BA pilots vote to strike

[JliderPilot]

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49075767

[Dannyboy39]

Ok devils advocate time... in a game of hearts and minds, in what way does 3500 pilots voting for strike action, on average earning £100k+ pa as well as rejecting a 11.5% pay rise, in the peak of the summer season, going to do them or the company any favours?

I totally understand if it’s about conditions and working practices - office staff and engineers and certainly cabin crew across industry have been suffering for 10+ years with people depressing the rate; by their own colleagues as well as the bosses. But if it’s just a numbers game an 11.5% pay bump... that’s hard to comprehend. See the staff of Monarch, Air Berlin, Primera, Wow and other airlines struggling...

[frozenpilot]

Danny boy...

shows how little you know! Don’t believe any headline figures. Do your research, look at Lufthansa, KLM... and the American carriers pay deals before judging. Then understand better how hard and how much BA Pilots have sacrificed in the past ten years. Then consider inflation against this claim of 11.5%... also, look at the rises the CEO has enjoyed recently, as well as a bumper one off dividend for share holders. Only when you see the true picture will you understand how shafted we have been and the true insult this pay offer is.....

oh and please understand any pay deal is based on ‘ unspecified change initiatives.’ Translated to mean - self funded pay rise through harder work.

Play devils advocate.... do your research and look at fact.. not spin!

[WhatTheDeuce]

11.5% is 3.7% per year over the 3 year deal - in the most profitable times the airline has ever encountered.

[frozenpilot]

It’s not even 11.5%... year three the anniversary date is moved to April, making it 10.5%.... Before RPI is factored

[bex88]

From my point of view pay is not the main reason people have voted the way they have. I don’t think the pay deal is unacceptable but just be straight. It’s 4% 3.5% and 3%. I cannot accept the “business changes” without being told what that means. They could offer me 25% and if it means longer hours then I am not interested.

I really hope a compromise is found because I don’t think anyone really wants to strike but I think many are prepared to do so.

[Dannyboy39]

Danny boy...

shows how little you know! Don’t believe any headline figures. Do your research, look at Lufthansa, KLM... and the American carriers pay deals before judging. Then understand better how hard and how much BA Pilots have sacrificed in the past ten years. Then consider inflation against this claim of 11.5%... also, look at the rises the CEO has enjoyed recently, as well as a bumper one off dividend for share holders. Only when you see the true picture will you understand how shafted we have been and the true insult this pay offer is.....

oh and please understand any pay deal is based on ‘ unspecified change initiatives.’ Translated to mean - self funded pay rise through harder work.

Play devils advocate.... do your research and look at fact.. not spin!
You can trade a KLMAF / Lufty pay deal with an easy or a Ryan or any other P2F operator. The point I’m trying to make is that the whole industry is in the same boat as well as looking at it from an outsiders point of view - ie the customers and potential ones. Pilots earning 6 figures rejecting 11.5% over 3 years doesnt look good. How many people have the luxury of turning down such an offer? BALPA do a great job for their members however not everyone has the same protections. Cabin crew in some airlines barely make the living wage. Engineers and office staff longer hours on reduced resources whilst competing against reduced margins from E Europe and other territories.

[MikeAlpha320]

Why doesn't it look good?

We are paid the money we are because of the responsibility we bear. We aren't Cabin crew, engineers or office staff- benchmark us against other pilots please. As for your 'six figures'- how many of us are on that kind of wage? Given the huge amount of recent joiners, I can assure you its not that many.

Public opinion will never be on our side- its how BA want to play it. As a passenger all I care about is the safe operation of the aeroplane. It is not relevant what we earn. We need to be sufficiently rested and motivated to do the job correctly. As posted above- do your research.

[RexBanner]

I cannot accept the “business changes” without being told what that means.


They’ve already told us, Bex. You only have to go back to Klaus’ Q&A a few months back, it’s three day long haul and airport hotels, they’re quite transparent about it. He conceded they’re limited in how they can squeeze more out of SH due to the Night Jet Ban at Heathrow and Long Haul is already efficient. I struggle to see what else they can do unless they’re also eyeing up major changes to aspirational bidding (completely foolish IMHO as it’s the only thing left that attracts people to this place).

(The only thing that will spare us from airport hotels is that half of their business model is preying on and profiteering from the cancellations and times of mass disruption. They can’t really do that if half their rooms are full of aircrew so will probably demand a premium. At least that’s what I’m hoping).

[The Mixmaster]

Public support is absolutely irrelevant and a well known tactic employed by management to try to bend the will of organised labour. Your Colleagues in other airlines are right behind you on this BA Pilots. Wish you all the best!

[richardthethird]

Best of luck with it

[TURIN]

Why doesn't it look good?

We are paid the money we are because of the responsibility we bear. We aren't Cabin crew, engineers or office staff- benchmark us against other pilots please. As for your 'six figures'- how many of us are on that kind of wage? Given the huge amount of recent joiners, I can assure you its not that many.


Funny you should mention bench marking (and resposibility). Engineers within BA have been asking for bench marking for some time. It's no coincidence that in many airlines, UK and abroad, Licenced engineers are paid more than pilots, especially FOs. Except at BA.

Good luck.

[gtseraf]

You can trade a KLMAF / Lufty pay deal with an easy or a Ryan or any other P2F operator. The point I’m trying to make is that the whole industry is in the same boat as well as looking at it from an outsiders point of view - ie the customers and potential ones. Pilots earning 6 figures rejecting 11.5% over 3 years doesnt look good. How many people have the luxury of turning down such an offer? BALPA do a great job for their members however not everyone has the same protections. Cabin crew in some airlines barely make the living wage. Engineers and office staff longer hours on reduced resources whilst competing against reduced margins from E Europe and other territories.

This is where the pilot representative group needs to get hold of a good marketing company and spin their very valid point of view in a way the average person on the street will support. The, in my opinion, obscene packages the CEO's and other top people are earning in corporations is happily accepted by the masses due to the spin these people have sold to the masses.

I say, Good on you BA pilots, it is time pilots stood up for themselves, I really would like to see more of this around the world.

[2unlimited]

You can trade a KLMAF / Lufty pay deal with an easy or a Ryan or any other P2F operator.

Who are the P2F operators? Please elaborate.

[FACoff]

They’ve already told us, Bex. You only have to go back to Klaus’ Q&A a few months back, it’s three day long haul and airport hotels, they’re quite transparent about it. He conceded they’re limited in how they can squeeze more out of SH due to the Night Jet Ban at Heathrow and Long Haul is already efficient. I struggle to see what else they can do unless they’re also eyeing up major changes to aspirational bidding (completely foolish IMHO as it’s the only thing left that attracts people to this place).


Short of increasing the freeze (entirely possible I suppose) I can't see them getting rid of bidding. BA aren't stupid - short haul would become a ghost town. And 3 day west coast in an airport hotel? Who would join PP34 for that?

BA need to take stock and remind themselves why they're still lucky enough to have a (grossly reduced) number of applicants, however suitable. In spite of the pay dispute, it isn't for fast cash.

As Bex says, all the money in the world could not make me work harder than I do at the moment. The idea that we would sign a blank cheque for "unspecified business change", especially for a completely arbitrary and unknown one-off sum, is just hilarious.

Roll on the strike.

[Doug E Style]

That a group of people who, by their nature and training, are conservative, risk-averse and very capable of making considered, rational decisions has decided to make a stand speaks volumes. A management gets the workforce it deserves.

[P06T]

Public support is absolutely irrelevant and a well known tactic employed by management to try to bend the will of organised labour. Your Colleagues in other airlines are right behind you on this BA Pilots. Wish you all the best!

Here here!

[UberPilot]

They’ve already told us, Bex. You only have to go back to Klaus’ Q&A a few months back, it’s three day long haul and airport hotels, they’re quite transparent about it. He conceded they’re limited in how they can squeeze more out of SH due to the Night Jet Ban at Heathrow and Long Haul is already efficient. I struggle to see what else they can do unless they’re also eyeing up major changes to aspirational bidding (completely foolish IMHO as it’s the only thing left that attracts people to this place).

(The only thing that will spare us from airport hotels is that half of their business model is preying on and profiteering from the cancellations and times of mass disruption. They can’t really do that if half their rooms are full of aircrew so will probably demand a premium. At least that’s what I’m hoping).

I fear that you’re hope is in vain! My company uses airport hotels when we visit the sim or have the occasional night stop and I reckon they’re almost all at least a third full of crew. Airlines represent a steady source of guaranteed income more so then the average punter who is staying there before an early flight. Also, the booking is done via a contractor who will just be tasked to find you a hotel for that night - a little bit of disputation does not really bother them.

[Trossie]

Many here say that public support is irrelevant. Public support will be zero. Public opposition will be huge. When the travelling public, who on average earn a fraction of what the striking pilots already earn, have their travel plans seriously disrupted for those pilots to get a pay rise that most of that travelling public could only dream of, the opposition will be huge. Don't expect support from a single newspaper, TV news channel nor radio station. Expect to be vilified by all of them. Don't expect them to listen to your complaints that you should be compared with German, Dutch or American airlines, they won't be interested in that. They will be blaming you for their travel disruption.

[thetimesreader84]

Every newspaper, politician, and man in the street in the U.K. loves the NHS. “Cornerstone of the nation” “what makes Britain Great” “Great dedicated, hardworking staff”

... until the Junior doctors (with good reason) decided that their new contract would be dangerous & a long way below market rate. Then they were absolutely slaughtered by the press (“Putting lives in danger” despite outcomes actually being shown to have improved on the strike days, due to greater availability of consultants who by & large supported the Juniors).

Cognitive Dissonance is not a thing in the media. They will churn out whatever line their masters in the establishment want them to. This strike will be no different.

[Paul Lupp]

I may be a bit out of step with the majority here, but what makes anyone think that they are entitled to an annual pay rise? I've spent most of my working life in UK manufacturing engineering and have lost count of how many years went by without a payrise. If your employer is not making enough money, how do they find more to increase the wages bill? Sure it is annoying when those at the top of the organisation award themselves pay increases or other benefits whilst those doing the actual work get zero, but that's life. Same as the best way out is to find another,better paid job but if you cannot, then so be it, you just have to accept a fall in your standard of living. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer but a strike won't change things.

[wiggy]

If your employer is not making enough money, how do they find more to increase the wages bill?

Good question, especially like the "if".

Go and have a look at BA's annual reports for the last year or two.
Then tell me how much you would regard as being "enough" to increase the wages bill or perhaps provide a meaningful profit share for all staff.

[Hank Moody]

Good luck to all the BA pilots fighting for the rights!!
i have to say there are sooo many trolls on this tread. I wonder if someone has hired them.
arguing with trolls is like, try to learn blind people to see.

[Capewell]

Sure it is annoying when those at the top of the organisation award themselves pay increases or other benefits whilst those doing the actual work get zero, but that's life.

No, that's Neoliberalism... Keep drinking the Kool Aid hombre!

The gap between the highest and the lowest paid in most UK organizations is the biggest its ever been. Only legal collective bargaining can change that.

BA is being fined more for failing to invest in its IT platform than the pilots total pay claim.

[akindofmagic]

Many here say that public support is irrelevant. Public support will be zero. Public opposition will be huge.

That's because it is completely irrelevant, and nobody has yet come up with a convincing reason otherwise.

[Twiglet1]

I'd venture to say most Nigel's aren't really bothered about the % as most of it will go to the taxman. Its down to respect and being acknowledged.
Can someone tell me the last time Aircrew went on strike in the UK?
To get to this stage is pretty bad - a sign of the times

[NoelEvans]

Short of increasing the freeze (entirely possible I suppose) I can't see them getting rid of bidding. BA aren't stupid - short haul would become a ghost town. ...

Roll on the strike.
When I was checking in for a BA short-haul flight some time ago I heard this comment from a fellow passenger in the queue: "BA short-haul is now just EasyJet where the pilots wear caps".

Not quite true as BA sell you "M&S sandwiches", but then EasyJet have a bigger range of UK airports to fly from. As a passenger in 'the regions' I see no need to use BA short-haul. A Dutch airline does quite well for me and they give me a free sandwich and drink.

You guys are probably correct, why bother about public opinion.

[3Greens]

I may be a bit out of step with the majority here, but what makes anyone think that they are entitled to an annual pay rise? I've spent most of my working life in UK manufacturing engineering and have lost count of how many years went by without a payrise. If your employer is not making enough money, how do they find more to increase the wages bill? Sure it is annoying when those at the top of the organisation award themselves pay increases or other benefits whilst those doing the actual work get zero, but that's life. Same as the best way out is to find another,better paid job but if you cannot, then so be it, you just have to accept a fall in your standard of living. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer but a strike won't change things.

why on earth are you posting on a professional pilots rumour site then?

[CW247]

The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer but a strike won't change things

Now there's a sheep for the slaughter if I ever saw one.

[UAV689]

Well done lads. Backing you all the way here.

i dont give 2 hoots what the public or press say.

the press I understand their anti union stance from way back when with the printers strikes, but its amazing too see the public say things like “well i dont get a pay rise so why should you!”

if that person that said that, had a relative or friend that got a rise, they would say well done! But they cannot see how they have been conditioned to be against anyone getting a rise, thereby helping the shareholders drive every wage down.

It would appear the balpa nec has got some metal now, hope we go the way of the RMT!

[pilotchute]

Can someone please explain to me what the impending strike is about?
Is the rise on offer not inline with inflation?
Have you been on a pay freeze and this is too little too late?
Have management been giving themselves and other departments huge payrises but neglecting pilots?

[Right Engine]

If your employer is not making enough money, how do they find more to increase the wages bill?.
This year the company is on target to make £2b profit. When it was loss making in 2009 pilots took a pay and productivity cut of 8%.
This when the loss was only a couple of hundred million.

So by your rules Paul the pilots should be asking for around... shall we say 50%?

[bex88]

pilotchute, I only speak for myself but for me it’s not % or money. Yes I want to see the value of my contract preserved if not improved but it’s about having a life for me. Rostering, workload, duty credit, EASA FTL’s. Rostering minimum rest at home and 6 day blocks followed by only 2 days off. Ops knowingly ignoring agreements in the hope you don’t challenge them. I don’t want more money, I want more time and if I can have more time then i’ll take money to buy myself some time.

[Cripple]

When I was checking in for a BA short-haul flight some time ago I heard this comment from a fellow passenger in the queue: "BA short-haul is now just EasyJet where the pilots wear caps".

Not quite true as BA sell you "M&S sandwiches", but then EasyJet have a bigger range of UK airports to fly from. As a passenger in 'the regions' I see no need to use BA short-haul. A Dutch airline does quite well for me and they give me a free sandwich and drink.

You guys are probably correct, why bother about public opinion.

The decline in the BA short haul product is not the fault of the pilots. I think you will find that every pilot in BA would support spending on improving the customer experience - especially on SH.

Also, you might find that the average earnings of an EZY Captain far exceed those of their BA equivalents.

Which goes some way to explaining the dissatisfaction amongst the BA pilot workforce...

[ETOPS]

pilotchute

Can someone please explain to me what the impending strike is about?

This has been building for over 20 years. In my time at BA we have been constantly told that below inflation pay deals and increases in work rate were essential to "save the company"....

At a regional base I was even offered a pay cut. Alongside all of this a continual cutting of terms and conditions and benefits down to ridiculous minutiae.

As my esteemed colleague Wiggy points out - the company has now been "saved" and billion pound profits are in (and forecast)....

It's payback time.

[Capt Flinstone]

BloodY AwefuLL stays Bloody AwefuLL ! Pray 4 a HArd BREXIT !

[sarmonkey]

The 'public support' line always amazes me. The last time I checked, Tube drivers didn't have huge public support but seemed to do okay with their industrial action. We're employees of a large airline making record profits whilst giving a highly average management massive bonuses on the back of a decade of reductions to our Ts&Cs; why do we need the support of the public to sort out our industrial dispute? It boggles my mind the amount of my colleagues that take that red herring seriously.

[Busdriver01]

The 'public support' line always amazes me. The last time I checked, Tube drivers didn't have huge public support but seemed to do okay with their industrial action. We're employees of a large airline making record profits whilst giving a highly average management massive bonuses on the back of a decade of reductions to our Ts&Cs; why do we need the support of the public to sort out our industrial dispute? It boggles my mind the amount of my colleagues that take that red herring seriously.

I’m so glad I’m not the only one that thinks this! When I was based in France I was constantly told that the snpl were stronger than balpa “because balpa can’t actually do anything”. Tube drivers seem to be on strike an awful lot - and they get away with it every time. About time people realised this!

[eckhard]

The public have a pretty short memory about most strikes.
Ok, we all remember the “Green Goddesses” but does anyone hold any grudges against the Fire Service? BA cabin crew went on strike a few years back but passengers seem to enjoy their service (and also enjoy complaining about it to me at dinner parties!)
While I’m acutely conscious that ‘the public’ pay my wages, I’m not overly concerned about their perception of the rights or wrongs of this strike, if indeed it happens. I don’t expect any sympathy but the more enlightened amongst them will recognise that there must be good reasons for us to have got to this point. BALPA press releases can go a long way to educate people about the historical background and economic realities behind the BA pilots’ frustrations.

[UAV689]

Out of interest, i hear it can be 3-5yrs short haul command, what would the total gross be of a skipper short haul with such seniority?

i hope we are turning a corner with balpa, strike at ba, ballot at ryr, it appears finally they are getting some balls!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

i hope we are turning a corner with balpa, strike at ba, ballot at ryr, it appears finally they are getting some balls!

This perception of Balpa as some over-arching entity that decides the fate of all is a similar misnomer to pilots thinking they need public backing to carry out a strike.

Balpa is just an association you can join. It’s the members that dictate where the association goes.

Blaming Balpa “the association” for anything is a bit like blaming the autopilot for flying into a hill. Ultimately, maintaining the sustainability of a flying career for all current and future airline pilots is our responsibility as a collective. Balpa is just a vehicle.

[pudoc]

Can someone tell me the last time Aircrew went on strike in the UK?

Thomas Cook pilots summer 2017.

[Alloy]

Dannyboy39 stated “But if it’s just a numbers game an 11.5% pay bump... that’s hard to comprehend. See the staff of Monarch, Air Berlin, Primera, Wow and other airlines struggling...”, well I’m one of those ex Monarch pilots who fully supports the BA pilots in their claim, having in the not to distant past, looked at what the opportunities were in BA and concluded the package was inadequate and went elsewhere. From what I see the offer basically keeps pace with inflation plus perhaps a little bit, but does not address previous shortfalls.

[Ron Swanson]

This perception of Balpa as some over-arching entity that decides the fate of all is a similar misnomer to pilots thinking they need public backing to carry out a strike.

Balpa is just an association you can join. It’s the members that dictate where the association goes.

Blaming Balpa “the association” for anything is a bit like blaming the autopilot for flying into a hill. Ultimately, maintaining the sustainability of a flying career for all current and future airline pilots is our responsibility as a collective. Balpa is just a vehicle.
I don't remember any of the association crying out for JSS, it was BALPA CC that made (or accepted) the decision to bundle it in with a pay rise to get it passed. Personally I don't think it would ever have passed a clean vote of association members so the CC had to hide it in a bundle, pure politics.

[Longtimer]

BA loses court bid to avert pilot strikes

24 July, 2019
SOURCE: Flight Dashboard
BY: Victoria Bryan

UK pilot union BALPA is giving British Airways "one last chance" to negotiate on pay and benefits after the carrier lost a High Court bid to prevent strike action.

Pilots on 22 July voted to strike over pay. The next day, a High Court judge ruled that the ballot had been issued correctly and that the result could therefore stand.

BA says it will appeal the judgement, but is also urging the union to return to talks.

"We are very disappointed with today's decision," stated the IAG-owned carrier on 23 July. "We will continue to pursue every avenue to protect the holidays of thousands of our customers this summer."

BALPA describes the delay caused by the court action as frustrating.

"BA could have spent this time coming back to the negotiating table instead of trying – and failing – to tie us up in legal knots," states general secretary Brian Strutton.

"We have still not set any strike dates to give BA one last chance to commit to negotiating on pilots pay and rewards with us at Acas later this week," he adds.

Strutton says the two sides are due to hold talks under conciliation service Acas on 26 July, but fears they may be postponed due to BA's legal appeal.

BA argues that its offer of an 11.5% increase over three years is "fair". BALPA warns that one day of strikes would cost BA more than what their pilots are asking for.

"The company itself has admitted that even one day of strike action would cost most than what our pilots are asking for, so the ball really is in their court here, to look after their pilots and ensure the hardworking public get to continue their holidays as planned," Strutton declares.

[Maxfli]

2018 £1,952m +10.3%
2017 £1,769m +20%
2016 £1,473m +16.5%

£5.19b in 3 years.
What % did SNR Cruz share with the Nigels?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I don't remember any of the association crying out for JSS, it was BALPA CC that made (or accepted) the decision to bundle it in with a pay rise to get it passed. Personally I don't think it would ever have passed a clean vote of association members so the CC had to hide it in a bundle, pure politics.

I agree that it should never have been part of a pay deal, but it was, and it was put to a vote. Guess what, we voted for it. I feel (with hindsight) it was mis-sold to us but I also feel Balpa reps do what they think is best for the majority and for the long term interests of all BA pilots. And I’m sure they would love the benefit of hindsight but we need someone to make decisions on our behalf. Sometimes they get it right sometimes they don’t. At the end of the day, we get a vote.

I just find it ironic when people talk about “Balpa” as some foreign body who control the direction of the entire group. Balpa is the pilots who choose to join the association. Within each airline group we either act with unity and collective awareness or we look out for ourselves. As a result, we will reap what we sow. I think it really is as simple as that.

Its amazing what can be achieved by working together...

[Ron Swanson]

I agree that it should never have been part of a pay deal, but it was, and it was put to a vote. Guess what, we voted for it.

It shouldn't have been part of the pay deal, but the CC knew that would help it get passed so they put it in. And now thanks to BALPA we have JSS, the sad thing is, the people who forced it through don't have to suffer the consequences of their machinations as most of them still enjoy the benefits of a BALPA roster, apparently rejoining the line flying community is beneath them.

[g-code]

Good luck from across the pond

Public opinion doesn’t pay the bills, and the public at large has a short memory.

[Vokes55]

Good luck from the rest of the industry. The people who make comparisons with NHS staff who "haven't had a pay rise for years" should focus on the NHS staff not having had a pay rise for years, rather than the employees of a company making shed loads of money. They NHS's empty coffers and inefficiencies shouldn't be a benchmark for private sector terms and pay.

[BluSdUp]

Dear All
From an IFALPA member via NF ( Norsk FlygerForbund) Norwegian Pilot Assosiation.
Time to set things right, just like SAS did this spring.
We need You as a proud Flag Carrier to lead the way in recovering our pay and terms in Europe.
Go Go Go, err rather Park Brake set : Shutdown Checklist : Complete!

Until Management are ready with a proper and good proposal.
Timing is right, as I think the average PAX is thoroughly hooked on the Drug we push, namely absurdly cheap flight with great flexibility.
United we stand!
Regards
Cpt B

[Emma Royds]

A quick question for the BA Brethren.

I understand that those who intend to take part in industrial action are being requested to inform the company in advance and will temporarily lose their staff travel benefits. I am assuming this is until the end of the planned industrial action?

Given the number of you that commute by air to London, do you think there could be a sizeable number of commuters that voted for industrial action but quietly plan to continue working normally so that their staff travel remains unaffected?

[The Blu Riband]

I understand that those who intend to take part in industrial action are being requested to inform the company in advance and will temporarily lose their staff travel benefits. I am assuming this is until the end of the planned industrial action?

Given the number of you that commute by air to London, do you think there could be a sizeable number of commuters that voted for industrial action but quietly plan to continue working normally so that their staff travel remains unaffected?

1. You understand wrong
2. No

[TheAirMission]

Didn't the cabin crew lose their staff travel for a year following the strikes? I was told its three months for the pilots

[wiggy]

Given the number of you that commute by air to London, do you think there could be a sizeable number of commuters that voted for industrial action but quietly plan to continue working normally so that their staff travel remains unaffected?

Another "no" from me. ... FWIW most experienced "flying commuters" have learnt they need to have options to get/to from London that don't involve staff travel and quite possibly don't involve BA at all.

[back to Boeing]

Another "no" from me. ... FWIW most experienced "flying commuters" have learnt they need to have options to get/to from London that don't involve staff travel and quite possibly don't involve BA at all.

ah yes, during a discussion with their manager after being late on a firm ticket a member of cabin crew told “well you can’t rely on BA to get you to work on time”

i believe her her response was (paraphrased) well someone should really tell our passengers that.

[wiggy]

Didn't the cabin crew lose their staff travel for a year following the strikes? I was told its three months for the pilots

Not sure where the three months comes from..(and regarding Emma’s post AFAIK there has been no formal communication from the company to individuals either asking if they intend to take part in IA or detailing potential impact on staff travel)

As for the Cabin crew and previous disputes: the threat of losing staff travel was made, it didn't stop many "commuters" in that community engaging in IA.

TBH it was funny looking how many of them post strike ended up as card holders and enjoyed all that went with it.....as I said, there are options other than BA staff travel if people need to get to/from work.

[hunterboy]

I think ST is the last resort nowadays for many commuters, especially as Big Brother is watching your commuting and duty times. I gather more than a few commuters are using Easy and Ryanair so BA management can’t track you. A farcical state of affairs that means crew are arriving to work more tired than if they’d caught a BA flight and got a comfy seat.
What with the strong likelihood of a hard Brexit, that nobody voted for, it does seem to be the British way to persevere with a plan of action that has a worse outcome than the status quo.

[Twiglet1]

I think ST is the last resort nowadays for many commuters, especially as Big Brother is watching your commuting and duty times. I gather more than a few commuters are using Easy and Ryanair so BA management can’t track you. A farcical state of affairs that means crew are arriving to work more tired than if they’d caught a BA flight and got a comfy seat.
What with the strong likelihood of a hard Brexit, that nobody voted for, it does seem to be the British way to persevere with a plan of action that has a worse outcome than the status quo.
My old DFO always said to commuters "only do what I can roster" - strangely enough BALPA never really argued that point.

[Emma Royds]

Thanks for the clarification.

The information in my last post came from one of your colleagues but as we were both passing through security, there was little time to chat more.

​​​​​​​Good luck to you all! :ok:

[Ollie Onion]

Whenever I have been involved in industrial action normally one of the first things the company has done it get the staff to notify if they are taking part in the said action. They do/did it under the guise of forward schedule planning and pay calculations etc but could certainly be used to withdraw perks like staff travel etc, don't expect them to play nice.

[The Mixmaster]

https://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Press-Releases/Pilots-defeat-British-Airways%E2%80%99-legal-challenge


BA have had their appeal dismissed. Kudos to BALPA for having their ducks in a row on this. Keep up the good fight!

[Starbear]

https://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Press-Releases/Pilots-defeat-British-Airways%E2%80%99-legal-challenge


BA have had their appeal dismissed. Kudos to BALPA for having their ducks in a row on this. Keep up the good fight!
absolutely! It’s good to see that unions have finally cottoned onto using management style tools against them. I have been relentlessly frustrated watching management of many airlines using the legal system to thwart workers plans. I could never figure out why the unions weren’t alert to this in a similar fashion.

And they should engage decent PR people to get their message across. eg immediate rebuttal of management’s disappointment at pilots threatening passenger travel plans, stating we are disappointed at management’s position forcing the pilots to feel it necessary to consider such drastic action.

In fact getting that out ahead of corporate spin is the way to go.

[Officer Kite]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7310177/BA-pilots-set-strike-height-summer-holidays-moan-theyve-lost-job-perks.html#comments


This article is a nasty piece of work

[fivecandles]

The Daily Mail is a nasty piece of work

[Tay Cough]

The Daily Mail exists to sell the Daily Mail. Accurate reporting is a secondary consideration.

[bex88]

I was told by a neighbour on our street that I should be ashamed of myself. He said it’s disgusting that I am earning 200k whilst others struggle........FFS........I don’t earn half that and thus far I have not done anything. I certainly don’t feel “safe and secure” when the company allows these articles to go unchallenged

[Ranmore]

I was told by a neighbour on our street that I should be ashamed of myself. He said it’s disgusting that I am earning 200k whilst others struggle........FFS........I don’t earn half that and thus far I have not done anything. I certainly don’t feel “safe and secure” when the company allows these articles to go unchallenged

As one wise sage commented - “If only I worked as little as my neighbour does and also earned as much as my neighbour thinks I do”

To a large degree most people have a choice in life regarding their career path. I’m guessing your neighbour had that choice also.
I’m a commercial pilot for a well known UK airline - and I’ve been shocked quite frankly at BA management’s industrial behaviour.
In a word - amateur

May I suggest that those critics amongst you take time to consider the facts before commenting so ignorantly.
Had the Daily Angry and the like actually done so then what they would have reported would have been fact.

But hey - never ever let the truth get in the way of a “good” story. !

The very best of luck to our fellow UK pilots in BA

Enough is enough quite frankly

[Trossie]

i dont give 2 hoots what the public or press say.




-- then --

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7310177/BA-pilots-set-strike-height-summer-holidays-moan-theyve-lost-job-perks.html#comments


This article is a nasty piece of work
Not the time to get thin-skinned now!

[Paul Lupp]

Would the pilots dare disrupt the nominal 100 year anniversary on August Bank Holiday weekend (England and Wales)?

[wiggy]

TBH Paul in the current climate I'm not sure many pilots hold the anniversary date dear to their hearts, and anyway some of the special company events, such as HM the Queens visit to company HQ, have already happened.

If the date of the (alleged ;) ) 100th anniversary falls within the nominated dates for Industrial Action (IA) and that IA takes place then personally I can't see it escaping the disruption.

[beamer]

Morning all

I have just been walking my dog with a neighbour who has return flights to Denver booked with BA in September. He has no connection with aviation whatsoever and is thoroughly bemused as to why BA pilots are not content with the three year deal that is on offer from their employers. As I have been out of the industry since retirement three years ago ( not BA ), could someone give me a simple one paragraph reason as to why this deal is unacceptable - I can then pass it on to my chum.

Thanks in anticipation - I take no sides in the issue whatsoever !

[wiggy]

beamer..

First question would be what does your friend think the three year deal is?

The sensible will recognise a need to take care in 100% candidly and honestly answering your quite reasonable follow up question..I have been looking around for a suitable BALPA sanctioned public statement/press release but so far have failed to find one.

[Tight Accountant]

2018 £1,952m +10.3%
2017 £1,769m +20%
2016 £1,473m +16.5%

£5.19b in 3 years.
What % did SNR Cruz share with the Nigels?

I will have to look at the IAG Annual Report to see which numbers you are picking up. I don't know the history between BA and the pilots; apparently they took a salary cut or changed T&C's when things were lean? However, one thing I do find strange about BA employees' perception on how BA as a firm should behave it is the idea that it is workers cooperative, where the fruits of the labour and rewards are equally shared. I get the impression that this is a legacy from being a State owned airline which hasn't quite diminished.

[Chris the Robot]

From what I can see as an outsider the main problems with the deal are as follows:

(i) The pilots took a pay cut when BA was struggling but now that the airline is performing well financially the pay cut hasn't been repaid after being adjusted for inflation.
(ii) The proposed deal is supposedly in-line with inflation, however unspecified productivity demands labelled as "management changes" are being made of pilots which could affect the pilots' quality of life/fatigue. Productivity related pay increases should be discussed over and above the inflation part of a pay deal when things are going well and it should be specified exactly what these productivity changes are.
(iii) There doesn't seem to be any inflation lock on the proposed deal, at least where I work pay deals take the form of "RPI +x%" or "£x or RPI whichever is greater", so if inflation rose, pilots would still be out of pocket.
(iv) General dissatisfaction at large with the way the airline is being run, especially regarding rostering and accomodation.

It may be true that BA isn't a workers co-operative, however that's one of the main reasons why trade unions were formed, to strengthen the workers' position in negotiations with the forces of capital. The capital/labour relationship is a two-way one, without labour capital doesn't develop and without capital, there is no-one to employ the labour force.

[MD80rookie]

Fellow pilots with BA and elsewhere!

Avoid discussions in media. Avoid discussions with dog walking neighbors. I'm with SAS and we recently survived a wee long strike where representatives of the airline industry in Scandinavia desperately tried to hang us out in media with salaries etc.

Trust your union, your colleagues and yourself. Best of luck!

[RetiredBA/BY]

I will have to look at the IAG Annual Report to see which numbers you are picking up. I don't know the history between BA and the pilots; apparently they took a salary cut or changed T&C's when things were lean? However, one thing I do find strange about BA employees' perception on how BA as a firm should behave it is the idea that it is workers cooperative, where the fruits of the labour and rewards are equally shared. I get the impression that this is a legacy from being a State owned airline which hasn't quite diminished.

I do not believe for one moment that BA staff consider the company as a worker’s co-operative but there is nothing wrong with wanting to share on the companies success when it is making seriously good profits, and especially after the management said it could not have been achieved without their efforts.

Quite some years ago I owned and ran a small aviation related company. My small team were paid for the work they did, regardless. However when we made good profits, we usually did, I shared that success with them in the form of a Christmas bonus. It worked, they had something tangible to show for their loyalty and good work, not just fine words.

Now, I wonder, just what the Directors in BA receive as THEIR profit related bonus ( directors ’bonuses are very tax efficient) and how that is related to company profits and why key staff should not, similarly, share in success.

[Paul Lupp]

Now, I wonder, just what the Directors in BA receive as THEIR profit related bonus ( directors ’bonuses are very tax efficient) and how that is related to company profits and why key staff should not, similarly, share in success.
As I said previously, the rich are getting richer and the poor, poorer. Executive pay is out of control with wholly unjustifiable levels of pay rises for people who are simply doing their job well.
In the case of BA and no doubt, many other firms, the fact that they are run by people who are, to put it kindly, complete a**holes, doesn't help matters.....

[The Mixmaster]

I will have to look at the IAG Annual Report to see which numbers you are picking up. I don't know the history between BA and the pilots; apparently they took a salary cut or changed T&C's when things were lean? However, one thing I do find strange about BA employees' perception on how BA as a firm should behave it is the idea that it is workers cooperative, where the fruits of the labour and rewards are equally shared. I get the impression that this is a legacy from being a State owned airline which hasn't quite diminished.


Perhaps you can explain why Jet2 offer their pilots a profit share or EasyJet offer theirs a share save scheme?

IAG Executive management were asked by analyst investors today who will win as the match between BALPA & BA management goes into a penalty shoot out. Alex Cruz didn’t have much to say. Keep up the good work BALPA. Your colleagues in other airlines and associations Europe wide are right behind you:ok:

[beamer]

Wiggy - my pal is under the impression that the deal on offer is 11.5% over three years. Whether there are conditions attached such as increased productivity or reduced 'benefits' in lieu, I have no idea as I have not been following the issue that closely. The BA pilots I know tell me that they want an increased share of BA profits to retain their position relative to other 'major' carriers.

As I said earlier, I have absolutely no axe to grind on this one but there must surely come a point when public perception about potential strike action becomes a very pertinent factor. Would I normally consider BA to travel - yes, would I think about booking with them until this issue is settled - no.

[red9]

Love to see the figures whereby the Daily Mail get an average salary of £167,000

[RexBanner]

Would the pilots dare disrupt the nominal 100 year anniversary on August Bank Holiday weekend (England and Wales)?

Anyone who believes this is an actual 100 year anniversary probably thinks Trigger in Only Fools and Horses is still in possession of his original broom. It’s bogus from the very beginning, I mean Air Transport and Travel went into liquidation after less than two years for God’s sake!

[Max Angle]

Would I normally consider BA to travel - yes, would I think about booking with them until this issue is settled - n
And that my friend is exactly the result that industrial action, or the threat of it, is supposed to achieve.

[beamer]

Max...........and exactly the reason why the public at large think that pilots are over paid.......and before you ask 16 yrs Mil/24 years Civ and now retired.

[akindofmagic]

Max...........and exactly the reason why the public at large think that pilots are over paid

And still nobody has given a single credible reason why BA pilots should give a toss what the public at large think, whether it's about their salaries in general or the strike more specifically.

BA pilots are employees of a private company. They are not civil servants whose salary is determined by a remuneration committee that is itself ultimately answerable to MPs who are themselves ultimately answerable to the voters. Public opinion on who is to blame doesn't matter; whether the public takes the management's side or the pilots' side, the fact remains that people will probably be put off booking with BA while the threat of a strike looms. As previously alluded to, that is kind of the point.

[Boeing 7E7]

This is truly laughable! If public opinion really influenced things other than in a superficial and meaningless way, the world might look quite different. MPs know this (after a short public outcry their inflation busting pay rise went ahead), Big business/corporations know this (have they REALLY changed how much tax they pay), billionaires know this (have they changed their ways to pay their FAIR share of taxes?). The answer is no. If British Airways pilots believe the public will turn against their profession or airline and will remember this a few weeks or months when it has passed, they are woefully mistaken. Just go for it and stop being pathetic!

[gatbusdriver]

Not BA, but wish you all the best.

When they come cap in hand and you give, I would expect something in return when times are good. At the very least some form of profit share.

As to changes to your working conditions.........I wouldn't want to join on the current conditions as they are!

Stuff the naysayers, you're doing the right thing.

GTB

[No longer ATC]

Not BA, but wish you all the best.

When they come cap in hand and you give, I would expect something in return when times are good. At the very least some form of profit share.

As to changes to your working conditions.........I wouldn't want to join on the current conditions as they are!

Stuff the naysayers, you're doing the right thing.

GTB


Now where is that "like" button..?

[CurlyB]

BA loses court bid to avert pilot strikes

24 July, 2019
SOURCE: Flight Dashboard
BY: Victoria Bryan

UK pilot union BALPA is giving British Airways "one last chance" to negotiate on pay and benefits after the carrier lost a High Court bid to prevent strike action.

Pilots on 22 July voted to strike over pay. The next day, a High Court judge ruled that the ballot had been issued correctly and that the result could therefore stand.

BA says it will appeal the judgement, but is also urging the union to return to talks.

"We are very disappointed with today's decision," stated the IAG-owned carrier on 23 July. "We will continue to pursue every avenue to protect the holidays of thousands of our customers this summer."

BALPA describes the delay caused by the court action as frustrating.

"BA could have spent this time coming back to the negotiating table instead of trying – and failing – to tie us up in legal knots," states general secretary Brian Strutton.

"We have still not set any strike dates to give BA one last chance to commit to negotiating on pilots pay and rewards with us at Acas later this week," he adds.

Strutton says the two sides are due to hold talks under conciliation service Acas on 26 July, but fears they may be postponed due to BA's legal appeal.

BA argues that its offer of an 11.5% increase over three years is "fair". BALPA warns that one day of strikes would cost BA more than what their pilots are asking for.

"The company itself has admitted that even one day of strike action would cost most than what our pilots are asking for, so the ball really is in their court here, to look after their pilots and ensure the hardworking public get to continue their holidays as planned," Strutton declares.

That shows you how ideological this whole affair is.

Solidarity with the BA pilots, from a railwayman

[beachbumflyer]

Not BA, but wish you all the best.

When they come cap in hand and you give, I would expect something in return when times are good. At the very least some form of profit share.

As to changes to your working conditions.........I wouldn't want to join on the current conditions as they are!

Stuff the naysayers, you're doing the right thing.

GTB
Same here..

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

Whether there are conditions attached such as increased productivity or reduced 'benefits' in lieu, I have no idea as I have not been following the issue that closely.
Not following closely is probably causing the very important details to be missed. Something already mentioned on this thread, but being lost in the white noise of people harping on about BA's percentage 'offers', is the condition for pilots to sign up to unspecified "change intiatives" to get a pay deal. Anyone with half a brain knows that this is BA management-speak for "You pilots are going to fund the entirety of any pay deal by severe changes elsewhere to you're Ts & Cs." You don't see any mention of that in BA's releases to the media, do you?

Why would any sane employee agree to that, for goodness sake? :rolleyes:

[wiggy]

Something already mentioned on this thread, but being lost in the white noise of people harping on about BA's percentage 'offers', is the condition for pilots to sign up to unspecified "change intiatives" to get a pay deal.

Yep...that condition doesn't seem to have raised much comment, either here or in MSM..

[Meester proach]

So any idea when the first day might be ?

May screw me up coming back from vacation , but still support the fight brothers !

[hunterboy]

I’m sure they will give everyone the requisite 2 weeks notice of any action so that people may make other arrangements.

[kungfu panda]

I was Extremely disappointed with BA staff travel at Heathrow. They've set up a system which requires you to queue for at least 1 hour to check in (I left and went to buy a full fare ticket). Crew were coming in off long haul flights to join this queue for their travel home to Scotland etc. I don't believe that this is what BA staff signed up for and as crew of another Airline, I can assure BA staff that they will NEVER be treated so badly when they travel with my company. Every other Airline is better, my recent experiences are Lufthansa, Turkish, Qatar, Emirates, Royal Air Maroc, Alitalia.

[Chris the Robot]

I do think that if BALPA's campaign is to be successful, their PR department needs to make much more of the unspecified "management changes". You'd have to be stark raving bonkers to sign up to something that you don't know the specific details of. The fact that it is unspecified tells you all you need to know.

Where I work, any productivity-related pay deals involve specific agreements covering exactly what the changes are.

The general public at large seem to think that this is a "no strings attached" straight pay deal, which makes it look much more generous than it would appear to be.

[wiggy]

I was Extremely disappointed with BA staff travel at Heathrow. They've set up a system which requires you to queue for at least 1 hour to check in (I left and went to buy a full fare ticket). Crew were coming in off long haul flights to join this queue for their travel home to Scotland etc. .

When/where was this? I know staff travel can be pants but that doesn't sound like the normal T5 system, though I believe there were some problems a week or so back.

[kungfu panda]

When/where was this? I know staff travel can be pants but that doesn't sound like the normal T5 system, though I believe there were some problems a week or so back.
I don't want to give up my anonymity, so let's just say that it was within the time frame that you mention. T5.

[wiggy]

:ok: I believe there were some "issues" around the thunderstorm disruption a week or two back.

[kungfu panda]

No, it wasn't that, sorry. The weather was Europe: CAVOK.
Anyway, I'll accept what you say. Maybe it was a one off.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

You'd have to be stark raving bonkers to sign up to something that you don't know the specific details of.

Yeah we'd NEVER do that would we.....

Oh wait, we already have. JSS enter stage left! And what a brilliant success that's proving to be.

[hunterboy]

May have been the day last week when the message was promulgated by an over eager manager that staff travel was “cancelled” for the day.
Funny thing about BA is that you can never find a manager to make a decision about the big important stuff, but the niff naff and triv issues have a line of managers ready to stick their oar in.

[Tight Accountant]

Perhaps you can explain why Jet2 offer their pilots a profit share or EasyJet offer theirs a share save scheme?

In short, a Senior Management decision. As for employee share schemed, some firms dislike these as they are expensive to administer, have difficult tax implications, dilutes the owners' holding, may not as be as beneficial to staff as originally intended, etc. Given that BA has a legions of staff and staff turnover is quite high in the junior ranks, the administration would probably be painful.

[The Mixmaster]

However, one thing I do find strange about BA employees' perception on how BA as a firm should behave it is the idea that it is workers cooperative, where the fruits of the labour and rewards are equally shared. I get the impression that this is a legacy from being a State owned airline which hasn't quite diminished.

When you have companies like Jet2 and EasyJet willing to share profits with their pilots your above “legacy” argument holds no water.

Quite correct it’s a Senior Management decision, the fact that IAG/BA Senior Management are insisting on unspecified “change initiatives” to self fund the package on offer is the very reason for the current Industrial Dispute. The unity displayed by BALPA so far is commendable and I would argue the administration costs for the implementation and maintenance of a share save scheme would be a drop in the ocean compared to the losses incurred from strike action.

[wiggy]

No, it wasn't that, sorry. The weather was Europe: CAVOK.
Anyway, I'll accept what you say. Maybe it was a one off.

FWIW in the day(s) following the major thunderstorm episode that hit the south east UK there was a lot of disruption, with aircraft and crews out of position, which I know from colleagues led to serious disruption of the normal staff travel process ex-T5. It then became even more complicated due to somebody making the decision hunterboy has described upthread..

What you describe ( the 1 hour queue) is certainly not the normal process on a normal day for stand-by travel ex-T5..

Anyhow back to the thread.

[Tight Accountant]

When you have companies like Jet2 and EasyJet willing to share profits with their pilots your above “legacy” argument holds no water.

Quite correct it’s a Senior Management decision, the fact that IAG/BA Senior Management are insisting on unspecified “change initiatives” to self fund the package on offer is the very reason for the current Industrial Dispute. The unity displayed by BALPA so far is commendable and I would argue the administration costs for the implementation and maintenance of a share save scheme would be a drop in the ocean compared to the losses incurred from strike action.

I think you have conflated my two previous posts BA culture and employee share schemes. It isn't just the admin which is painful, it is all the other items such as the accounting and tax issues which cause pain. Also, I suspect BA Management don't want staff becoming owners of IAG and having too much influence on the business. Digressing, looking into the history and origins of the current dispute, the will rub is that Balpa negotiated a pay cut of 2.6% some years ago and correct me if I'm wrong, never argued the case for reinstatement at a predetermined date? To me, that seem to poor negotiating but before everyone criticises, I'm an outsider looking in.

[Clandestino]

I was told by a neighbour on our street that I should be ashamed of myself. He said it’s disgusting that I am earning 200k whilst others struggle........FFS........I don’t earn half that and thus far I have not done anything. I certainly don’t feel “safe and secure” when the company allows these articles to go unchallenged

Pretty similar situation, different country. I was pretty sure that my company black ops was behind worried journos that claimed we worked about 70 hrs a month while earning what was more than double the pay we had at the time and public interest loving editors that put "Lazy pilots" on their frontpages, so I wasn't really surprised when that same papers refused to print union's correction even as an advertisement. Most neighbours choose just to give me stern looks, except for the one who went vocal. So I offered him our HR phone so he can apply for my position. Upon learning he has no licence or medical, I offered him to connect him with the buddy of mine who runs flight school and quoted him the approximate price for CPL + fATPL. To this day I can't understand what made him perform about face with not quite happy expression when I just tried to be helpful.

Folks, waste no time on union PR, Joe Public should carry the same weight in union - company relations as Jack Schidt does. Convincing pilots that public opinion matters is merely management's demoralization tool. Don't fall for it.

I suspect BA Management don't want staff becoming owners of IAG and having too much influence on the business.Then they can perform the revolutionary, never-seen-before method of paying bonus in cash instead of in shares or options.

may not as be as beneficial to staff as originally intendedYup, giving employees extra money surely wrecks original intention of building employees' character by making them suffer due to low pay.

[1066]

BA website today 5 August 2019, at 1120 BST, Update on,Proposed industrial action by BALPA
First sentence, " We have been working with the pilots’ union, BALPA, to reach an agreement on pay and we are continuing with talks at ACAS." (My bold)

Penultimate sentence, " We understand how precious your summer holidays are and we are very sorry BALPA has threatened to call this strike action. We will continue to exhaust every possible means to avoid it and we urge BALPA to return to talks as soon as possible". (My bold)

I don't see how both highlighted sentences can be true! But then I am probably a senile retired pilot, RAF, BA and eJ.

1066

[Stocious]

Well they should have started discussing it properly last November then!

[Phantom4]

Need to take Cruz behind the bike shed.

[wiggy]

Well it is all going well this morning......

No doubt there will be expectations, again, that the front line staff (who the airline management don’t seem particularly keen to reward in a manner proportionate to the profits) will pick up the pieces..again.

[downsizer]

Any update on how the talks at ACAS are going?

[hunterboy]

It does seem to tie in with BA’s assertion that there isn’t anymore money available to pay the pilots pay claim.....if only they didn’t have to pay massive data protection fines and disruption payments for these IT disasters caused by a lack of investment over the last 10 years.

[Paul Lupp]

if only they didn’t have to pay massive data protection fines and disruption payments for these IT disasters caused by a lack of investment over the last 10 years.

This unfortunately seems to be the "ethos" in the UK: You did something wrong so you now have to pay a big fine.
No mention of education/training to make sure you found out what went wrong, why it went wrong and therefore an understanding of what you need to do to prevent recurrence.

Everything from parking transgressions, speeding, dog fouling pavements, breaches in data protection legislation.....

[Walnut]

Yet again more IT problems with the airline. All front line staff are now in the firing line, the pilots are one of the key cogs, not just in flying the a/c, but showing ingenuity and flexibility in operational workarounds. Management should understand that their flight crew all go the extra mile to resolve problems. This is not a good time to further antagonise their flight crew.
I did 34yrs at the sharp end and must have saved the airline £100ks by thinking outside the box. I speak from experience the management was poor then it seems to have got a whole lot worse.

[shamrock_f22]

Wanted to share my support for all BA staff in getting better pay deals and working conditions
​​​​​​
I've always wanted to be a pilot and I'm slowly edging towards that dream but the closer I get, and the more I speak to current pilots, the more I question whether I actually want to do it anymore.

I won't recall every single instance but I've met a lot of pilots recently (including BA) and most, if not all, seemed genuinely unhappy, tired and disillusioned. What really stands out to me though is that very few know their true value as a human being and as an airline employee and those who do, are drowned out by the "be grateful" crowd.

This is what has ruined recruitment at entry/junior level because people will do anything the airlines demand of them because they're "grateful" just to be considered. And when they're in the job, keep schtum, put up with it because you should be grateful for what you get.

Absolute nonsense. Your contribution and position in the company should be viewed in its own merit. As a public company you have every right to question how the company rewards and renumerates its exec staff and shareholders if you're the ones who are paying for it, contributing to success and profits and seeing a lack of reinvestment in your career.

I have friends and family who worked for BA for years as ground and IT staff, treated like absolute garbage by the management but who never collectively united to make their voices heard.

About time BA pilots stood together. What makes me sad is Im sure there are pilots watching in the sidelines from other carriers who see this as an opp to jump to BA and the airline knows that so will hold it over your heads as leverage.

Best of luck to you all

[farefield]

Full support from me for the BA pilots.

Maybe the Virgin Atlantic ones will show some cojones and vote to take action against the attacks on their terms and conditions.

I've always considered VAA to be "enthusiastic amateurs" and the only professional part of the airline are the pilots and engineers. The quality of the management

is such that they've only ever made a profit in a handful of years in the past 30 (or so they say!).

Good luck to the BA guys.

[Riskybis]

Full support from me for the BA pilots.

Maybe the Virgin Atlantic ones will show some cojones and vote to take action against the attacks on their terms and conditions.

I've always considered VAA to be "enthusiastic amateurs" and the only professional part of the airline are the pilots and engineers. The quality of the management

is such that they've only ever made a profit in a handful of years in the past 30 (or so they say!).

Good luck to the BA guys.


we didn’t drop the 15% pension contribution for new joiners ,
we still have the 750hr rule (which I think is the absolute golden egg)
we also had a reasonable pay rise

but I also agree the management is pretty rubbish (but who’s isn’t )

I fully support BAs strike !! It’s about time !

Virgin is majority owned by Delta , I’m sure they have a big say in what happens

[BluSdUp]

Funny thing Management, when ever I ask them a specific question ,they need some time, then get back to You with the wrong answer, to late, after the problem has time-expired or gone proper PearShaped.
Anyway.
Good to see fellow Aviators in the UK finally taking action!

Regards
Cpt B

[UAV689]

I hope pilots of all wings support each other in this summer of disputes.

[Horace Batchelor]

Has the BA BALPA forum been hacked - it's been down for over 24 hours now.

[wiggy]

It might be hacked but being a suspicious soul I think one other possibility worth considering is that it might have been turned off for tactical reasons.

I do know the Mods over there have been working really chuffing hard for several weeks now trying to stop posters dropping themselves and/or BALPA in the dwang, but despite the repeated pleas there are still a few who don't seem to get the hints about ST..U and/or still feel entitled to have a minute by minute update on what's going on.

If BALPA have pulled the plug temporarily TBH I wouldn't blame them.

[G SXTY]

That’s just what I was thinking Wiggy.

Frustrating as it is, I’ll accept there are probably very good reasons for suspending the forum for a few days.

BA isn’t exactly a stranger to litigation.

[No longer ATC]

That’s just what I was thinking Wiggy.

Frustrating as it is, I’ll accept there are probably very good reasons for suspending the forum for a few days.

BA isn’t exactly a stranger to litigation.

It's back now.

[wiggy]

Thanks for the heads up...and I note there’s a fresh warning from one of the moderators.

[TheAirMission]

Here we go

[Twiglet1]

Wonder how many Qatar Airways aircraft will pitch up!?

[Busdriver01]

Wonder how many Qatar Airways aircraft will pitch up!?

I wonder how many volunteer emails they will receive from the pilots and crew wanting a month away from the desert!!!

[RoyMunson]

I’ll be very surprised if the strike will actually happen. I think a deal will done 11th hour. BA would be extremely foolish to pressure test the resolve of its pilots.
Remember 93% voted in favour of strike action if a deal couldn’t be agreed on.
BA have been messing about with the pay negotiations for the past 8 months. Unfortunately the only language they understand is money and the loss of revenue.

[bylgw]

If too many Qatar frames turn up it will only further damage the brand. The Qatar product showed itself as superior, last time they were covering a shortfall

[Impress to inflate]

You have my support Nigel-Airways. it would appear this post is full of trolls dissing this issue. Look at pay rates in the Far East !

[Toolonginthisjob]

Some say......

Nobody knows what the union are asking for?

Some say......

Nobody knows what striking will actually cost individuals.

All we know is.....

it won’t be finished in 2019!

[hunterboy]

I’m guessing whoever “wins” this dispute, the cost of the loss of good -will of the pilots will far outstrip any strike costs. More of a lose-lose situation, that many staff could foresee when IAG put a notorious cost cutter in charge of IAG’s premier brand.

[Abbey Road]

Some say......

Nobody knows what the union are asking for?

Some say......

Nobody knows what striking will actually cost individuals.

All we know is.....

it won’t be finished in 2019!
RH, get back to your holiday and leave this to the people who know what they are doing.🙄

[cessnapete]

RH, get back to your holiday and leave this to the people who know what they are doing.🙄


I notice Mr. Cruz had no answer on Sky News to his 63% remuneration rise!!

[Doug E Style]

This anniversary year is going rather well; a massive fine for the data protection breach, another IT failure (the last?) and now the pilots are getting so fed up they're walking. I wonder how things are going at the other 100 year old European airline? Perhaps some of the guys that left BA to go to KLM can enlighten us.

[RoyMunson]

I notice Mr. Cruz had no answer on Sky News to his 63% remuneration rise!!

Sounded like he was on repeat for the most part of that interview.
"Getting in contact with customers and giving them options..."

Haven't done a very good job of that apparently !
Cancelling flights and then reinstating them hasn't gone down too well.

Muppet show......

[77]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7310177/BA-pilots-set-strike-height-summer-holidays-moan-theyve-lost-job-perks.html#comments


This article is a nasty piece of work

Out of interest the Daily Mail is officially described by Wikipedia as an unreliable source of information and cannot be quoted in Wikipedia.

[cessnaxpilot]

Having been on strike over here in the US... I know it’s no fun. Stay unified and I wish my colleagues at BA a positive outcome. Reading the latest news reports, it seems like BA management is making every mistake and it would have been much better for them to bargain a bit more!

[77]

BA wrote union a letter this afternoon saying they want negotiations to restart as soon as possible - either today or tomorrow

[wiggy]

Ummm..well it would be nice to think there is some "give" from a certain quarter but if you'll pardon me asking do you have a source for that?

I'm on e-mail Bulletin 33, timed at lunchtime today (GMM details) and also just had a look at another source and have seen no mention of that letter.

BALPA officials and reps are quite rightly playing cards very closely to the chest....

[77]

Saw it as a Daily Mail headline. Not the most reliable I know. Just checked their site, searched under BA strike, and it is still there.
Back page at the moment after Brexit announcements.

[hunterboy]

Gotta be honest, until IAG get involved (if ever) , BA don’t have the ability to offer any more money. I suppose that is why they have offered the corporate offering to everyone, giving a few crumbs and changes to working agreements for various work groups, as that is one of the few things they can offer.

[77]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7406985/British-Airways-pilots-union-leaders-warn-absolutely-no-point-fresh-talks.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ico=taboola_feed_desktop_newsBritish Airways pilots' union leaders warn there is 'absolutely no point' in fresh talks to avert a series of planned strikes unless a pay offer is improved.So I guess it is up to BA now. Realistic talks or strike action.

[anson harris]

Saw it as a Daily Mail headline

You'd literally be better off asking my dog for his opinion on what's actually happening.

[G SXTY]

Does he think BA are barking? :)

[A340Yumyum]

Saw it as a Daily Mail headline.

Ah, must be true, then.

[77]

Ah, must be true, then.
Not the best, I agree. But plenty of other reports as well, especially about how BA is flouting the rules about re-booking pax.
when are the public going to get the message about this management fiasco.

[hunterboy]

I think most staff in BA go through a phase of wanting to offer suggestions to improve things or efficiency . After being told enough times to wind your neck in, most of us shrug our shoulders and just dream what an awesome company BA could have been had we ever had decent management and leadership.
Maybe that’s the British disease.

[shamrock_f22]

I think most staff in BA go through a phase of wanting to offer suggestions to improve things or efficiency . After being told enough times to wind your neck in, most of us shrug our shoulders and just dream what an awesome company BA could have been had we ever had decent management and leadership.
Maybe that’s the British disease.

Its been going down the crapper for a long time. Its not just the British disease, have moved to this side of the Irish Sea the Irish suffer from something similar

[TheAirMission]

So the CEO and COO will be going soon I hear, COO off to Tui

[Twiglet1]

So the CEO and COO will be going soon I hear, COO off to Tui
Something will give eventually, the City will have its thoughts. I.T disaster, email disaster. Pilots strike whilst they might not have the support of the travelling public - let's face it when was the last BA Pilot strike?? (not to my knowledge). WW is probably the main driver but he won't get the heave ho. Sad times for a great Airline with great staff.

[Northern Monkey]

I think most staff in BA go through a phase of wanting to offer suggestions to improve things or efficiency . After being told enough times to wind your neck in, most of us shrug our shoulders and just dream what an awesome company BA could have been had we ever had decent management and leadership.
Maybe that’s the British disease.


This is exactIy how I feel. Spent ages when I joined trying to make suggestions and improve things. After a while you realise its totally pointless.

[Doug E Style]

1. It’s always been done this way
2. It’s not going to change
3. Get used to it

[Maxfli]

AC has being trying to push KG for ages.
Blame avoidance & finger pointing are the two main bloodsports.
How much integrity remained when SR left the table?

[Mylius]

AC has being trying to push KG for ages.
Blame avoidance & finger pointing are the two main bloodsports.
How much integrity remained when SR left the table?

Are AC or KG still even at the company? There’s been lots of chat about one or both leaving this week.

[3Greens]

Are AC or KG still even at the company? There’s been lots of chat about one or both leaving this week.
still there I believe, but for how long I don’t know. Heard Klaus failed his 787 conversion course and has withdrawn from a flying role.

[hunterboy]

I wonder if Klaus did the typical BA lo-cost Conversion course? A full conversion course done in half the normal time to save money! No wonder he failed if true.
I’m sure there is a word that describes that situation?.......

[Sunamer]

Danny boy...

shows how little you know! Don’t believe any headline figures. Do your research, look at Lufthansa, KLM... and the American carriers pay deals before judging. Then understand better how hard and how much BA Pilots have sacrificed in the past ten years. Then consider inflation against this claim of 11.5%... also, look at the rises the CEO has enjoyed recently, as well as a bumper one off dividend for share holders. Only when you see the true picture will you understand how shafted we have been and the true insult this pay offer is.....

oh and please understand any pay deal is based on ‘ unspecified change initiatives.’ Translated to mean - self funded pay rise through harder work.

Play devils advocate.... do your research and look at fact.. not spin!

Cant wait when automation (aka toyota for the pilots, while pilots behave like overpaid Detroit car manufacturing workers) takes over. And these guys are doing everything in their power to make that happen and to incentivize the employers to do that...
Overpaid pilot demanding pay raise = deserved pay raise due to harder work
Overpaid company ceo getting pay raise = greedy ceo stealing money because he can get away with it.
I hope you see the double standard. If not, you are already lost...

[Busdriver01]

Cant wait when automation (aka toyota for the pilots, while pilots behave like overpaid Detroit car manufacturing workers) takes over. And these guys are doing everything in their power to make that happen and to incentivize the employers to do that...
Overpaid pilot demanding pay raise = deserved pay raise due to harder work
Overpaid company ceo getting pay raise = greedy ceo stealing money because he can get away with it.
I hope you see the double standard. If not, you are already lost...

11.5% (10.5%) payrise vs. 63% payrise. Even the worst mathematician can see that's not a "double standard"

Let's be clear, pilots are not overpaid. They are paid according to market forces. The market force is and has been trending upwards since 2008 and BA pilots have not shared in that.

People like to slam pilots, saying they're not the most critical part of an airline. Funny, then, that almost all flights will be cancelled when the BA lot walk. Pretty critical, wouldn't you say! If pilots could be replaced as easily as for example labourers, they would be, but they can't.

Automation to the point where zero pilots are required is very, very distant. Take the tesla autopilot as an example of where we are from a moral point of view, let alone a technological one.

[Riskybis]

Cant wait when automation (aka toyota for the pilots, while pilots behave like overpaid Detroit car manufacturing workers) takes over. And these guys are doing everything in their power to make that happen and to incentivize the employers to do that...
Overpaid pilot demanding pay raise = deserved pay raise due to harder work
Overpaid company ceo getting pay raise = greedy ceo stealing money because he can get away with it.
I hope you see the double standard. If not, you are already lost...

you bloody moron :ugh:

[Riskybis]

11.5% (10.5%) payrise vs. 63% payrise. Even the worst mathematician can see that's not a "double standard"

Let's be clear, pilots are not overpaid. They are paid according to market forces. The market force is and has been trending upwards since 2008 and BA pilots have not shared in that.

People like to slam pilots, saying they're not the most critical part of an airline. Funny, then, that almost all flights will be cancelled when the BA lot walk. Pretty critical, wouldn't you say! If pilots could be replaced as easily as for example labourers, they would be, but they can't.

Automation to the point where zero pilots are required is very, very distant. Take the tesla autopilot as an example of where we are from a moral point of view, let alone a technological one.

well said sir

[MaverickPrime]

Out of curiosity, is the BA company contribution to the pension 15.6% or 12.6% and is it the same for new joiners?

[VinRouge]

15% if you do 6%. And it’s available to new joiners, yes.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Cant wait when automation (aka toyota for the pilots, while pilots behave like overpaid Detroit car manufacturing workers) takes over. And these guys are doing everything in their power to make that happen and to incentivize the employers to do that...
Overpaid pilot demanding pay raise = deserved pay raise due to harder work
Overpaid company ceo getting pay raise = greedy ceo stealing money because he can get away with it.
I hope you see the double standard. If not, you are already lost...


Muppetry of the first order.

I take it you're ready to take you and your family on a pilot-less airliner across the world on holiday? Thought not. But hey, as long as you get your £9.99 flight to Alicante you're happy I guess. Moron!

Sounds like a Daily Mail journo to me. Don't feed the troll folks.

[A340Yumyum]

Heard Klaus failed his 787 conversion course and has withdrawn from a flying role.


You heard wrong.

[plhought]

You heard wrong.


Klaus was flying the 787 at Air Canada all the time. I can't see him failing a 787 ride.

[suninmyeyes]

Speaking generically if someone has a Canadian rating and wishes to fly a UK airliner they cannot just do a type rating. To convert to a UK or EASA licence means a lot of exams and is a prolonged process.

[RoyMunson]

Klaus was flying the 787 at Air Canada all the time. I can't see him failing a 787 ride.

He failed his final line check but passed on a second attempt with a more ‘friendly’ trainer.

[RoyMunson]

I see the comms are starting to come in from the ‘big guns’.
The one being from AB asking if you could fill in a form to say if you are willing to fly on a strike day if rostered. Personally I think you’d be mad to fill out such a form. Your name will eventually be known. This is BA IT we’re talking about :rolleyes:

[Bradley Hardacre]

Personally I think you’d be mad to fill out such a form. Your name will eventually be known. Do they not know who they employ?

[RoyMunson]

They (BA) are trying to gauge who is going to come in.

[77]

Good luck to the BA guys. I hope they do not give in to the bully Boys. They need a successful outcome. Otherwise without a change of management BA will disappear. The shareholders need a strong message. This management has to go and be replaced by somebody who wants BA to be successful British product.

[A340Yumyum]

He failed his final line check but passed on a second attempt with a more ‘friendly’ trainer.

Roy, where do you get this BS from? That is simply not true.

[3Greens]

Roy, where do you get this BS from? That is simply not true.
so it’s also not true that Klaus had IP as instructor for every sim INCLUDING his LST?

[RoyMunson]

Isn’t it? My source is pretty reliable. You not from BA are you? Tell us what you know?

[sudden twang]

I see the comms are starting to come in from the ‘big guns’.
The one being from AB asking if you could fill in a form to say if you are willing to fly on a strike day if rostered. Personally I think you’d be mad to fill out such a form. Your name will eventually be known. This is BA IT we’re talking about :rolleyes:
I heard that was not the Q asked.

[hunterboy]

Again, with no insider knowledge in Klaus’ case, I would suggest it would be difficult enough passing a BA conversion course while studying for it 100%, without having to worry about his other day job. I’ll cut the guy a bit of slack on that . Maybe it will give him an insight in the corners and costs being cut in BA in the various training departments. At least he is in a position to change things if he wanted.

[RoyMunson]

I heard that was not the Q asked.

OK......
Extract from the Email from AB.....
"Whether you are currently rostered to work or not over this period, I would be grateful if you would let me know your willingness to work by completing this simple confidential form before 0700 (local time) on Tuesday 3 September.:"

[sudden twang]

OK......
Extract from the Email from AB.....
"Whether you are currently rostered to work or not over this period, I would be grateful if you would let me know your willingness to work by completing this simple confidential form before 0700 (local time) on Tuesday 3 September.:"
Deleted thought better of it

[A340Yumyum]

Isn’t it? My source is pretty reliable. You not from BA are you? Tell us what you know?

Roy. Yes I am and this line of the thread has got cock-all relevance to the topic.

[RoyMunson]

Roy. Yes I am and this line of the thread has got cock-all relevance to the topic.
You're right. Apologies. Back to topic.

[sudden twang]

Deleted thought better of it

[wiggy]

..During the IA..

Probably gives a heads up as to the contents of BA's hitherto unspecified "disruption agreement" that they want to introduce as part of the deal.

[hunterboy]

Maybe it will crystallise a few people’s opinions on the pay dispute. I know that virtually everything BA do now is grudging. They really are at war with their own staff. Why anybody would join such a disfunctional company is beyond me. Maybe all UK companies are like this nowadays?

[Busdriver01]

BA just raised the stakes, EASA FTLs min rest roster changes 3 crew to 2 crew etc.

Haven't they flown to EASA regs for a while? What exactly is it they've just introduced?

[wiggy]

Haven't they flown to EASA regs for a while? What exactly is it they've just introduced?

In Longhaul details such as crewing composition, nights off/before after a Long Range sector and umpteen other things are still driven (usually) by Industrial Agreement, not "EASA regs"

[FlightDetent]

Just stating the obvious, but perhaps not so to the outsiders of the profession.

Flying pure EASA FTL to all of its limits is fraught with danger. They have been designed after much industrial struggle, to allow for various and vastly different operational models. Short-haul jet, regional turboprop, WW longrange, night freight, et al. The FTL "envelope" in its individual corners enables some unusually looking things, such as 11:30 stick time a day for a two man crew.

To keep the duty load reasonable (safely non tiring) one cannot venture from one extreme point of the FTL to another, and then another and then all of them. That would not work, fatigue is sure to appear - and hence the requirement for Fatigue Management System.

A group of pilots sharing the same operational mode can be pushed quite hard to the limits in one area for the mutual benefit of their employer's economical longevity - and safely so - as long as they are not made to hit the redlines of all the limits (that had been drawn to allow for another type of flying work).

It could be a very robust Fatigue Report system, national regulation or in-house industrial agreements that assure the pilots are only made to play one "role". Typically an airline would have only one of those three since in peaceful times one is sufficient. Lift the restrictions, stretch people far and wide, and it is heading towards a sorry state.

I understand in the UK the old rules did not allow near as much as the EASA FTL. But it was never ment to be applied in its full extent to one (group of) individual(s). Godspeed.

[JPJP]

He failed his final line check but passed on a second attempt with a more ‘friendly’ trainer.

Shocking news.

That can’t possibly be true. His flying skills are legendary ! Exceeded only by his humility, lack of rat-like cunning, and an innate drive to better his fellow pilots lives. Even if it’s at the expense of his own burning ambitions.

Has anyone ever heard of a DC9 landing so hard that the passenger 02 masks all fall out ? Quite a sight, I assume.

[Lordflasheart]

...
EASA FTLs is the lashup compromise between the demands of the aviation authorities and airlines of twenty eight different nations, with a pre-existing spectrum ranging from sensible evidence-based FTLs, to no previous FTLs at all. I don't think the pilots or unions were allowed much of a lookin.

....

[JPJP]

...
EASA FTLs is the lashup compromise between the demands of the aviation authorities and airlines of twenty eight different nations, with a pre-existing spectrum ranging from sensible evidence-based FTLs, to no previous FTLs at all. I don't think the pilots or unions were allowed much of a lookin.

....

No. It’s common for a Collective Bargaining Agreement to further limit FTL. An example - Delta requires a 3 man crew on any ocean crossing segment. For a Legacy airline like British Airways to have such shockingly bad conditions is surprising. It’s heartening to see the pilot group pushing back.

The “L” stands for ‘Limit’. That’s why they’re not called Flight Time Goals.

[Lordflasheart]

...
Sorry JP, I didn't make myself clear.

What I meant was ...'Not much of a lookin - as to the negotiation and setting of EASA FTLs.'

You are quite correct to say that each airline is at liberty to negotiate with its pilots (or vice versa) as to any lesser ‘industrial’ limits - and quite right too, especially for the Delta example you quote.

The bloke in my pub who claims to be a BA pilot, says BA Longhaul currently works to negotiated ‘industrial’ limits, but BA Shorthaul for some reason already works to EASA limits.

In euro-management-speak, 'limit' seems to be synonymous with 'goal' and the result seems to be permanent exhaustion under their new rostering system.

Don’t ask me why, or if he's correct. We just buy him beer to listen to his flying stories.

...

[wiggy]

Sounds like your mate in the pub is pretty much correct..(including the comment about exhaustion)

BA Shorthaul for some reason already works to EASA limits.

As I recall it that was something to do with BALPA trying to persuade the beancounters at BA to bring the BMI work in house at the time of the merger ( can we call it that?), rather than BA setting up a parallel short haul operation ex LHR with BMI assets ...the fact that only Short haul, only, went almost fully EASA is not unsurprisingly still the source of some..err...angst...

[Twiglet1]

Maybe it will crystallise a few people’s opinions on the pay dispute. I know that virtually everything BA do now is grudging. They really are at war with their own staff. Why anybody would join such a disfunctional company is beyond me. Maybe all UK companies are like this nowadays?
I think there's quiet a few AOC's out there that have good relations with the Union's having gone through "yee who has the last laugh" syndrome. Problem is with Pilots it's always want want want #joking

[NoelEvans]

wiggy's comment that BA Short Haul "went almost fully EASA" is a worry. The trashing of the UK's CAA FTLs (Flight Time Limitations) in favour of EASA's FTLs (Fatigue Target Limitations?) was probably the biggest act of vandalism against flight safety in Britain. I am so glad that my "extended recovery rest period" ('EASA-speak' for 'Days Off') is always many multiples of the EASA 'target' minimum. 'Going almost fully EASA' on FTLs would have been a hugely detrimental change to Ts&Cs. I am almost starting to understand the strike...

[RoyMunson]

A very good article.....
https://insideflyer.co.uk/2019/08/how-not-to-deal-with-labour-disputes-british-airways-edition/

[Twiglet1]

wiggy's comment that BA Short Haul "went almost fully EASA" is a worry. The trashing of the UK's CAA FTLs (Flight Time Limitations) in favour of EASA's FTLs (Fatigue Target Limitations?) was probably the biggest act of vandalism against flight safety in Britain. I am so glad that my "extended recovery rest period" ('EASA-speak' for 'Days Off') is always many multiples of the EASA 'target' minimum. 'Going almost fully EASA' on FTLs would have been a hugely detrimental change to Ts&Cs. I am almost starting to understand the strike...
Noel - My experience is that most UK AOC's took a mature stance on EASA FTL and worked closely with the CAA and Unions to provide protection against any weaknesses in EASA FTL - don't forget the prescriptive limits are similar to what was around in Europe under JAA regs for donkeys years. Some of the regs "trashed" included the early/late/night regs and the factored sectors for sectors over 7hrs - no doubt you want Flight Engineers bought back? There were also some good points to EASA like the acclimatisation rules.There is also the contentious issue of "back to back" long haul and the onus on both AOC and crew members responsibilities towards the C word - Yep EASA FTL is horrible if taken to its limit but I don't know of any UK AOC that does that - for one crews are protected by the Working Time Agreement, normally generous leave allowances, part time agreements and scheduling agreements.
So what 3 years into EASA FTL you need to come up with some examples of "the biggest act of vandalism of Flight Safety in Britain" or is it just perception???

[red9]

I hear the phrase " at war with the management" more and more, which seems really to be the cause of the strike. I dont actually think its about money. It is about how you are treated by your manager. I have only witnessed the short haul middle management and I truly believe that after five other airlines, they are the most bigoted, incompetent, egotistical, uncommunicative, even spiteful people I have ever had this misfortune to meet or fly with. One is ex BMI. I truly wish them there comeuppance (sp ?) . I sincerely hope that the inevitable fall of the slippery ladder is a long one

[Max Angle]

I think the war is with those far higher up the slippery ladder than the Airbus management.

[cessnapete]

I think the war is with those far higher up the slippery ladder than the Airbus management.


Cabin crew member just heard rumours that pilots to lose Staff Travel for 3 years?? Presumably if they Strike.

[Mylius]

Three year freeze on staff travel for strikers (except if you commute, of course). Which is fine because it will take this long before standards improve enough on BA for my family to accept it as a realistic option for our holidays.

[cessnapete]

According to BA HR commuters to loose benefit too from 31/10.
Although usually reinstated as part of any Strike settlement in past CC IA.

[Mylius]

According to BA HR commuters to loose benefit too from 31/10.
Although usually reinstated as part of any Strike settlement in past CC IA.

I took that email to mean commuters could still commute after 31/10 on their usual route to work but would lose all other staff travel “privileges” such as jumpseats to Sydney on their ABCs and the like.

As you say hopefully it’ll get thrown back in.

[finncapt]

Been there about 23? years ago when, I think, Danair pilots were joining us and BA wanted to introduce a different pay scale at LGW.

Management, and the press, painted the same picture as now - "it is all about greedy, overpaid pilots wanting more pay".

We, as BA pilots, were due to strike the next day or as soon as one returned to base.

Usual threats re staff travel.

I was nightstopping in CPH.

The strike was called off the night before when management decided to settle - I was called by BALPA in the hotel in the evening.

It, sadly, will go to the brink as that is all this kind of management understand.

Perhaps it is what they teach them on their MBAs and Harvard courses.

Good luck and don't give in.

[Meester proach]

I must stop reading the daily mail with its , “ greedy captains on an average of £167k want more “ . I’d be surprised if that was the average , and to be fair, if any DM “ journalist” is paid more than £167 a week it’s probably too much .

[NoelEvans]

Twiglet1, you appear to be talking almost entirely about long-haul. I have no desire to bring back Flight Engineers, I have never flown with one and the first model of the type that I fly was developed without flight engineers five decades ago (a few year before my career started).

Short-haul is not the same. EASA FTLs permit seven consecutive 'earlies' totalling 60 duty hours, one "extended recovery rest period", then do it all again. Not a 'perception', it is in black-and-white.

Yes, Working Time Directives will 'protect' against the worst of it and this can be by making use of a Pilot's leave to bring those duty hour averages down (i.e. you have the worst of the FTLs thrown at you just before your leave). But how often have crews heard the response to a query about a duty that "it's legal"?

Your experience that "most UK AOC's took a mature stance on EASA FTL" still implies that not all did.

Only a robust Scheduling Agreement or a good fixed-pattern roster are protection against EASA's 'Fatigue Target Limitations'. (I have the protection of an excellent fixed-pattern roster against long-term fatigue.)

wiggy's comment that BA Short Haul "went almost fully EASA" is a worry.

[Bueno Hombre]

11.5% is 3.7% per year over the 3 year deal - in the most profitable times the airline has ever encountered.

BA so profitable now because of the reduction in the exchange rate GBP/USD.

[Mylius]

According to BA HR commuters to loose benefit too from 31/10.
Although usually reinstated as part of any Strike settlement in past CC IA.

I’ve re-read the strike notice and you’re absolutely right - all strikers, even commuters, will lose ST on 31/10. Apologies.

[hunterboy]

I would have thought that opens BA up to a constructive dismissal case, even if one has to tick a box stating ST is non contractual, funnily enough added after the last staff strike . What a bunch of charmers we work for .

[Twiglet1]

Twiglet1, you appear to be talking almost entirely about long-haul. I have no desire to bring back Flight Engineers, I have never flown with one and the first model of the type that I fly was developed without flight engineers five decades ago (a few year before my career started).

Short-haul is not the same. EASA FTLs permit seven consecutive 'earlies' totalling 60 duty hours, one "extended recovery rest period", then do it all again. Not a 'perception', it is in black-and-white.

Yes, Working Time Directives will 'protect' against the worst of it and this can be by making use of a Pilot's leave to bring those duty hour averages down (i.e. you have the worst of the FTLs thrown at you just before your leave). But how often have crews heard the response to a query about a duty that "it's legal"?

Your experience that "most UK AOC's took a mature stance on EASA FTL" still implies that not all did.

Only a robust Scheduling Agreement or a good fixed-pattern roster are protection against EASA's 'Fatigue Target Limitations'. (I have the protection of an excellent fixed-pattern roster against long-term fatigue.)

wiggy's comment that BA Short Haul "went almost fully EASA" is a worry.

Noel - The CAA had plenty of meeting's in the run up with the major AOC's (and BALPA were there) and most of them had scheduling agreements managing the excesses, or their FRMS managed it. I personally don't know any AOC's that work 7 E/L/N to the excess of EU FTL - I stand to be corrected however. In my experience the biggest change to Pilots with EU FTL is whereas under CAP371 if they sold days off they would likely get these days off replaced to manage the 7/14/28/84 day limits - not the case now with the ERRP.

[Twiglet1]

Loosing Staff Travel note my comment "yee who has the last laugh" mentality

[WhatTheDeuce]

Noel - The CAA had plenty of meeting's in the run up with the major AOC's (and BALPA were there) and most of them had scheduling agreements managing the excesses, or their FRMS managed it. I personally don't know any AOC's that work 7 E/L/N to the excess of EU FTL - I stand to be corrected however. In my experience the biggest change to Pilots with EU FTL is whereas under CAP371 if they sold days off they would likely get these days off replaced to manage the 7/14/28/84 day limits - not the case now with the ERRP.

BA doesn’t have an FRMS. They use slow reactive management based on reporting.

7 earlies all possible, including the time change to local time. (12 hour duty on day 2 with a hotel pick up of 4am UK time).

[cessnapete]

I would have thought that opens BA up to a constructive dismissal case, even if one has to tick a box stating ST in non contractual, funnily enough added after the last staff strike . What a bunch of charmers we work for .

In my 30+ years in BA it was always a confrontational style Management.Never understood the mentality, as happy crews save money!
My present BA relative says pissing off the pilots costs money in the long run. Crews already refusing Duty extension and loading extra fuel, cost a lot on an A380.

[macdo]

Good luck, I hope you get an outcome that is fair.

[UAV689]

I quick look at flight radar this morning at 8am shows only 19 ba kites flying.

that is unity! Well done BA crews, backing you all the way.

[Dannyboy39]

I quick look at flight radar this morning at 8am shows only 19 ba kites flying.

that is unity! Well done BA crews, backing you all the way.


Didn't BA themselves cancel the flights unilaterally? As they had no knowledge who would show up for work. Something like 50++ aircraft and their crews are stuck downroute in hotels poolside because LHR hasn't the space to park them all.

Was Cruz on the BBC this morning seriously suggesting that the average BA pilot earns £167,000?!

[wiggy]

Was Cruz on the BBC this morning seriously suggesting that the average BA pilot earns £167,000?!

That seems to be the SOP figure being trotted out...I wonder if that "average" figure is the mode, median or mean?

[Dannyboy39]

That seems to be the SOP figure being trotted out...I wonder if that "average" figure is the mode, median or mean?

Or just a total lie?

[beamer]

As an outsider looking in, I thought the BBC R4 report on the strike this morning was well-balanced with Balpa giving every opportunity to give their side of the argument. Average salary quoted as £100k not as reported elsewhere. If the pilots at BA believe that standards in the Company have reduced to an unacceptable level then I would agree with them; travel with the 'worlds favourite airline' may be fine and dandy in First Class but in economy it is quite dreadful and I would always choose an alternative carrier if one were a available on a given route. Management arrogance is not unique to BA, cost-cutting rules the day everywhere and in most airlines pilots have long since realised that they are just numbers and in no way a special case as far as the Board are concerned.

[Paul Lupp]

There was someone from the BALPA union on the BBC this morning (R4) stating that BA (Management) had chosen to cancel all flights today.

Well, they weren't left with much choice, were they, if BALPA instructed all the pilots to refuse to fly planes by going on strike.
It appears to me that the confrontation is coming from both sides, not a good way to run any company, let alone an airline

[wiggy]

Well, they weren't left with much choice, were they, if BALPA instructed all the pilots to refuse to fly planes by going on strike.


(My emphasis)

Point of order regarding the above - contrary to popular belief not all the pilots in BA are members of BALPA and it is possible of course that some BALPA members may have chosen to ignore union instructions.

[Paul Lupp]

^
Well apologies if I got it wrong, but the general gist is that if a significant majority of pilots were instructed by their union not to report for work (or voted not to work and then received support to go on strike), then "management" was left with little option

[TURIN]

Was Cruz on the BBC this morning seriously suggesting that the average BA pilot earns £167,000?!

Yes he did. He even went on to suggest that the figure will be over £200,000 when expenses and bonuses are taken into account.

What a guy!

[wiggy]

^
Well apologies if I got it wrong, but the general gist is that if a significant majority of pilots were instructed by their union not to report for work (or voted not to work and then received support to go on strike), then "management" was left with little option

That "gist" is certainly a more accurate summary than saying BALPA " instructed all the pilots to refuse to fly planes".

Whether the company had options or not is another matter.

[RoyHudd]

I note a few flights are still operating out of LHR. Would I be right to assume that management pilots are flying them?

[Meester proach]

Titan 75 and I think, wamos or envelop 330 flying out of Gatwick using speedbird callsigns .

[RetiredBA/BY]

Is it my hearing or did Cruz refer to his company on Sky News as British Airlines.

British AIRWAYS please Snr Cruz !

Well here is a proposal to end this deadlock.

Give the pilots what they are striking for BUT in a structured way.

Give the pilots HALF of the current offer now, which will be paid regardless.

The remainder to be paid ONLY IF the profit reaches a level which triggers directors bonuses OR some other agreed amount, say 1b, when the results are published and at the same time as the directors are paid THEIR bonus.

So, Cruz , saves money now, and pays the remainder ONLY if and when the money comes in.

Face saved all round, BA gets back flying with motivated pilots NOT carrying extra fuel etc. and cost effective all round.

Trash this idea if you wish BUT it is basically how I ran my small aviation business and it worked.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

I note a few flights are still operating out of LHR. Would I be right to assume that management pilots are flying them?

Perhaps, but of course there are a number of Pilots not in the Union and possibly a few that are but have chosen to go to work anyway.

In any case, withdrawing your labour from your employer is an enormously difficult and personal decision. I know my position as a BALPA member (sat at home with a coffee and sky news) but if others feel differently then that's absolutely fine too. We're Professionals first and foremost and should continue to act accordingly, treating our colleagues with respect and courtesy regardless of their own decision today and going forward.

Our biggest weapon in any dispute with our employer will always be unity and respect for each other as a professional community is paramount to achieving that.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Is it my hearing or did Cruz refer to his company on Sky News as British Airlines.

Yes!

Just been repeated! Brilliant.

[HadEnough]

Its now on Youtube....

Alex Cruz on Sky News (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAy6hH8Pc0U&feature=youtu.be)

[Ancient Observer]

A couple of quick points.
1. No TU can "instruct" its members to do anything. They could only do that in the past when there were closed shops. Only the RMT tries to do that nowadays. BALPA asked its members what THEY wanted to do about BA. They replied more or less unanimously. The "Instructions" were from the members to the TU.

2. The word "average" is being misused. The BA pilot total fraternity have average pay of roughly £100k.

[Paul Lupp]

I wonder how busy the shops in Terminal 5 are? There is certainly much less "air noise" around the south-west of London this morning......

[Ancient Observer]

Mr "Would you buy a second hand car from this man" is paid approx £1.4m. 14 times what a pilot gets.

Er, if it is him, or 14 Nigels/Ruperts, then I would go for the 14. (What do the Navy call their pilots?)

As an aside, no parents are calling their children Nigel anymore. Where will BA get their pilots from?

[Arfur Dent]

Great thing about these strikes -ie BA and Ryanair is that it tends to stop the continual attack on COS everywhere against the sharp end of aviation ~ the Aircrew.
Post Mr O'Leary and his ignoramus comments we have "Shock Horror" that BA A380 Captains earn approx £200,000!! I say that's the minimum they deserve. Of course it sounds a lot if you add 11% to such a number but these pilots are at the top of the tree! What do people want them to earn?? Remember they are at the pinnacle of their careers and have earned their rank/position over decades of being tested and examined very 6 months of their Airline lives and have maintained an outstanding level of professional knowledge and performance.
Who else do we want in charge when the **it hits the fan??
Good on you Lads and Lassies. My daughter wants to be a pilot and you'll be doing her a great favour.
Thank You.

[flite idol]

I won't wax lyrical in my appreciation for the stand the pilots of BA are making on behalf of all in this downtrodden profession. Many of us at lower profile airlines are facing the same fight with greedy executives. Suffice it to say if I encounter any BA crew down line the beers are absolutely on me. You have proven we can still stand strong. Thank you.

[Twiglet1]

BA doesn’t have an FRMS. They use slow reactive management based on reporting.

7 earlies all possible, including the time change to local time. (12 hour duty on day 2 with a hotel pick up of 4am UK time).
In that case i'll shut up and eat my hat.
Good luck

[cessnaxpilot]

All the publication of “average salary” is a red herring. It doesn’t really matter, but the company uses it to try and say the pilots are unreasonable. What someone makes isn’t tied to how smart they are or how valuable they are... it’s what the market will bear. The modern society controlled by big business tries to always make labor the enemy. Worse yet, so many “common” working people don’t support labor, but rather buy into the false line of thinking pushed by the big corporations. Should your working 12 hour duty days, being gone from home countless days, studying for sim checks, etc etc enrich the shareholder? Management? We don’t want to kill the golden goose, but record profits are record profits.

I have a skill the company needs and I’m not easy to replace. I’ll leverage that to protect my livelihood and support my family. I work hard, I’m professional, and I emphasize safety. I know my colleagues at BA do the same! It takes years of training and skill to get to that level, so there is no reason you should settle for less than what the market can support. Especially on the heels of concessions and give backs.

Good luck! We’re with you!

[Marty-Party]

Apologies if this has already been posted. Anyone not turning up for their duty today has had their pay deducted for the entire trip (e.g. 5 - 6 day) not just the days of the strike. It has also been deducted at the credited hours for that trip even though the flight has been cancelled. Office workers would be penalised by one day of pay for each day they didn't work. BA pilots have been penalised by the whole cost of the trip at their full rate. Some have calculated that at this rate of deduction, they will have a negative pay check after missing two rostered trips on strike days.

Additionally, all have lost staff travel for 3 years, lost any company wide bonus for this year, lost any pilot only bonus for 2017-19 as negotiated two years ago, no access to overtime rate to pick up trips (this is probably fair enough), plus no chance to bid for a fleet change on long haul - for ever ! This punishment has been in the planning for several weeks as the emails were sent out within hours of a failed report. If anyone thinks this is not a predetermined program by BA to break BALPA and the pilots then they are being naïve.

So if anyone thinks it will be better to cave in now and accept the consequences, the above shows the aims of BA. Break the pilots and tear up any industrial agreements. I feel sorry for the guys with long careers ahead if this is allowed to happen.

[Doug E Style]

I quick look at flight radar this morning at 8am shows only 19 ba kites flying.

And then there were three... The daylight BOS-LHR has just landed which means just three BA aircraft are airborne worldwide: BA7 LHR-HND, BA16 SIN-LHR and BA15 SIN-SYD. I wonder if that figure will go lower, or even to zero at some point tomorrow.

[wiggy]

And then there were three... The daylight BOS-LHR has just landed which means just three BA aircraft are airborne worldwide: BA7 LHR-HND, BA16 SIN-LHR and BA15 SIN-SYD. I wonder if that figure will go lower, or even to zero at some point tomorrow.






FWIW the current southbound SIN/SYD BA 15 airframe doesn't get back into LHR until early'ish Wednesday AM, so that may well be the "tail end charlie"...

[Officer Kite]

I quick look at flight radar this morning at 8am shows only 19 ba kites flying.

that is unity! Well done BA crews, backing you all the way.
weren't most of the 19 cityflier jets? There were only about 6 heathrow ba jets around 11am, osaka, haneda, lima, charleston , dubai and islamabad if i recall correctly. I didn't check the gatwick fleet though

[foxmoth]

Not sure if it shows the strength of the BA pilots or how little the BA management are trying to operate the flight but TCX operated all their flights, not sure how many Ryanair did, but certainly a lot more than BA have done!

[101917]

Is it a coincidence that senior long haul pilots down route are not on strike, getting paid, along with their allowances while the junior ones back in the UK are on strike and taking a hit on pay and allowances?
I guess that is the fairness of seniority for you.

[WhatTheDeuce]

Is it a coincidence that senior long haul pilots down route are not on strike, getting paid, along with their allowances while the junior ones back in the UK are on strike and taking a hit on pay and allowances?
I guess that is the fairness of seniority for you.

Complete fiction! I would’ve imagine Mon/Tues reports on long haul were pretty senior in any case.

[semmern]

Apologies if this has already been posted. Anyone not turning up for their duty today has had their pay deducted for the entire trip (e.g. 5 - 6 day) not just the days of the strike. It has also been deducted at the credited hours for that trip even though the flight has been cancelled. Office workers would be penalised by one day of pay for each day they didn't work. BA pilots have been penalised by the whole cost of the trip at their full rate. Some have calculated that at this rate of deduction, they will have a negative pay check after missing two rostered trips on strike days.

Additionally, all have lost staff travel for 3 years, lost any company wide bonus for this year, lost any pilot only bonus for 2017-19 as negotiated two years ago, no access to overtime rate to pick up trips (this is probably fair enough), plus no chance to bid for a fleet change on long haul - for ever ! This punishment has been in the planning for several weeks as the emails were sent out within hours of a failed report. If anyone thinks this is not a predetermined program by BA to break BALPA and the pilots then they are being naïve.

So if anyone thinks it will be better to cave in now and accept the consequences, the above shows the aims of BA. Break the pilots and tear up any industrial agreements. I feel sorry for the guys with long careers ahead if this is allowed to happen.

If there ever was a list of reasons not to give in to company demands, this is it!

[101917]

WhatThe Deuce

Your reply demonstrates a lack of knowledge and understanding of the bid system for long haul pilots.

A BA pilot I know did just that, voted for the strike and then bid to be away over the strikes dates. He has also done the same for the end of this month.

[clvf88]

WhatThe Deuce

Your reply demonstrates a lack of knowledge and understanding of the bid system for long haul pilots.

A BA pilot I know did just that, voted for the strike and then bid to be away over the strikes dates. He has also done the same for the end of this month.

Your reply demonstrates a lack of knowledge and understanding of the bid system for long haul pilots.

The bidding window for September closed long before any strike dates were announced, hence that is not possible. They could of swapped trips, but seniority has zero impact on ones ability to accomplish this.

[DrizzyD]

A BA pilot I know did just that, voted for the strike and then bid to be away over the strikes dates. He has also done the same for the end of this month.

Impossible. The September rosters had already been issued when the strike dates were announced. You have been mis-informed.

[red9]

This from the other pprune site :

Anyone considering applying to this company under the current Leadership team, have a good hard look at this post, talk to a few people on the inside and have a good hard think about whether this is the kind of company you want to work for. The intimidatory tactics used on pilots including potentially illegal salary deductions and the complete lack of a duty of care towards its employees (there are stories floating around of non striking pilots who are sole carers for their children being stuck downroute, who have now been told to make their own way home). The behaviour of the company at this point is disgusting and where are the CAA in all this when pilots are being coerced with threats of massive pay deductions way in excess of one day’s worth of strike action? The impact on the mental health of its workforce cannot be understated and is a flight safety risk when they come back to work.

I wouldn’t wish this company on my worst enemy right now.

[wiggy]

Is it a coincidence that senior long haul pilots down route are not on strike, getting paid, along with their allowances while the junior ones back in the UK are on strike and taking a hit on pay and allowances?
I guess that is the fairness of seniority for you.

You're giving the impression you don't really understand how the system works - There's a massive spread of seniority across the Long Haul fleets.

Pilots due to be down route over the strike days pilots were "instructed" to work normally..that will have included both senior and junior pilots, including no doubt some of the newer very junior DEPs who have recently joined the company and gone straight onto the Long Haul Fleets.

OTOH at base, both yesterday and today, plenty of pilots (including some very very senior) did not report and have been impacted financially.


A BA pilot I know did just that, voted for the strike and then bid to be away over the strikes dates. He has also done the same for the end of this month

As others have said it is difficult to see how that was possible under a single pass bidding system where the bid closure date for September work was prior to the announcement of the strike days. Did your BA pilot tell us how/she did this?