SLF experience: Brutal braking, A380 landing 04R JFK

[double_barrel]

Posting as SLF!

I came into JFK on an EK A380 recently. Landing on 04R, I had a good view with a window seat and monitor showing the forward view.

The approach seemed low and flat, and we seemed to float appreciably. A few seconds after touchdown the most brutal braking I have ever experienced was applied for perhaps 5 seconds; people were screaming and all sorts of loose stuff was flying forward. Several of those entertainment 'remote control pads' that had been left undocked, flew past me! The braking was then backed-off and we resumed what felt like normal deceleration. We turned off on E at the very end of the runway.

Any thoughts, could that have been some kind of auto-braking targeting an earlier exit? I see that 04R is the shortest runway at KJFK by some margin, is it usual to land A380's there? (We then spent more than 20 minutes working our way across the other active runways! )

[Uplinker]

Not an A380 pilot, but it sounds like they might have been aiming for FB high speed exit to avoid having to cross 13L/31R on their taxi in, but then either floated the landing or realised it wasn’t going to work comfortably and released the brakes. We usually come off at F or FB in an A330, so don’t know how realistic that is for an A380.

[dhardesthard]

I am sure that the pilots knew what they were doing. It is better to apply aggressive breaking early then back it off than the other way and realise too late that you are running out of runway! Same applies to touch down accuracy. Better to "plunk" it down aggressively than float hoping to achieve a smooth landing only to realise too late that you have left most of the runway behind!

[Banana Joe]

Airbus's Brake To Vacate (BTV) working as intended. The autobrake system will brake automatically to make the exit preselected in the system by the crew before the beginning of the approach. Airbus should fine tune it as it applies a heavier brake application approaching the exit.

[Pilot_Recruit]

Definitely would have been the BTV. As mentioned, it applies the brakes in accordance with the preselected exit. It will delay the braking application as long as possible because even just a few knots of extra energy equals a lot more brake wear and tear (temperatures). In this case it sounds like they may have floated it a little, so BTV came on hard right after touchdown and then they released the brakes to make a different exit.

[Good Business Sense]

Airbus's Brake To Vacate (BTV) working as intended. The autobrake system will brake automatically to make the exit preselected in the system by the crew before the beginning of the approach. Airbus should fine tune it as it applies a heavier brake application approaching the exit.

Crikey. I used to blame the copilot :-)

[double_barrel]

Definitely would have been the BTV. As mentioned, it applies the brakes in accordance with the preselected exit. It will delay the braking application as long as possible because even just a few knots of extra energy equals a lot more brake wear and tear (temperatures). In this case it sounds like they may have floated it a little, so BTV came on hard right after touchdown and then they released the brakes to make a different exit.


Thanks, makes sense. Interesting that it applied sufficient braking to dislodge the dentures of the paying customers, when there was another exit 2,000 ft further down.

There is usually a fairly sophisticated and 'urbane' lot in the business class cabin, but several of them clearly thought their end had come!

[Herod]

Gosh, I must have been a super-sky-god. I flew airliners without BTV, without autoland, even (shock-horror) without autopilots, and I'm still here to tell the tale.

[Meester proach]

JFK has a few issues at present ( more than usual ).

with 13L shut for resurfacing ( ?), they seems keen not to use the remaining 13R if they can get maximum value out of 04L/R or the other end. Means we can encounter a fair old crosswind and or a quartering tailwind .

And they are not that long either. 22R is well displaced giving about 2300m landing distance and has an offset localiser.
22L is very slightly longer . Even at normal weights we are up the top end of the autobrake scale .

it was interesting to see both BA 777 and VA 747 can make the first Hs turnoff on 22L, I guess that’s the advantage of more wheels = more brakes

[gearlever]

What's next?

"BTP"

Brake to park?;)

[MENELAUS]

What's next?

"BTP"

Brake to park?;)

It’s actually a very good system when used correctly.
Selecting wet, as opposed to dry tends to give a slightly smoother experience. Otherwise it does exactly what it says on the tin. Selection of an unrealistic exit spent always help and below 500’ excessive floating for example will generate warnings to either select max manual brake or max reverse

[MENELAUS]

Gosh, I must have been a super-sky-god. I flew airliners without BTV, without autoland, even (shock-horror) without autopilots, and I'm still here to tell the tale.

And your generation had more overrun incidents as a result. And diverted as soon as less than cat I. !!

[roybert]

And your generation had more overrun incidents as a result. And diverted as soon as less than cat I. !!

So if my choice is to fly with Herod or one of the new generation pilots then I pick Herod.

Roybert

[MENELAUS]

So if my choice is to fly with Herod or one of the new generation pilots then I pick Herod.

Roybert

Crack on then. And I’m very far from a new generation pilot.
Whatever that is. Just accepting that kit and pilots therefore have moved on.

[roybert]

Crack on then. And I’m very far from a new generation pilot.
Whatever that is. Just accepting that kit and pilots therefore have moved on.

Technology advances sometimes aren't what there cracked up to be and move things backwards instead of forward that all.

Roybert

[misd-agin]

Exit taxiway for 04R at JFK is typically FB. If they floated the brakes would activate harder trying to make FB. Once they decided to exit at taxiway E the braking requirement would be less and the braking would reduce.

[Herod]

I was always taught "don't scratch the paint, and don't frighten the passengers". BTW, just short of forty years in assorted pilot's seats, and no overruns. Oh, and I have flown Cat 3 autolands.

[pilotmike]

What's next?

"BTP"

Brake to park?;)
I'll bet the easyJet crew wished their A320 had BTAAC earlier today at AMS.

Brake to avoid a crash.

[DaveReidUK]

Exit taxiway for 04R at JFK is typically FB. If they floated the brakes would activate harder trying to make FB. Once they decided to exit at taxiway E the braking requirement would be less and the braking would reduce.

BTV: "Oh yes we can, no hang on we can't!" doesn't sound like a brilliantly-designed system. :O

[Nightstop]

Listen to Herod, he’s saved more passengers than you’ll ever do in a lifetime. A good man, deserved a George Medal (together with Susie H) but never got it.

[ph-sbe]

And your generation had more overrun incidents as a result. And diverted as soon as less than cat I. !!

At least they had fewer underruns as a result of overrelying on automation. Thinking Asiana at SFO.

[Kennytheking]

It should also be pointed out that if the BTV system is unhappy with anything, it automatically reverts to Autobrake Hi. Specifically there have been issues after experiencing GPS jamming. Most crew would disconnect the autobrake after a couple of seconds when it has reverted to Hi. This could account for the vicious braking, followed by the more normal braking.

[MENELAUS]

It should also be pointed out that if the BTV system is unhappy with anything, it automatically reverts to Autobrake Hi. Specifically there have been issues after experiencing GPS jamming. Most crew would disconnect the autobrake after a couple of seconds when it has reverted to Hi. This could account for the vicious braking, followed by the more normal braking.

Yes I can attest to that. Regular occurrence in to Incheon for example.

[double_barrel]

Thanks again all. I was thinking about why it caused such anxiety in the cabin. I think the landing was a floater which meant a late touchdown but also, from the pax point of view, an undetectable touchdown. So unless they were paying attention, the first thing that most people were aware of was a bang and things flying as the brakes came on. Had they felt the jolt of wheels on runway first, then the braking might have been less alarming.

(but impressive brakes! It would be fun to experience a late RTO!)

[roybert]

[QUOTE=but impressive brakes! It would be fun to experience a late RTO![/QUOTE]

Double Barrel Late RTO from my Experience are not fun as SLF and I'm sure some pilots would find them anything but fun while sitting in the business end.

Roybert