Disappointing F35 display at RIAT [Archive]

Doctor Cruces

21st Jul 2019, 17:28

Very disappointed at the display given by the F35 from Marham yesterday at RIAT. It arrived, flew by fast, flew by with the weapons bay doors open then flew by with the lift engine going then flew off.

Come on guys, you have a whizzy supposedly fantastical jet I'm sure it could have done better than that. Or is it so delicate and prone to breaking that this display was all the powers that be felt it prudent to do? If that's so, I am extremely worried!

Disappointed Doc C

Bob Viking

21st Jul 2019, 17:37

Maybe, with a limited number of jets and an operational deployment within their first year of being in the UK, they’ve had more important things to do than commit to a full display work up for one of their few qualified pilots?

The RAF does not let its’ pilots fly full displays in front of thousands of people without a comprehensive training programme.

In the post Shoreham world, what you saw would have been the maximum permissible level of performance within the current constraints. Maybe just be thankful it was able to make an appearance at all?

Maybe wait for next year. Or the year after.

BV

Stu666

21st Jul 2019, 17:51

Not my screen shot, but this was posted on Twitter:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/454x960/67184446_10214158207135372_270090268244443136_n_ee6ff559c1c0 f3693bb3f4e01859bfabdb6649ed.jpg

Kiltrash

21st Jul 2019, 17:56

Have not been for several years as displays had been dumbed down. However did enjoy the single Lancaster over White Water Centre Lea Valley at 3.pm on its way home today. More impressive

Bill Macgillivray

21st Jul 2019, 19:29

Bob V,

I must agree with you, I think it was pretty good that there was an F35 at Fairford at all! They have more important things at the moment, I suspect. I also know from experience (yes, long ago!) that it takes a while to work up and produce a credible display, and I am sure that, in this day and age, that is probably something that needs possibly more finance/airframe and pilot time than is available at this stage. Maybe next year!!

Bill

Doctor Cruces

21st Jul 2019, 19:42

OK, all is forgiven. Eagerly await next year.

nivsy

21st Jul 2019, 20:55

Suppose the tax payer got to have a glimpse on where their hard earned cash is going....

Nige321

21st Jul 2019, 22:58

Suppose the tax payer got to have a glimpse on where their hard earned cash is going....

My tax money pays for the NHS too, doesn't mean I have the desire, or right, to see what they do with it.
Give them a break...

weemonkey

21st Jul 2019, 23:03

f35 operations require simulator certification.

Actually I made that bit up. (Hey if it's ok for LM...)

However, are there any F35 simulators that meet the "simulate full mission" requirements?

More to the point, can they coordinate multinational formation flying "in theatre " for pr photography but not a singleton at the UKs most prestigious public event; perhaps all the tankers were on task..

SASless

21st Jul 2019, 23:16

How long shall we wait to see a P8 Demo?

nivsy

22nd Jul 2019, 04:47

My tax money pays for the NHS too, doesn't mean I have the desire, or right, to see what they do with it.
Give them a break...
I would suggest you do or will or shall have friends or family at some stage who visit a NHS facility. Surprised you don't have a view. Most people do!

Asturias56

22nd Jul 2019, 07:42

tcinbg

22nd Jul 2019, 07:56

Did it fly backwards?

Bob Viking

22nd Jul 2019, 07:58

I’m afraid that is an incredibly naive and ill informed post.

Firstly, should we let the taxpayers decide what we do with all of our assets? We all pay for them but we ask our government to defend our nation and interests. We don’t get a say in how that is done.

Secondly, please enlighten us as to what a full display team involves. Is it just one guy pulling the wings of a jet for a few weekends?

It is a drain on resources that a small fleet does not need.

BV

Mr. Vice

22nd Jul 2019, 08:32

I really don't believe that the F-35 program is so packed with items that they couldn't spare one to give a half decent display - it is after all the tax payers who own the things.

And then people ask "why doesn't the public support defence" - probably because they never see it ................

They never see it because its equipment and its people are currently employed full time in the fight against ISIS in Syria and Iraq.

Just one job amongst others, too many to mention, that keep defence busy around the globe.

When people people are at home they need a break.

More displays=More Kit=More People=More Money that we just don't have. Direct your disappointment at the defence budget, not the people at the coal face getting the job done.

Mr Vice.

nivsy

22nd Jul 2019, 08:42

Or direct not so much at defence budget but poor project management, over running programmes, lack of continuity on a job, poor procurement choices, the list of tax payer money waste is mouth watering and don't get started on external assistance!

Nige321

22nd Jul 2019, 08:49

I would suggest you do or will or shall have friends or family at some stage who visit a NHS facility. Surprised you don't have a view. Most people do!
You really miss the point. I have had cause to visit the NHS a lot recently, however I don'think NHS money should be wasted giving public displays - likewise the MOD... Try actually reading my post...?!

NutLoose

22nd Jul 2019, 08:54

They never see it because its equipment and its people are currently employed full time in the fight against ISIS in Syria and Iraq. When people people are at home they need a break.

And that there opens up another question, if indeed the fleets of everything are so tied up fighting a couple of "minor" wars, that they cannot attend airshows to show the British public where their hard earned cash is going, what happens when we have a full blown one on our own doorstep, if you have no spare capacity in your fleets for those theoretical eventualities, you are fooked, it also begs the question are the UK defences so depleted while these "minor" wars are on going that they are stretched and incapable of putting up an effective defence?....

Incidentally the NHS do roadshows etc

Bob Viking

22nd Jul 2019, 09:14

As an ex military man you must actually know the answer.

In a war of national survival the rules covering harmony and the principle of force elements ‘at rest’ would go out the window.

You don’t have to go out of your way to see doom and gloom all the time.

This thread merely concerns F35 numbers and availability.

You will note that Typhoon DOES have a display team.

BV

nivsy

22nd Jul 2019, 09:40

You really miss the point. I have had cause to visit the NHS a lot recently, however I don'think NHS money should be wasted giving public displays - likewise the MOD... Try actually reading my post...?!
Perhaps you are missing the point in that generally the tax payers see quite regularly what the health service offers. More rarely what the MOD provides and in this case the RAF. On your approach I assume that you wish for the Red Arrows to be disbanded tomorrow and not continue with their expedition to the states for the next couple of.months.....at tax payer expense.

Bob Viking

22nd Jul 2019, 09:59

This is a genuine question to which I do not know the answer.

Are you sure the US trip for the Reds is paid for out of tax payers money?

Critics of the Reds often cite them as a waste of money without realising they cost the nation very little in real terms.

If people want a visible sign of where their money is spent, they are it. Most of the general public would rather see the Reds than an F35 any day of the week.

Still, I suspect you know all of this and your mind is made up so I am probably wasting my time.

I’m on a long road trip though and I have to fill my time somehow.

BV

Treble one

22nd Jul 2019, 11:41

It was a short and sweet display, but it was welcome that 617/208 showed their faces, as I'm sure they've got better things to do than airshows with their limited number of airframes.

The Spanish Harriers were great, so we had a welcome dose of STOVL.

Asturias56

22nd Jul 2019, 11:46

I really don't believe it is a major job to design, test fly a couple of times and make two trips to air display..................

If it is there's going to be trouble if they ever have to fight the Red menace - do they expect Mr Putin to send them a warning and detailed timetable 12 months in advance

Lets face it - they couldn't be bothered ....... and so the military lose another chance to "meet" the public

Bob Viking

22nd Jul 2019, 11:53

If a FJ pilot with 20 years experience (me) is telling you that it is not as simple as you think it is then maybe you could just believe me?

Or just keep pretending you know better than me. Your choice.

BV

Timelord

22nd Jul 2019, 11:58

I really don't believe it is a major job to design, test fly a couple of times and make two trips to air display..................

That is possibly the most I’ll informed quote I have ever seen on prune, and that is quite a claim!

MadJackMcMad

22nd Jul 2019, 12:12

Doctor Cruces

22nd Jul 2019, 12:38

I wish I hadn't said anything now!! I'm getting a bit fed up of PPRuNe now. Every discussion I read seems to end up in a bunfight, not reasoned discussion. I was very happy with the replies I got and should have thought of that myself. End of thread I thought. Oh dear me.

TURIN

22nd Jul 2019, 14:08

Surely the pilots know how to land and take off. A vertical landing followed by a standard take off would not test the metal too much would it?

Bob Viking

22nd Jul 2019, 14:20

Since I have nothing better to do right now I will explain a little further.

What pilots can do and what they can be authorised to do as part of a display are two very different things. Especially since the Shoreham crash.

I feel sure that any RAF or RN F35 pilot could make a decent stab at an interesting display.

Take the Typhoon display as an example. The display pilot will be chosen from several suitably qualified applicants. In fact, due to operational commitments this year’s display pilot is the same as last year to reduce the training burden. He or she will then commence a work up in the first half of the year.

The work up will typicaly be discussed and planned with the input of experienced individuals (the previous seasons display pilot will often serve as the display supervisor for the following season or at least for the work up).

Once the display has been designed it will be practiced at ever decreasing heights until the pilot is able to perform safely and consistently to the display parameters.

During the season the pilot will usually travel with a spare jet and a supervisor (the supervisor will often fly the spare).

The whole process from selection of the pilot to public display approval may take 2-3 months (someone feel free to interject if my timelines are out). Typically there will be about 20-30 flights or maybe more. Especially for a new type such as the F35.

The aim is to have a display that can be performed safely to the enjoyment of the assembled masses.

The senior officer who approved the display has to be satisfied it is safe and interesting enough to justify the expense. For it is he or she that will be in the dock if the jet crashes into a crowd and must prove that all necessary steps were taken to ensure the whole process was adequately thought through.

Display pilots have been removed from their role before when they haven’t performed adequately.

You see, it’s not quite as simple as grabbing a jet and going up diddly up for the crowds. Now more so than ever.

For the F35 there is the added complication of the fact that there are no previous display pilots to speak to. Designing the display from first principles will probably involve asking previous display pilots from other types to get involved.

I hope that helps to explain my earlier posts which may have been a little terse.

BV

Timelord

22nd Jul 2019, 14:28

Ok, reasoned explanation if I may.

When I was first in the RAF in the 70s, what Turin suggests was widely accepted. Unfortunately a lot of pilots got carried away in public and came to grief. After several display related fatalities very rigorous rules about flying in public were introduced. These require any pilot flying in public to be carefully selected, have his appointment confirmed by higher HQ, and have his or her display routine approved. This all happens before Christmas of the year before the display season. Then, in addition to their normal duties, they fly a display practice each day the weather permits. Each practice has to be supervised by a senior officer, probably the Squadron Commander. Over the winter the display altitude is slowly worked down to low level and before it can be performed in public it must receive authorisation from a very senior officer. During the season as well as the pilot an aircraft and a spare have to be provided, and if landing at the venue a team of engineers and spares dispatched by road. This is all in addition to the normal load on the squadron and it’s people, and with the current operational tempo this is often simply not possible.

If if you want more displays write to your MP and demand more money, airframes, people, spares and fewer operational commitments.

Treble one

22nd Jul 2019, 14:28

There was a Hawk display pilot removed from his display duties in the none too distant past for 'overstressing the airframe' I believe. IIRC he was pulling more G than authorised (I'm sure someone can fill in the blanks). This made it into a lot of the daily papers too.

Roland Pulfrew

22nd Jul 2019, 14:29

I really don't believe it is a major job to design, test fly a couple of times and make two trips to air display..................
Lets face it - they couldn't be bothered ....... and so the military lose another chance to "meet" the public

As someone who has been a display supervisor a few times in the past, all before the regulations and rules were tightened up post-Shoreham, I can guarantee you that you are totally and utterly wrong in your ill-informed belief. You can carry on thinking you know better if you wish, or you could listen to BV and learn.

Timelord

22nd Jul 2019, 14:29

Sorry BV, simultaneous typing.

TL

Bob Viking

22nd Jul 2019, 14:34

My post was a bit of an essay. Timelord your timelines may be more accurate than mine and show that they may be even more elongated than I suggest. I’m basing it on what I saw at Valley.

There are others far more knowledgeable than myself about display flying but I think between us we have illustrated that it is not as simple as some folk think.

BV

Asturias56

22nd Jul 2019, 14:59

Thank you Bob, Timelord & Turin for explaining the current Process

I have to say it reminds me a bit of Parkinson's Law - "work expands to fill the time available"

his illustration was that a busy person took all of 5 minutes to write a postcard, stamp it and post it whereas a retired lady of a certain age could spend the whole day on the same job

I wonder if, should a sudden Royal Event or something The Prime Minister wanted to impress a foreign dignitary 6-12 months prep would be required?

Somehow I doubt it.....................

Bob Viking

22nd Jul 2019, 15:10

There is a world of difference between a display and a flypast. Both require high level approval and supervision but a flypast does not take anywhere near as much practice.

Planning for a large flypast may take several weeks but it will usually only entail one or two airborne practices.

I can assure you this is not a case of ‘Parkinson’s Law’. Getting a display right takes practice. I have plenty of Hawk experience but I wouldn’t fly a low level display without a lot of practice. It’s a confidence thing as well as a safety thing.

I have flown many loops in a Hawk. Never below 5000’ feet though. To have the confidence to pull through when the ground looms large in the roof would take some convincing.

BV

Stitchbitch

22nd Jul 2019, 15:33

To see what can happen even after practicing lots: F-16 take off. The same pilot/aircraft landed safely on Sunday after loosing some bits..

Timelord

22nd Jul 2019, 15:36

Asturias,

No, not a process born out of Parkinson’s law but out of many, many avoidable deaths.

TL

nivsy

22nd Jul 2019, 15:52

It was mentioned on Saturday that the F-35 arrived low on fuel, hence it’s display was much shorter and simpler than what we saw on the Friday. The display on the Friday was a “prop display” with hovering etc. rather than just some flybys. Unfortunately, some didn’t know it arrived low on fuel and did a much shorter display, but quickly jumped to the wrong defence.
Um why would it be low in fuel? Not figured out where the fuelling cap is? 😒🙄

Timelord

22nd Jul 2019, 15:58

No idea what went on at RIAT but a common reason for display aircraft to be short of fuel is that they have been held awaiting their slot. Maybe the display was running late and the F35 had to hold for longer than they planned?

H Peacock

22nd Jul 2019, 16:11

I agree that to work up a full 'Display' would have involved an inordinate amount of work and supervision in the short time available That said, a Role Demo could certainly have been put together with far less effort. The latter could still be made dynamic and exciting to watch even if not in the category of an aerobatic display.

If BA can put a 744 up to lead a 10-ship formation at a UK air show then the F35 Force certainly missed a trick!

Finningley Boy

22nd Jul 2019, 16:13

My own take on the situation is, when ever I've seen the F-35A at an air show, and that was very recently at Volkel, the display has been very punchy with plenty of vertical energy climbs. The Volkel aircraft didn't display as such, like the UK F-35B, it did a couple of passes. However, the first was straight from the take off, the jet disappeared out of sight into the stratosphere in full burner. It later returned for a high speed run and break away from the crowd line to repeat the Saturn V impersonation. This was one of two jets which the Dutch currently have at Leeuwarden. Whenever I've seen the 'B', its always been a couple of times round followed by a spot of thrust vectoring then serenely away, as if he doesn't have fuel for anything else?

FB

PS and always with that Bloody lid sticking up like someone's left the hood of the car up at one end or the other!

treadigraph

22nd Jul 2019, 16:56

To see what can happen even after practicing lots: The same pilot/aircraft landed safely on Sunday after loosing some bits..

Trailing edge of the right elevator was a bit ragged after a high speed pass and pull up mid way through the display. Be interested in thoughts how that might have happened, can't see it could have been scraped. Is it composite and delamination?

weemonkey

22nd Jul 2019, 17:55

It was mentioned on Saturday that the F-35 arrived low on fuel, hence it’s display was much shorter and simpler than what we saw on the Friday. The display on the Friday was a “prop display” with hovering etc. rather than just some flybys. Unfortunately, some didn’t know it arrived low on fuel and did a much shorter display, but quickly jumped to the wrong defence.

And WHY was it short of fuel? Because it doesn't have enough to start with?

Perhaps the "chilled bowsers" are in as short supply as well as the, err, buckets fuel capacity??

MPN11

22nd Jul 2019, 19:21

Interesting to note the Spotter/Professional ratio here. Very sad.

Anyway, to display the F-35 properly would mean nobody could see it. ;)

nivsy

22nd Jul 2019, 19:30

[QUOTE=MPN11;10525338]Interesting to note the Spotter/Professional ratio here. Very sad.
Not quite sure how you can tell on that honestly. You the spotter?

MPN11

22nd Jul 2019, 19:33

[QUOTE=MPN11;10525338]Interesting to note the Spotter/Professional ratio here. Very sad.
Not quite sure how you can tell on that honestly. You the spotter?Just observing on the quality of some inputs.

And no, not a Spotter. Spent enough years of my life looking at it professionally to want to go to an air show.

Stitchbitch

23rd Jul 2019, 05:59

Interesting to note the Spotter/Professional ratio here. Very sad

I’d bet that more than a few professionals on here got the aviation bug through going to airshows when they were kids, most then pass this interest on to their kids as well. We should be trying to encourage interest in aviation, after all it only takes a few years (+ enormous holds) to go form small ‘spotter’ to aircrew, or engineer, or even blunty.

BEagle

23rd Jul 2019, 06:13

At least when I went to air displays all those years ago, the spectator line wasn't the province of fat men in silly hats, cargo shorts and camouflaged waistcoats covered in badges, toting hugely expensive camera equipment as they wobble about on little aluminium stepladders.

It might come as a surprise to some to learn that air displays are not put on solely for the benefit of snappers.

RAF F-35B participation at RIAT will undoubtedly have been the best that could be achieved under the constraints of ongoing operations and the relative low levels of experience on type.

heights good

23rd Jul 2019, 06:31

I really don't believe that the F-35 program is so packed with items that they couldn't spare one to give a half decent display - it is after all the tax payers who own the things.

And then people ask "why doesn't the public support defence" - probably because they never see it ................

It is not about sparing the airframe, it is sparing the pilot, flying hours, operational impact, absence from the front-line/training line for 2 hours, having a suitable flying display work up (20-40 hrs of 100% dedicated time to the display) and 20 other factors.

You, or the taxpayer has ZERO right to "see" anything, sorry.

heights good

23rd Jul 2019, 06:39

Um why would it be low in fuel? Not figured out where the fuelling cap is? 😒🙄

Holding or training prior to the display.

nivsy

23rd Jul 2019, 07:05

[QUOTE=nivsy;10525347]Just observing on the quality of some inputs.

And no, not a Spotter. Spent enough years of my life looking at it professionally to want to go to an air show.
I do hear ya. Shame.the top brass don't quite think the same all with their pressed outfits and side kicks on tow rolling into Fairford for corporate hospitality! More of them.than RAF aircraft present.

ASRAAMTOO

23rd Jul 2019, 09:01

Finningley Boy

23rd Jul 2019, 10:46

Once upon a time we retained some aircraft whilst a new one was introduced. The Vulcan wound down as the GR 1 wound up. Lightning’s and Phantoms overlapped the F3.

As a result newly introduced aircraft had time to reach full operational capability. The arb scrapping of the Harrier combined with the premature demise of the GR 4 means the F35 is forced to run before walking.

its little surprise they do not have the resources to generate a display aircraft. I for one would rather the display pilot that is eventually selected has a decent number of hours on type and completes the work up program as outlined by previous posters.

I have no no idea what gate heights would be used on an F35 but suspect they may be different to a Typhoon, Jaguar or GR4.

I think you've made a very good point, an excellent point Sir. Unfortunately, the peace dividend mooted in 1989/90 , albeit fair enough, was then regarded by successive Governments as an opportunity to act in a Gratuitous fashion over Defence spending. Hence the comparisons you make, the GR4 and Harrier should never have gone so early on and nor should the F3 and the Jaguar but the thinking has been purely financial, and certainly political. But wasting money elsewhere with nothing to show has continued through high minded incompetence. Interesting that the Italian Government, committed to buying 90 F-35As and F-35Bs, respectively for their Air Force and Navy also still operate the Tornado and Harrier, alongside their Typhoons and M346s, and, presumably, will carry on the Tornado and Harrier until the F-35s can fully pick the Baton and run! I think they were about the largest contributor to RIAT this weekend, in terms of individual service commitment. A word about air shows in particular, the RAF once upon a time, made a very heavy contribution, the largest of all, to such extra-curricular activities. Today, taking all into account, it is probably the lightest. Air shows yet, have always, and I know for certain, been the last consideration, even in the 80s and earlier, participation, anywhere with anything, had to carry a degree of worthwhile value. But that they could with a wide range of high performance types and could because they actually owned and controlled all they had rather than renting anything, was on its own, a sincere indication of just how robust and flexible the RAF was then.

Meester proach

23rd Jul 2019, 12:18

I’m not surprised they didn’t have time to get a display authorisation for more.....I am surprised the thing is delivered and goes pretty much straight to front line. Doesn’t the typhoon have the capability to bomb ?

Still we still have the typhoon show which is great - I’d love to ask the pilot how he does the last bit - half loop straight to landing - how’s he get enough drag for that ? Very impressive.

Tucanos come back....but what happened to the hawk T2 pair , that was pretty good !

pontifex

23rd Jul 2019, 14:28

Actually Stitchbitch I got my thing for aviation talking to a very pleasant German Me109 pilot who had just been brought in to wait to be picked up. I was about 4 years old. Nevar found out who he was!

T28B

23rd Jul 2019, 21:15

Doctor Cruces

23rd Jul 2019, 21:31

So it would appear T28B

andrewn

24th Jul 2019, 07:34

The Dutch seem able to "display" a '35 without the long tail of workup and backup that a full on display team involves.
Mind you they can also open the gates to a front line base once a year, assemble a decent international presence and display pretty much everything they own in reasonable numbers, on the ground and in the air, the piece de la resistance being the Air Power demo, this years was 10 F-16's, similar number of Helos plus a C130. And get this for a clincher, they do it for free, with a distinct lack of corporates in attendance. You know, as if it it were being done primarily for the benefit of the (tax) paying public.

Crazy concept or what?

andrewn

24th Jul 2019, 07:50

I’m not surprised they didn’t have time to get a display authorisation for more.....I am surprised the thing is delivered and goes pretty much straight to front line. Doesn’t the typhoon have the capability to bomb ?

It's been around for a couple of years now, at least in OT&E, it's just been all US based so relatively invisible to us. The recent op debut in the sandpit will have been very carefully orchestrated, in all ways, from the risk of the thing being shot down to ensuring max PR benefit back home. Good practice all the same. And, yes, Typhoon is now our primary bomb carrying platform since Tornado went OOS.

Tucanos come back....but what happened to the hawk T2 pair , that was pretty good !

Tucano a welcome returnee for its swansong prior to retirement. Hawk pair, agree they were very good, but a one season wonder if I recall? I feel sure BV could give you the inside track on why that was the case...

cyflyer

24th Jul 2019, 23:21

Suppose the tax payer got to have a glimpse on where their hard earned cash is going....

And the Turks got a glimpse of where their cash ain't going to be going. (They spent it on a missile system from the enemy)

Ewan Whosearmy

25th Jul 2019, 07:41

At least when I went to air displays all those years ago, the spectator line wasn't the province of fat men in silly hats, cargo shorts and camouflaged waistcoats covered in badges, toting hugely expensive camera equipment as they wobble about on little aluminium stepladders.

Should they instead wear a panama hat, blazer and silly cravat, like you? Your contempt for ordinary people is staggering.

I remember well the airshows of the 1980s, when people collected badges and stickers, wore bomber jackets festooned with patches, and took lots of photos and video with equally outrageous kit. By contrast, if your baseline is the 1950s, then no wonder you sound so absurdly out of touch.

bobward

25th Jul 2019, 09:37

Gentlemen,
Can we not just have a reasonable discussion without degenerating into snide comments, please?

Ref the comments on the Dutch airshow. Yes it would be nice if the RAF could do a similar thing. However, the sharp end has been effectively at war for over 20 years.
That is where the efforts are going, not into showboating. Please give the guys and girls credit for their sustained efforts into doing the bidding of our politicians.
Whether that bidding is right or wrong is nothing to do with this thread.

Finally, as a spotter of some 50+ years, I tend to side with Beagle re some of my fellow spotters. I never knew so many overweight 30 year old men flew 100 missions+
in Vietnam (or so their badges say). As with all things, it's the few that get to many tarnished.

End of rant, and swift move to garden to dig a slit trench to avoid the incoming.....

Martin the Martian

25th Jul 2019, 13:13

Should they instead wear a panama hat, blazer and silly cravat, like you? Your contempt for ordinary people is staggering.

I remember well the airshows of the 1980s, when people collected badges and stickers, wore bomber jackets festooned with patches, and took lots of photos and video with equally outrageous kit. By contrast, if your baseline is the 1950s, then no wonder you sound so absurdly out of touch.

:D:D:D

And then you get those ones swaggering around wearing flying suits and aviator sunglasses trying to impress the female visitors into thinking they are 3000hr fast jet veterans. Oh, sorry, they're aircrew.

Enough of the sniping at those who are actually interested in being there and pay money to do so, eh?

Video Mixdown

25th Jul 2019, 14:41

Shouldn't this thread be moved to Spotters Corner where it belongs?

Meester proach

25th Jul 2019, 20:59

mopardave

25th Jul 2019, 22:03

I think enthusiasts come in all sizes and shapes and range in intelligence as per the normal population. I’m actually quite heartened when I see small children at the airport gates watching the planes.

one of my former 757 colleagues, had a thing for buses and used to get bus spotter monthly ......he completely brazened out any p... taking by leaving the mag around for us to peruse.

A couple of colleagues have a thing for steam engines, no big deal.

In my former life as a Fire Fighter.....not my first choice of career...... we regularly had visits from fire engine spotters and Fire Brigade enthusiasts.....believe it or not! Some of my colleagues were less than charitable whereas I would accommodate them as best I could because I was doing a job that they'd have loved and would have swapped places with me in a heartbeat! I was brought up not to sneer at or deride those less fortunate than me. As a twice failed OASC candidate, and as a mere spotter, I find this forum mostly fascinating and informative....but sometimes people really do let themselves down. On my last posting prior to retirement, the in house magazine visited us to run a feature about the members of my "watch". We borrowed some racing pigeons and copies of pigeon racing monthly.....or whatever it was called.....had a quick lesson on how to hold a pigeon for the photos (not easy!).....learnt some terminology and we were off! We'd just become a little jaded with the usual stuff....firefighters talking about their body building regimes and other such macho bollox! Anyhow, the abuse and p*ss taking we got was off the clock.....didn't bother us though.....we'd fooled the lot of 'em! Each to their own, eh. Meester proach…..you nailed it there! Ah....happy days! Apologies for the thread drift!

Dan Winterland

26th Jul 2019, 04:41

one of my former 757 colleagues, had a thing for buses and used to get bus spotter monthly ......he completely brazened out any p... taking by leaving the mag around for us to peruse.

I can beat that. One of my colleagues actually drives busses on his days off as an airline pilot!

having done display flying, I can attest there’s considerably more involved than just turning up and having a go at a few loops ands rolls in front of a crowd. The ‘due care’ process is essential to protect the lives of the pilots and the spectators. Shoreham is a perfect example of what can happen when this is not done. I can fully understand why an F35 full display is not being flown this season.

SNator

30th Sep 2019, 15:10

Of course it was short on fuel. 6,000lb and all the space taken up by a lift fan!!

NutLoose

30th Sep 2019, 15:25

Well it must be a pig to fly with those sticks, just look at them, no wonder it needs a computer :O

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1307x1404/50f3a224e16f93799227473a4f314e1e_1d76423a7b8317df6cee7f225ff 1e5cfe1397826.jpg

twb3

30th Sep 2019, 15:50

You may be closer than you think. I know nothing about RAF operations or F-35, but in my previous work life was involved with the F-18 simulator at the manufacturer. One of the things that was done in our sim was developing flight demo routines to be flown by company test pilots. As I recall a long week was spent developing and practicing a display routine only a few minutes long with the demo pilot in the seat and a bunch of experts at the control station. Airshow routines for tactical aircraft are not casual exercises.

57mm

30th Sep 2019, 19:36

NutLoose, there must be some very delicate switchery on both throttle and stick to warrant those protective covers. Never seen that sort of cover on other fighters. Or perhaps they're for security purposes.....

MightyGem

30th Sep 2019, 21:06

OK465

30th Sep 2019, 22:28

No standby instruments?

Right side of the center pedestal, an 'ISIS' type display, not Islamic State but Integrated Standby Instrument System. :}

Treble one

1st Oct 2019, 10:58

No standby instruments?

I bet there are some former EE Lightning drivers looking at that and thinking 'where are all the switches?' Incredible technology. Mostly touchscreen and HOTAS stuff now?

MPN11

1st Oct 2019, 11:26

I'm obviously weird, as I find those covers somewhat phallic. I wonder if they have a nickname within the force? "Left Rabbit" and "Right Rabbit" ? ;)

alf5071h

1st Oct 2019, 14:39

‘I bet there are some former EE Lightning drivers looking at that and thinking 'where are all the switches?'

But have these new ‘inceptors’ more functional switching than on The Lightning radar controller - 21 ?

MightyGem

1st Oct 2019, 19:32

Right side of the center pedestal, an 'ISIS' type display
Seen, thanks.

NutLoose

2nd Oct 2019, 01:56

As you know I do photography, the odd show but being in the industry I tend not to do much aircraft stuff, I do the odd show like Cosford but working at a busy international airport I wouldn't dream of going to sit at the fence and photograph them, however I realise some it is their dream, so if I can help I do, you would be surprised how many I have got to sit in and photograph a Spit, really it's just another aircraft to me, but I realise it's big and small boys dreams, so if I can help I do.

Strangely I tended to favour bird photography, not because I am into birds, but because hides have seats, it's peaceful, relaxing and my prime lenses weigh a ton weight, I just like capturing them at their best and different subjects, you get the "twitchers" that say have you seen the greater spotted lesser humped duck and I just shrug my shoulders and say no.

I've picked up a few species names but most allude me, for me it's about the photography and improving, not really the bird.
i must be doing something right as one of my shots was one of the ten images featured on I think last years BBC TV's Spring Watch page, favourites to photograph has to be Kingfishers, simply because they are rather shy. Sorry for the thread drift but I did feel the need to address some of the adverse comments re photographers. And now perhaps you will allow me one more drift.