Korean Air defends pilot who tried to drink alcohol during flight

[RevMan2]

Independent headline.
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/korean-air-pilot-drunk-champagne-alcohol-wine-cabin-crew-demoted-a8996711.html

TLDR: Captain demanded alcohol twice during flight, cabin crew refused, reported 2nd incident to CSM who logged a report.

CSM demoted, captain gets invited for a chat.

KE spokesperson: “It’s true the captain made a controversial action, but it didn’t cause real trouble,”

You’d think/hope we’re past the “respect/entitlement culture” thing, but we’re not.
Fons Trompenaar’s “Riding the waves of culture” is a good read on the subject in general and Asian culture in particular

[T28B]

/not as mod
I'd like to applaud the cabin crew for sticking to their/her guns.
Did they/she get a proper pat on the back for doing the right thing?
From the article, we read this
But while the captain merely received a verbal warning, the manager was demoted for causing conflict onboard the flight.
If true, it would seem to disincentivise doing the right thing. :uhoh:

[Grav]

I'm quite shocked after reading the article, if all which is reported is correct, for the pilot's absurd request and expecially for the way the airline managed the incident. I expected a lot more in terms of safety culture from Korean Air. As T28B said above, it would be no surprise that the next time the crew member withnessing such inappropriate behaviour won't report it.

[Airbubba]

Here's the original Korea Times article:

Cabin crew chief demoted for leaking incident

By Park Si-soo

A Korean Air pilot allegedly attempted to drink cups of alcoholic drink during a flight in December. But the airline shrugged it off and disciplined a cabin crew chief who reprimanded the pilot and reported the case to the company, broadcaster CBS reported on Tuesday.

The incident happened on Dec. 30 on an Amsterdam-bound Korean Air flight from Incheon, South Korea. According to CBS, the captain, while walking past a tray of welcoming drinks, tried to pick up a glass of champagne. As a cabin crew member blocked him, saying "you can't drink alcohol," the captain said, "Then you can give it (to me) in a paper cup" and then picked up a non-alcoholic drink.

Hours later, in the middle of the flight, the captain asked the cabin crew to bring "a cup of wine." The crew member refused and reported the case to the cabin crew chief.

The chief told crew members, including the co-pilot, on condition they would remain silent until landing. The decision was made out of concern that if the captain knew it might destabilize his mental state.

But the co-pilot told the captain before landing, causing an on-board altercation between the cabin crew chief and the co-pilot. After landing in Amsterdam, the cabin crew chief formally complained and wrote about the incident on the company's anonymous online message board.

Korean Air summoned the captain and the cabin crew chief. Then came a surprise ― the company closed the case with a verbal warning to the captain and demoting the cabin crew chief for being responsible for the in-flight conflict.

Korean Air called the decision "fair."

"It's true the captain made a controversial action, but it didn't cause a real trouble," a Korean Air official said.

Regarding the demotion of the cabin crew chief, the official said the chief was responsible for using "insulting words during the altercation and revealing the internal issue."

Korean Air shrugs off pilot's attempt to drink alcohol during flight (http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=271980)

[Nomad2]

​​​​​Smells like BS to me.
Either from the press, the cabin crew or the Airline.

I've met a few thirsty pilots over the years, but zero that actually drank while on duty.

Calling BS on this one.

[RevMan2]

@ Nomad2
Let’s just take it in sequence.
Cabin crew. If it’s BS, why did the airline’s spokesperson confirm it?
Airline. Ditto
Press. Ditto

[fleigle]

Aaah, the old "shoot the messenger", not unheard of in many cultures, sadly.
f

[capngrog]

From the way this has apparently been handled by Korean Air Management, I'm surprised the Captain hasn't filed a complaint about the poor cabin service.

Cheers,
Grog

[MemberBerry]

SLF here, this made me angry enough that I filed a complaint on Korean Air's website.

https://i.imgur.com/ztKe5Ts.png

[Eric Janson]

I've met a few thirsty pilots over the years, but zero that actually drank while on duty.
I'm familiar with one case at an Airline I was working for - during a flight. Hard to believe but it has happened and will happen again.

[UltraFan]

This is very strange. If you read the article the sequence of events was:

1. Pilot asked for a drink.
2. FA told the crew chief.
3. Crew chief told the co-pilot (who sits right next to the pilot)
4. The captain is no longer mentioned, but the co-pilot and crew chief start a fight.
5. The crew chief was demoted for insulting the co-pilot and starting a fight, NOT for reporting the captain's request for a drink.
6. The story was unveiled seven months later.

After the "nuts incident" Korean Air is an easy target, but this sounds too weird to be true. The airline says captain's actions "didn't cause trouble"? No way a flag-carrier could respond like that. We only know Korean Air's reaction from the Korea Times newspaper, hardly a trustworthy source. Did they give a link to an official Korean Air statement?

I agree with people calling BS on this.

[Auxtank]

Send a strongly worded letter of complaint to here:

[email protected]

Citing the Independent article from here:
https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/korean-air-pilot-drunk-champagne-alcohol-wine-cabin-crew-demoted-a8996711.html

[act700]

Perhaps the Koreans should be allowed to have a ‘before descent drink’...maybe then they won’t be scared to fly faster than VLS and won’t cause traffic jams at major airports around the world!!!

[aterpster]

I'm quite shocked after reading the article, if all which is reported is correct, for the pilot's absurd request and expecially for the way the airline managed the incident. I expected a lot more in terms of safety culture from Korean Air. As T28B said above, it would be no surprise that the next time the crew member withnessing such inappropriate behaviour won't report it.
Alas, I am not at all surprised. I worked on the KAL 801 accident at Guam. In three days of NTSB hearings in HNL, I got a good look at the senior management of KAL.

[tdracer]

Alas, I am not at all surprised. I worked on the KAL 801 accident at Guam. In three days of NTSB hearings in HNL, I got a good look at the senior management of KAL.

After a rather disastrous decade of the 1990s, Korean had a massive shakeup around the year 2000 - including bringing in more western expat pilots and teaching proper CRM. I was heavily involved in a KAL incident investigation about 10 years ago, when they had a very serious malfunction of a PW4000 engine on a 747-400F (a failure that wasn't supposed to be able to happen). I also got a good look at the management and saw little that I considered objectionable - either by KAL or by the ARAIB (the Korean investigative board). While the KAL maintenance people did miss some warning signs leading up the incident, they followed the Maintenance Manual and Fault Isolation Manual instructions - it would have taken some pretty intimate system knowledge to have connected the dots as to what was really happening. The KAL people were particularly interested in if the flight crew had done anything wrong (they hadn't - everything they did was per the book).
In short, the KAL of today is only distantly related to the KAL of the 1980s and 1990s. While I'm not prepared to call BS on the story, I strongly suspect that the story has been greatly distorted in the telling.

[Tomaski]

Reading the Korean Times article, I get the feeling that the cabin crew chief was primarily disciplined for leak the info to the press. Not that this is right, but some companies do have so pretty draconian non-disclosure policies.

[JumpJumpJump]

I'm going to go with...

Sequence of events is true....

... But.....

I reckon the captain put his hand out to the drinks making a bad joke, with no intent to drink, and likely in the preboarding moments with no passengers on board... The Cabin Manager pulled him up on this and they bickered a little... Later in the flight the Captain twisted the knife with the poor joke along the lines of..

Cabin Manager: Would you guys like anything to drink
Captain: Yes "Bring me wine" haha guffaw guffaw etc.

No flag carrier management would have come to this decision otherwise.

I'm not the sort to defend all pilots in all circumstances... Would be interesting to know if she was a known trouble maker by the point of conflict.

My theory is backed up by the report that the first officer and not the captain had the altercation

[Lonewolf_50]

Airbubba's link to the original Korean news outlet's article points to (at the least):
1. Discipline due to not keeping this in house.
2. Conflict / harsh words being exchanged between FO and CC.

Interesting to see the difference between what the secondary and tertiary sources reported versus whomever in Korea "got the scoop."

[Longtimer]

I can remember sitting in the staff restaurant in GVA (Swissair) in the 70s and observing aircrew in uniform along with other uniformed staff (agents, AMEs etc) enjoying their split of wine with lunch. When flying on Swissair it was not unusual to see a meal tray, containing a split of wine, being carried to those in the cockpit; (no evidence that the crews actually consumed the wine) No accidents accredited to this. Perhaps we are now in the grasp of 'Political correctness" vs reality. :rolleyes: We all do however know that consumption of liquor by aircrews is restricted x hours before the flights.

[Jack D]

I can remember sitting in the staff restaurant in GVA (Swissair) in the 70s and observing aircrew in uniform along with other uniformed staff (agents, AMEs etc) enjoying their split of wine with lunch. When flying on Swissair it was not unusual to see a meal tray, containing a split of wine, being served to those in the cockpit; No accidents accredited to this. Perhaps we are now in the grasp of 'Political correctness" vs reality. :rolleyes:

This didn’t happen, no wine or any other alcohol was
ever served with cockpit food . Off duty aircrew in the
restaurant perhaps ?

[Lord Farringdon]

I seem recall many years ago, rumours of French crews on UTA (and possibly other French airlines) that would imbibe at lunch on the flight deck with a small glass of wine. This was a very French thing to do and by all accounts the amount of wine was of so small to be inconsequential but the tres Francois custom of having wine with food was upheld. I cannot verify this of course but it seemed credible at the time and we are talking the 80's here.

[compressor stall]

Jack, I wouldn't be so sure....

Admittedly not Air France/SwissAir, but 15 odd years ago at a stopover at far flung French location we declined the offer of wine with our lunch as we were flying. The subsequent incredulous look we received only made sense when we realised that the helicopter pilot flying us back to our aircraft was at our table having a glass of wine.

[Longtimer]

This didn’t happen, no wine or any other alcohol was
ever served with cockpit food . Off duty aircrew in the
restaurant perhaps ?
So you were there? I was.

[fox niner]

Drinking wine in southern europe with every meal, and drinking beer in northern europe with every meal, has been embedded in culture for thousands of years.
So much so that even 4 year old kids were given wine or beer with each meal during the last thousands of years.
Reason?
Water was almost always contaminated with pathogens. Water has been safe to drink only since the 1960s.

The side-effect of this: European people can “handle” alcohol somewhat better than Asian people, due to evolution.

Nowadays there is no reason to give your kids any alcohol. Or for yourself to drink alcohol while working. But there is a reason why Columbus stocked hectolitres of Port wine on board when he set sail to discover America.

[Jim_A]

Asian societies seem to be a lot more concerned with protocol, lines of authority, face saving, etc, so I'm not terribly surprised.

[bill fly]

So you were there? I was.

So Longtimer, apart from being in the staff restaurant and standing in the front galley regularly as wine was brought to the cockpit, what are your other connections to Swissair?

[Jack D]

So you were there? I was.

Flew 26 years for SR short haul, long haul et al .
never saw this, so yes you could say I was there !

whereas you were in a staff restaurant, and may have, as a passenger, seen a standard “ tray” with a small bottle of wine attached, passed to the flight deck .. I assure you this would never have been consumed by the pilots .. at least as far as my 26 yrs experience
mid concerned ..

Dangerous to jump to conclusions old boy !

[T21]

Jack D
Then why was it served if not for consumption with the meal. I did some wet lease flying for Air France about 18 years ago and had to tell our cabin crew to take away the small bottle of wine which was perched on the tray in full view of the passengers before they walked the length of the cabin to bring us our standard flight deck crew meals.

[Jack D]

It was there but never consumed and indeed quite rare for the cockpit to receive a standard pax tray, on most flights first class catering was offered, no plastic trays or plonk. No one felt the need to virtue signal by having it taken away, why would you ? why were you so concerned about what others may think ? you didn’t drink it so that was that

I suppose people were were less interested in what others may do or say and were overall far less judgemental, everyone was pretty grown up about such things .. pre social media days .

[Longtimer]

So Longtimer, apart from being in the staff restaurant and standing in the front galley regularly as wine was brought to the cockpit, what are your other connections to Swissair?




Business Class passenger (full fare) and a working member of various IATA working groups. And what was yours in the 70s. Or perhaps you were still in school? You will note that I said I saw meal trays bearing wine going into the cockpit but since I was not in the cockpit perhaps they were not consumed and instead saved. The ones in the staff cafeteria were def. consumed.

[WingSlinger]

Jack, I wouldn't be so sure....

Admittedly not Air France/SwissAir, but 15 odd years ago at a stopover at far flung French location we declined the offer of wine with our lunch as we were flying. The subsequent incredulous look we received only made sense when we realised that the helicopter pilot flying us back to our aircraft was at our table having a glass of wine.

In France, once, I was offered wine with dinner. I declined, politely, saying that I do not drink. The host incredulously replied "but this is not drinking, this is wine".

[T21]

Jack D
The meals I was speaking about were specific crew meals. We had no passenger meals on board as we were short haul for them. My main concern was always that any passengers on board , especially nervous ones, would be very concerned at the thought of pilots drinking alcohol whilst flying. How would they know that it was drunk later after work? Which is exactly what used to happen to my bottle!

[WingNut60]

I was always impressed by the breakfast buffet at the Radisson in Moscow - a tray full of vodka shots to go with your Rice Krispies.

[Jack D]

Jack D
The meals I was speaking about were specific crew meals. We had no passenger meals on board as we were short haul for them. My main concern was always that any passengers on board , especially nervous ones, would be very concerned at the thought of pilots drinking alcohol whilst flying. How would they know that it was drunk later after work? Which is exactly what used to happen to my bottle!

I see your point .. glad you kept it for later ! All I can say is that in SR alcohol consumption in the cockpit on duty was forbidden and this rule was adhered to by everyone I ever flew with ... crew meal trays had no wine bottles, pax trays had them and were sometimes offered if they were more appetizing than the crew meals but the vino was ignored ...

[MENELAUS]

In France, once, I was offered wine with dinner. I declined, politely, saying that I do not drink. The host incredulously replied "but this is not drinking, this is wine".

That phrase has been used so often, although I’ve never actually heard a Frenchman ( or woman ) say it, that it belongs in the hackneyed phrase almanac. That said, at the French base at Cazaux, where their ‘force de frappe’ guys were based, wine was available on tap at lunchtime, and regularly imbibed by the guys on QRA, in their goon suits. As it was at L’Orient and Landivisau. The mess at Nîmes-Garons has its own domaine and this was served at lunch and dinner. And bloody good it was to. So it was part of the culture then, mid 80’s or so. Suspect long gone.

[bill fly]

Business Class passenger (full fare) and a working member of various IATA working groups. And what was yours in the 70s. Or perhaps you were still in school? You will note that I said I saw meal trays bearing wine going into the cockpit but since I was not in the cockpit perhaps they were not consumed and instead saved. The ones in the staff cafeteria were def. consumed.

Jumping to conclusions isn’t a good idea on this forum... In 72 I joined SR. The rules were that the only place one could drink in uniform - after flight nota bene - was in the Staff restaurant or in the Crew House - SR‘s own crew hotel in GVA.

I never saw alcohol consumed either before flight or in a cockpit, short or long haul. There was an eight hour bottle to throttle rule, which might be a bit lenient these days - was the same as in the RAF.

Went to some IATA meetings in GVA by the way to observe freight prices being fixed. Could it have been with you?

[compressor stall]

In France, once, I was offered wine with dinner. I declined, politely, saying that I do not drink. The host incredulously replied "but this is not drinking, this is wine".

I was talking to the big cheese (grande fromaggio?) of an Italian government supply vessel about 10 years ago about the fact that our Aussie government equivalent had banned alcohol. His reply was, "Unfortunately its the modern way, so have we, the guys will just have to be happy with beer and wine".

[pilotmike]

Perhaps someone should start a thread about a specific Korean Air incident and the management handling of it.

Maybe Bill, Jack, Long and T should get a room, where they can mull over the good old days of yore at Swiss / AF over a bottle of vino!

[bill fly]

Perhaps someone should start a thread about a specific Korean Air incident and the management handling of it.

Maybe Bill, Jack, Long and T should get a room, where they can mull over the good old days of yore at Swiss / AF over a bottle of vino!

Good idea Mike!
But when something like that happens, drawing comparisons is to be expected.
The Air France story was a widely told myth and on that score I have no knowledge.
Was however in Seoul once for a sim ride. Check pilots smoking in the box despite request to stop etc.
There was an evident attitude that might was right throughout my visit there.
Could well explain the peanut rage and this case too.

[413X3]

I can remember sitting in the staff restaurant in GVA (Swissair) in the 70s and observing aircrew in uniform along with other uniformed staff (agents, AMEs etc) enjoying their split of wine with lunch. When flying on Swissair it was not unusual to see a meal tray, containing a split of wine, being served to those in the cockpit; No accidents accredited to this. Perhaps we are now in the grasp of 'Political correctness" vs reality. :rolleyes:

Now we are blaming political correctness for "checks notes" not letting captains drink alcohol on flights or in public at airports before flights. You people are amazing.

[Mac the Knife]

Working at a large teaching hospital in France in the 70's I was surprised to see that everything stopped at lunchtime and dinner, when the drs retired to the Doctors Mess for a formal lunch. One glass pf beer/wine was normal, but >1 seen as bad manners.

I expect that has disappeared, though the tradition of walking around the table, tapping each diner a "handshake" on the shoulder before you took your place apparently remains in some.

Mac

BTW: they also had a 'night chef' for the doctors - no curling sarnies as in my time in the UK, but a fresh steak and chips if you wanted. Nowadays you can get a Diet-Coke from the machine, but that's about all. How times change....

[Paying Guest]

Originally Posted by Globocnik : That said, at the French base at Cazaux, where their ‘force de frappe’ guys were based, wine was available on tap at lunchtime, and regularly imbibed by the guys on QRA, in their goon suits. As it was at L’Orient and Landivisau. The mess at Nîmes-Garons has its own domaine and this was served at lunch and dinner. And bloody good it was to. So it was part of the culture then, mid 80’s or so. Suspect long gone.

was detached for a month to the flight test centre at Marignane for some trials and in the restaurant there at lunchtime, when in flying kit, would routinely be asked "red or white?" when getting to the end of the servery.

[Longtimer]

Jumping to conclusions isn’t a good idea on this forum... In 72 I joined SR. The rules were that the only place one could drink in uniform - after flight nota bene - was in the Staff restaurant or in the Crew House - SR‘s own crew hotel in GVA.

I never saw alcohol consumed either before flight or in a cockpit, short or long haul. There was an eight hour bottle to throttle rule, which might be a bit lenient these days - was the same as in the RAF.

Went to some IATA meetings in GVA by the way to observe freight prices being fixed. Could it have been with you?







Not involved in anything like that. Dangerous goods, communication (message formats) , ULDs and live animal handling. Don't remember any pilots in our groups.
Re the wine, I def. saw the trays going into the cockpit, never of course saw any consumption and I would have been surprised if there was any but the presence of the bottles on the trays did of course create speculation.

[Herod]

I managed to get a look inside a Guppy once. The engineer was knocking back the wine, because, he said, the aeroplane frightened him! We were offered some, but with flying being imminent, declined.

[ifylofd]

At the same time, behavioral researchers sought to understand the physiological and psychological effects of drinking. Drinking profoundly alters mood, arousal, behavior, and neuropsychological functioning. However, studies have found that the specific effects depend not just on how much someone drinks, but also on whether blood alcohol content (BAC) is rising or falling; while in the process of drinking, alcohol acts as a stimulant, but as drinking tapers off it begins to act more as a sedative.

As BAC ascends, drinkers report increases in elation, excitement and extroversion with simultaneous decreases in fatigue, restlessness, depression, and tension. Conversely, a descending BAC corresponds to a decrease in vigor and an increase in fatigue, relaxation, confusion, and depression.

(Recall a study that pretty much proved that a single glass had more overall benefits to the average person.)

[reivilo]

The whole story to me sounds like an expat pilot deadheading home in business class and asking discretely for a cup of wine..
Probably against company rules but not really an issue flight safety wise

[Longtimer]

The whole story to me sounds like an expat pilot deadheading home in business class and asking discretely for a cup of wine..
Probably against company rules but not really an issue flight safety wise

Or maybe was hoping to get a couple of miniatures to take home.

[Biggles44]

I would be surprised if, in this day and age, the Korean pilot demanding a drink was made seriously. I did fly the 747 with KAL in the mid '90s and did witness the second captain enjoying wine with his meal before proceeding upstairs to operate the second half of the 14 hour flight. Appropriate action was discretely taken. While flying the 747 for AF in the early '90's, a wee bottle of wine was always present on the tray when my crew meal was delivered to me on the flight deck. It would have been churlish to refuse, so it simply disappeared into my flight bag.

[nolimitholdem]

I'm going to go with...

Sequence of events is true....

... But.....

I reckon the captain put his hand out to the drinks making a bad joke, with no intent to drink, and likely in the preboarding moments with no passengers on board... The Cabin Manager pulled him up on this and they bickered a little... Later in the flight the Captain twisted the knife with the poor joke along the lines of..

Cabin Manager: Would you guys like anything to drink
Captain: Yes "Bring me wine" haha guffaw guffaw etc.

No flag carrier management would have come to this decision otherwise.

I'm not the sort to defend all pilots in all circumstances... Would be interesting to know if she was a known trouble maker by the point of conflict.

My theory is backed up by the report that the first officer and not the captain had the altercation

^^^
This.

Having done time in that part of the world, I would consider this, combined with the usual "lost in translation" factor, by far to be the most likely explanation of the bizarre story.

But do continue regaling us with stories of other airlines in the 70's...:rolleyes: