ, ready made for the fleet change over. I’ve actually heard a third 321 will go across too.

They will carry a lot of boxes, all in cans for quick loading, and if they put the Aux tanks back in they could go a fair distance too.

[Weapons Grade]

New CP and Deputy CP for EFA from the ranks of JQ, ready made for the fleet change over. I’ve actually heard a third 321 will go across too.

They will carry a lot of boxes, all in cans for quick loading, and if they put the Aux tanks back in they could go a fair distance too.

I wonder if Precision will do the conversion? If so, the airframes should be good for about 27T combined on the main and lower decks.

It will be interesting.

[Rated De]

New CP and Deputy CP for EFA from the ranks of JQ, ready made for the fleet change over. I’ve actually heard a third 321 will go across too.

Very interesting development.
A Qantas pilot oversaw the importation of contract pilots. Firstly, it was "Qantas" freight flying 767 why Qantas 767 pilots sat around idle. Rewarded handsomely.

Now introduce a new type with the JQ "management" into EFA, with a new type, but look for new pilots on a different and presumably reduced terms.

Wash, rinse and repeat.

[ilikecheese]

Will most likely be flown by EFA crew on the same ‘narrow body’ pay scale and conditions.
I wonder if/how the announcement will influence the EBA negotiations that are going on.
Could be looking at an all airbus freighter fleet in a few years. EFR is a reliable workhorse, but she’s the last in the qantas fleet and only has a couple of years left on the lease.

[Going Boeing]

I wonder if Precision will do the conversion? If so, the airframes should be good for about 27T combined on the main and lower decks.

Do you have any info about the mods required to convert them for freight ops? Being the first A321P2F’s in the world, I’m sure that there are a number of engineering issues to sort out.

[Ertimus]

If safety was paramount no passenger plane would ever leave the ground, they do crash occasionally. Having an engineering background on critical machinery I would say everything has a use by date and having a lower limit of safety on cargo planes seems perfectly correct to me. After doing the flight between Singapore and London many times and seeing the hiding the 747's were given I would say that retiring them to the paddock carrying cargo is a very sensible thing to do. I would hate to think I was on a high hour high cycle 747-400 doing a long haul flight without an empty seat and full of cargo.

[Australopithecus]

So...not a pilot then, Ertimus? A piece of crap flogged out hull is more useful as beer cans.

[Weapons Grade]

Do you have any info about the mods required to convert them for freight ops? Being the first A321P2F’s in the world, I’m sure that there are a number of engineering issues to sort out.
Try looking up Precision Aircraft Solutions; it should enlighten you somewhat.

[tail wheel]

QANTAS SIGNS UP FOR AIRBUS A321 PASSENGER TO FREIGHTER CONVERSION (https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/08/qantas-signs-up-for-airbus-a321-passenger-to-freighter-conversion/?fbclid=IwAR2Bpkj64gVkOUk_ePKCy12nyuXuxmX7x6qqTZ5O81reqJ4zKj Y_6RMUvUg)

[No Idea Either]

I’ve heard of A300 (767) freighters but are there any other airbus conversions to freight??

[ebt]

I’ve heard of A300 (767) freighters but are there any other airbus conversions to freight??

Yes, EFW (Airbus & ST Engineering JV) has done A330P2Fs and is developing the Airbus program for A320/321P2F. Precision Conversions is working on the A321PCF.

I believe both companies are putting priority on the A321 because the longer front means they run into less issues with the pitots and other probes when they punch the hole in the side. There was talk years ago of a conversion with the door at the rear for the A320, but I think that went into the too hard basket. The A321 also offers more space and payload, so makes more economic sense for most operators. With A321neos starting to hit the market, the timing may be right to pick up some suitable feedstock at the right price to make it all work.

[Zhoottoo]

https://www.stengg.com/media/30980/a320-a321p2f.pdf and https://www.elbeflugzeugwerke.com/en/freighter-conversion/

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Something that did surprise me ---- the press release, published in the Sydney Morning Herald, referred to new aircraft, and the "first time" new A321 were to be delivered as freighters.
Anybody know for sure whether they are new build or a duff press release??
Tootle pip!!

[Wunwing]

Yes, I noticed the same thing in the SMH. However the Australian Aviation article says up to 3 aircraft with them being conversions which would seem to indicate that they are not new.
The AA article also says that the source of the aircraft is not known. Does Airbus make a new build A321 freighter or are they being converted from the pax line?

Either a lot of QF spin merchants out there who don't have a common song book or the reporters aren't listening to what is said. I suspect its the latter.

Wunwing

[Boe787]

Mate at Jetstar advises first one is sourced externally, and already booked in for conversion next year, other two will be VWY and VWZ

[Less Hair]

Are these the ones with the new front cabin door?

[No Idea Either]

Thanks ebt

[Sparrows.]

Are these the ones with the new front cabin door?

What in the world is that? All 320’s/321’s have the same front door to my knowledge.

[Less Hair]

The ST Aerospace design moved the front door forward to gain more cargo space. Interesting area to cut through.

https://images.app.goo.gl/gPrVuVx61vWZjPts5

[Blueskymine]

The ST Aerospace design moved the front door forward to gain more cargo space. Interesting area to cut through.

https://images.app.goo.gl/gPrVuVx61vWZjPts5

Step over the dunny to get in. Sweet.

[Engineer_aus]

All-new generation A330P2F and A320/A321P2F conversions to enter market from 2017 until 2019



I have only just seen some of the Boeing 737NG P2F conversions come online. Interesting to see QF is actually going to be the launch customer for the A321F. Wow is AJ feeling ok? Also is this his first new aircraft order placed as a CEO?

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/first-qantas-a321p2f-will-be-ex-bmi-airframe-460354/

maybe we’re not getting rid of WZ so quickly after all

[morno]

Ohhh MSN 835 will be such a nice airframe :}

[oicur12.again]

Oooops, I see it was operated by Onur for a while.

[Blueskymine]

Didn’t the original 2 321s come from Onur as well? They’d been parked up in storage and cost an absolute fortune to get up to spec and somewhat reliable?

[PoppaJo]

They were ex Spirit. Corroded comets.

[Engineer_aus]

It is ok. Most of us engineers have seen this before. Airline A,B or C buys some 2nd hand plane, overhaul it and bring it to Australia. Then it comes down to the line maintenance team to fix it up properly and then management say oh Line maintenance is too expensive, we can't afford to give you a pay rise or there is the door with a redundancy.

[plhought]

Ohhh MSN 835 will be such a nice airframe :}

My airline operates MSN 59 and 20+ others under MSN 500. They're fine machines. All about how well they've been taken care of.

[PoppaJo]

Finally on the way. Due lunchtime Thursday Melbourne.

[Ladloy]

Are they hiring? 😢

[galdian]

Are they hiring? 😢

Know the "Secret Handshake" and in like Flynn. Allegedly! :ok:

Cheers

[Derfred]

Know the "Secret Handshake" and in like Flynn. Allegedly! :ok:

Cheers

Care to enlighten us? I know people there and I don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.

[galdian]

Throw away line, apologies if viewed with evil intent.

Smallish operation, to know some of the inmates/have past history doesn't hurt.

[smiling monkey]

Just arrived Perth from Singapore. Anyone know whether it will be based in Perth and operated by Network A320 drivers perhaps?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-uld#25c3fd6e

[Roj approved]

Just arrived Perth from Singapore. Anyone know whether it will be based in Perth and operated by Network A320 drivers perhaps?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/vh-uld#25c3fd6e

The CP and Dep CP are both ex Jetstar, I also believe some DEC’s onto the A321. There was LWOP opportunities for positions in MEL advertised to Jetstar pilots earlier this year.

[PoppaJo]

Melbourne based led by RH. Nothing to do with Network. I wouldn’t be basing an old machine that has just been cut into for the first time too away from engineering either.

I nearly fell over when someone told me they were planning on cutting into 20+ year old Airbus machines on the verge of max pax spar limit. Bound to keep the engineers busy.

[Global Aviator]

Melbourne based led by RH. Nothing to do with Network. I wouldn’t be basing an old machine that has just been cut into for the first time too away from engineering either.

I nearly fell over when someone told me they were planning on cutting into 20+ year old Airbus machines on the verge of max pax spar limit. Bound to keep the engineers busy.

Yeah I’m sure they put all the time and effort into a P2F without knowing what they are doing!

[Iron Bar]

Well they didn’t with 330-200.

[blubak]

Melbourne based led by RH. Nothing to do with Network. I wouldn’t be basing an old machine that has just been cut into for the first time too away from engineering either.

I nearly fell over when someone told me they were planning on cutting into 20+ year old Airbus machines on the verge of max pax spar limit. Bound to keep the engineers busy.
Be interesting to see what company the engineers work for.
Was told jq have said they want nothing to do with it,guess its not important though,a ceo once said modern aircraft dont need maintenance,just the same as a modern car🙄

[Capt Fathom]

I nearly fell over when someone told me they were planning on cutting into 20+ year old Airbus machines on the verge of max pax spar limit. Bound to keep the engineers busy.

Being stripped bare and rebuilt in a German hangar? Probably better than new!

[myshoutcaptain]

Been u/s in perth since arrival. Stab fault. Scheduled 1300 departure.

[Wizofoz]

Was in Sydney tonight.

Like the rego- VH ULD.

[wheels_down]

What’s going on with this machine? I think it was mentioned earlier that slicing and dicing was going to cause problems and it appears to have been nothing but a headache since it got here.

Are the crews still getting paid while it sits grounded indefinitely?

[blubak]

What’s going on with this machine? I think it was mentioned earlier that slicing and dicing was going to cause problems and it appears to have been nothing but a headache since it got here.

Are the crews still getting paid while it sits grounded indefinitely?
How long has it been grounded?
Long list of wet leased 146s & anything else that can be found filling the void i guess.

[Double_Clutch]

Looks like it’s been racking up the parking fees in ML since 28 Nov.
Guess this will pay for all the news concrete at Tullamarine.

[PoppaJo]

As I said, go cutting into these pieces of junk expect problems.

They barely did any air testing once the conversion was complete. They didn’t push it hard enough to see its flaws. You can have have German or whatever engineers doing whatever you please to it on the ground, however the real test is up above. I think the failures on first leg to Perth said it all. Doomed ever since.

Which is why they most certainly should not go cutting away at Y and Z.

[Global Aviator]

What exactly is the problem?

B747, 757, 767, etc have been P2F for years.

Teething problems?

[The Banjo]

Nothing happens when the coffee button is pressed. NO DISPATCH item. Engineers attempting to locate the missing 'part'.

[MELKBQF]

Awaiting a new landing gear.

[wheels_down]

Sending her back to Singas for a refund?

Patch away all they want, is it really going to fix the problems? What a waste of time and money this whole thing has been.

[Qantas 787]

Sending her back to Singas for a refund?

Patch away all they want, is it really going to fix the problems? What a waste of time and money this whole thing has been.

Is anyone surprised? Who had this brilliant idea? Was it Andrew David or someone else? Anyone responsible won't be held to account.

The 767 and 737s haven't caused these problems so soon after entering service. And this at a time where freight is booming and we need every aircraft we can get.

[davidclarke]

It’s the first of its type. Of course there will be some teething issues. However there is nothing exotic about it, it’s just an airbus. The problems will get sorted.

It has significantly more capability than the 737s it will eventually replace.
The 737s are old and have payload issues as a result of the 9g barrier.
Are they supposed to keep flying relics forever?

[LAME2]

You need to expect 3 months from Entry into Service for teething problems to be ironed out. This is the same whether your talking B767, B757 B737 or A321. Only B737 with the Israeli mod are affected by the 9 G bulkhead. AEI mod is not affected. I believe there is a fix approved for the Israeli bulkhead. Not 100% sure how they are fixing it or how many man hours involved.

[zanthrus]

I guarantee if you experience anything like a 9G deceleration the 9G barrier will be the last thing to worry about. Strapping PAG's is a waste of time. No PAG is going to get you as you are already squished like strawberry jam. Not much structural strength forward of the instrument panel is there?

[blubak]

Is anyone surprised? Who had this brilliant idea? Was it Andrew David or someone else? Anyone responsible won't be held to account.

The 767 and 737s haven't caused these problems so soon after entering service. And this at a time where freight is booming and we need every aircraft we can get.
The 767 was a boeing built dedicated freighter & had only flown minimal hours when bought,there was a 2nd 1 on offer but that was turned down.
The 733's are all ex tn/qf converted pax aircraft so all history & records right there from day dot.
The 734( just like this 321) came along after a long career with many overseas airlines & what we are seeing is almost identical in the problems encountered after conversion due to its maintenance history at many overseas facilities.
Guess u get what u pay for.

[aseriesofleftturns]

Qantas freight has announced that A330 freighters will be introduced to the fleet in the future. Any information on how many and if these will replace the 767?
Will they be ex QF aircraft?

[Anti Skid On]

Unsure on that, but did anyone notice the 734 recently on the general Rumours page with destroyed main gear from a hard landing. Like most freighters it had a hard life.

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/638130-734-hard-landing-exeter.html?highlight=Exeter+Boeing+hard+landing

https://www.avherald.com/h?article=4e1e21a4&opt=0
.

[ExtraShot]

Qantas freight has announced that A330 freighters will be introduced to the fleet in the future

They have?

[Capt Fathom]

Id imagine the cost of having a simulator for a single aircraft is not viable.

What? How much electricity does a 767 Simulator use?

[Derfred]

What? How much electricity does a 767 Simulator use?

I don’t know. How much does it cost to move a simulator from Sydney to Brisbane?

[goodonyamate]

I don’t know. How much does it cost to move a simulator from Sydney to Brisbane?


and back again in 18 months

[ScepticalOptomist]

The money they make by selling time in it to externals far outweighs the running costs!

[ExtraShot]

So where is this announcement?

[TWOTBAGS]

"tell him he's dreaming" is the answer to QF converting existing A330s to freighters about now.
simple facts
QF A330's are GE powered, Airbus has only certified PW & RR powered 330 freighters and given they have not sold a new build in years and there dozens of available machines for conversion no one will certified a GE powered machine.

[Australopithecus]

Would they even contemplate converting -200s which are almost all over 60,000 hrs and into the expensive Intermediate service goals part of their airframe life? Surely it would not escape their attention that the age/reliability curves have already been crossed?

Oh wait...a ground-breaking yet costly late life modification is right up their alley, so I am thinking its 75% a goer.

[davidclarke]

"tell him he's dreaming" is the answer to QF converting existing A330s to freighters about now.
simple facts
QF A330's are GE powered, Airbus has only certified PW & RR powered 330 freighters and given they have not sold a new build in years and there dozens of available machines for conversion no one will certified a GE powered machine.

The P2F conversions are certified for all engine types.

[PoppaJo]

Are the RAAF not taking the 200s?

[HK144]

Are the RAAF not taking the 200s?

Why would the RAAF be taking anymore 200s? They took two to convey to KC30s and whilst they were offered a further two they were not of the same vintage and therefore RAAF declined the offer. No plans for any more.

[PoppaJo]

EOI open for A321 both seats.

737 MEL also.

If they are firm on A321 only as they sort of mention, that will be an issue for many at Tiger however will suit many back home from KA.

[SHVC]

Wonder why they wouldn’t advertise these internally. Plenty of us will be sitting around for the next 6 months minimum.

[PoppaJo]

Probably because it’s VWY and Z. You’d need to be paying me a lot of cash to even consider flying those two full time again. I have never had so many roster screwups thanks to those two certain aircraft. Terrible machines.

[das Uber Soldat]

Probably because it’s VWY and Z. You’d need to be paying me a lot of cash to even consider flying those two full time again. I have never had so many roster screwups thanks to those two certain aircraft. Terrible machines.
They were great practice for the sim though, I'll give them that.

[SHVC]

They weren’t that bad. Never less a good ECAM trainer

[PoppaJo]

Very true.

I think I just had a bad relationship with them lol.

[Ladloy]

Would there be much interest? Asking as a non type rated person hoping for the best.

[PoppaJo]

Would there be much interest? Asking as a non type rated person hoping for the best.
I know about 3 who are from Hong Kong applying, who also know about half dozen others doing the same, from China also (321)

I’d imagine the entire Tiger 737 Pilot group, those who are still out of work, would also make an appearance.

[blubak]

I know about 3 who are from Hong Kong applying, who also know about half dozen others doing the same, from China also (321)

I’d imagine the entire Tiger 737 Pilot group, those who are still out of work, would also make an appearance.
When are the 2nd & 3rd aircraft due to join the 1st 1?
Is conversion already in progress?

[Roj approved]

When are the 2nd & 3rd aircraft due to join the 1st 1?
Is conversion already in progress?

The 2nd one arrived in PER the other day and is expected to be online next month. The 3rd is being converted in SIN at the moment

[volare_737]

Has anybody heard anything back from the EOI application? Would be interesting to know if they are swamped with applications!!!!

[On Guard]

Has anybody heard anything back from the EOI application? Would be interesting to know if they are swamped with applications!!!!

nothing heard

[Ladloy]

330s being added to the mix.

[Enos]

So it’s ok if the spar fails during cargo ops?
I was thinking the same

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

330s being added to the mix.
Obviously feeling the pinch without the PAE 757 to assist the 767, plus horrendous serviceablility of A321's isn't helping.

[unobtanium]

If only they had some well maintained 767s to convert to freighters.

[Brakerider]

Surely this is to replace the 767? As it is coming off lease fairly soon.

[markis10]

Surely this is to replace the 767? As it is coming off lease fairly soon.

The 767 carries 6T more, not much of a replacement

[Buttscratcher]

...but does it tho?

[swh]

The 767 carries 6T more, not much of a replacement

What did QF do to EFR to lift 70 tonnes, couldn’t do that when it was with ANA.

[markis10]

What did QF do to EFR to lift 70 tonnes, couldn’t do that when it was with ANA.

EFRs capacity hasnt changed, Qantas stated the converted A330s will have a 50t capacity (possibly the early deliveries with the weaker floor?)

"The converted A330 aircraft for Australia Post will be able to carry around 50 tonnes of cargo each flight, more than double the capacity of other freighters operating for the national postal service," Mr Joyce said.

[swh]

All that means is the aircraft cubes out before it reaches max weight, packages/mail is low density freight.

[The Pirate]

Apparently QF pilots are coming across to EFA to "Teach" their pilots how to fly them! :E

Jack.

[deja vu]

Apparently QF pilots are coming across to EFA to "Teach" their pilots how to fly them! :E

Jack.

No biggy, EFA will have a few years of A321 by that time. 6 sectors should cover the A330 conversion.

[Kaboobla]

Not exactly.

As per the current arrangement, all simulator and line training costs for EFA pilots are either free or paid for by QF mainline.

The use of the 767 simulator (now in Brisbane) is not charged for and the B737-400 simulator, which is owned by EFA, is maintained free of charge by QF sim techs.

Insurance and power for these simulators is paid for by QF also.

The EFA pilots will need some kind of line training experience - even if its only CCQ. This experience will be gained on current QF A330 passenger revenue sectors.

QF training captains will be involved which theoretically would involve incurring a cost for use. Again this cost will be covered by QF mainline.

[romeocharlie]

This experience will be gained on current QF A330 passenger revenue sectors.

QF training captains will be involved which theoretically would involve incurring a cost for use. Again this cost will be covered by QF mainline.

Just curious, is this like mainline pilots gaining experience on the JQ 787 revenue sectors circa 2017?

[74world]

Not exactly.

As per the current arrangement, all simulator and line training costs for EFA pilots are either free or paid for by QF mainline.

The use of the 767 simulator (now in Brisbane) is not charged for and the B737-400 simulator, which is owned by EFA, is maintained free of charge by QF sim techs.

Insurance and power for these simulators is paid for by QF also.

The EFA pilots will need some kind of line training experience - even if its only CCQ. This experience will be gained on current QF A330 passenger revenue sectors.

QF training captains will be involved which theoretically would involve incurring a cost for use. Again this cost will be covered by QF mainline.

Ha,ha,ha…..mate, you are soooo wrong ! But thanks for the good laugh 😂
you obviously don’t know anything about EFA.

[Kaboobla]

Is EFA paying for the two ex mainline A330s ? No of course. They are being gifted to them free of charge.

The mainline pilots that used to fly those aircraft are now surplus to requirements. Despite the rhetoric of increased utilisation of other aircraft by the QF CP.

Those excess crew will not be offered the chance to interview for EFA.

I could care less about any of this really, but don’t kid yourself that cross subsidisation to EFA from mainline QF doesn’t occur and don’t kid yourself that EFA pilots are just Alans latest shiny toy. In due course someone more cheaper will come along and undercut your jobs and you will be thrown on the career scrapheap like everyone else.

[davidclarke]

I could care less about any of this really, but don’t kid yourself that cross subsidisation to EFA from mainline QF doesn’t occur and don’t kid yourself that EFA pilots are just Alans latest shiny toy. In due course someone more cheaper will come along and undercut your jobs and you will be thrown on the career scrapheap like everyone else.

Nearly every EFA pilot earns below the award.
Mainline pilots would be nuts to take a position at EFA even if it was offered.

[morno]

Is EFA paying for the two ex mainline A330s ? No of course. They are being gifted to them free of charge.

The mainline pilots that used to fly those aircraft are now surplus to requirements. Despite the rhetoric of increased utilisation of other aircraft by the QF CP.

Those excess crew will not be offered the chance to interview for EFA.

I could care less about any of this really, but don’t kid yourself that cross subsidisation to EFA from mainline QF doesn’t occur and don’t kid yourself that EFA pilots are just Alans latest shiny toy. In due course someone more cheaper will come along and undercut your jobs and you will be thrown on the career scrapheap like everyone else.

They'll be offered positions on different fleets if need be, how awful :rolleyes:

[74world]

Is EFA paying for the two ex mainline A330s ? No of course. They are being gifted to them free of charge.

The mainline pilots that used to fly those aircraft are now surplus to requirements. Despite the rhetoric of increased utilisation of other aircraft by the QF CP.

Those excess crew will not be offered the chance to interview for EFA.

I could care less about any of this really, but don’t kid yourself that cross subsidisation to EFA from mainline QF doesn’t occur and don’t kid yourself that EFA pilots are just Alans latest shiny toy. In due course someone more cheaper will come along and undercut your jobs and you will be thrown on the career scrapheap like everyone else.

EFA pilots are below the award.
going from mainline to EFA would mean for those guys a HUGE pay cut as they would be on EBA’s terms and conditions…..

”paying for the aircrafts” ???? well they are the same shareholders, so it’s going from 1 spreadsheet to another. Really not a big issue.
at the end of the day the freight business is VERY profitable for QF……QF freight can’t even manage the volume and has to subcontract to Cobham, Air Nauru, Airwork and Atlas Air.

[Kaboobla]

EFA pilots are below the award.
going from mainline to EFA would mean for those guys a HUGE pay cut as they would be on EBA’s terms and conditions…..

”paying for the aircrafts” ???? well they are the same shareholders, so it’s going from 1 spreadsheet to another. Really not a big issue.
at the end of the day the freight business is VERY profitable for QF……QF freight can’t even manage the volume and has to subcontract to Cobham, Air Nauru, Airwork and Atlas Air.

If EFA is so massively profitable then why doesn’t it buy, off its own bat, two more aircraft rather then taking mainlines ?

VA have A330s still on the Australian register. Buyers market I would have thought.

If it’s so simple to transfer aircraft as you say then why not just transfer pilots ? Yes there is a pay difference but guys and girls might look at the option of being fully stood up the whole time and being part of a successful and growing operation and decide it’s a better career deal then mainline

[Wizofoz]

EFA pilots are below the award.


Which award?

[74world]

If EFA is so massively profitable then why doesn’t it buy, off its own bat, two more aircraft rather then taking mainlines ?

VA have A330s still on the Australian register. Buyers market I would have thought.

If it’s so simple to transfer aircraft as you say then why not just transfer pilots ? Yes there is a pay difference but guys and girls might look at the option of being fully stood up the whole time and being part of a successful and growing operation and decide it’s a better career deal then mainline

i don’t have all the answers, but here are some regarding your comments above:

1- old 330s that QF would have sold anyway
2- why buy cheap A330 even if it’s a buyers market ? It doesn’t make sense. It’s easier and cheaper to transfer QF’s old 330 to EFA
3- have you heard of crew cost? An EFA 330 captain will probably earn 1/2 of a mainline captain.

for info stood down Captains FOs and SOs have been (and are still) employed at EFA on a fixed term contract.
obviously they will return to the mothership once their contract is up as they were only there because they were stood down.

career wise, so far no one has resigned from mainline to stay with EFA, but few from Jetstar flying the bus have resigned to stay (EFA’s A321)

look mate I’m not here to argue with you, apparently you know more than I do 😏 👍

[markis10]

If EFA is so massively profitable then why doesn’t it buy, off its own bat, two more aircraft rather then taking mainlines ?

VA have A330s still on the Australian register. Buyers market I would have thought.

The Qantas aircraft are almost 2x the age of the ex VA ones, and thus their value is greatly reduced, add in the fact the initial A330s were rumoured to be ordered at a great discount thanks to A380 delays, it would be hard to find comparable cost aircraft on the market, with the exception of the VA bird marooned in Perth for the foreseeable future.

[717tech]

it would be hard to find comparable cost aircraft on the market, with the exception of the VA bird marooned in Perth for the foreseeable future.
Someone stole a Engine from the VA Bird, so it's probably even cheaper now.

[blubak]

The Qantas aircraft are almost 2x the age of the ex VA ones, and thus their value is greatly reduced, add in the fact the initial A330s were rumoured to be ordered at a great discount thanks to A380 delays, it would be hard to find comparable cost aircraft on the market, with the exception of the VA bird marooned in Perth for the foreseeable future.
The qf 330's are CF6 powered whereas ex VA & majority of other 330's around are RR. Engine commonality a big issue 1 would think & for EFA using same engines as QF, spares will be readily available without the added cost of a spare engine sitting in a shed somewhere.

[deja vu]

Cheaper to give the older A330's to EFA than fly them to Victorville. Dragonair's first A330-300, delivered new in 1995 has been a dive site for over 2 years.

[Australopithecus]

I don’t think you will ever see a RR logo on a Qantas nacelle again.

Old A330s have quite expensive intermediate service goal* maintenance requirements, and reliability is iffy. One advantage for freight operations is the frequent ECAM alerts serve as a cheerful wake-up call on those night sectors.

*ISG is for operations beyond the original 60,000hr service life of the aeroplane.

[ACMS]

Someone stole a Engine from the VA Bird, so it's probably even cheaper now.

Gone to Melb for the VA A330 at the Jet base.

[romeocharlie]

Which award?

That would be the one and only Air Pilot's Award 2020...

[Wizofoz]

That would be the one and only Air Pilot's Award 2020...

Then EFA pilots are not paid below award,,,,

[davidclarke]

Then EFA pilots are not paid below award,,,,

Yeah they are.
Maybe you should compare the two and then you will see it is many $1000s below.

[Wizofoz]

Yeah they are.
Maybe you should compare the two and then you will see it is many $1000s below.

MA000046: Air Pilots Award 2020 (fwo.gov.au) (https://awardviewer.fwo.gov.au/award/show/MA000046#P886_94042)

Narrow body Captain-146 942, FO-96,774

EFA- more than that.....

[davidclarke]

MA000046: Air Pilots Award 2020 (fwo.gov.au) (https://awardviewer.fwo.gov.au/award/show/MA000046#P886_94042)

Narrow body Captain-146 942, FO-96,774

EFA- more than that.....

You better read the entire award before you start sprinkling numbers champ.

[Wizofoz]

You better read the entire award before you start sprinkling numbers champ.

Maybe you could just point out where I'm worng, rather than being criptic?

[romeocharlie]

Maybe you could just point out where I'm worng, rather than being criptic?

Additions to minimum salary In addition to the minimum salary the following salary components will be paid as applicable.

(b) Airline Transport Pilots Licence [A.1.3(b) varied by PR718864, PR729304 ppc 01Nov21] A pilot (excluding Fokker-28 pilots) required to hold and exercise the privileges of an Airline Transport Pilots Licence by their company or CASA (or who operates under an exemption from holding that licence) will be paid $5435.64 per annum.

(d) Flying a turbo jet aircraft [A.1.3(d) varied by PR718864, PR729304 ppc 01Nov21] A pilot (excluding Fokker-28 pilots) flying a turbo jet aircraft will be paid $11,519.23 per annum

Pilots (excluding Fokker-28 pilots) who are required to carry out flying using an instrument rating will be paid an additional allowance as follows: Instrument flying rating $ per annum Command or Class 1 6587.56 Co-pilot or Class 2 4283.71 Night VFR or Class 4 1646.89

I'll leave you to add it up.

[Wizofoz]

Additions to minimum salary In addition to the minimum salary the following salary components will be paid as applicable.

(b) Airline Transport Pilots Licence [A.1.3(b) varied by PR718864, PR729304 ppc 01Nov21] A pilot (excluding Fokker-28 pilots) required to hold and exercise the privileges of an Airline Transport Pilots Licence by their company or CASA (or who operates under an exemption from holding that licence) will be paid $5435.64 per annum.

(d) Flying a turbo jet aircraft [A.1.3(d) varied by PR718864, PR729304 ppc 01Nov21] A pilot (excluding Fokker-28 pilots) flying a turbo jet aircraft will be paid $11,519.23 per annum

Pilots (excluding Fokker-28 pilots) who are required to carry out flying using an instrument rating will be paid an additional allowance as follows: Instrument flying rating $ per annum Command or Class 1 6587.56 Co-pilot or Class 2 4283.71 Night VFR or Class 4 1646.89

I'll leave you to add it up.

About168 for a captain. An EFA captain starts on 170+

[Sparrows.]

So you’re saying the commissioner that approved the EBA has incorrectly carried out their duties in applying the BOOT?

[PoppaJo]

If it’s below the award just report it.

One person at Woolworths did that, and it cost them half a billion dollars in backpay. Still facing billions in fines. That same sort of action is flowing around the sales industry at the moment, I read last week Coles is next up.

[74world]

About168 for a captain. An EFA captain starts on 170+

You're wrong, an EFA captain starts at 161K.

[74world]

So you’re saying the commissioner that approved the EBA has incorrectly carried out their duties in applying the BOOT?

No, but the award went up since the EBA came out some years ago...that's why it's "below the award".
Also keep in mind that people did not care about the salary since they were only going to stay a short while.
The main reason to join EFA was to get into mainline.

COVID came and overnight QF stop recruiting, in fact a lot of pilots were stood down, so EFA became attractive.

[romeocharlie]

About168 for a captain. An EFA captain starts on 170+

Jesus wept. It's $161,038 for narrowbody and $185,764 for widebody skippers. Below the current Air Pilot's Award 2020 because it's 3 YEARS EXPIRED.

The point of having an EBA is that there's some room for negotiating all the wonderful things like reserves and time away from loved ones in exchange for, I dunno, maybe some more money?

Maybe instead of arguing the finer points of the award or EBA for a company, perhaps in the spirit of Christmas 🎄 we should wish for better conditions?

[Wizofoz]

Jesus wept. It's $161,038 for narrowbody and $185,764 for widebody skippers. Below the current Air Pilot's Award 2020 because it's 3 YEARS EXPIRED.

The point of having an EBA is that there's some room for negotiating all the wonderful things like reserves and time away from loved ones in exchange for, I dunno, maybe some more money?

Maybe instead of arguing the finer points of the award or EBA for a company, perhaps in the spirit of Christmas 🎄 we should wish for better conditions?
\
Wasn't my understanding. If that's so, I appologise, I was mistaken.

[romeocharlie]

\
Wasn't my understanding. If that's so, I appologise, I was mistaken.

Have to say apologies on this forum are pretty rare! Thanks - hope you had a good Christmas 🎄 :ok:

[Wizofoz]

Have to say apologies on this forum are pretty rare! Thanks - hope you had a good Christmas 🎄 :ok:

Great thanks- well, if you're going to be opinionated, you have to fess up when that opinion is wrong!!

Best to you and yours.