Afraid of clouds, IFR, IMC

[Krallu]

Hello,

I am holding an IFR rating but I have limited time in actual IMC conditions.
I know that I am fully capable of shooting approaches and handling all the technical part of flying IFR. Of course I start slowly and increase the difficulty of a flight.
But.. there isnt the technical part of beeing able to fly the aircraft and shoot an approach that worries me.

I found out that I somehow is afraid of the clouds.

During VFR training you where always told to stay away from clouds and specially CB clouds they could kill you. Of course you should stay away from dangerous clouds. But all this have created some fear I guess.

When I fly with an instructor or examiner I feel perfectly relaxed in clouds because I trust the instructor. But when I am solo something happens inside me.

For example, I flew yesterday up to some CU clouds to get the feeling how they felt. Nothing bad happened and they where pretty calm.
But when I started to get close to them with my small PA28 they looked bigger and bigger visually on my windshield and by the time I entered them they looked so big and scary. Even though they where small compared to real big CUs.
My heart rate increased and I strived to feel relaxed.

I felt fear about the unknown. How would the turbulence be in the cloud? A lot of IFs. What if the cloud is evil and pushes me upside down throwing me to the ground?
What if I get out on the other side seeing a big scary CB cloud on the other side striking me with a lightning. What if something scary is inside the cloud.

I felt threatened by the cloud. Even though it was a very small towering CU cloud compared.

Anyone felt like this?
Suggestions?

[Islandlad]

I am holding an IFR rating but I have limited time in actual IMC conditions.

I know that I am fully capable of shooting approaches and handling all the technical part of flying IFR. Of course I start slowly and increase the difficulty of a flight.

I found out that I somehow is afraid of the clouds.

During VFR training you where always told to stay away from clouds and specially CB clouds they could kill you. Of course you should stay away from dangerous clouds. But all this have created some fear I guess.

When I fly with an instructor or examiner I feel perfectly relaxed in clouds because I trust the instructor. But when I am solo something happens inside me.

Suggestions?


I'd say yes, time to quit. Flying is not for everyone and the consequences of persisting despite that can be very serious.

the above was from another of your threads. I think it applies here as well. Preflight fear and flying do not go together in my opinion. Caution yes. Fear. NO.

​​​​​​you clearly have a limited grasp of MET

you have posted about your OCD

you instruct - is this still correct?

the way you write is alarming. Am I alone in thinking this way?

[Krallu]

the above was from another of your threads. I think it applies here as well. Preflight fear and flying do not go together in my opinion. Caution yes. Fear. NO.

​​​​​​you clearly have a limited grasp of MET

you have posted about your OCD

you instruct - is this still correct?

the way you write is alarming. Am I alone in thinking this way?


Hi,

Seems people jump to conclusions very fast here I see.
Anyhow this is only text and you can't possible know everything from just text.

I would say this phenomenon is quite common. People today gets there IFR ratings without a minute in real IMC that would scare most pilots to enter their first clouds.
Sorry for using the word fear but take a look at this article written by a 15000 hour captain. He uses the word fear for first time IMC flights.
Read it and tell me what you think. :)

https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/technique/imc-fear-and-foolishness/

[B2N2]

Hello,

I am holding an IFR rating but I have limited time in actual IMC conditions.
I know that I am fully capable of shooting approaches and handling all the technical part of flying IFR. Of course I start slowly and increase the difficulty of a flight.
But.. there isnt the technical part of beeing able to fly the aircraft and shoot an approach that worries me.

I found out that I somehow is afraid of the clouds.

During VFR training you where always told to stay away from clouds and specially CB clouds they could kill you. Of course you should stay away from dangerous clouds. But all this have created some fear I guess.

When I fly with an instructor or examiner I feel perfectly relaxed in clouds because I trust the instructor. But when I am solo something happens inside me.

For example, I flew yesterday up to some CU clouds to get the feeling how they felt. Nothing bad happened and they where pretty calm.
But when I started to get close to them with my small PA28 they looked bigger and bigger visually on my windshield and by the time I entered them they looked so big and scary. Even though they where small compared to real big CUs.
My heart rate increased and I strived to feel relaxed.

I felt fear about the unknown. How would the turbulence be in the cloud? A lot of IFs. What if the cloud is evil and pushes me upside down throwing me to the ground?
What if I get out on the other side seeing a big scary CB cloud on the other side striking me with a lightning. What if something scary is inside the cloud.

I felt threatened by the cloud. Even though it was a very small towering CU cloud compared.

Anyone felt like this?
Suggestions?

I don't think there is anything wrong with this.
Apprehension and fear are normal survival instincts.
If it makes you feel better I was always nervous when going into IMC.
No more obviously but it takes a long time to get comfortable.
The only solution is exposure at a slow rate.
Couple of tricks that will help;
Fly IFR/IMC in stratiform clouds and avoid cumuliform for now.
Stariform is generally calm without turbulence while cumuliform is always bumpy.
When its overcasts at 6000' then fly at 7000' knowing that clear air is just minutes below you.
When its overcast at 5000' then fly at 6000' and so on as you get more comfortable.

Always, always ALWAYS leave yourself more then one way out.
DO NOT fly in any type of 'serious' IMC without some sort of weather equipment be it Ipad based or Nexrad downlaoded wx on your Garmin GPS.

@islandlad, since you've yet to add anything meaningful to the forum in the time you've been a member and "Private Pilot" is not an occupation here I'm gonna go ahead and call you an idiot.

[Islandlad]

@islandlad, since you've yet to add anything meaningful to the forum in the time you've been a member and "Private Pilot" is not an occupation here I'm gonna go ahead and call you an idiot.

B2N2

take a look at KRALLU posts and thread topics

he has been here a few times before

2003 - 2004 - 2009 - 2011 - 2012 - 2013 - 2019

and a flying INSTRUCTOR!

just adding something meaningful :)

you are right .... I should not have posted anything ... idiot! :ugh:

[Krallu]

I don't think there is anything wrong with this.
Apprehension and fear are normal survival instincts.
If it makes you feel better I was always nervous when going into IMC.
No more obviously but it takes a long time to get comfortable.
The only solution is exposure at a slow rate.
Couple of tricks that will help;
Fly IFR/IMC in stratiform clouds and avoid cumuliform for now.
Stariform is generally calm without turbulence while cumuliform is always bumpy.
When its overcasts at 6000' then fly at 7000' knowing that clear air is just minutes below you.
When its overcast at 5000' then fly at 6000' and so on as you get more comfortable.

Always, always ALWAYS leave yourself more then one way out.
DO NOT fly in any type of 'serious' IMC without some sort of weather equipment be it Ipad based or Nexrad downlaoded wx on your Garmin GPS.

@islandlad, since you've yet to add anything meaningful to the forum in the time you've been a member and "Private Pilot" is not an occupation here I'm gonna go ahead and call you an idiot.


Thanks B2N2.
That is good tips to start working with my feeling to enter clouds. I will take them into consideration.
Therefore I wrote here to get some suggestions and good support from equally minded. :)

[Krallu]

B2N2

take a look at KRALLU posts and thread topics

he has been here a few times before

2003 - 2004 - 2009 - 2011 - 2012 - 2013 - 2019

and a flying INSTRUCTOR!

just adding something meaningful :)

you are right .... I should not have posted anything ... idiot! :ugh:


Yes, so? Been a few times. That is true. Whats wrong with visiting only a few times?

Instructor yes. But as you know there is many different instructor ratings. Mine is for VFR flight only. We are many instructors who only are allowed to instruct VFR pilots. That doesnt make me any more confident in flying into clouds IFR on my spare time.
It can make me confident in other areas but to touch clouds my instructor rating doesnt give me anything.

I can answer the OCD part as well.
Yes, I was at a time in my life diagnosed with a certain type of OCD. But according to medical professionals it doesnt affect any of my flying. Don't know how much you know about OCD or if you are just guessing it should be bad to have it.
If you know about OCD then you also know that OCD doesnt make you any less capable of doing complex tasks and this type of OCD does not involve fear of clouds. So even if it is none of your buisness how my medical health is, this OCD is handled and taken care of and I am good to go flying.

So with all respect, what from my background should prevent me from getting support from equally minded people on this forum regarding nervousness flying into clouds? :)

[Islandlad]

So with all respect, what from my background should prevent me from getting support from equally minded people on this forum regarding nervousness flying into clouds? :)

You did ask for suggestions :)

PS there is an excellent thread on the subject started in 2012. Contributions from many highly regarded PPRUNE contributors, rather like B2N2.

Take a read of it. The first question the OP asks is very interesting :)

Contact him, I'm sure you'll get on like a house on fire :)IFR IMC scary?Subscribe (https://www.pprune.org/subscription.php?do=addsubscription&t=496859)
#1 (https://www.pprune.org/7442504-post1.html) (permalink (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/496859-ifr-imc-scary.html#post7442504))
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Krallu (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu) , 1st Oct 2012 07:23
Am I unnormal ?

I hold a fATPL, CPL, ME/IR, MCC.

ORTime to quit flying?Subscribe (https://www.pprune.org/subscription.php?do=addsubscription&t=516152)
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Krallu (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu) , 2nd Jun 2013 11:27


Just a suggestion :)

OR THIS ONEIFR flying, new IR rated, cumulus cloudsSubscribe (https://www.pprune.org/subscription.php?do=addsubscription&t=456865)
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Krallu (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu) , 9th Jul 2011 11:24
Hi all aviation people.
Wish you à nice and good summer in the skies.

I am not totally new to flying but quite new to IFR flying. A year or so. I thought i share some experience with some questions for you more experienced IFR pilots.

and more sound advise hereIFR IMC FlyingSubscribe (https://www.pprune.org/subscription.php?do=addsubscription&t=369142)
#1 (https://www.pprune.org/4846747-post1.html) (permalink (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/369142-ifr-imc-flying.html#post4846747))
https://www.pprune.org/images/mobile/misc/unknown.gif (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu)
Krallu (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu) , 8th Apr 2009 07:24


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https://www.pprune.org/images/mobile/misc/unknown.gif (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu)Krallu (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu)*, 25th Feb 2004 21:38
Hi!

If I was to take an Intstrument Rating to my SE Piston PPL licence. How bad weather can I be prepared to be able to fly in?*

If we say that the airport and airplane are certified to do that.

So to the what from my background should prevent me from getting support from equally minded people on this forum regarding nervousness flying into clouds? :)

Nothing other than the fact you have done it already, quite a few times.

Don't delete this one. I hope to see you again in 2021 and 2024. It will have been 20 years by then :E

[Genghis the Engineer]

Flight in real cloud is quite different to flight under the hood, it's dark, you're getting bounced about, control can be difficult, there's no quick way out by ripping the hood off. You never totally know what's in there. Damned right it's scarey.

My advice? Do it, plan - and I mean plan in excruciating detail, simple IFR trips that'll take you through benign Cu or marginal visibility but no real nasty weather. Do this reasonably often. Slowly build up your confidence, and (really really importantly) develop a realistic understanding of conditions and how you respond to them. Again, slowly, start doing longer real IFR trips, and start bringing yourself down from initially not taking an approach with, say, less than a 1000ft cloudbase, towards your legal minimums.

Also remind yourself of the really useful guidance from the US FAA on personal minima checklists. The ASA IR Oral test guide has good stuff on that.

Instrument flying is not a natural act, it's perfectly reasonable to be nervous of it - probably only a fool is not, especially if not very experienced in it (yet), and especially in real IMC.

G

(UK IR(R) for 7 years, US IR for 2 months, still learning, but living in a country with lots of real IMC so have taken that journey, and experienced that fear and unfamiliarity.)

[scifi]

Nobody has mentioned the possibility of bumping into other planes. When VFR flying, the first rule is 'See and Avoid'. So why put yourself in a position where this is not possible..?
Also, if you are paying £2 for every minute, surely you want to see the scenery you are flying over.

[FullWings]

Try a bit of gliding. You will soon love clouds... :)

[lobby]

Have you tried gliding? It may help you get over your fear of clouds. It will give you the opportunity to fly very close to, if not in some quite large ones. You will definitely gain a good understanding of what is going on in and around them.

[lobby]

Great minds FullWings. I have spent most of my flying chasing the big angry looking clouds.

[Krallu]

You did ask for suggestions :)

PS there is an excellent thread on the subject started in 2012. Contributions from many highly regarded PPRUNE contributors, rather like B2N2.

Take a read of it. The first question the OP asks is very interesting :)

Contact him, I'm sure you'll get on like a house on fire :)IFR IMC scary?Subscribe (https://www.pprune.org/subscription.php?do=addsubscription&t=496859)
#1 (https://www.pprune.org/7442504-post1.html) (permalink (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/496859-ifr-imc-scary.html#post7442504))
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Krallu (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu) , 1st Oct 2012 07:23
Am I unnormal ?

I hold a fATPL, CPL, ME/IR, MCC.

ORTime to quit flying?Subscribe (https://www.pprune.org/subscription.php?do=addsubscription&t=516152)
#1 (https://www.pprune.org/7873674-post1.html) (permalink (https://www.pprune.org/questions/516152-time-quit-flying.html#post7873674))
https://www.pprune.org/images/mobile/misc/unknown.gif (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu)
Krallu (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu) , 2nd Jun 2013 11:27


Just a suggestion :)

OR THIS ONEIFR flying, new IR rated, cumulus cloudsSubscribe (https://www.pprune.org/subscription.php?do=addsubscription&t=456865)
#1 (https://www.pprune.org/6561117-post1.html) (permalink (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/456865-ifr-flying-new-ir-rated-cumulus-clouds.html#post6561117))
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Krallu (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu) , 9th Jul 2011 11:24
Hi all aviation people.
Wish you à nice and good summer in the skies.

I am not totally new to flying but quite new to IFR flying. A year or so. I thought i share some experience with some questions for you more experienced IFR pilots.

and more sound advise hereIFR IMC FlyingSubscribe (https://www.pprune.org/subscription.php?do=addsubscription&t=369142)
#1 (https://www.pprune.org/4846747-post1.html) (permalink (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/369142-ifr-imc-flying.html#post4846747))
https://www.pprune.org/images/mobile/misc/unknown.gif (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu)
Krallu (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu) , 8th Apr 2009 07:24


AndInstrument RatingSubscribe* (https://www.pprune.org/subscription.php?do=addsubscription&t=120455)
* #1 (https://www.pprune.org/1198923-post1.html)*(permalink (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/120455-instrument-rating.html#post1198923)) *
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Krallu (https://www.pprune.org/members/73745-krallu)*, 25th Feb 2004 21:38
Hi!

If I was to take an Intstrument Rating to my SE Piston PPL licence. How bad weather can I be prepared to be able to fly in?*

If we say that the airport and airplane are certified to do that.

So to the

Nothing other than the fact you have done it already, quite a few times.

Don't delete this one. I hope to see you again in 2021 and 2024. It will have been 20 years by then :E



True. I have made some previous threads about IFR weather and what can you fly through or not. They possess a lot of good information for sure.*
But I havent made a thread about the psychological part and nervousness aspect of actually entering the clouds until now. The previous thread was for more the scientific part of what cloud can you enter or not.*
This was more the question how to you handle your own doubt and nervousness or call it fear if you want to actually do it.

More like the human factors part of IMC than MET part of it.*

Anyhow I can read between your lines a somewhat hostile or making funny of me part. I wonder whats wrong with just beeing friendly and professional about it even still there is previous threads about similar topics?*
I do my best to respond friendly to you. :)
*

[Genghis the Engineer]

Nobody has mentioned the possibility of bumping into other planes. When VFR flying, the first rule is 'See and Avoid'. So why put yourself in a position where this is not possible..?
Also, if you are paying £2 for every minute, surely you want to see the scenery you are flying over.

That's why most times and places, you look to fly IFR in controlled airspace with a radar service such as a "traffic service" in the UK, or "flight following" in the USA.

Not always possible, but it's a sensible ideal.

G

[BEagle]

A Traffic Service in Controlled Airspace? That's a new one on me....

[Romeo Tango]

I very much recognise this fear of clouds. During initial training and reading Pilot magazine etc one is told that death is almost certain if one flies anywhere near, let alone inside, clouds.
For example see: YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=vfr+pilot+in+cloud)

I have had an IR for 30+ years but I still have a background worry "should I be here" when inside a cloud even though I have never had any trouble staying the right way up on instruments.

Like all fears they have to be conquered by doing it, start simple and build from there.

[Genghis the Engineer]

A Traffic Service in Controlled Airspace? That's a new one on me....

Okay, traffic service outside. Either or, my bad.

G

[piperboy84]

If flying is your hobby and it scares you so much, why not try something else ? Lawn bowling, ballroom dancing or even train spotting? You don’t have to fly so why put yourself thru such misery? There’s no point, life is short and nobody is getting out of here alive.

[Romeo Tango]

If flying is your hobby and it scares you so much, why not try something else ? Lawn bowling, ballroom dancing or even train spotting?

The OP has asked a genuine question. You may be arrogant/brave/stupid enough to be never afraid of anything but that's not how it works for everyone. In my book people who conquer fear are the better ones. On my part various things in flying made me nervous (first solo, IR test etc) but I did them and I'm glad I did.

[Hyperdark]

The OP has asked a genuine question. .

Basicaly the same question for 8 years

[Genghis the Engineer]

Oh leave the man alone, I think that you could find a few repetitive questions by me too.

It's a legitimate concern - why not leave those prepared to provide a meaningful answer to do so, and just leave the thread if you're not interested in engaging with it.

G

[piperboy84]

The OP has asked a genuine question. You may be arrogant/brave/stupid enough to be never afraid of anything but that's not how it works for everyone. In my book people who conquer fear are the better ones. On my part various things in flying made me nervous (first solo, IR test etc) but I did them and I'm glad I did.

As an amateur flyer my rear puckers up with a healthy dose of trepidation upon entering clouds, if it paralysed me with fear as I think the OP is describing (especially after all the tickets/training he’s got) then that’s a dangerous and unhealthy situation that would see me either hanging up the headsets or staying strictly VFR.

[Romeo Tango]

A little bit of fear is good ..... it makes you careful!