Traffic Spacing?

[Sunfish]

Sitting in the lounge at Changi watching aircraft land approximately every 1.5 minutes. Do we match or better that frequency in Australia?

[spektrum]

I've had plenty enough late landing clearances and ambitious expedite instructions to not care much about this one. Are you an airline pilot Sunny?

[virgindriver]

Changi mainly* use one runway for arrivals and one for departures whereas we normally don’t in Australia.

This would greatly help with numbers imo.

[Lookleft]

spektrum, Sunfish just wants you to know that he is sitting in a lounge in Changi. He also knows how to get the stats for the movements at any of Australia's airports.

[Icarus2001]

1.5 minutes at say 130-140 knots is around 3- 3.5 nm separation. I believe we use 5nm in trail and no closing when handed off to the tower.

High speed taxi exits make a huge difference Sunfish.

[ROH111]

Sunfish fishing again.

You’re better than this sunfish. Enjoy your flight home.

[airdualbleedfault]

Sunfish, didn't you know Australia has the 2nd best ATC in the world.......

[Capt Fathom]

Sunfish just wants you to know that he is sitting in a lounge in Changi

None of the lounges at Changi have a view of the runways! :D

[topend3]

Maybe he was in the departure lounge

[VH DSJ]

Singapore's CTR (TMA) doesn't have any GA traffic so it can be much more streamline than what we have at Australian airports. Furthermore, they stop turboprops from operating in to WSSS, so air traffic management and sequencing is much easier.

[donpizmeov]

None of the lounges at Changi have a view of the runways! :D
The EK one does. But he couldn't afford those tickets :E

[havick]

Have a look at LGA, that’s how you move aircraft.

[LeadSled]

Sitting in the lounge at Changi watching aircraft land approximately every 1.5 minutes. Do we match or better that frequency in Australia?
Sunny,
Various UK airports are a better example of what is possible, and as one poster says ---- high speed exits, they make all the difference. He/she/X (just being gender neutral) is so right.
Tootle pip!!

[Global Aviator]

Plaza premium lounge has views of the running away...

Sat in the pool during a transit at the transit hotel watching de planes...

No idea on the capacity but don’t think it’s a world leader in movements. Check out Manila now that’s spacing...

[donkdonk]

Sunny,
Various UK airports are a better example of what is possible, and as one poster says ---- high speed exits, they make all the difference. He/she/X (just being gender neutral) is so right.
Tootle pip!!

What wake turbulence standard do they have on short final? That is the difference....

[VH DSJ]

You haven't seen tight spacing until you've landed in SFO or LAX where you get a landing clearance with two other aircraft still ahead of you on final.

[Ascend Charlie]

I counted 25 acft (well, their landing lights) stacked up on final at Atlanta. Two runways, so 13 or so on each.

[The name is Porter]

Sunny, do yourself a favour, go to LA, uber it to The Proud Bird, $15. Apart from great food, excellent craft beer and a great atmosphere, grab a table outside and watch the arrivals at LAX. They have lighties overflying & a mix of aircraft types. Then you'll see spacing.

[Weapons Grade]

You haven't seen tight spacing until you've landed in SFO or LAX where you get a landing clearance with two other aircraft still ahead of you on final.
#3 - cleared to land? Try ATL, ORD or DFW for both spacing and landing clearances.
Australia ATC procedures (not the ATCer's) - do not get me started!

[Icarus2001]

https://www.internationalairportreview.com/article/85317/runway-development-gatwick-capacity/

Fifty five movements per hour on a single runway. Agreed no traffic mix of turbo-props and high speed exits as well.

[Sunfish]

Sitting in the EK lounge. What prompted my idle speculation is why we are spending billions on a new Sydney airport and allegedly a third runway in Melbourne.

Could we save that expense by reducing spacing and removing noise minimizing operation practices including curfews?

Are we spending billions just to pander to a few selfish voters?

Furthermore, the volume of airline traffic in Europe is mind boggling compared to Australia yet they seem to run things with no fuss despite adverse weather, yet despite our benign weather we still have delays due congestion. Exactly why is this so? They also run 130kmh+ on freeways with no problems either. What is the reason? We seem to be slow and backwards.

[Icarus2001]

What is the reason? We seem to be slow and backwards. I think you answered your own question.

When I look at what happens in the rest of the world in many aspects of modern life, I shake my head at how we have allowed Australia to be run by the timid hollow people. We used to innovate here, no more. It is all about backside protection.

[ResumeOwnNav]

Atlanta actually has 5 parallel runways. They use 3 for landings and 2 for departures.

Is great to be on final and have 2 Mad Dogs abeam you, one each side for the other parallels. It's great to watch them flow traffic.

[machtuk]

The first time I went to the States for an endo I was at DFW, I just shook my head at how much traffic they processed, gets boring to watch after a while. Yep I like Oz, I see a plane every now & then & still get a thrill:-)

[777Nine]

Sitting in the EK lounge. What prompted my idle speculation is why we are spending billions on a new Sydney airport and allegedly a third runway in Melbourne.

Could we save that expense by reducing spacing and removing noise minimizing operation practices including curfews?

Are we spending billions just to pander to a few selfish voters?

Furthermore, the volume of airline traffic in Europe is mind boggling compared to Australia yet they seem to run things with no fuss despite adverse weather, yet despite our benign weather we still have delays due congestion. Exactly why is this so? They also run 130kmh+ on freeways with no problems either. What is the reason? We seem to be slow and backwards.

Personally I feel like everything in Australia is dumbed down for the common idiot. Speed limits, alcohol rules, shop/opening close times, curfews etc. Australia could be so much more but I guess that people like it like that.

[Troo believer]

That's because in the US it's up to the crew to ensure that the rwy is clear when they land.

Re TPs, sat next to a DEP Controller in SYD many moons ago to watch and was surprised by his comment that TPs didn't slow the ARR / DEP rates.
except in low vis ops when you can’t see the runway it’s the PIC’s responsibility to ensure the runway is clear. If it doesn’t look like you have the required separation you would go around and not rely on ATC regardless of which country you’re flying in.

[Ivasrus]

They also run 130kmh+ on freeways with no problems either. What is the reason? We seem to be slow and backwards.
Germany reduced the limit on some Autobahns to 100km/h in one of this summer's heatwaves (38C). https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-26/blazing-heatwave-forces-germany-to-lower-autobahn-speed-limit

[Adamastor]

Furthermore, the volume of airline traffic in Europe is mind boggling compared to Australia yet they seem to run things with no fuss

Delays in Europe are through the roof. Enroute traffic delays grew by 105% in a single year last year - https://www.economist.com/international/2019/06/15/air-traffic-control-is-a-mess

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x697/europe_delays_0a3fd16414f0758ce0ee66b6dae1f09bb0100c8c.png

This appears to be the world we live in now - bold assertions from people without a clue.

[markis10]

Sitting in the lounge at Changi watching aircraft land approximately every 1.5 minutes. Do we match or better that frequency in Australia?

Bit of a “how long is a piece of string question”. At face value in the context of Sydney, we beat it, but of course it depends on time of day, weather etc. Sydney averages 37 arrivals in the morning rush hours, and did go as high as 48 on day.

[limelight]

Sunfish,

Sydney and Melbourne could keep their current runways, and would not require any new ones if there was a fast train service between the two cities. If the train could do it in three hours, then number of flights would reduce dramatically. see http://www.traveller.com.au/worlds-busiest-airline-flight-routes-melbournesydney-now-worlds-second-busiest-h0e7ha

Think outside the square. (http://www.traveller.com.au/worlds-busiest-airline-flight-routes-melbournesydney-now-worlds-second-busiest-h0e7ha)

[Global Aviator]

:O High speed trains... Australia... :O

Can not even get local trains to the airport...

Send the pollies for some China and Japan rail trips, now that’s efficiency (yes also huge population)...

Next, even if it was yes to trains tomorrow what about the purple speckled leaf eating grasshopper that’s habitat is in the rail corridor? Construction... actually Wagners!!!

Now back to traffic separation... cleared to land!

[LeadSled]

Sunfish,

Sydney and Melbourne could keep their current runways, and would not require any new ones if there was a fast train service between the two cities. If the train could do it in three hours, then number of flights would reduce dramatically.

Limelight,
Think "outside the square" --- and do some serious costing.
The assumption always is that the un-subsidized cost per passenger seat km. is automatically cheaper by train.
This is simply not so, and given the distances between Australia's few population centers, sadly for HS rail, airlines are devastatingly competitive.
Remember, HS rail has NOT destroyed aviation services within China or Japan, or, for that matter, Europe.
And, folks, the good (or bad, depending on your point of view) news is that rapidly rising electricity prices in Australia, due to ratbag energy policies, makes HS rail even more un-competitive.
Tootle pip!!

[Another Number]

HS rail - no chance while every politician is treated to the Chairman's Club!

(At leat one positive of that arrangement - us in WA won't have to pay yet more tens of billions for yet more of your East Coast infrastructure...)

[Lookleft]

Just for the record LS I agree with you on that one. Great idea but noone has deep enough pockets.

[Global Aviator]

Have you seen the prices of high speed rail tickets in Japan, China, Europe?

Just like airfares some are cheap but most are not, the more comfort the more expensive.

From memory Japan one of the highest, that certainly hasn’t stopped the rise of the Peach or Orange Star.

[LeadSled]

HS rail - no chance while every politician is treated to the Chairman's Club!
...)
Another Number,
A cynical statement, feel good now??
Whether you believe it or not, the economics of HS rail in Australia simply does not add up
One bright idea to "balance the books" is/was to raise a land tax on the basis that HS passenger rail access would increase inter-urban land values, along the rail corridor, payable as a subsidy.
As I said a while back, the problem with HS rail in Australia is the devastatingly competitive real world cost of air transport..
AND---- taking a total (as opposed to cheery picked) environmental picture, air transport brushed up pretty well environmentally.
Tootle pip!!

[Another Number]

Another Number,
A cynical statement, feel good now??
Whether you believe it or not, the economics of HS rail in Australia simply does not add up
One bright idea to "balance the books" is/was to raise a land tax on the basis that HS passenger rail access would increase inter-urban land values, along the rail corridor, payable as a subsidy.
As I said a while back, the problem with HS rail in Australia is the devastatingly competitive real world cost of air transport..
AND---- taking a total (as opposed to cheery picked) environmental picture, air transport brushed up pretty well environmentally.
Tootle pip!!

Feel good? Not really!

I wasn't even implying HS rail was a good idea in Oz, let alone suggesting it. (Nuclear power is also nice, but wouldn't recommend it here these days, either).

However, sensible economics doesn't prevent costly schemes as much as a bit of opposition gentle nudge in the Club.

If our politicians spent sensibly, we wouldn't be wasting $40 billion or so on Pyne subs (not to mention JWH JSFs, etc...)

[777Nine]

Another Number,
A cynical statement, feel good now??
Whether you believe it or not, the economics of HS rail in Australia simply does not add up
One bright idea to "balance the books" is/was to raise a land tax on the basis that HS passenger rail access would increase inter-urban land values, along the rail corridor, payable as a subsidy.
As I said a while back, the problem with HS rail in Australia is the devastatingly competitive real world cost of air transport..
AND---- taking a total (as opposed to cheery picked) environmental picture, air transport brushed up pretty well environmentally.
Tootle pip!!

I for one would catch a high speed train if it was 4hours from Sydney to Melbourne. But it would probably cost $500 one way to pay for the damn thing.

Unless we had more population which could justify the cost and the usage, I totally agree with you; it ain't worth it so the airlines needn't be worried.

[Sunfish]

But on a volume for volume basis? How much traffic do they have compared to us?