QANTAS 2011 grounding about to be revisited? [Archive]

What The

23rd Jul 2019, 00:41

Given the recent statement made by the head of the ALAEA on this website that PÍA is a possibility with the Engineers EBA negotiations and the distinct possibility that Qantas Pilots will again be forced into PÍA in order to pursue improvements in workplace conditions are we about to see 2011 revisited?

Given that Alan Joyce has been paid the following over 10 years is he really so concerned with the salaries of his technical staff that he is prepared once again to go to war?

2018 10,869,000
2017 24,584,000
2016 12,960,000
2015 11,884,000
2014 2,009,000
2013 3,331,000
2012 2,280,000
2011 4,071,000
2010 2,924,000
2009 3,664,000
* * *$78,576,000***

Alan, I will give you a tip. Your inability to engage with your operational employees in any meaningful way is costing the company a fortune. Your petty squabbles over small sums (compared to your salary) means that you have lost the big picture of the cost of a disengaged workforce.

Your employees don’t wish to fight with you, they just want their fair share of the spoils having taken numerous pay freeze hits when times were tough. Given what happened to your salary in 15/16 when the last of the pay freezes was implemented is it any wonder that the troops are staging a revolt.

They are not stupid and they are not blind. What they are are decent hardworking people who keep the show on the road whilst you are tucked up in a warm bed.

Your $2500 bribe was seen as an enormous slap in the face which lost a lot of goodwill in an instant. If you don’t believe me run a real engagement survey. You know, one where you don’t just record the answers about how I get on with my workmates. The reason that answer is always improving, by the way, is because the operations staff are all growing closer as a result of your actions to marginalize them.

Think about that. As the CEO your inability to engage with your workforce has resulted in your workforce engaging against you. If that is the legacy you hoped to leave then great. If not then I am sorry but that is what you will be remembered for by those who are left after this company has been sold out from underneath them.

The major shareholders must be very happy having recouped their original investments through the share buybacks and dividend distributions that have taken place over the last few years. Unfortunately for the next CEO the fleet renewal vacuum will place a major strain on capital and borrowings and may well cripple the business. As there is nothing left to sell, and the likelihood of a share placement at current prices is highly unlikely at best the inability to raise capital will mean that once again the employees will be asked to sacrifice to “save the business from terminal decline”.

Sound familiar?

The only difference this time is that you and your consultants will have ridden off into the sunset with your millions and have nothing to lose.

Engage meaningfully with your workforce Alan, for all our sakes.

ROH111

23rd Jul 2019, 01:17

He doesn’t read pprune.

He won’t lock out the airline again.

He he doesn’t care about anyone else, hence why he is in the position that he is in.

Rinse and repeat with this guy, just do you job and go home, like the short haul EBA... or the long haul EBA or even the engineers, we all live in a country people fight and die to come to, working in some of the best conditions and terms available in the world, earning in the top 20% to top 5% in the country.

At some point, you gotta look inside and find happiness. Chasing tails here, yelling from below, won’t do anything.

Manwell

23rd Jul 2019, 01:24

Well said What The. Here's the problem in a nutshell. Joyce was given the job of destroying QANTAS after Rod Eddington initiated the decline by merging Australian with the airline to fatten it for sale. That ensured it's safety record would eventually crumble, and Joyce has simply continued the demoralization and degradation of a once strong company. In simple language, they are both traitors to the airline and staff. Cabin Crew played a large role in the demoralization and degradation of the company, first by management allowing hosties to stay past their use by date, then by allowing too many jobs for friends, family, sex, or sexual preference, rather than on merit. The same is true of aircrew, many of whom are Captain's kids, commonly called Seagulls, because you have to throw rocks at them to make them fly. If the employees want to save the company it would require a Herculean effort from all concerned. Best of luck.

Rated De

23rd Jul 2019, 01:28

The optics of a grounding and lockout are horrible.

The 2011 narrative was established well before the events of 29 October 2011.
Qantas International without any forewarning was declared "terminal".
With the Fair Work Act yet to be tested the narrative was established, coinciding with three big employee groups "negotiating"

The Qantas International "transformed" narrative served the self-interest well.

Pretty difficult to de-transform the airline again.

Downside risk is way too high, he is a one trick pony, but the narrative would not support even a cursory examination of the Little Napoleon's exclamations.

Just like in the Wizard of Oz, he is a little man behind a curtain (or screen of personal security) making idle threats.

Time is on the employee's side.

Going Boeing

23rd Jul 2019, 01:51

The official figures given by QF management is that the shutdown cost $190M plus $62M in legal costs - everyone suspects that these figures understate the costs significantly. As Joyce was given very little of what he asked for by FWA, I can't see him being stupid enough to go down that path again.

Manwell, I think your memory is failing - Rod Eddington was the CEO of Ansett, not Australian (James Strong) and 100% of his salary was paid by News Corp, no wonder he didn't look after Air NZ's interests. The Federal government wanted to sell Australian due to its precarious financial position following the Domestic Pilots Dispute in 1989 and wanted $400M for it. SQ was the only other serious potential buyer an, after due dilligence, they offered $125M which was probably a fair price considering the level of debt. As QF was still government owned, strings were pulled to have QF buy TN for the full $400M that the government wanted and it gave QF the domestic capacity that they wanted. Prior to this, QF & AN had a commercial agreement to put passengers on each others services - the loss of this on-carriage hurt AN significantly when TN was purchased. Apologies for the thread drift.

dragon man

23rd Jul 2019, 03:06

neville_nobody

23rd Jul 2019, 03:12

The official figures given by QF management is that the shutdown cost $190M plus $62M in legal costs - everyone suspects that these figures understate the costs significantly. As Joyce was given very little of what he asked for by FWA, I can't see him being stupid enough to go down that path again.

Common sense would suggest you are probably right. However Joyce was hailed by the Business Community and the Liberal Party as a hero and it certainly pushed up his social capital within those ranks despite it being an overwhelming loss for Joyce. The narrative was that he had courageously taken on the Unions and won. He also managed to gain the help of the Labor Party in doing so. Whether this perceived victory has embolden him to try it again we are yet to see, however I would agree that the smart money will be on never trying something so stupid ever again. However the real issue for the Pilots (Just like 1989) is that the shutdown was never about money.

Street garbage

23rd Jul 2019, 03:48

What The, very well said, the disconnect between Coward Street (how appropriate) and Operational Staff continues to widen. Remember 2008 and the almost buyout? Remember 2011? I am sure those who are basket weaving or lining up in the Street for their 6th coffee for the day don't...

hawk_eye

23rd Jul 2019, 04:22

Common sense would suggest you are probably right. However Joyce was hailed by the Business Community and the Liberal Party as a hero and it certainly pushed up his social capital within those ranks despite it being an overwhelming loss for Joyce. The narrative was that he had courageously taken on the Unions and won. He also managed to gain the help of the Labor Party in doing so. Whether this perceived victory has embolden him to try it again we are yet to see, however I would agree that the smart money will be on never trying something so stupid ever again. However the real issue for the Pilots (Just like 1989) is that the shutdown was never about money.

That’s a pretty accurate post. And the last sentence sums it up nicely - it was never about money. It was about control of the Industrial agenda - control that worked for close to 8 years with very little industrial rumblings coming to the forefront at QF.

However - the next 12 months should be more interesting. Pilots should be encouraged by the PIA conducted at Tiger. The pilots went on strike (the importance of which cannot be understated - the first strike action by pilots since ‘89) and got significant improvements to their EA because they were willing to ‘walk the walk’.

Now I admit that dealing with QF IR would be significantly more difficult than VA IR, however the fundamentals don’t change - the pilot groups have to be willing to do more than just bang fists on the table.

Given the significant earning of the CEO (and Executive management) and the fact the Company is making profits in the billions, it is not unrealistic to reject the arbitrary 3% QF group wage policy. However - it takes the pilot group to be willing to take some action.

Whilst it is not legal to conduct pattern bargaining in Australia - there is nothing stopping the four pilot groups (Eastern, Sunstate, JQ and QF SH - all with open EAs) to all reject the QF wage policy. If all pilot groups were willing to reject the policy and then take some action (it does not even necessarily mean stop work action) I would suggest that the QF policy may become a little more flexible than what it currently is.

It’s good to be cautious when thinking about taking industrial action - but as shown at TT, the world does not fall in when you do. Industrial relations law has changed significantly from ‘89, and I would be very confident that another lockout at QF is a significantly low risk.

So the two key things that are required of the pilots now - the willingness to ‘push back’ a little against QF management and their IR team, and some solidarity to be able to stick together.

I wish all pilots and engineers working in the QF group all the very best over the course of these ongoing negotiations.

ConfigFull

23rd Jul 2019, 04:51

Whilst it is not legal to conduct pattern bargaining in Australia - there is nothing stopping the four pilot groups (Eastern, Sunstate, JQ and QF SH - all with open EAs) to all reject the QF wage policy. If all pilot groups were willing to reject the policy and then take some action (it does not even necessarily mean stop work action) I would suggest that the QF policy may become a little more flexible than what it currently is.

Hallelujah. The fuel bill for the group last FY was $3.232B - how much can we add to that? 5%? 10%?? Easiest PIA ever - no pax inconvenienced.

a_pilot

23rd Jul 2019, 06:07

The fuel bill for the group last FY was $3.232B - how much can we add to that? 5%? 10%?? Easiest PIA ever - no pax inconvenienced

Most pilots these days burn an extra 5% anyway (fly fast and get home sooner) or could easily save 5% if they wanted to but they just couldn't care anymore.

There is just no incentive to do the right the thing, and no recognition or reward either.

I wonder if management realise this, or they probably do but they don't care and it is all accounted for anyway.

Maybe the think the price to pay to keep pilots happy (positively engaged) is not worth the fuel savings.

Maybe they don't want pilots to think that fuel burn actually hurts them and that it can give them some power.

Maybe try burning at least an extra 10% ?

ConfigFull

23rd Jul 2019, 06:20

Most pilots these days burn an extra 5% anyway (fly fast and get home sooner) or could easily save 5% if they wanted to but they just couldn't care anymore.

There is just no incentive to do the right the thing, and no recognition or reward either.

I wonder if management realise this, or they probably do but they don't care and it is all accounted for anyway.

Maybe the think the price to pay to keep pilots happy (positively engaged) is not worth the fuel savings.

Maybe they don't want pilots to think that fuel burn actually hurts them and that it can give them some power.

I'd say they can't enter it into a spreadsheet so they have no idea. Just to make sure - how about we all depart 16 minutes late and make it up enroute, using the extra 5-10% we ordered (a TEMPO is about 5-7% on what I fly)...

Berealgetreal

23rd Jul 2019, 07:33

From the outside it’s interesting to contemplate QF, JQ and Engineers all doing EBA at the same time. Could get interesting for Alan. Can control the Australian representative Rugby Union selection but can he control 2000 pilots at once?

the importance of which cannot be understated - the first strike action by pilots since ‘89

I think Tiger did PIA on the last EBA as well.

Configfull is on the money. 16 minutes late is the achillies heel. Connected to bonuses this one gets attention much quicker than fuel ever would, even though fuel is MUCH more expensive!

This could get very interesting!

73qanda

23rd Jul 2019, 08:13

What is the relevance of 16 minutes?

Berealgetreal

23rd Jul 2019, 08:21

What is the relevance of 16 minutes?

I think it’s 15 actually but it’s the point when a delay is made part of the BITRE OTP stats that get published it’s also connected to Executives KPI’s.

14 minutes late no delay recorded, 15 or 16 (not sure which one) delay recorded. You could burn fuel all day long but this one really gets people paying attention.

Wing Root

23rd Jul 2019, 08:24

16 minutes late is considered late for on time performance statistics and therefore the management KPIs tied to it.

A flight arrival is counted as “on time” if it arrived at the gate before 15 minutes after the scheduled arrival time shown in the carriers' schedule.

Domestic On Time Performance (https://www.bitre.gov.au/statistics/aviation/otphome.aspx)

Rated De

23rd Jul 2019, 08:47

KPI metrics are chosen and implemented at executive level.
They will simply change the metric.

It begins at the individual level.
Get creative and as others have mentioned, many of the group pilots are out of contract.
Secondary boycott provisions being what they are, it must be lead by individuals.
Contract compliance is a two way street.

How many pilots accept updates to their company device in their own time?
How many sign on early and commence reading NOTAMS?
How many carry a telephone?
How many use that personal telephone to provide a very convenient point of contact for the company? "Managers" have company provided phones.
How many pilots extend a tour of duty? How many pilots actually understand that the risk for an accident outside TOD limits rest with the individual?
Defect management is a rich field. The engineers are a big help.
How many pilots actually consider that "Fitness to fly" is an all encompassing and subjective phrase?
How many pilots continue when fatigued?
How many pilots "volunteer" to work on days off?

The CAO and CAR empower pilots.
Airline management spend an inordinate amount of time convincing pilots that the company manuals, the contract and management matter more than statute. They do not. The regulations empower and punish pilots, pilots are accountable to the regulator first. Comply with regulations for fuel, duty, rest, fatigue and even maintenance and get creative.

Make them count what they assume is a given and they notice.

Tiger pilots did it, British Airways pilots are doing it, what is missing at the moment is guidance from the "representatives" and indeed action at the individual level.

www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/british-airways-pilots-strike-flights-latest-airline-cancelled-union-balpa-a9015001.html

Blitzkrieger

23rd Jul 2019, 09:04

They may only be a small group of some 200 pilots but they took it to QF via Cobham and won BIG! PIA didn’t even reach full maturity but it was so concerning to QF that the EB was pushed through at seemingly any cost. Ask any 717 pilot what their salary looks like these days and you’d be surprised what they achieved.

Bug Smasher Smasher

23rd Jul 2019, 09:56

From the outside it’s interesting to contemplate QF, JQ and Engineers all doing EBA at the same time.
This could get very interesting!
You’re not wrong!! Hopefully the chickens of his atrocious management style are coming home to roost.

VHFRT

23rd Jul 2019, 14:02

How many pilots "volunteer" to work on days off?

My airline literally could not crew all scheduled flights if people stopped doing this... but it’s become something that most are actually quite “proud” of. We even get condescending messages from crewing at 5am stating “Who wants a MEL return?! Call now to claim the $$”.

I’d hope the more learned QF crews haven’t fallen into this trap.

Rated De

24th Jul 2019, 04:55

Given the significant earning of the CEO (and Executive management) and the fact the Company is making profits in the billions, it is not unrealistic to reject the arbitrary 3% QF group wage policy. However - it takes the pilot group to be willing to take some action.

It starts at the individual level.
The "representatives" must reflect the discontent, however it appears that the "representatives" would prefer to follow the goat path to management.
With the former AIPA President sitting opposite those he once purported to represent, as a handsomely rewarded IR negotiator, the smart money is on the "senior union representatives" busily amending their Curriculum Vitae hoping to tread the path to management.

Berealgetreal

24th Jul 2019, 10:29

Geez that’s not good.

Angle of Attack

24th Jul 2019, 10:37

The QF SHEA is about to be smashed down at at least 90/10 Voting NO, let’s discuss after the event, that will be in several weeks time.

dragon man

24th Jul 2019, 10:47

The QF SHEA is about to be smashed down at at least 90/10 Voting NO, let’s discuss after the event, that will be in several weeks time.

I so hope you are correct, would make this Dragon very very happy 😃😃

Beer Baron

24th Jul 2019, 11:28

It starts at the individual level.
The "representatives" must reflect the discontent, however it appears that the "representatives" would prefer to follow the goat path to management.
With the former AIPA President sitting opposite those he once purported to represent, as a handsomely rewarded IR negotiator, the smart money is on the "senior union representatives" busily amending their Curriculum Vitae hoping to tread the path to management.
Seriously Rated De, you are a cheap gutter troll. You trot out your big words and pretend to be an expert on everything but you are not a professional pilot, you don’t work for Qantas, you are not a member of AIPA, you don’t know the members of the COM, you don’t know the Executive and you don’t know the negotiators. You are an internet troll, criticising all behind the cover of anonymity.

The AIPA members you criticise work hundreds of hours (predominantly) for no monetary reward. They do it to advance the conditions of their colleagues. It is an infinitely more noble pursuit than that of an internet troll who only seeks to disparage those whom they do not know.

The most important factor for pilots if PIA becomes a necessary path is Unity. We all must stick together to back our colleagues to achieve a fair outcome. Unity is not achieved by denigrating the union office bearers who will be the ones to call for such action if/when the time comes. Attacks that are not based on facts but only sew distrust and division. You wouldn’t know the individuals if you saw them in a terminal, you’ve never shared a flight deck with them and you know nothing of their plans for the EA or beyond.

Ironically, the biggest beneficiary of your gutless, ill informed attacks on the AIPA exec is the one person you troll more than all else, Alan Joyce (or Little Napoleon as you childishly call him). So well done on that own goal.

Jetstarpilot

24th Jul 2019, 12:10

It’s “Sow” not Sew.... ✍️:ugh:

ScepticalOptomist

24th Jul 2019, 21:28

It’s “Sow” not Sew.... ✍️:ugh:

In the age of mobile devices being the most common computing device with their tiny keys and aggressive autocorrect, who really gives a flying f$&k.

Was his message lost because of one spelling error?

Numpty.

Chris2303

24th Jul 2019, 21:36

Seriously Rated De, you are a cheap gutter troll.

I am surprised this took so long

gordonfvckingramsay

25th Jul 2019, 04:27

Beer Baron, are you suggesting that union reps have not crossed the table?

ExtraShot

25th Jul 2019, 05:44

Alan Joyce (or Little Napoleon as you childishly call him

Perhaps an appropriate nickname if some of the rumored displays of ruling with an Iron Fist and volatile temperament are true?

Maybe not a bad thing to be in business either, especially in Australia where we tend to celebrate crushing the ‘little guy’ (figuratively speaking of course). He is probably onto something, it’s made him a very rich man.

Beer Baron

25th Jul 2019, 06:15

Beer Baron, are you suggesting that union reps have not crossed the table?
No I am not.
I am not speaking in defence of the handful of AIPA exec members over the years who have made that decision. But at anytime there are 40 pilots on COM, 8 in the Executive and the people in those positions change every few years. The pilots who have crossed the table are in the extreme minority. How many have done so in the last decade? I can think of 2 off the top of my head.

To attack the integrity of all the incumbent office bearers because of the actions of a few over previous years is grossly unfair, unjustified and damaging to the ultimate goal of unifying pilots to protect and improve our working conditions.

V-Jet

25th Jul 2019, 11:39

but you are not a professional pilot, you don’t work for Qantas, you are not a member of AIPA, you don’t know the members of the COM, you don’t know the Executive and you don’t know the negotiators.

Makes him the perfect balanced sample and far more eligible to comment than any of us with multiple axes to grind, methinks..... More of it, I say. Or does anyone here think Qantas is properly fleeted up for the future?

Group think is dangerous. Alternate views should be taken on board and at the very least, considered as valid for discussion. Outsiders frequently see far more than those personally involved. Which bankers saw the banking crisis around the corner?

SandyPalms

25th Jul 2019, 11:51

Makes him the perfect balanced sample and far more eligible to comment than any of us with multiple axes to grind, methinks..... More of it, I say. Or does anyone here think Qantas is properly fleeted up for the future?

Group think is dangerous. Alternate views should be taken on board and at the very least, considered as valid. Outsiders frequently see far more than those personally involved. Which bankers saw the banking crisis around the corner?

Really? Do you want to here my opinion on the Pies?

Rates De can only be spouting rubbish fed to him through people with an axe to grind. Let's be serious here. This person is an uninformed trouble maker. Fed **** from the likes of GD and PM. If in fact he isn't IW. We've heard all this crap before. I've been in the meetings.
Qantas needs a new fleet, yes. But that is what is happening. To deny that is just ridiculous. Get a grip and stop throwing stones at volunteers. You're an embarasment, the lot of you.

V-Jet

25th Jul 2019, 11:55

I like pies, but I’d rather hear it:) Are your favourites best with BBQ, Steak, horseradish or tomato?

V-Jet

25th Jul 2019, 12:15

Qantas needs a new fleet, yes. But that is what is happening. To deny that is just ridiculous.

Ahhh! A glass Half full man/woman/LGBTIQXXXXXX (hope I didn’t leave any out:))

Is the collective noun for 14 aircraft a fleet? Don’t some actors own more? Would any EK/BA/LH/SK members care to comment?

SandyPalms

25th Jul 2019, 12:30

Ok gents (or ladies or whatever V-jet is) can you tell me, and I mean really tell me, what is it that you need QF to do to satisfy you? Because frankly, I don't get it (I know your gonna tell me how I really don't get it blah blah). This rubbish has appeared on this site for years.

Does anybody actually understand what Rated De and his sympathisers are actually talking about?
Other than the cheap shots, of course.

Apologies if I've spelled something wrong. I know how much more important that is to some professional pilots in this country.

embarasment is an understatement.

V-Jet

25th Jul 2019, 16:51

I think I could summarise it this way: For anyone in Qf management to work in and for, the best long term nterests of Qantas, and not treat the organisation as a piggy bank to extract as much cash for personal gain as they can.

That would be a VERY good start.

josephfeatherweight

25th Jul 2019, 17:08

Apologies if I've spelled something wrong. I know how much more important that is to some professional pilots in this country.

embarasment is an understatement.

You misspelt “Embarrassment”.
(Relax, TIC)

Rated De

25th Jul 2019, 19:00

Currently, your former union President sits opposite your current "representatives", representing IR.
That former Union President, and we heard it all before from believers, was openly stating he was not involved in Industrial Relations. He most certainly was and to this minute is tasked with undermining existing terms and conditions.
The former Union President, became the Chief Pilot, not strictly industrial.
Doesn't a former Union senior executive, continue after his remunerated career in Qantas, work for IR?
Wasn't a current negotiator "awarded" a training position whilst actually conducting negotiations?

Perhaps, as it works in the professional world, simple terms are inserted in agreements, that require an exclusivity (non-compete) clause, for a period of years after serving in any executive capacity are introduced?
The absence of any such agreement, when all around the professional world their purpose is to try to protect sensitive information from changing sides, is interesting.

As for their fleet, wander through almost any international airport and observe fleet, not Qantas but competitor airlines, the "project" has already been decided, funded and implemented.

Which is precisely why their fuel included CASK is close to the upper bound of competitor airlines, and why Roger Montgomery assessed a CAPEX required of AUD $1.7 billion to keep the fleet age (JQ excluded) where it is. Fleet age is at the upper bound of competitor airlines.

help me jebus

21st Aug 2019, 21:00

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49421426Ryanair loses court battle to block UK pilot strike
Seems it's in the air..

AerialPerspective

21st Aug 2019, 22:47

AerialPerspective

21st Aug 2019, 22:59

In the age of mobile devices being the most common computing device with their tiny keys and aggressive autocorrect, who really gives a flying f$&k.

Was his message lost because of one spelling error?

Numpty.

In terms of world peace it probably doesn't matter but it is important and the ability to communicate is rapidly declining due to weasel words and other phenomena creeping into the language... using verbs as nouns, etc. We once used to have rain... now it seems it can't be rain without being a 'rain event'. This ridiculous language has detracted from the subtleties of English such as basic spelling. One hopes you don't have the same attitude to communicating critical operational information... "Oh, who gives a flying ------ was the message lost because I said 57,000 kg of fuel instead of 75,000 kg..."
It may seem petty and we all make minor mistakes like this but it should not just be dismissed out of hand - besides, I did not detect any hint of sarcasm in the person that offered the correction, your response however...

harrryw

22nd Aug 2019, 05:20

Spellling generally has little affect on understanding and in fact varies between regions. Other constructions however can be a problem. Does; "I give a XXXX ! mean the same as ; "I do not give a XXXX ! '' ?

ScepticalOptomist

22nd Aug 2019, 08:36

In terms of world peace it probably doesn't matter but it is important and the ability to communicate is rapidly declining due to weasel words and other phenomena creeping into the language... using verbs as nouns, etc. We once used to have rain... now it seems it can't be rain without being a 'rain event'. This ridiculous language has detracted from the subtleties of English such as basic spelling. One hopes you don't have the same attitude to communicating critical operational information... "Oh, who gives a flying ------ was the message lost because I said 57,000 kg of fuel instead of 75,000 kg..."
It may seem petty and we all make minor mistakes like this but it should not just be dismissed out of hand - besides, I did not detect any hint of sarcasm in the person that offered the correction, your response however...

I agree with you - we are losing our ability to communicate effectively with the introduction of all the weasel words and puff language.

More frustrating is when someone jumps all over you for minor spelling errors which do not detract from the message. The intended message is ignored in favour of calling out a spelling or grammatical error. That makes them a numpty.

Your example of 57,000 vs 75,000 isn’t even close to the example I responded to. More like someone writing 57 ton instead of tonne - most would figure out what was meant without “calling them out”.

arkmark

28th Aug 2019, 04:35

The only people Alan Joyce hates more than his staff, are his passengers.

Global Aviator

28th Aug 2019, 05:26

The only people Alan Joyce hates more than his staff, are his passengers.

Answers like that show you how out of touch with any form of management you really are.

What The

28th Aug 2019, 05:40

Yep, he definitely hates his staff more than his passengers.

Street garbage

28th Aug 2019, 05:45

Answers like that show you how out of touch with any form of management you really are.
Your defence of QF management just shows how out of touch you- and all your cubicle mates- are from QF Operational staff. Take the log out of your own eye Angel.

Global Aviator

28th Aug 2019, 05:50

Street garbage

28th Aug 2019, 06:03

I am not QF, far from it. I am an Aussie though, that’s the closest I’ll ever get.

To say an airline CEO hates passengers is flat out moronic.

Believe whatever you want but there has to be a line of sensibility.

Well, I'll put it this way- if QF Management chose to engage their front-line (Groundstaff/ Engineering/ Cabin Crew/ Pilots) workforce, make it a "positive" work environment- would that translate to more "customer" satisfaction, higher NPS scores, better OTP?? Qantas only succeeds because of 1) it's basically a monopoly Domestically and 2) A lot of staff keep the operation on the rails, going above and beyond, despite how management treats us.
To say the way QF management treats its' staff has no impact on Customer satisfaction is naive at best.

73to91

28th Aug 2019, 06:33

C441

28th Aug 2019, 07:04

When staff of any customer service business are treated as adversaries, they will often respond to the customer in a similar manner.

As I've suggested before; Qantas staff are incredibly loyal to the brand, not so much to the executive. :rolleyes:
Imagine if they were…..

dr dre

28th Aug 2019, 10:06

Ah the old Richard Branson quote comes to mind here.“Clients do not come first. Employees come first. If you take care of your employees, they will take care of the clients.”Something missed by many in management, in many different industries.

I don’t know how much Richard’s philosophy has rubbed off on the Australian offshoot of his brand, but as of today clients certaintly aren’t taking care of that business.

AerialPerspective

28th Aug 2019, 10:51

Ah the old Richard Branson quote comes to mind here.“Clients do not come first. Employees come first. If you take care of your employees, they will take care of the clients.”Something missed by many in management, in many different industries.

Except that it's nowhere in evidence in ANY of his local businesses... none at all. Pretty sure also that he did not coin the phrase.

AerialPerspective

28th Aug 2019, 11:00

I agree with you - we are losing our ability to communicate effectively with the introduction of all the weasel words and puff language.

More frustrating is when someone jumps all over you for minor spelling errors which do not detract from the message. The intended message is ignored in favour of calling out a spelling or grammatical error. That makes them a numpty.

Your example of 57,000 vs 75,000 isn’t even close to the example I responded to. More like someone writing 57 ton instead of tonne - most would figure out what was meant without “calling them out”.

Or a numpty could also be someone who carries it on for multiple posts. Seriously, I thought your overreaction was worthy of a reply and TBH it was half tongue in cheek. But go on, please, keep posting to win your little victory. I've since ceased to care quite frankly... You're the one that overreacted to what was a four word correction - there was no malice in that correction, you don't know the tone of it because it was in writing. Move on.

Global Aviator

28th Aug 2019, 11:40

Well, I'll put it this way- if QF Management chose to engage their front-line (Groundstaff/ Engineering/ Cabin Crew/ Pilots) workforce, make it a "positive" work environment- would that translate to more "customer" satisfaction, higher NPS scores, better OTP?? Qantas only succeeds because of 1) it's basically a monopoly Domestically and 2) A lot of staff keep the operation on the rails, going above and beyond, despite how management treats us.
To say the way QF management treats its' staff has no impact on Customer satisfaction is naive at best.

Yep I’ll certainly pay that.

I still think that it’s a silly statement though saying the CEO doesn’t care about customers...

Perception is an amazing thing... What does Joe public think? Not the minority of us in the industry.

ScepticalOptomist

28th Aug 2019, 11:51

Or a numpty could also be someone who carries it on for multiple posts. Seriously, I thought your overreaction was worthy of a reply and TBH it was half tongue in cheek. But go on, please, keep posting to win your little victory. I've since ceased to care quite frankly... You're the one that overreacted to what was a four word correction - there was no malice in that correction, you don't know the tone of it because it was in writing. Move on.

I agree. I’ve moved on. Sometimes a rant is a rant and when looked at again is fairly pointless.

AerialPerspective

28th Aug 2019, 12:59

I agree. I’ve moved on. Sometimes a rant is a rant and when looked at again is fairly pointless.

Agreed. Lot's more interesting stuff to discuss.

Street garbage

29th Aug 2019, 06:08

Yep I’ll certainly pay that.

I still think that it’s a silly statement though saying the CEO doesn’t care about customers...

Perception is an amazing thing... What does Joe public think? Not the minority of us in the industry.
The general public thinks they are doing an AMAZING job, and so do those on the Street, mainly because of their social profile.

JamieMaree

29th Aug 2019, 08:08

The general public thinks they are doing an AMAZING job, and so do those on the Street, mainly because of their social profile.

As they say in sport, look at the scoreboard. That is because hey are doing a reasonable job, in the opinion of the shareholders and customers.
You take every opportunity to whinge and complain about Qantas.
Look at the other thread re Virgin. The consecutive losses, the unhappiness etc etc.
There is one person who can fix your unhappiness: you. Go somewhere where you would be happy. There is no other sheltered workshop that would have you.
At least at Qantas, the business is profitable, nearly all of the time. That is what guarantees you get paid on time.

Fliegenmong

29th Aug 2019, 10:17

Not that it has hurt QF at all, but since that little 2011 dummy spit, that occured out of pure spur of the moment thinking one Saturday morning apparently, (nothing to do with people placed around the globe and ready to deal with it)...I have not flown 'The Rat' since...perfectly unbeleivable...but easy to sell to a dumb public and a 'gummint'more concerned about chairmans club access....utter BS....and I do not miss QF at all!

(OK, yes of course a few code shares have had unavoidable trips on QF metal...and the staff have been great.... :) )

Street garbage

30th Aug 2019, 04:29

As they say in sport, look at the scoreboard. That is because hey are doing a reasonable job, in the opinion of the shareholders and customers.
You take every opportunity to whinge and complain about Qantas.
Look at the other thread re Virgin. The consecutive losses, the unhappiness etc etc.
There is one person who can fix your unhappiness: you. Go somewhere where you would be happy. There is no other sheltered workshop that would have you.
At least at Qantas, the business is profitable, nearly all of the time. That is what guarantees you get paid on time.
..And there in lies the problem..were you here in 2014? $ 2.6 billion loss? Terminal Decline? The last couple of years of years of profitability may cover that..
Were you here in 2011? As Fliegenmong said, waking up one Saturday morning..and how much did that cost the business? QF Official figures said $213 million, more "independent" analysis say northwards of $290m...
It always such a good sport to come here and lob a few grenades to rat out the Angels lurking in our midst..
The only sheltered workshop in Qf is the Street. One of my associates had one of..you..people on the jumpseat the other day, and they were telling all and sundry how "all the airlines in the world were looking at us" with the introduction of the B787...