AW139 Crash in Bahamas - 7 Killed

[KiwiNedNZ]

Sad to see - met Chris Cline a few times and Geoff Painter who was flying the AW139 was a gentleman. Going to miss the chats.

AW139 Crash (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-people-cline/coal-baron-cline-among-seven-dead-in-bahamas-helicopter-crash-media-idUSKCN1U007S)

Coal baron Cline among seven dead in Bahamas helicopter crash: media


(Reuters) - Coal tycoon and self-made billionaire Christopher Cline, 61, was among seven people who died in a helicopter crash on Thursday in the Bahamas, the Register-Herald of West Virginia reported, citing friends of Cline.

West Virginia Governor Jim Justice confirmed Cline’s death on Twitter but offered no details on how it happened.

“Today we lost a WV superstar and I lost a very close friend. Our families go back to the beginning of the Cline empire - Pioneer Fuel. Chris Cline built an empire and on every occasion was always there to give. What a wonderful, loving, and giving man,” Justice said.

“Cathy and I are praying for his family and all those involved in this tragedy,” Justice said.

Cline died the day before his 62nd birthday and was a native of Beckley, West Virgina.

Among those killed was also one of Cline’s daughters, the Register-Herald said, citing unnamed friends of Cline.

The helicopter went down shortly after takeoff in the Atlantic Ocean early Thursday near Walker’s Cay, the northernmost island in the Bahamas, BNO News said, citing unspecified U.S. and Bahamian officials.

The helicopter was headed for Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, the Palm Beach post reported, citing Bahamian Air Accident Investigation Department’s chief investigator, Delvin Major.

Cline resides in Seminole Landing, Florida, near North Palm Beach, the newspaper reported.

Neither Major, nor a representative with the Bahamas Department of Civil Aviation were available early Friday for comment.

A submerged helicopter with seven aboard had been found near Walker’s Cay, the Register-Herald said, citing Nassau authorities.

Forbes listed Cline number 1,281 on its billionaires list with an estimated net worth of $1.8 billion, listing him as self-made.

Cline started working in the coal mines at age 15 and later dropped out of Marshall University, Forbes said.

A major business breakthrough came in the early 2000s when he bought up high-sulfur coal reserves in Illinois, gambling that improved technology would make it more economical to burn dirty fuel, Forbes said.

Cline took coal mining firm Foresight Energy (FELP.N (https://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=FELP.N)) public in 2014, and sold a controlling stake in 2015 for $1.4 billion cash.

Reporting by Daniel Trotta and Rich McKay; Editing by Michael Perry and Himani Sarkar

[EDMJ]

Sad loss of lives, and it may therefore not matter much in this respect, but is that really an AW139 in the picture here?

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/226803

Is it not an AW119?

[gulliBell]

No, that's an unrelated file photo. Typical lack of editorial oversight in media reporting.

[nomorehelosforme]

Ned, you mention one pilot, would this not normally be a 2 pilot operation? Helicopter appears to be ex London Air Services in Canada.

[[email protected]]

One of the links states a 2 am departure from the Bahamas - night over water shouldn't be an issue with a 139 even OEI.

[gulliBell]

Yeah, and another report says it was a 2pm departure, and it was first reported missing at 6pm, and was found 2 hours later. The bodies were recovered at 1am.

[tottigol]

Sad to see - met Chris Cline a few times and Geoff Painter who was flying the AW139 was a gentleman. Going to miss the chats.

AW139 Crash (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-people-cline/coal-baron-cline-among-seven-dead-in-bahamas-helicopter-crash-media-idUSKCN1U007S)
Ned from where do you get your information regarding the pilot(s)?

[nomorehelosforme]

As mentioned earlier this IS NOT the helicopter referred to in this thread nor is it an AW139!

[Airbubba]

As mentioned earlier this IS NOT the helicopter referred to in this thread nor is it an AW139!

Thanks, I was unable to view the earlier picture and I deleted the latest one.

[Sir Korsky]

night VFR is banned in the Bahamas FYI

https://www.bahamas.com/vfr

[ShyTorque]

Tragic. If that was Geoff Painter of Cloud9Helis, I think he was a PPRuNer. :sad:

[KiwiNedNZ]

Tottigol - My info is accurate - have known Geoff for a long time. Was chatting with him only a couple of days ago. He is the primary pilot for Chris on the 139. I am pretty sure its a 2 person crew and have no idea who the other crew was.

[206Fan]

I got the sad news last night from one of his ex instructors. RIP Geoff!

[Airbubba]

Tragic. If that was Geoff Painter of Cloud9Helis, I think he was a PPRuNer. :sad:

Yep, for example:

OK guys my turn to wade in here

Cloud 9 Helicopters is C9H NOT CNH!!

CNH12 is NOT an employee of Cloud 9 Helicopters but clearly it is someone with a concern about Ocean Helicopters.

I am not throwing stones in glass houses I know better than that.

I hope that clarifies my position and that of Cloud 9 Helicopters in this situation.

Geoff Painter - President Cloud 9 Helicopters LLC

[havick]

Very sad to hear this if it was Geoff Painter.

[KiwiNedNZ]

Havick - It was, if you are friends with him on facebook there are numerous tributes :(

[Three Lima Charlie]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/22046466_10154803637681625_3082698931317372942_n_4589a9bc936 cabdcf32780033a8a03c4e6f308cb.jpg

[Airbubba]

Ned, you mention one pilot, would this not normally be a 2 pilot operation? Helicopter appears to be ex London Air Services in Canada.

From West Virginia MetroNews:

Cline pilot remembered following fatal crashBy Jeff Jenkins (http://wvmetronews.com/author/jjenkins/) in News (http://wvmetronews.com/category/news/) | July 05, 2019 at 2:38PMCHARLESTON, W.Va. — David Jude was a good golfer but a better person.

That’s what West Virginia Golf Association Executive Director Brad Ullman said about Jude Friday less than a day after hearing about the Kermit native’s death in the helicopter crash that also claimed the life Jude’s friend coal magnate Chris Cline.

Jude was Cline’s pilot. When he was not in the air he was usually on the golf course. Ullman said Jude was a great friend of the WVGA for many years.http://wvmetronews.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/David-Jude-WSAZ-1-e1562361461519-222x350.jpg (http://wvmetronews.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/David-Jude-WSAZ-1-e1562361461519.jpg?x43308)Photo courtesy of WSAZ-TV
David Jude

“This is just terrible news. When we received the news late last night it really hurt,” Ullman said.

Ullman said he recently witnessed Jude help a younger golfer, an example of the kind of character he possessed.

“There was a young player that was recently at an event that had some trouble getting his cart fee taken care of just because lack of work and things like that and he’s (Jude) like, ‘Ya know what buddy, I’ll get you taken care of. You just go out there and have a good day and play well.’ He was always thinking of others and very passionate about the game and its principles. I think that’s what we’ll miss most with the loss of Mr. Jude,” Ullman said.

Jude was a good golfer. He recently qualified and played in the West Virginia Open. When he wasn’t playing he was on the bag for his son Davey, Ullman said.

He said Jude will be sorely missed at the WVGA’s Parent-Child Championship scheduled to take place in a few weeks at Glade Springs.

“Mr. Jude and his son Davey have won it before and they’ve been fixtures around that event for many years. There will definitely something missing there in a couple of weeks when we have that event,” Ullman said.

There was no word Friday afternoon on what caused the early Thursday morning crash two miles off the coast of the Bahamas. The helicopter was found hours later when the traveling party didn’t arrive in Fort Lauderdale.

There were seven victims including Cline, Jude and Cline’s daughter Kameron. The victim’s list also has not been officially released.


From Forbes:

The pilot is believed to have been Geoff Painter, who co-owns Cloud 9 Aviation with David Jude, a longtime friend and business partner, who was confirmed with Cline's attorney to have been onboard. Commenters on on the Professional Pilots Rumor Network bulletin board (left=https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/623218-aw139-crash-bahamas-7-killed.html) expressed certainty that Painter was piloting the craft. Messages left for Cloud 9 and Painter were not immediately returned.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2019/07/05/daughters-sorority-sisters-among-7-dead-in-billionaire-chris-cline-helicopter-crash/#4218e8d46d96

[murdock]

Night VFR may be banned, but it certainly does not stop anyone down there from flying at night. Transponder OFF, and done.

[gulliBell]

How would their arrival in the US have worked, surely there would need to be an immigration clearance?

[KiwiNedNZ]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/608x342/bahama_helicopter_crash_ht_jpo_190705_hpmain_16x9_608_98cf6f 5f035391f60a5d7e6977e5df0096c21ff6.jpg


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/608x325/bahama_helicopter_crash_ht_01_jpo_190705_hpembed_28x15_608_d 2a1fb73eb952a08ccc8abb3d6340d24ff7e7658.jpg

[FIRESYSOK]

I don’t know about helicopters, but are the landing gear supposed to be down after takeoff?

[belly tank]

I don’t know about helicopters, but are the landing gear supposed to be down after takeoff?

Normally raised at 80 Kts (VY) & 200’ in the 139 on takeoff and selected down in the before landing cx list.

[Sikpilot]

All the bells and whistles and 2 pilots and it looks like they hit at very high speed and at a very steep angle. Very very sad.

What was that aircraft equpped with that will help out investigators.

[gulliBell]

A telling photo would be of the back-end, see if the tail rotor is still in place. Nothing much to conclude from the wheels being down, reports suggest it was found in the water not far from departure point. No floats installed in this one, right? I don't see the MGB or any MR hub/blades, I doubt it separated in-flight as the hull damage is too minimal.

[noooby]

A telling photo would be of the back-end, see if the tail rotor is still in place. Nothing much to conclude from the wheels being down, reports suggest it was found in the water not far from departure point. No floats installed in this one, right? I don't see the MGB or any MR hub/blades, I doubt it separated in-flight as the hull damage is too minimal.

Why would the TR not be in place?

It left London Air with floats and the photo above on the ramp after getting N registered shows floats, so unless they were recently removed they should still be on there.

It looks to me like it is resting on the MR Head, with MGB in place and I can see the #2 engine as well. FDR will tell the story.

[gulliBell]

If it's thrown a TR blade it would end up in the water...it's happened before.

[Bravo73]

If it's thrown a TR blade it would end up in the water...it's happened before.

It had the newer, ‘3 band’ TR blades. Not the older, ‘2 band’ blades.

[KiwiNedNZ]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/608x325/bahama_helicopter_crash_ht_03_jpo_190705_hpembed_28x15_608_f 8d586aedd5d98e27fc6e1394bac9a0627d70eba.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/608x325/bahama_helicopter_crash_ht_02_jpo_190705_hpembed_28x15_608_0 6b2222c306d881c669b1f4431a9a5b1fe273ada.jpg

[gulliBell]

Well the tail rotor is obviously not there, neither is the tail boom. With all the damage upstairs I wonder if it's gone in upside down? Inverted, submerged, at night: that's a tough scenario to escape from.

[nomorehelosforme]

If earlier comments prove to be correct, 2.00AM flight, transponder off, no flight logged etc Will this become yet another example of pilot/pilots being pressured to take a flight by the big boss that really shouldn’t have been taken?

[nigelh]

But regardless of rules surely a night flight across water with no objects to bump into should be safe in s 139 ??? I don’t think having transponder on would have made a difference...

[Sikpilot]

Were both pilots IFR rated? Either pilot ex military?

[sea plane]

But regardless of rules surely a night flight across water with no objects to bump into should be safe in s 139 ??? I don’t think having transponder on would have made a difference...

Sadly, night flights over water, especially on an exceptionally dark starless night is the deepest IFR you'll ever fly. No visual reference and very dangerous on the initial transition from over land to over water. Extremely challenging for even very experienced pilots. Must stay current IFR, also night and over water night conditions.

[[email protected]]

2am - right at the bottom of the circadian low - perhaps an urgency to the flight if the report of an illness is correct, 2 pilots with perhaps no exposure to EMS/SAR decision making/risk assessment procedures and a fatal crash very soon after take-off.

It is too easy to join the dots but unless a mechanical failure can be proven, this could turn out to be another very avoidable accident.

[nigelh]

Can’t believe a billionaire would not have IFR pilots on his 139 .....

[gulliBell]

Can't believe a billionaire would take the floats off his helicopter (if that is what happened).

[SASless]

For all of that structural damage....it was not a soft impact.

Question for the 139 drivers.....How are the floats actuated on the 139?

Any Saltwater switches or Float Valve Switches that will trigger the floats automatically....if the system is armed?

Are there indications in the photos that give a clue as to whether the floats inflated or not?

[S76wireguy]

Tottigol - My info is accurate - have known Geoff for a long time. Was chatting with him only a couple of days ago. He is the primary pilot for Chris on the 139. I am pretty sure its a 2 person crew and have no idea who the other crew was.

Dave Jude was the primary pilot and aviation dept manager, Geoff and a few others were contract pilots. Aircraft was usually flown single pilot day VFR by Dave.

[Scattercat]

For all of that structural damage....it was not a soft impact.

Question for the 139 drivers.....How are the floats actuated on the 139?

Any Saltwater switches or Float Valve Switches that will trigger the floats automatically....if the system is armed?

Are there indications in the photos that give a clue as to whether the floats inflated or not?

The floats are armed for over-water flights ... they activate via float valve switches situated in the MLG wells.

I see nothing in these photos to indicate any float inflation. The Fwd bags are housed below the cockpit doors & the Aft bags below the baggage bay.

I'm aware that some operations discourage arming floats on the AW139 during cruise .... despite the RFM calling for this .... just saying.

[gulliBell]

The forward float bag protrusions evident in #17 do not seem to be there in the underwater images. Which makes me wonder if they had been removed.

[Sir Korsky]

For all of that structural damage....it was not a soft impact.

Question for the 139 drivers.....How are the floats actuated on the 139?

Any Saltwater switches or Float Valve Switches that will trigger the floats automatically....if the system is armed?

Are there indications in the photos that give a clue as to whether the floats inflated or not?

Recommended gear up to ditch. Float switch arms collective manual override. Immersion should auto activate floats with float switch on or off.

[SASless]

Why would one operate a helicopter on extended over-water flights (To/From Florida-Bahamas) without floats being. installed and serviceable?

[Sir Korsky]

Why would one operate a helicopter on extended over-water flights (To/From Florida-Bahamas) without floats being. installed and serviceable?

and rafts and the Deployable ELT

[sea plane]

Not required for Part 91. May people down here operate without floats. Personal option.

[havick]

Were both pilots IFR rated? Either pilot ex military?

I know Geoff was rated IFR, he was also an ex RAF Tornado Pilot for what it’s worrh.

No idea of their recency though and experience in the type.

[SASless]

A kind and knowledgeable gentleman kindly sent this to me about the 139 Float system.


ADA AW139 A6-AWN Ditching off UAE, 29 April 2017: Final Report - Aerossurance (http://aerossurance.com/helicopters/aw139-a6awn-ditching-uae/)

[gulliBell]

From the RFM. Yep, automatically deployed, or by manual activation.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/586x623/screen_shot_2019_07_06_at_23_15_23_f37bea2f4bf69fdcca63d61d5 d6e43279e321328.png

[sea plane]

Check FAA website, Geoff Painter had an ATP which requires instrument ticket. Other pilot, David Jude also had instrument ticket.
But even if you have instrument ticket and are IFR and night current, flying over open water at night is the deepest IMC you will ever fly. Especially tricky is the transition from over land to over water.
Crashes at this critical point in flight happen down here all the time...even with very experienced pilots.

[gulliBell]

...Immersion should auto activate floats with float switch on or off.

RFM says FLOATS EMERG must be set to ON for both automatic and manual inflation.

[noooby]

The forward float bag protrusions evident in #17 do not seem to be there in the underwater images. Which makes me wonder if they had been removed.

You aren't seeing the floats there in post #17. You're seeing OPTIONAL hard covers for the floats. They are made to tear off when the float inflates. The float bag cover underneath the hard covers is silver and is what you see on most 139's with floats as it is quite rare to see a machine with the hard covers fitted.

The underwater photos are not clear enough to ascertain if the floats are installed or not. The bags are flush (near enough) with the fuselage skin so it is hard to see.

Not surprised to see the tailboom off. Such a large lever hitting the water hard is going to break off. Looks like some serious crushing of the belly area on the right side too.

[S76wireguy]

Were both pilots IFR rated? Either pilot ex military?

IFR rated vs. IFR proficient is a big difference. Not a lot of hard IMC flying in Florida and the Bahamas to keep one sharp for a 2am overwater flight to a private island.

[malabo]

Floats or not is academic, it was not a ditching, it was a high impact crash. Weakness in operational standard that governed aircraft equipment, operational oversight (flight following, crew scheduling), and pilot skill and qualification appears to have continued the open season helicopters seem to have on rich guys. You crash in the ocean and nobody knows for hours until you haven’t shown up at your destination? No sat tracking, no flight watch? I’ll reserve judgement on the crew suitability beyond just their certificates, we flew safely offshore and EMS with routine black hole departures because of our operational standards and experience requirements. Should have been an easy flight for a 139.

[sea plane]

I fly those deep night, no moon, no star conditions over open ocean water routinely. As I mentioned earlier, even the most skilled and experienced pilots can get into trouble on a night like that. It happens down here all the time. July 2 was the new moon and the conditions the next night would have been a very deep, dark night near Grand Cay.

Pilots need to be current for these exact conditions - no moon, deep night, over-water conditions, not just having a rating.

I agree, this was not a ditch.

[Sir Korsky]

RFM says FLOATS EMERG must be set to ON for both automatic and manual inflation.

I stand corrected

[atakacs]

Just wondering: who will be the lead agency investigating this one? NTSB ?

[[email protected]]

Should have been an easy flight for a 139. absolutely :ok:

[havick]

Just wondering: who will be the lead agency investigating this one? NTSB ?

I doubt the NTSB will even look at it being part 91 and in a different country.

[110percent]

this news reporting is soooo inaccurate!
red helo inverted with un-inflated floats?
white helicopter with wheels underwater?
registration in a video as HB-ZUV
two listed as pilots, painter and jude, both principals in cloud 9 helicopters
time of day/night......
my goodness, too much of a rush to 'GET THAT STORY'

[Airbubba]

Just wondering: who will be the lead agency investigating this one? NTSB ?


This crash will be investigated by the Air Accident Investigation Department of the Bahamas (http://www.baaid.gov.bs/ (http://www.baaid.gov.bs/)).

From the Tribune Freeport:

According to a statement by AAID issued by Grand Bahama NEMA official Tammi Mitchell, AAID has dispatched a team of investigators to the crash site. They will be joined and assisted by a team from the United States.

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) as well as the Transportation Safety Board (TSB) of Canada and the manufacturer of the aircraft and engine have been notified and will be providing assistance to the AAID with the investigation.

A salvage team has been dispatched to recover the aircraft and transport it to Florida where an inspection and investigation will be carried out.

"The AAID is mindful of the families that lost loved ones in this tragedy. We understand people want answers rapidly. We offer our deepest condolences. At present we are assessing this occurrence," the statement read.

"Once on site, our team will collect data, conduct witness interviews, examine and photograph the wreckage before it is transported to the facility in Florida for further analysis and documentation."

The statement indicated that AAID also will be looking to examine the maintenance history of the craft, review weather information, operations policies, regulations requirements and the operation of the aircraft.

AAID will have to examine all the information before drawing any conclusion.

"It is too early to say what the causes and contributing factors of this accident might be. The AAID will be also working with local law enforcement, the Royal Bahamas Defence Force and other government and non-governmental agencies to ensure that those affected and next of kin are provided with information about the accident, and the next steps," the statement read.

AAID will provide updates on its website at www.baaid.org (https://www.pprune.org/www.baaid.org), on its Twitter page at bahamas_aaid, and through its WhatsApp Chat.

AAID thanked all emergency personnel and first responders for the support provided to local community and the assistance provided its team.



http://www.tribune242.com/news/2019/jul/06/bodies-helicopter-crash-victims-brought-nassau/?news

[Same again]

Should have been an easy flight for a 139.

Only if the crew were very current in night/IMC operations and understood the correct use of flight director modes and the activation speeds of those modes. I have seen very experienced and current AW139 crews mess up on night overwater or IMC (same thing) take-offs in the sim - especially when even a minor malfunction is introduced.

If the operation is performed by 2 pilots then there needs to be a clear understanding of what will happen during the departure (a full brief) by the pilot flying (both normal and with a failure) and an understanding by the pilot monitoring. This is standard in most offshore/SAR operators SOP's but less so in other operations. If what I understand from previous posts is that this is a private operation normally flown single pilot day/VFR and this particular flight was 2 pilot night/IMC then I am not surprised at the outcome. RIP.

[[email protected]]

But both of them hold licences as professional pilots - I am only SP VFR on the 139 but I can use the FD modes day/night and avoid flying into the water - what went wrong here?

Even the most basic use of ALTA would take you away from the water while you dealt with a malfunction (excepting major technical failures like TR), you are not telling me that pilots with a licence can't do that that, even if it is dark?

[Same again]

I have seen pilots with professional licences and AW139 type ratings who could not even fly an accurate circuit without being talked around it. Take a job at Sesto Crab - it would give you some clarity on world standards and abilities. RAF Valley not so.

For example (hypothetically of course) ..... a take-off is not properly briefed as the crew are not used to flying a 2 pilot operation and prior to reaching 55 kts IAS the PF (who is not very current flying without any visual references and starts to feel uncomfortable) asks the PM to select ALTA. He tries but it won't engage. The PF looks down to see what the problem is. The airspeed reduces further. Both pilots are looking inside and outside it is very dark with no visible horizon. The PF gets disoriented. They have not briefed what the procedure will be. Airspeed reduces further. Unusual attitude. Low altitude. No float arming, gear still not raised. Helicopters impacts the ocean in an unusual attitude and tail boom detaches.

[SASless]

Crab dear boy....you should get out more.

Gullibell and I both noted our experiences as Sim Instructors....and now you get it from third source......a piece of paper in a fancy twine bound booklet does not mean squat when it comes to real life flying ability.

Turn the lights out and remove a horizon such as over water flying and the numbers of our peers that are unable to reliably cope drops quickly.

To be fair to the two pilots in this particular tragedy....we do not know what happened to cause them to wind up as they did.

My point as was the other two is to remind all and sundry that IF flying skills are very perishable and just having a ticket to try...does not mean you can or should.

As you well know....from your own experience....it takes training, practice, and currency all combined to carry out the tasks safely and comfortably.

I as the rest of us should....will wait for the results of the investigation to discuss what actually occurred in this accident.

At this point...mechanical failures...systems failures....even pilot error are ALL possible scenarios.

[Torquetalk]

Here’s a simple scenario of how it can go wrong in the 139, even with all the bells and whistles:

Fail to set a altitude (perhaps even have a minus value in...). Take off; establish a safe climb out profile; select ALTA; fail to notice that your safe profile has shifted to a descent... next call “150ft”, assuming you got higher than that; fail to react right promptly. Easy done, esp if you hit the upper modes early.

[Sir Korsky]

Here’s a simple scenario of how it can go wrong in the 139, even with all the bells and whistles:

Fail to set a altitude (perhaps even have a minus value in...). Take off; establish a safe climb out profile; select ALTA; fail to notice that your safe profile has shifted to a descent... next call “150ft”, assuming you got higher than that; fail to react right promptly. Easy done, esp if you hit the upper modes early.

Hopefully the fly away will kick in. I'm guessing it wasn't a phase 7 ship.

[Scorpygixxer]

They made it less than 2 miles. Clearly it went wrong shortly after loss of visual references. As mentioned, simple things can cause a serious UA shortly after takeoff.

Something as simple as a stuck down cyclic FTR can cause complete chaos with even a competent crew shortly after departure. An inadvertent SAS release with no references can be catastrophic at low alt.

The FD is very smart post phase 4 and should prevent an inadvertent descent except in a few rare conditions.

Whatever the cause, the MPFR will have most of the answers. RIP.

[rrekn]

Hopefully the fly away will kick in. I'm guessing it wasn't a phase 7 ship.

Based on the lack of ADS-B and the early SN, chances are it wasn't.

[rrekn]

Media reports are now stating that the flight was a medivac:

Cline was rushing his 22-year-old daughter to a Florida hospital for a medical emergency when their helicopter plunged into the Bahamian sea, according to a report.

Cline began experiencing the unspecified medical issue while attending her dad’s birthday party on his private island near Grand Cay, a friend of the family’s, Lauree Simmons, said on Friday.

[Sir Korsky]

Based on the lack of ADS-B and the early SN, chances are it wasn't.

Pretty sure the fly away is based off the rad alt

[Nescafe]

Pretty sure the fly away is based off the rad alt

It is, and it needs a collective flight director mode engaged and coupled.

[Gyro139]

Aircraft was at least Phase 5 with 4 axis enhanced FD. This means that TU (transition up) would have been available to them from zero speed, a great tool in the event of disorientation after departure and below 60kts when the traditional FD modes are not available. As to the safety flyup function, this requires the Collective mode of the FD to have been engaged/captured.

[Airbubba]

From The Nassau Guardian:

‘Heartbroken’
July 6, 2019 Jasper Ward

Mathien McIntosh watched his boss’ helicopter take off from Big Grand Cay Thursday morning and then saw it disappear and crash.

American billionaire Chris Cline, along with six other people, were killed after the helicopter they were on crashed two miles off Grand Cay.

Cline is the owner of Big Grand Cay.

“The night before, me and my brother-in-law, we watched the chopper come in,” McIntosh told The Guardian yesterday.

“We watched it land and in about half an hour it [went] back up.

“As it [went] back up, it didn’t get very high. It went up and in about five minutes it just ‘boop’.

“The light just disappeared and it was a loud crash. It was a loud bang in the water.”

He said, “We jumped in our boats and we went searching. This was about 2:30 a.m. and we went searching from about 2 a.m. to 4 a.m., almost 5 a.m., the next day.

“Where it was so dark, we really couldn’t see anything because it was too dark so we called back to the island and they said, ‘No, no, no. The chopper is back in the states.’ So, I said ok, fine.”

McIntosh said he thought that was it.

But police said around 2 p.m. on Thursday, Cline’s helicopter was reported missing.

Delvin Major, chief investigator at the Air Accident Investigation Department, said the helicopter had departed Grand Cay, Abaco, and was en route to Fort Lauderdale, Florida, when it crashed.

Search and rescue efforts began after the aircraft was reported “overdue” by authorities, according to Major.

McIntosh said he then went to Big Grand Cay to break the news to Cline’s employees.

Then he set out with officials to find the chopper.

When officials finally located the crash site, McIntosh said he was “heartbroken”.

“Everybody just was in a daze. Man, it was just tears, you know? It was just tears.”

He was also present when divers pulled Cline’s body out of the water.

McIntosh struggled to recount the discovery.

“Mr. Cline actually…was one of the first ones that came out,” he said, choking back tears.

“…Just then, a kid came out. It was four kids and they were about 19 to 21 years of age, kids in their prime.

“They had just graduated from college and came home to have fun and then boom; here today and gone tomorrow. It’s life.”

McGarrett Russell, a native of Abaco, said he and his son went out to sea with other members of the search and rescue team.

He said they stumbled across an area that “looked suspicious in the water”.

“[My son] put on his dive gears and he got into the water to identify what the object was,” Russell said.

“He went down there and when he [came] up, he told us what he saw and it was sad. He said he saw persons onboard. They all had on their seat belt, apparently intact.”

He added, “My son said he had to take the pilot’s hand away from the controllers. It was very hard because it was stiff [but] he said everybody was intact as if no one was even trying to loosen their seat belt and the doors [were] off.”

Police said four women and three men were on the helicopter.

Cline, who died one day before his 61st birthday, was reportedly on the craft with his daughter, a mechanic and some of his daughter’s friends.

Penny Reckhemmer, a spokesperson for the U.S. Embassy in Nassau, said the embassy is providing appropriate consular services to the families of the victims.

“We offer our deepest condolences to the victims’ loved ones at this difficult time,” she said.

“The embassy is working closely with the U.S. and local authorities who are investigating the crash. At this time, the Bahamian government is leading the investigation with participation of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board.”

According to the U.S. Department of State, 31 Americans have died in air accidents in The Bahamas between January 2003 and December 2018.

[Old Dogs]

Aircraft was at least Phase 5 with 4 axis enhanced FD. This means that TU (transition up) would have been available to them from zero speed, a great tool in the event of disorientation after departure and below 60kts when the traditional FD modes are not available. As to the safety flyup function, this requires the Collective mode of the FD to have been engaged/captured.

What happened to just being able to fly the aircraft without all the doodads?

Many of us have done thousands of these black night departures without an FD and fully coupled AP.

[nigelh]

Old school flying skills are disappearing. There was a time when losing SAS or autopilot was an inconvenience but now it’s a disaster. 2 pilots and all the bells and whistles should be able to fly over flat water safely... period . Something is going terribly wrong with our current training !

[gulliBell]

That's right...in the old days we'd turn off the helipilots and fly around in wobbly mode and it was no drama at all. Try that today, and should anybody find out likely set off all sorts of calamities and investigations.

[Old Dogs]

Old school flying skills are disappearing. There was a time when losing SAS or autopilot was an inconvenience but now it’s a disaster. 2 pilots and all the bells and whistles should be able to fly over flat water safely... period . Something is going terribly wrong with our current training !



I completely agree.

When I flew for Okanagan in the Beaufort Sea and High Arctic we used Bell 212's (Bell IFR or Sperry - no FD or AP except on 2 aircraft) ), SK 61's (AFCS - no FD or AP) and 76's (SCAS - no FD or AP).

We flew many thousands of hours at night, 12 months a year.

And yes, I once experienced "the wobblies" after a turn on departure into a black night with no horizon or celestial illumination.

FLY THE AIRCRAFT

[Old Dogs]

That's right...in the old days we'd turn off the helipilots and fly around in wobbly mode and it was no drama at all. Try that today, and should anybody find out likely set off all sorts of calamities and investigations.

You had "Helipilots"?

Cool!!!

[gulliBell]

Helipilots (Sperry) and AP's (Honeywell) with FD on the 76, yes. SCAS on the IFR 212's. The 76 was a little tricky at first without the helipilots, the early ones were built without it even installed. The guys flying those earned some street cred. All that aside, there seems to be a realization that this Bahamas prang was likely CFIT. Ordinarily one might be perplexed how this could possibly happen in a 139 with an IFR qualified crew. But I've seen it happen time and time again, more times than I can count, in the Level D FFS with IFR crews that are supposedly qualified and current. And that is without introducing any system malfunctions.

[Old Dogs]

Helipilots (Sperry) and AP's (Honeywell) with FD on the 76, yes. SCAS on the IFR 212's. The 76 was a little tricky at first without the helipilots, the early ones were built without it even installed. The guys flying those earned some street cred. All that aside, there seems to be a realization that this Bahamas prang was likely CFIT. Ordinarily one might be perplexed how this could possibly happen in a 139 with an IFR qualified crew. But I've seen it happen time and time again, more times than I can count, in the Level D FFS with IFR crews that are supposedly qualified and current. And that is without introducing any system malfunctions.

Interesting comments.

I totally agree that we have seen this often in Level D (and earlier) sims - WITH NO MALFUNCTIONS.

Yer right, the very early 76's had no HeliPilots. They were fun, sometimes.

Our 212s were either Bell IFR (SCAS/AFCS) or Sperry (all with helipilots, only two with the FD).

This is accident is reminiscent of the OKie 214ST crash in Newfoundland.

Two miles from departure? I agree, most likely they drilled a perfectly good aircraft into the water.

[EESDL]

Let’s not belittle the thread by extolling the virtues of flying in the old days - we’ve already agreed that regular tooling about at night is not an issue if you do it often enough.
The fading of flying skills - If present in the first place - is a known issue but rarely addressed due to the “it will only happen to someone else” syndrome.
I have a hunch (rumour network) that there is more to this incident than meets the eye - I suspect that the ‘medevac’ element might have affected the go/no-go decision-making matrix......

[Old Dogs]

Let’s not belittle the thread by extolling the virtues of flying in the old days - we’ve already agreed that regular tooling about at night is not an issue if you do it often enough.
The fading of flying skills - If present in the first place - is a known issue but rarely addressed due to the “it will only happen to someone else” syndrome.
I have a hunch (rumour network) that there is more to this incident than meets the eye - I suspect that the ‘medevac’ element might have affected the go/no-go decision-making matrix......


The fact that this was a medivac has no bearing on the reality that they drilled a perfectly good aircraft into the water two miles from departure.

Flying a fully IFR equipped 139 on a clear night from the Bahamas to Ft Lauderdale should have been easy money.

[Non-PC Plod]

This event has so many echoes of the G-LBAL AW139 crash 5 years ago, which helped to push EASA into creating the "non-commercial complex" operations rules. I would not be surprised if findings will uncover contributing factors such as no ops manuals, lack of SOPs, no MCC training......etc!

[Old Dogs]

This event has so many echoes of the G-LBAL AW139 crash 5 years ago, which helped to push EASA into creating the "non-commercial complex" operations rules. I would not be surprised if findings will uncover contributing factors such as no ops manuals, lack of SOPs, no MCC training......etc!

Yup, same old, same old.

[EESDL]

Agree - if aircraft/pilot were serviceable

[NumptyAussie]

Whatever happened here, sometimes training and a full specification aircraft don't stop a helicopter from going in..remember the CHC AWSAR aircraft that ran into a light house building in Ireland?

[Same again]

Many of us have done thousands of these black night departures without an FD and fully coupled AP.

Anything practiced on a regular basis becomes second nature and a comfortable exercise. I used to fly single pilot IFR in an unstabilised Army Gazelle with no navaids for years. I have no doubt that the pilot on this particular flight was very competent flying the 139 day VFR. It is when we try to do something that is not practiced regularly that the holes start to line up. Add to that the (possibly) unfamiliar 2 crew operation, a night, overwater take-off plus induced pressure of a medical emergency (by non-SAR pilots) and it become far more hazardous.

Hopefully the FDR and CVR will clear up the mystery.

[abdunbar]

Lack of situational awareness is a problem for all of us. I just took some people on a canoe trip in Northern Maine. We drove two hours beyond cell phone coverage to the start of the trip. Then went down a river, high water and a current that meant return impossible. Water was so fast that we had to snatch the canoes from a steep bank at the first night camp site. If anyone had missed the landing.... The point is that it is easy to get in over your head in any endeavor.

Rich guys have much more opportunity for everything, including getting into trouble. Seems as if there should be a rich guy survival class. What was the right answer to this situation? What were the alternatives? Assuming that the medical emergency was acute, not just uncomfortable. Was it possible to get a medevac from Florida or Nassau? Would that medevac company have been a better qualified operation? I have no idea but Monday morning thinking says that this information should have been part of a Bahama out island SOP. On the other hand no one appreciates being restricted by more rules and regulations. But wouldn't it be nice to know where the line is. I just googled some medevac companies. They do brag about their NVG and IFR training. But I saw no mention of when and if they operate one or two pilot, how they handle dispatch, what crew rest rules they follow...

[Sikpilot]

Can we assume the helo took off from the mainland at night and landed at night in the Bahamas?

What kind of place did they land at? Could they have unknowingly hit the tail rotor on something on landing or taking off from the Bahamas?

[[email protected]]

Why are flying skills considered old-school?

The training and licensing system is clearly not fit for purpose if you can get and maintain a professional pilots licence and not be able to keep the aircraft right side up in whatever conditions you find yourself in.

If this paucity of ability is as widespread as many here attest, we will only see more of this type of accident and it may go some way to explaining the high level of EMS CFITs in the US.

[SASless]

Crab,

One school of thought is automation has caused problems....more pilot error accidents....and the cure has been....more automation.

Hands on flying skills....which I suggest also includes handling the "automated systems"....are perishable skills.

If you do not use them....you lose them.


https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/children-of-the-magenta-automation-paradox-pt-1/

[Same again]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs

Children of the Magenta. An old one but well worth a watch if you have not seen it yet.

[Arcal76]

Companies are pushing for automation.
They think it is key factor to avoid trouble when we gone become incompetent to hand fly an aircraft.
It is a problem everywhere and a gigantic one in the airline industry.
I feel now that I don't know if I am safe now when I fly an airline because I don't if the guys in front will be able to really fly the aircraft if they have a major problem (we have seen that in many occasion....)

When you take-off in those conditions, you really have top prepare your mind about you should do, what is important, what procedure you will have. Taking-off during the day can be done "mechanically" without thinking about anything, there is no way it is possible to do that at night.
Many people do not fly at night or under-estimate the difficulty of night flying. The transition from the take-off area to total darkness can be very surprising and difficult to manage and in this case you go from having some light during take-off to pitch black.
If you are not prepared mentally, it is a recipe for disaster and it doesn't matter if you have experience.
As the other guys said, with a 139, even if you are not current or not used to do that, it shouldn't be difficult.
Pre-select 2000ft, prepare yourself to accelerate to Vy, select ALTA at Vy and the aircraft brings you to 2000 ft at the speed you had when you made the selection.
You are flying a 139, not a 206, you should know all system available to help you and use them when you need it.
It is sad to see that even with modern aircraft who have a lots of tools available to save you, we still end up with 7 persons dead.

[[email protected]]

But we have had automation in helicopters for many years and as long as people are taught how to use it and how to fly without it if it goes wrong there shouldn't be an issue.

If pilots are so rubbish on the sim checks why aren't they failing and being sent for more training.

It seems as though we are all asleep at the wheel here, allowing the standard of piloting to reduce but doing nothing about it.

The children of the magenta is a very real problem and it often seems that the information presented to the pilot is as a result of an engineers design rather than a pilots need. You have to learn and understand how the designers think rather than have the right information, easily presented and with the minimum number of button presses.

[helicrazi]

But we have had automation in helicopters for many years and as long as people are taught how to use it and how to fly without it if it goes wrong there shouldn't be an issue.

If pilots are so rubbish on the sim checks why aren't they failing and being sent for more training.

It seems as though we are all asleep at the wheel here, allowing the standard of piloting to reduce but doing nothing about it.

The children of the magenta is a very real problem and it often seems that the information presented to the pilot is as a result of an engineers design rather than a pilots need. You have to learn and understand how the designers think rather than have the right information, easily presented and with the minimum number of button presses.

I have to agree with a statement above, if pilots are so bad in the sim then why do they pass.

I've seen blatant failures in the sim yet the pilot has passed, I think at the moment itspartially down to bums on seats and a massive shortage.

[SASless]

I feel now that I don't know if I am safe now when I fly an airline because I don't if the guys in front will be able to really fly the aircraft if they have a major problem (we have seen that in many occasion....)


Sometimes it is a very simple problem and one that should not be difficult to handle that gets them.

Far too often the aircrew has a lot of help from the design engineers, tech writers, company management and certifying authorities when it comes to causing an accident.

In response to Crab....one Sim outfit I worked for....we did not "pass" folks unless they met our standards. I once failed the Chief Pilot of a major oil company....and got absolute support from my management.

The second Sim outfit I worked for....had a much different view of it. If you determined you would not be able to "pass" a Student....he got transferred to another instructor.

Later we had a several major operators lease time in the Sim and they did their own training and checking and we just ran the Sim for them.

Oddly....they. never failed anyone.

[cujet]

I just joined this forum to add a little to this thread. I'm DOM for a high end corporate flight department, an aircraft owner and pilot. Our "little toys" corporate hangar is next door to Cloud 9's corporate hangar at F45 in Jupiter, FL. I knew Geoff as a hangar-neighbor, and we would talk when ever we saw each other.

I understand it's easy to complain about the waining "skills" in today's batch of pilots. But I can tell you first hand that Geoff was an absolute professional, with top tier hands on flying skills. I'm finding it exceedingly difficult to speculate on pilot error being the cause. These 2 pilots flew regularly in local conditions, day+night, understood them exceptionally well, and displayed professionalism always. Not the type to be distracted into CFIT shortly after a night takeoff.

We've all heard common airport chat such as: "that idiot is going to kill himself or someone else". Geoff and Dave were NOT those people and never had such things said about them. We never expected this. Geoff managed his business and his flying with the utmost professionalism.

I need to go out to the hangar this morning, and I dread it, this really hurts. I was out there the other day, the sadness is palpable, the missing pilots weigh heavily on our souls. Not one of us has ever had a bad thing to say about them.

[FIRESYSOK]

Sounds like there was only one pilot and a mechanic on board at the time. And not the ‘regular’ pilot, possibly. But that’s all my guesswork from reading here.

[malabo]

You'd think a billionaire could buy himself a higher quality operation. Part 91, was not a "Medevac" in our SAR/Commercial definition of the term. That term is being tossed around now by the media to give a sense of sacrifice and justification for not waiting a couple hours until dawn. In most jurisdictions (Canada 604.02, EASA for sure) there is a requirement for private large airplane, turbine, or multi-engine aircraft to operate to a regulator-approved standard. I wonder what the oversight was here.

Cujet , fill us in on how this was a professionally managed flight. Airbubba quoted the Nassau Guardian article that the locals saw it splash in at 2am, searched the water until 5am, and then were told it had arrived in Florida and all was fine. Then later in the afternoon at 2 pm, 12 hours later, when it was apparent it had not arrived, the search began again. So what was that, no flight plan, no sat tracking, no flight following, no customs arrangement in Fort Lauderdale? Last time I flew a helicopter from Nassau to KPBI I had to have all of those things, plus ADIZ contact and previously filed eAPIS. If we can be forgiven for thinking it sounds Mickey Mouse, perhaps you can explain how things are done there.

[abdunbar]

when I was a check airman at a major world airline more than 15 years ago, I flew with many pilots with poor BAW. My policy was that I expected a new copilot to be able to manage a descent and approach without the autopilot or flight management. The pendulum was swinging. In the past, military pilots generally had no difficulty but with the advent of electric jets, F16 at that time things were changing. Also, the airline would let people bid what they wanted and guys would bid the FB, second copilot position when they had senority to hold FO on less desirable trips. On international trips with usually two legs per trip, the Captain got a landing and the FO got a landing. FB got currency in the simulator. I flew with an FB who had 3000 767 hours and 30 landings in the actual aircraft.

I flew with a small Japanese airline also. The FOs came to the seat with 250-300 total time in all aircraft types. But, they often got three legs a day, 15 days a month, night time often, sometimes non precision approach, mildly mountainous terrain, lots of inclement weather. They became highly skilled in quick order.

[FIRESYSOK]

I’d have to agree with that sentiment. If you can afford the multi-million chopper- and goodness knows what else- you ought to have the chops to insist on a fully-kitted department, fixed and rotary. And understand its limitations..

[paco]

In theory, but I've been for interviews with people who have the money to pay for hangars and aircraft yet cheapskate in weird areas such as qualified and sensible pilots. Like buying a Leica and putting cheap film through it.

[FIRESYSOK]

My parents have a friend—a former Fortune 500 CEO with a a Falcon 50 at his disposal who looked down upon pilots...considered them part of the ‘help’. Not saying this ever happened in this case, but it was a bit shocking to learn of his disdain.

[Airbubba]

Sounds like there was only one pilot and a mechanic on board at the time. And not the ‘regular’ pilot, possibly. But that’s all my guesswork from reading here.



There were two pilots on board, Geoff Painter and David Jude, their backgrounds are discussed earlier in this thread. Despite the repeated references in the local media, it appears that there was no 'mechanic' on board and one does not show up in the lists of fatalities from various sources.

From The Palm Beach Post:

The operator of a Palm Beach Gardens helicopter service was piloting the multi-million-dollar chopper that crashed in the Bahamas on July 4 (https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20190705/former-benjamin-students-died-in-bahamas-copter-crash-family-members-say), killing himself and six others, including coal billionaire and part-time northern Palm Beach County resident Christopher Cline, authorities said Saturday.

Geoffrey Painter, (https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20180330/why-trump-easter-stay-wont-stop-wellington-churchs-helicopter-egg-drop%20) 52, and David Jude, 57, also killed in the crash, operated Cloud 9 Helicopters, based at the North County Airport, according to the company’s web page and state corporate records.

Bahamian authorities initially had suggested Jude, a West Virginia and Juno Beach resident who is one of Cline’s regular corporate pilots, was at the controls of the Agusta AW139 that dropped into shallow waters near Grand Cay, about 115 miles northeast of Palm Beach, and that the seventh person was an unidentified “Florida mechanic.”

But on Saturday, the Royal Bahamas Police Force posted a list of all seven victims, and listed Painter as the pilot.



https://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/20190706/update-investigators-recover-helicopter-that-crashed-in-bahamas

Here is the list of victims released yesterday by the Royal Bahamas Police Force:

UPDATE Saturday 12.20pm: Police have officially identified the seven people who were killed in Thursday’s helicopter crash:

(1) Geoffrey Lee Painter DOB 30-10-66 of Barnes Staple, United Kingdom (Pilot)

(2) Kameron Nicole Cline DOB 21-03-97 of Washington, DC

(3) Brittney Layne Searson DOB 16-08-97 of Palm Beach, Florida

(4) Jillian Nicole Clarke DOB 07-10-96 Los Angeles, Califonia

(5) Davis [sic] Jude DOB 02-12-62 of Kentucky

(6) Wykyle Delaney Lee DOB 18-06-96 of Washington, DC

(7) Christopher Cline DOB 05-07-58 of New York.

[FIRESYSOK]

I stand corrected. Two pilots.

[Same again]

Having the benefit of flying for a number of operators in my career I think that I have probably experienced the whole spectrum of training/currency requirements. The major operators seem to have the best initial and recurrent training systems but these are also the pilots who are probably getting the most regular exposure to flying. An average in my experience would be 5-600 flying hours per year offshore and 2-300 hours SAR/EMS.

I have also worked the VVIP circuit flying for seriously wealthy people and the average was maybe 50-100 hours per year with only the 6 monthly OPC to maintain any kind of currency. Although the initial hiring qualifications were high there were minimal flying or recurrency requirements. Certainly nowhere near comparable to non-VIP operations. The expectation was that not having flown at all for maybe 6 weeks I could depart from the deck of a super yacht over water at night single pilot and get these people to wherever they wanted to go with little notice - or my employer would be told I was 'not suitable'.

Not all owners are so ignorant of course and I now work for one who understand the correlation between currency and safety. I was offered a job with the Haughey 139 operation but turned it down as I knew that I would not last long there.

[SASless]

Let's put a "human" touch on this tragedy......which it surely was.

Seven good people have been killed, some of them very young and just getting started in life, one an extremely successful businessman, and two well regarded members of our own community.

These sad occurrences we discuss here over the years all have such loss in them no matter where they happen or who they involve.

If you are charged with the safety of others.....it is a duty that transcends all other responsibilities accruing to your employment.

We have to be every mindful of that as we go about our work.

It is heart breaking to see such promise in young folks lost this way.

I offer my Condolences to those who are having to cope with the loss of their loved ones as I know they need all the support they can get.

Head bowed....moment of contemplative thought....and a silent prayer in hope those lost have found a place of Peace.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7217295/PICTURED-Wreckage-Bahamas-helicopter-crash-killed-billionaire-Chris-Cline.html

[Arcal76]

Well said SASless !

Cujet, we are not saying that those pilots were not professional or competent.
As a pilot, you spend you life avoiding mistake, you will always do some and you always hope they gone be minimal.
If you read accident reports, full reports with all details, in most cases, pilots had experience, were competent and professional.
You just need a very small period time during a flight to do something wrong who could be " hola, that was close " or "now it's to late" with a bad result.
Pilots are human, not machine, you can fly 10 years without a single mistake or do a bunch of them in a short time.
You never know, sometimes, you get to comfortable in what you do and it brings you on the wrong side because you did not anticipate the problem.

[JGtn]

Recommended gear up to ditch. Float switch arms collective manual override. Immersion should auto activate floats with float switch on or off.

On the AW139, for the floats to deploy automatically or manually, the system has to be armed. When OFF the floats does not deploy.

The automatic operation will occur at ditching thanks to immersed pressure switch located: one in each main landing gear bay and two in the nose wheel well.
As they are pressure switches, it might not activates automatically if the impact was in inverted flight as possibly mentioned earlier.

Regards,
Jerome

[JGtn]

On AW139, the Fly Away kicks in only if a collective axe FD mode is selected and coupled.

[sea plane]

Aircraft was at least Phase 5 with 4 axis enhanced FD. This means that TU (transition up) would have been available to them from zero speed, a great tool in the event of disorientation after departure and below 60kts when the traditional FD modes are not available. As to the safety flyup function, this requires the Collective mode of the FD to have been engaged/captured.

It is great to have all of these aids that we can use, But they cannot always make up for the human factors if the pilot(s) were not current in these exact conditions.
July 2 was the new moon. So....
No moon/deep, dark nigh + transition from over-land to over-water = catastrophic disorientation.
It happens down here all the time unfortunately.

[industry insider]

But we have had automation in helicopters for many years and as long as people are taught how to use it and how to fly without it if it goes wrong there shouldn't be an issue.

If pilots are so rubbish on the sim checks why aren't they failing and being sent for more training.

It seems as though we are all asleep at the wheel here, allowing the standard of piloting to reduce but doing nothing about it.

The children of the magenta is a very real problem and it often seems that the information presented to the pilot is as a result of an engineers design rather than a pilots need. You have to learn and understand how the designers think rather than have the right information, easily presented and with the minimum number of button presses.

Crab, that is an excellent summary.

[sea plane]

Even though we all fly very sophisticated equipment we have to keep in mind the primitive, basic hand flying...or as we say in fixed wing, stick and rudder flying.
No collection of cutting edge equipment can undo failure of the human pilot when we are tired, it's deep night, we are pressured to make a flight, we are making an urgent medical flight and it's a moonless black sky as we make our black hole departure over open ocean waters.

[gulliBell]

..If pilots are so rubbish on the sim checks why aren't they failing and being sent for more training.

Simple. Pilots arrive for their sim checks on a pre-paid course to a set syllabus that includes a defined amount of ground school and simulator time. Usually there is no more money for any more training over and above that. And the commercial reality of the business is, if you start failing pilots on their sim checks the operator (i.e. customer) would just send all their pilots to a different training provider, one with less rigorous standards and more forgiving check airmen. The bottom line is, for the $25K recurrent course cost, they just need the completion certificate and a signature in the log book. The training outcomes are often secondary.

As an instructor and a very small cog in a much bigger multi-cog machine, my approach to the matter is teaching tail rotor and other malfunctions that might seriously bite you, well, there is not enough time for that. The training time is far better spent on teaching the recurrent pilot trainee what buttons to push and when, on a properly serviceable helicopter with no malfunctions, because getting that wrong is far more likely to happen and ruin their day than the tail rotor falling off.

[cujet]

1) You'd think a billionaire could buy himself a higher quality operation.

2) Cujet , fill us in on how this was a professionally managed flight. If we can be forgiven for thinking it sounds Mickey Mouse, perhaps you can explain how things are done there.

1) I work for a billionaire and I fully agree. No need to get into details, but it will suffice to say that aircraft depreciation to the tune of 4 million per year is perfectly acceptable, yet additional staff is not. I provide the best advice I can within the realm of my expertise. Every so often, it's followed.

2) Points taken, little professional about the flight. I can only guess that Geoff felt significant pressure to complete the mission. The reason for the flight is rumored (at F45) to be that Cline's daughter had acute alcohol poisoning. I posted the very same points (emergency, night, international, vfr, over water, no flight plan, no communication) on another forum last night. I added that I believe such conditions leave little room to deal with any additional problems.

Mechanical failure or a technical issue is my guess at this point.

[casuall]

To those speculating as to the pilots abilities: I’ve spent time flying with Geoff and there is no one I would want by my side in an emergency situation more than him. I have seen him practice IFR night flying to stay proficient in anticipation of upcoming flights when he has felt he was out of practice. As for old school flying skills: he had (I believe) over 10,000 hours in Robinson’s (in addition to those in Augusta’s and numerous manufacturer training courses in other helicopters) and told me numerous stories of emergencies he avoided through old school flying skills. He was not easily flustered and he reacted immediately not just quickly. Based on what I have read in the news, and here: I don’t think we can judge him or Dave for agreeing to fly or Cline for asking them to (if that is what happened as the news seems to imply) in light of the circumstances—would you not do everything you can to help your child if you could? Would you not want to help get a sick person off an island with no hospital, particularly if you are a capable pilot in an exceedingly advanced aircraft? However, such circumstances can aggravate the smallest problem into a fatal one. I’m sure the investigation will reveal more telling information but I think that sympathy is the answer here, not just saying this could have been avoided had they followed the rules. That is obvious but it is also a risk that everyone assumed as soon as they stepped in that helicopter in that situation. My heart aches for all of them and for the families of the girls, Cline, Geoff, and Dave. May they all Rest In Peace.

I do agree with the posts about how automation is not the answer to accidents, that human awareness and appropriate response is—and I say the same about cars. However, people often want the best toy out there, assuming advanced automation is equivalent with safety and pilots for those operations are thus obliged to use those advanced machines, as the manufacturer advertises. Demand better training of pilots, demand more user friendly cockpits, demand simpler operations but do not put that blame on two pilots who are in fact proficient in their old school flying skills.

[industry insider]

cujet wrote:

Mechanical failure or a technical issue is my guess at this point.


Its not my guess but I will humbly be corrected if I am wrong.

[Old Dogs]

cujet wrote:



Its not my guess but I will humbly be corrected if I am wrong.

I agree, he was done the minute he turned away from the lights.

[RickNRoll]

So it sounds like unscheduled flight, where the pilots were not properly prepared and rested, when the conditions were challenging, their responses were at not going to be optimum, and the stress of a medical evacuation.

[paco]

Knowing Geoff as i did, my inclination lies towards a tech or mechanical failure, as mentioned above.

"unscheduled flight, where the pilots were not properly prepared and rested, when the conditions were challening, their responses were at not going to be optimum, and the stress of a medical evacuation."

No worse than many of us have done in the military. Maybe one occasion where the automation got in the way.

[gulliBell]

I still don't understand how you can arrive into the United States without having filed a flight plan prior to departure.

An eye witness account reported here:

https://nypost.com/2019/07/06/witness-recounts-harrowing-moment-divers-pulled-chris-clines-body-from-wreckage/

[homonculus]

The reason for the flight is rumored (at F45) to be that Cline's daughter had acute alcohol poisoning.

Lets not call this a Medevac flight any more than taking your child to A and E in your car turns it into an ambulance.

Rushed preparation with a distressed set of passengers, many young and perhaps not used to flying, and a 'patient' who may have been restless'. Lets hope it wasn't disorientation due to passenger disruption like G-CFLT

[rotorspeed]

I do find it hard to believe this was basically pilot error through disorientation. Surely for these two highly experienced presumably IR pilots, it should not have been a big deal? Ok it was probably pitch black soon after transition, but there is nothing resembling high ground to bump into and weather was presumably clear. But this would surely have been a fairly straightforward Cat A departure with ground references then transition to instruments soon after rotation at TDP and climbing away? It seems the aircraft got considerably further away from the take off point than G-LBAL - which was indeed pilot disorientation in fog at night - which might indicate there is a bit more to this.

I'm not familiar with the 139, but could the understandable rush to get airborne have meant that the instrumentation (especially gyros and AI function etc) was not fully on-line, resulting in unreliable instrument indications so early in flight, with obvious consequences?

[gulliBell]

I don't know 139 either, but fair chance it has AHRS and solid state laser gyros and they only take a few moments to come on-line. And before doing any instrument departure you always do an instrument check to confirm proper operation. I doubt very much attitude reference instrumentation has anything to do with this. There was an eye witness at the departure point who saw the aircraft lights disappear into the sea, associated with a loud bang, moments after takeoff. They didn't get very far at all. Short of the tail rotor having fallen off, or some uncommanded hydraulic servo event, it has the hallmarks of a CFIT event. If all the passengers were still strapped into their seats, as reported by the divers, then the entry into the water was probably violent and incapacitating. Supported by the rotors and top deck cowls all missing from the underwater vision. They've probably gone in sideways or upside down.

[[email protected]]

Unfortunately, we don't know the background to the flight in terms of pilot duty time, rest periods etc.

Bear in mind that a SAR or HEMS pilot faced with a 2 am departure will normally have been on duty for a while but should be adequately rested and, more importantly, mentally prepared to go flying in the middle of the night.

As competent as the 2 pilots may have been, if they had not been expecting to fly they would certainly not have been mentally prepared and their activities before the 'call-out' are presently unknown.

A bunch of rich kids getting plastered during spring break is hardly unusual but alcohol poisoning (if that is what it was) smacks of poor parental supervision.

If panic regarding the girls condition prompted the pilots to be dragged out of bed unexpectedly and asked/ordered to fly then the sense of urgency may well have affected their judgement and risk appreciation.

I cannot stress enough how that 2 am job, even when you are prepared for it, is the time to stop, take a deep breath and do some proper planning and preparation before launching.

I hope, for the sake of the pilots reputation and those who have lost loved ones, that it turns out to be a major malfunction rather than CFIT.

Either way it was a tragic loss of young lives.

[gulliBell]

Do corporate pilots ever party with the boss? Or must they always be prepared to fly at any time when deployed with the boss? I can't imagine they were on reserve standby duty with any expectation of flying, especially when it was his birthday, and it seems the daughter and friends were partying/celebrating graduation.

[haihio]

To those speculating as to the pilots abilities: I’ve spent time flying with Geoff and there is no one I would want by my side in an emergency situation more than him. I have seen him practice IFR night flying to stay proficient in anticipation of upcoming flights when he has felt he was out of practice. As for old school flying skills: he had (I believe) over 10,000 hours in Robinson’s (in addition to those in Augusta’s and numerous manufacturer training courses in other helicopters) and told me numerous stories of emergencies he avoided through old school flying skills. He was not easily flustered and he reacted immediately not just quickly. Based on what I have read in the news, and here: I don’t think we can judge him or Dave for agreeing to fly or Cline for asking them to (if that is what happened as the news seems to imply) in light of the circumstances—would you not do everything you can to help your child if you could? Would you not want to help get a sick person off an island with no hospital, particularly if you are a capable pilot in an exceedingly advanced aircraft? However, such circumstances can aggravate the smallest problem into a fatal one. I’m sure the investigation will reveal more telling information but I think that sympathy is the answer here, not just saying this could have been avoided had they followed the rules. That is obvious but it is also a risk that everyone assumed as soon as they stepped in that helicopter in that situation. My heart aches for all of them and for the families of the girls, Cline, Geoff, and Dave. May they all Rest In Peace.

I do agree with the posts about how automation is not the answer to accidents, that human awareness and appropriate response is—and I say the same about cars. However, people often want the best toy out there, assuming advanced automation is equivalent with safety and pilots for those operations are thus obliged to use those advanced machines, as the manufacturer advertises. Demand better training of pilots, demand more user friendly cockpits, demand simpler operations but do not put that blame on two pilots who are in fact proficient in their old school flying skills.


Wow 10000 hours of Robinson time, that’s a lot of Robinson flying time.

As for good or even very good pilots making catastrophic mistakes.... unfortunately It has happened before and it can continue to happen.

[Agile]

with a 2 am departure crew should be adequately rested and, more importantly, mentally prepared to go flying in the middle of the night.


Absolutely correct, but i know Geoff was making the majority of his cloud 9 business with the transfers to private islands (principally with one unknown client, its client friends and contractors). I can honestly assume that he had been flying the route to the Bahamas several hundreds of times, in a wide variety of conditions. in that context its easy to get more and more complacent with the risks and yield to more and more undo able missions.

Pardon my question: but how do your clear custom at 3am at F45?, would you even have to clear custom while flying VFR without a flight plan?

[Kulwin Park]

For the non-USA based people,what is "F45"?

[casuall]

For the non-USA based people,what is "F45"?
Kulwin Park It is North County Airport where he based out of. Presumably they would have flown directly to a hospital or an airport with customs (and called ahead to have ambulances standing by as they got close to the US) not to F45 which is like 30 minutes from a hospital.

[gulliBell]

Photo of the accident aircraft recovered from the ocean. None of the MR blades are attached.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/696x412/screen_shot_2019_07_08_at_21_20_35_e6d6c6fe883eccf00ad61eccd 67a447d43f53922.png

[Kulwin Park]

The wreckage recovered. Details here:Wreckage, black box of tragic helicopter crash recoveredLocal (https://ewnews.com/category/local), The Big Story (https://ewnews.com/category/the-big-story) July 8, 2019July 7, 2019 (https://ewnews.com/wreckage-black-box-of-tragic-helicopter-crash-recovered) Tamara McKenzie (https://ewnews.com/author/tamara-mckenzie)https://i2.wp.com/ewnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/e491ece9-226f-4a39-b931-b155d45f585c-e1562557406355.jpg?fit=625%2C344&ssl=1 Seven crash victims identifiedNASSAU, BAHAMAS – The wreckage of the 15-seater Agusta SPA helicopter that crashed in waters off Big Grand Cay, Abaco last Thursday, which killed all seven passengers onboard, was recovered from waters on Saturday and sent to Fort Lauderdale, Florida for further inspection and investigation.An official of the Air Accident and Investigation Department (AAID) also confirmed last night that the helicopter’s Blackbox was located and it will be shipped to a recorder’s lab in Washington, DC for analysis, and to determine if there is any information to indicate what may have led to last Thursday’s crash.https://i0.wp.com/ewnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/9e10c4f8-bf24-4677-a895-95f69d72999d.jpg?resize=265%2C472&ssl=1“The wreckage was all recovered yesterday and we started mapping out the area on Friday, ensuring that we had the debris field identified,” Air Accident and Investigation Department Chief Investigator Delvin Major told Eyewitness News Online last night.“Yesterday was when they started actually bringing everything up, once the area was mapped to find where everything was located.

“Then there was the process of bringing every piece [of debris] up to the surface and it was placed on a barge.

“The barge left the site about 10p.m. last night [Saturday] and it should have arrived at 4:30 this afternoon [Sunday].”Major said he is expected to depart the capital today for Florida, where he will meet with a team of professionals to analyze each piece of the wreckage.“We will take the wreckage to a facility where we will lay it out and document items to verify that we got all of the aircraft from the ocean. Then we will have some other experts and some manufacturers of the aircraft’s engines come in. They are also meeting us there [in Florida], so each entity will be looking and documenting to make sure that their product is there,” Major explained.“Once it is all confirmed that everything is there, then the next step is to zero down on what could have possibly caused it [the crash] and when that happens, those components that may be suspect will be gathered and sent to another facility under more controlled circumstances where it can be further analyzed and tested.”In an earlier interview with Eyewitness News Online shortly after last week’s crash, Major confirmed that the helicopter was registered in the United States and its engines were manufactured in Canada. He said both U.S. authorities and Canadian authorities were notified of the crash and the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) had also committed to lending its assistance to the investigation. Local police on Saturday officially identified the seven persons who were killed in last week’s helicopter crash as:

Christopher Cline, 60, of New York
Kameron Nicole Cline, 22, of Washington, DC
Delaney Lee Wykyle, 20, of Washington, DC
Brittney Layne Searson, 21, of Palm Beach, Florida
Jillian Nicole Clarke, 22, of Los Angeles, California
Davis Jude, 57, of Kentucky
Geoffrey Lee Painter, 52, of Barnes Staple, United Kingdom (Pilot)

The Royal Bahamas Police Force (RBPF) said it received a report that the helicopter, registration N32CC, took off from Big Grand Cay around 2a.m. last Thursday, July 4, en route to Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.Authorities said the aircraft was reported missing to the Royal Bahamas Police Force at about 2:53p.m. last Thursday, after it did not arrive at the intended destination.“Police officers and residents of Grand Cay, later discovered the aircraft overturned in 16 ft. of water, off Grand Cay. The bodies of four females and three males were retrieved from the aircraft,” the RBPF said. “The Department of Civil Aviation, the Royal Bahamas Police and Defence Force are leading the investigation into the aircraft crash and will provide updates as needed.” Last night, Major, the AAID Chief Investigator said the exact cause of the crash will not be determined anytime soon.“We would not know that for some time until we establish, through further analysis, if something in the machine may have gone wrong, but in the meantime, we are also looking at the role the pilot played as far as his training, his familiarity with the area, his familiarity with flying at night,” Major said.“We are also looking at whether the weather played a role, so there is quite a bit of factors that goes into what may have caused it, so we can’t say what may have caused it until we’ve gotten all of those reports.“We have sent requests to the Met Office for the weather report and to Air Traffic Control for tracking information, so it is a lot of players that come together and once we have gotten all of that information, we would sit down and start analyzing what we were are able to gather from all the information.”Meanwhile, one the victims on the ill-fated helicopter was billionaire tycoon Christopher Cline, who died one day before his 61st birthday. Cline was estimated to be worth $1.8 billion at the time of his death, according to Forbes.According to the Sun-Sentinel, Cline began toiling in the mines of southern West Virginia at a young age, rising through the ranks of his father’s company quickly before forming his own energy development business, the Cline Group, which grew into one of the country’s top coal producers.He went on to amass a fortune and became a major Republican donor.Clarke, Searson and Wykle, other passengers on the ill-fated helicopter, were said to be friends of Cline’s daughter, Kameron Nicole Cline, who also perished in last week’s crash.Clark, Searson and Kameron Cline recently graduated from Louisiana State University. The trio were sorority sisters and were members of Phi Mu sorority. The girls were reportedly joined on the fourth of July trip by Wykle, who attended West Virginia University.Last night, Major said he had been in contact over the weekend with family members of the victims who are now in the Bahamas to identify and claim their loved ones.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x352/image_85e4cf5d898ee630cd4810fc91724199edf00b04.png


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1280/image_fc92ebfc98aec7f68b9c3b721a6e74691132fac8.png

[LagMode]

F45 is the airport where Cloud9 Helicopters is based. This flight wouldn’t have gone there though. I believe it was stated that they were headed to Ft Lauderdale, where they could have cleared customs.


On a separate note...
... they drilled a perfectly good aircraft into the water two miles from departure.


Has it been established that this was a perfectly good aircraft?

Looking at the images, does the damage on the port side (door track and skin pushed inboard, gear sponson cover torn off) fit the CFIT story? Or does it suggest some sort of loss of control with a significant sideward velocity component at impact?

[rottenjohn]

A similar situation to a recent accident in NZ perhaps which although didn’t end as tragically. Darkness, apparently someone is needing medical attention and over ocean flying. I haven’t gone through it all but was an IFR plan filed ? Night VFR is not permitted so I’m interested to know what procedures were in place. Did pressure come from above?

[noooby]

Initial thoughts are of a nose down left bank entry into the water at speed, hence the LH sponson is torn off. Which is not that easy to do as that is some VERY strong structure. MR blades all hit the water fast and disintegrated, along with some of the MR Head by the look of it. Which is also not easy to do as it is Titanium and also VERY strong.

What is concerning is that it looks like the floats have been removed and the blanking covers have been installed. Need a clearer photo of under the baggage bay door but it does look like the floats are not there.

But why the entry into the water. Hopefully we get an initial report soon with an initial FDR readout.

[sprag47]

Do corporate pilots ever party with the boss? Or must they always be prepared to fly at any time when deployed with the boss? I can't imagine they were on reserve standby duty with any expectation of flying, especially when it was his birthday, and it seems the daughter and friends were partying/celebrating graduation.

The most pertinent post so far. A medical emergency at 0200 on a remote island. The crew may have been on standby (they may have been in bed asleep for all we know at this point), but asleep or wide awake I doubt they were expecting to be asked to fly at this hour. What a difficult position for a pilot to be in.

[JohnDixson]

Does the fact that the pics show the main rotor head and blades completely gone, and the tail completely gone, generate any other thoughts?

[SASless]

Analysis of the debris field will determine if all of the major components were present....all main rotor blades, tail rotor blades, gear boxes, drive shafts, and thus rule out loss of those in-flight.

Engine and gearbox examinations will determine if they were operating at the time of impact with the water.

Hopefully, the CVR/FDR if installed and still functional will generate other information that will point to a cause.

One thing is for sure....that aircraft hit the water with a great deal of force and very suddenly.

[Airbubba]

Looks like the investigation has now been turned over to the NTSB from this tweet.

The NTSB is investigating the crash of an Augusta AW-139 that crashed in Grand Cay, Bahamas, on 7/4/19. Investigation has been delegated to the NTSB by the Bahamas.9:56 AM - 8 Jul 2019 [The timestamp appears to be Pacific Daylight Time - Airbubba]

https://twitter.com/NTSB_Newsroom/status/1148274676256378880

[sea plane]

I say moon-less night (July 2 was the new moon) and black hole departure transitioning from over land to over water either lead to the demise of the flight (spatial disorientation) or contributed very significantly with zero time and zero visual reference to save a mechanically impaired craft. Happens all the time down here even with most experienced pilots. That night was one of the darkest of the moon cycle. It was a very dark night. I flew that night in South Florida.

[Airbubba]

From the Bahamas AAID Facebook page:

The AAID has delegated the investigation of this accident to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) n the USA. Going forward all questions or concerns are to be directed there. Mr. Timothy Monville is now the Investigator in Charge.
All further updates will be given by the NTSB.

July 8, 2019
The Flight and data recorders (Blackbox) for the helicopter have been shipped to the National Transportation Safety Board in Washington DC, USA for analysis.
Investigators currently on site documenting wreckage to determine the complete craft was recovered.
No new time when an update will be given.

https://www.facebook.com/baaid.mota/ (https://www.facebook.com/baaid.mota/)

[Airbubba]

I doubt the NTSB will even look at it being part 91 and in a different country.


Here's a series of USA Today articles on the NTSB's handling of high profile investigations involving public figures:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/04/celebrity-plane-crash-victims/70053950/

[212man]

Does the fact that the pics show the main rotor head and blades completely gone, and the tail completely gone, generate any other thoughts?
I don’t think the head is missing - you can see the drag dampers still attached. Strange there are no torn blade roots though.

Interesting that G-LABL has been mentioned because the previous Haughey accident (G-HAUG) shared something with this one - nobody knew it was missing until the next day!

[SASless]

I shall ask a rhetorical question here......it is based upon a previous question that was asked about the Floats on the accident aircraft and the reply...that there might not. have been any installed. (We do not know if there were or were not.)

If it is discovered there were no floats installed....and had been removed for some unknown reason....what other deficiencies existed in the aircraft systems, equipment, procedures, and policies?

Very quickly....I can see the case for a very thorough FAA Investigation of that Operator....should there be no floats installed.

That would turn out very ugly in short order I would bet.

Disclaimer: Until we learn of the existence and serviceability of the float system....this is all supposition.


212Man.....just like a Bristow Bell 412 Crash in Nigeria as I recall....the one that did the Texaco Casevac into Port Harcourt and was not known to be missing until the Hospital began to inquire of the whereabouts of the patient they had been told to be ready to receive.

[206Fan]

The most pertinent post so far. A medical emergency at 0200 on a remote island. The crew may have been on standby (they may have been in bed asleep for all we know at this point), but asleep or wide awake I doubt they were expecting to be asked to fly at this hour. What a difficult position for a pilot to be in.

Taken from post #74!

​The night before, me and my brother-in-law, we watched the chopper come in,” McIntosh told The Guardian yesterday.

“We watched it land and in about half an hour it [went] back up.

“As it [went] back up, it didn’t get very high. It went up and in about five minutes it just ‘boop’.

[sprag47]

Taken from post #74!

​

Ok, well, uhh, I must be missing something....not sure what your point is with the eyewitness quote.

[Lonewolf_50]

@206Fan
If the NTSB report concludes "it just boop" it will be a fine report indeed. :E

I am interested to learn where the tail pylon is. Hopefuly that will become clear shortly, and they just haven't pulled it out of the ocean yet.

[206Fan]

Ok, well, uhh, I must be missing something....not sure what your point is with the eyewitness quote.

Thomas, I was just stating from the eyewitness account that the aircraft landed thirty minutes prior to departing again, so the pilot(s) most likely weren't asleep!

​​​​​​

[KiwiNedNZ]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/540x960/nintchdbpict000503881673_87db56500121103519bf88b6d8052b19c49 37415.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/nintchdbpict000503881676_1c7a49f01f6908c572953825bbae035f76f 45fc1.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x657/nintchdbpict000503337780_b6080818960e0a36c402489dc7f97a451fb b5e94.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x800/bahamas_helicopter_crash_pics_show_chopper_being_lifted_from _the_3f6f02132c5b111729d7561dc242b280a47b3c67.jpg

[PAXboy]

(from an outsider) One aspect of humans is that: The more money they get, the more likely they are to forget where they came from and the nature of being an employee. Note I say 'likely' not all. They can quickly get used to having things at their disposal and believing that they know the correct solution - after all is that not how they became successful and wealthy?

It may well be that the option of local medical support whilst the patient was stabilised was not fully considered and the rush to 'home' in the USA began. If it turns out that no flight plan was filed, that would indicate heavy pressure to 'fix it on the run'.

No surprise that Bahamas handed this off. They do not want to be the ones to find fault with an American of influence.

[sprag47]

Thomas, I was just stating from the eyewitness account that the aircraft landed thirty minutes prior to departing again, so the pilots most likely weren't asleep!

​​​​​​

My point was that they were not expecting a middle-of-the-night emergency flight. And they could have been awakened to reposition the ship to the house or wherever the pick-up point was. It was certainly after midnight when all this took place...unless they departed FL to go get the pax.

[sprag47]

Not sure why the investigation would be "delegated" to the NTSB by Bahamas since it's a US-registered aircraft. I would think if an N-numbered helicopter crashed in Cairo the NTSB would lead the investigation. Maybe I'm wrong.....

[malabo]

If you are experienced and current on black-hole helipad departures it is a purely mechanical exercise, more so with a 139 that will transition easily to forward flight without loss of altitude. From the hover all references are on your panel with sequential power and attitude changes. Has been done safely for years even in helicopters with no AFCS at all. We’d practise engine failures before and after rotation from a night helideck at the 139 sim every year.

With the impact damage seen, flotation isn’t especially relevant. Except as a disparaging comment on aircraft management if it wasn’t there. Pretty sure the previous owner had floats and Phase4 - noooby? Under Part 91 I don’t know what is required in addition to life jackets on board for all occupants. I’d insist on floats and rafts for a 150nm overwater trip with passengers, but that’s just me.

We don’t know where the aircraft was hiding out prior to landing to pick up passengers at 2am. Entry and exit from the Bahamas has to be from an AOE, closest would be Nassau. Was it headed for KFLL (24 hr customs) direct or via MYNN? If I’m departing from a remote location in the US or Canada I ask for an “assumed departure” when I file a flight plan - that way my flight plan opens automatically, even if I were to crash on takeoff.

[gulliBell]

Not sure why the investigation would be "delegated" to the NTSB by Bahamas since it's a US-registered aircraft....

ICAO ANNEX 13 refers. The State of occurrence is responsible for all aircraft accident investigations. They can delegate to a different State should they so wish.

[sprag47]

ICAO ANNEX 13 refers. The State of occurrence is responsible for all aircraft accident investigations. They can delegate to a different State should they so wish.

Got it. I stand corrected. Read 49 CFR...the Country/State of the accident unless in international waters.

[Kulwin Park]

I don’t think the head is missing - you can see the drag dampers still attached. Strange there are no torn blade roots though.


You're right !! On the above pictures, there is no sign of the blades at all, even the rod end of the Damper has torn off taking any part of the blade & that claw fitting with it. Very strange. It's almost like the inner blade root hub has cracked, and failed under high loads in translational flight, letting the blades go, leaving just the inner hub ring where the dampers attach to? A weird one if you just analyse the pictures..........

[nomorehelosforme]

Not sure why the investigation would be "delegated" to the NTSB by Bahamas since it's a US-registered aircraft. I would think if an N-numbered helicopter crashed in Cairo the NTSB would lead the investigation. Maybe I'm wrong.....

TC,

There have been a few crashes in the UK with N-Registered aircraft that were not investigated by the NTSB, probably because of the nationality of those involved or owning the aircraft. I guess things could get complicated if an aircraft, regardless of its country of registration, is owned by a secretive off shore company.

[gulliBell]

Is that a pelican size hole in the pilots windshield?


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/308x233/screen_shot_2019_07_09_at_08_38_45_400b967a736d9dd333117925b 275a6842d39d224.png

[JohnDixson]

Much better pics. I’m looking for the upper attachment of the two rotating scissors-anyone see them?

[noooby]

Is that a pelican size hole in the pilots windshield?


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/308x233/screen_shot_2019_07_09_at_08_38_45_400b967a736d9dd333117925b 275a6842d39d224.png


No, that is an acrylic windshield that has deformed, probably due to huge hydraulic (sea water) loads on it.

[noooby]

You're right !! On the above pictures, there is no sign of the blades at all, even the rod end of the Damper has torn off taking any part of the blade & that claw fitting with it. Very strange. It's almost like the inner blade root hub has cracked, and failed under high loads in translational flight, letting the blades go, leaving just the inner hub ring where the dampers attach to? A weird one if you just analyse the pictures..........


Look closer. The blades don't mount to the head do they, they mount to the tension links. The tension links got wiped out on impact with sea water, hence the blades are gone. The tension links are composite.

When you find the blades you'll find the bolts and the tension links still attached but broken.

[noooby]

If you are experienced and current on black-hole helipad departures it is a purely mechanical exercise, more so with a 139 that will transition easily to forward flight without loss of altitude. From the hover all references are on your panel with sequential power and attitude changes. Has been done safely for years even in helicopters with no AFCS at all. We’d practise engine failures before and after rotation from a night helideck at the 139 sim every year.

With the impact damage seen, flotation isn’t especially relevant. Except as a disparaging comment on aircraft management if it wasn’t there. Pretty sure the previous owner had floats and Phase4 - noooby? Under Part 91 I don’t know what is required in addition to life jackets on board for all occupants. I’d insist on floats and rafts for a 150nm overwater trip with passengers, but that’s just me.

We don’t know where the aircraft was hiding out prior to landing to pick up passengers at 2am. Entry and exit from the Bahamas has to be from an AOE, closest would be Nassau. Was it headed for KFLL (24 hr customs) direct or via MYNN? If I’m departing from a remote location in the US or Canada I ask for an “assumed departure” when I file a flight plan - that way my flight plan opens automatically, even if I were to crash on takeoff.


Yeah, I don't recall if this was 4.8 or 5.6. Definitely had floats. Hard cover floats. First picture on this thread with it in N-reg shows floats. But the photos just above do not. The hard covers over the floats are very fragile and quite obvious. And I don't see them yet. Wouldn't make much of a difference probably but still something that the FAA may not be happy about.

[OvertHawk]

TC,

There have been a few crashes in the UK with N-Registered aircraft that were not investigated by the NTSB, probably because of the nationality of those involved or owning the aircraft. I guess things could get complicated if an aircraft, regardless of its country of registration, is owned by a secretive off shore company.



As already stated above, under ICAO Annexe 13 the responsibility for investigating any civil aircraft accident lies with the country of occurrence (regardless of where the aircraft is registered or who was onboard it). As also said that country may delegate responsibility to another agency - it is common for smaller countries to have agreements with larger countries.

Investigators from other nations are usually invited to send "Accredited Representatives" to advise and participate in the investigation. These countries would normally include: The state of registration; the state of airframe manufacturer, the state of engine manufacturer and; states with large representations in the passenger manifest. Any information required from organisations within these countries (eg the manufacturer) is supposed to be requested through the accredited representative of the investigation agency (although in practice this is often rubber stamped at the beginning of the investigation and direct contact between the lead investigator and the manufacturer takes place).

However, the state of occurrence retains primacy unless it devolves authority.

So to the above comment - an N reg crash in the UK would not be investigated by the NTSB - It would be investigated by UK AAIB, who would (depending on severity and necessity) invite NTSB to observe / contribute as necessary.

Hope that's helpful
OH

[SASless]

Cannot the 139 Autopilot system do a takeoff from the hover, climb out, then level at a predetermined altititude....with just a couple of "button" pushes?

Is that not being taught to the Pilots in training?

[gulliBell]

His Attorney is now being quoted "A mechanical issue may have caused the helicopter crash that killed seven people...according to an attorney for one of the victims. The evidence points to catastrophic mechanical failure, probably having to do with the tail,” Brian Glasser told MetroNews’ Hoppy Kercheval.

I'm yet to see a photo of the tail boom, tail rotor or main rotor blades. You just don't see them on any of the barge photos.

[BaronG]

His Attorney is now being quoted "A mechanical issue may have caused the helicopter crash that killed seven people...according to an attorney for one of the victims. The evidence points to catastrophic mechanical failure, probably having to do with the tail,” Brian Glasser told MetroNews’ Hoppy Kercheval.

I'm yet to see a photo of the tail boom, tail rotor or main rotor blades. You just don't see them on any of the barge photos.

Well a word of caution - the attorney will chase the money and there’s more money in Leonardo’s pockets than the estates of the pilots.

Either way - it’s worrying if it is a structural failure for the rest of the fleet but I’d be more than happy to see the pilots absolved of the blame heaped on them so quickly in this thread.

[SASless]

I disagree with "blame" being assessed.

Topics have cropped up and the discussion has been far more about those than criticizing the two Pilots.

The comments in general have been very supportive of the pilots as they seem to be very well regarded by those that know them.

Many times posts have been made clearly stating it is hoped a mechanical failure of some kind caused the crash....which could happen to any of us.

Simple truth is....it could have been any of us as we are all human....and thus are subject to make mistakes.

The investigation is just beginning and no one at this point that is in the know....has gone on record.

I put zero credence in some Lawyer's comments at this point and even then one has to consider what bias said Lawyer brings to the microphone when he speaks.

[JimEli]

Yeah, I don't recall if this was 4.8 or 5.6. Definitely had floats. Hard cover floats. First picture on this thread with it in N-reg shows floats. But the photos just above do not. The hard covers over the floats are very fragile and quite obvious. And I don't see them yet. Wouldn't make much of a difference probably but still something that the FAA may not be happy about.

Why would the FAA be unhappy?

[SASless]

The FAR's are not exactly written by scholars for sure.

First thing you have to do is figure out which FAR's apply to the Operation.

If it is a part 91, non-air tour operation, the Rules go awfully vague about floats.

The question becomes who owns the aircraft, is it a lease, charter, privately owned and operated, used in an Air Taxi operation when not being used by the owner, etc.....

When you get all that figured out then you can begin to sort out which rule applies.

I am sure the insurance company will have an interest in all of this.

Keep in mind the FAR's are "Airplane" centric and evolve rather than being written anew thus be careful to remember it must state "aircraft", "helicopter" or "rotorcraft" to apply uniquely to helicopters.

When it specifies "airplane" than it applies only to airplanes.

Commonsense tells one that floats, personal flotation devices, life rafts, and emergency beacon(s) would be reasonable for flights to/from the Islands.....but would they be "required" is altogether different issue.

[Cabby]

Re a previous AW139 which lost its tail boom in Qatar while on the ground. Something to look at when the tail boom photo's surface.
Photo link of previous incident.
https://www.avweb.com/news/tail-boom-separates-from-aw139/#aw139TailBoomSeparationGallery

Previous PPrune thread.
https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/386491-aw139-lost-tail-taxying-doh-16.html

[gulliBell]

...Commonsense tells one that floats, personal flotation devices, life rafts, and emergency beacon(s) would be reasonable for flights to/from the Islands.....but would they be "required" is altogether different issue.

Common sense, yes, but floats probably not mandated. When a helicopter is operating beyond autorotational distance from land, all occupants should be wearing a life jacket, and not just have a life jacket within reach. Having 2 engines shouldn't have any bearing on this aspect. Not that wearing life jackets would have affected the outcome in this instance. Nor floats fitted for that matter.

[Non-PC Plod]

Cannot the 139 Autopilot system do a takeoff from the hover, climb out, then level at a predetermined altititude....with just a couple of "button" pushes?

Is that not being taught to the Pilots in training?

Not if it had phase 4 software, which I think I read earlier.

[Bravo73]

Re a previous AW139 which lost its tail boom in Qatar while on the ground. Something to look at when the tail boom photo's surface.
Photo link of previous incident.
https://www.avweb.com/news/tail-boom-separates-from-aw139/#aw139TailBoomSeparationGallery

Previous PPrune thread.
https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/386491-aw139-lost-tail-taxying-doh-16.html

Is that the same aircraft which had previously had an undeclared tail strike whilst landing offshore?

[212man]

The very same one.
was it undeclared or incorrectly damage assessed and repaired?

[mryan75]

Rich guys have much more opportunity for everything, including getting into trouble. Seems as if there should be a rich guy survival class. What was the right answer to this situation? What were the alternatives? Assuming that the medical emergency was acute, not just uncomfortable. Was it possible to get a medevac from Florida or Nassau? Would that medevac company have been a better qualified operation? I have no idea but Monday morning thinking says that this information should have been part of a Bahama out island SOP. On the other hand no one appreciates being restricted by more rules and regulations. But wouldn't it be nice to know where the line is. I just googled some medevac companies. They do brag about their NVG and IFR training. But I saw no mention of when and if they operate one or two pilot, how they handle dispatch, what crew rest rules they follow...
I thought the same. $10 says these guys have no idea how safe or unsafe their operations are. They hire a reputable charter, and that's that. And 99% of the time there's nothing wrong with that. Interestingly, being a pilot has changed my risk assessment of basically everything I do. Not to assume that its pilot error, but if it is, he had the resources to reduce the risk level. Being out there on your own island in the middle of the sea is a blast... until something bad happens.

[Bell_ringer]

I thought the same. $10 says these guys have no idea how safe or unsafe their operations are. They hire a reputable charter, and that's that. And 99% of the time there's nothing wrong with that. Interestingly, being a pilot has changed my risk assessment of basically everything I do. Not to assume that its pilot error, but if it is, he had the resources to reduce the risk level. Being out there on your own island in the middle of the sea is a blast... until something bad happens.

And yet the stats aren’t dominated by rich guys, they’re full of poor pilots leaving craters in the countryside. They too get away with it 99.9% of the time.

[SASless]

Someone suggested the photo taken of the aircraft pre-crash....and posted here raised a couple of questions about the Mark Tail Rotor blades installed on the aircraft (in the photo).

The comment mentioned "Two Ring" versus "Three Ring" (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10510929) which is meaningless to me but perhaps some of you 139 guys can discuss that for us.

[KiwiNedNZ]

$10 says these guys have no idea how safe or unsafe their operations are. They hire a reputable charter, and that's that.

You obviously dont know much about Chris Cline or his ops otherwise you would know he has a whole aviation department that consists of Embraer business jet, AW139, just took delivery of a new H130T2 and also I think has the Koala. So just hiring a company is totally off the mark in this case.

[Cabby]

Looking at the area where the accident happened (Grand Cay Island), is there any primary radar covering the area??
Have there been any reports of drug scud running without lights? I wonder if the divers find the wreckage of another aircraft nearby?
Eye witness comments:
"It “didn’t get very high,” Mathien McIntosh, who worked for Cline, told the Guardian newspaper of Nassau in the Bahamas.
“It went up and in about five it just ‘boop.’ The light just disappeared and it was a loud crash. It was a loud bang in the water.”
https://nypost.com/2019/07/06/witness-recounts-harrowing-moment-divers-pulled-chris-clines-body-from-wreckage/

Map of the area.
https://media.nbcboston.com/images/652*367/Grand-Cay-Island.jpg
Its not that from Florida. https://scubadivingresource.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/bahamas-map-2.jpg

Looking at the maps, it reminded me that this is the same area where the Flight 19 Avenger crews, and the rescue PBM Mariner a/c went missing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_19

[gulliBell]

...The comment mentioned "Two Ring" versus "Three Ring" (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10510929) which is meaningless to me but perhaps some of you 139 guys can discuss that for us.

I think, after the tail rotor fell off the Sky Shuttle helicopter in Hong Kong the design was changed to prevent whatever caused it from happening again. Although, I don't think they ever found the tail rotor that fell off. It just disappeared.

[gulliBell]

... just took delivery of a new H130T2 and also I think has the Koala...

I was surprised early on when I read the accident AW139 was bought used. Usually the rich guys order exactly what helicopter and factory fitted options they want, bought new and delivered directly from the factory.

[Self loading bear]

Someone suggested the photo taken of the aircraft pre-crash....and posted here raised a couple of questions about the Mark Tail Rotor blades installed on the aircraft (in the photo).

The comment mentioned "Two Ring" versus "Three Ring" (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10510929) which is meaningless to me but perhaps some of you 139 guys can discuss that for us.

This might relate to the amount of red stripes on the blades?

[gulliBell]

Up to two years to work out what happened, seriously?

You'd think once the recorders were analyzed in the next few weeks they'd have a pretty good idea of what happened.

https://nypost.com/2019/07/09/investigation-into-chris-clines-helicopter-crash-may-take-years/

[ajet32]

Chris was a true gentleman. I was one of 3 Captains who flew his Challenger 850 in 2017/18 .One day in CRW he walked on the airplane after coming off his Embraer 175 acting like he owned it; which he did. Just asked who was who and introduced himself said hello and went his own way. No drama just a really fine fellow. If he bought a used helicopter it was because it was what he needed not that it was cheap. From what I heard as a fixed wing pilot his crew on the rotor side were all very professional and very experienced. When we flew the CH850 we always had 40000 hours plus and close to 50 years of experience in the front seats I doubt he was cheaping out on the rotor side.
Just my comments. Sad to see the loss of all those folks.

[ThreeThreeMike]

A bunch of rich kids getting plastered during spring break is hardly unusual but alcohol poisoning (if that is what it was) smacks of poor parental supervision.

This thread has more than the usual amount of post-crash criticism, but this is ridiculous.

Those young women were all 21 or older. Did they have fully developed decision making ability? Nope. But they were adults, and it's silly to state Cline should have been following them around supervising their behavior.

Your wealth envy is showing.

[sea plane]

You're not right. There is tons of IMC here in Florida. We fly deep fog west coast, heavy thunderstorms during months from May-November the whole state and then there's the over open sea night flying that is very common here. We all do it regularly. But, as I mentioned previously, with a moon-less night, transitioning from over land to over water is the deepest IMC you will ever fly. Tragedy happens down here all the time on moon-less nights even with the most experienced pilots. It was either the direct cause or contributed greatly. July 2 was the new moon. This accident happened July 3, not much difference in conditions. I flew that night, July 3rd and it was deep IMC over water.

[gulliBell]

Six of those seven souls have been repatriated back to the United States. Reports suggest investigators are still accounting for all the aircraft parts.

https://ewnews.com/bodies-of-six-helicopter-crash-victims-flown-back-to-us-today

[[email protected]]

Mike 33 Those young women were all 21 or older. Did they have fully developed decision making ability? Nope. But they were adults, and it's silly to state Cline should have been following them around supervising their behavior. Your wealth envy is showing.No wealth envy just parenting! My youngest son is 21 and a rugby player at university - he can decide how much he drinks but we will always caution him about excess with alcohol, especially with spirits. I have seen spring break in Florida and kids go crazy, often because they are not used to drinking much at university while they are studying - then they are let off the leash. Ask the local hospitals how many alcohol related admissions they have during that period.

I'm not saying he has to follow them around but he should at least be aware what they are drinking - he was also responsible for the other girls whose parents would assume they were in a safe environment. You said they don't have fully developed decision making ability - which is further impaired by booze - it's just responsible parenting.

[ThreeThreeMike]

Fair enough. I overreacted.

[Superterminal]

Mike 33 No wealth envy just parenting! My youngest son is 21 and a rugby player at university - he can decide how much he drinks but we will always caution him about excess with alcohol, especially with spirits.

I'm not saying he has to follow them around but he should at least be aware what they are drinking - he was also responsible for the other girls whose parents would assume they were in a safe environment. You said they don't have fully developed decision making ability - which is further impaired by booze - it's just responsible parenting.

Completely disagree. They are all adults so fully capable of making their own decisions. The idea that he should be aware what they are drinking at 2am is ludicrous! How would he be unless he is awake and sneaking around checking up on them? Of course they are young adults and likely to over drink.. but you never did too? It is how we all learn.

Also dislike how you imply it is his responsibility that the other girls weren't in a "safe environment" Jees the amout of times me and my friends stumbled back into whoever's house at 4am completely wasted with no idea where anyone else was. Here you have a billionaire decide at 2am to dedicate a highly advanced helicoptor, from what sounds so far like a professional setup, with 2 instrument rated pilots solely to fly them to a hospital and to go with them too... How much more could he do?

[212man]

I have seen spring break in Florida and kids go crazy, often because they are not used to drinking much at university while they are studying - then they are let off the leash.

Probably more related to the alcohol drinking age laws

[[email protected]]

Superterminal - I am guessing you have never had to deal with someone with alcohol poisoning or you might not be so cavalier with your attitude - if you have other people in your house, you are responsible for them whether you like it or not.

There is a very big difference between being drunk and being incapable due to alcohol poisoning - one can be fun but the other is easily avoided.

The problem is many people underestimate the effect of spirits and how your blood alcohol level can continue to rise to dangerous levels for a long while after you have stopped throwing it down your neck.

Some thread drift here - didn't mean my throwaway line about spring break to cause such offence.

212 man - good point.

[UKExpat]

Looking into the Qatar A139 boom failure on the ground - would this aircraft (being a 2008 model) have still had the old/original composite nomex honeycomb boom vs. the new aluminium boom?

[Winnie]

Not that it has any implication whatever on this thread, but the aircraft was painted in the London Air Service colors, they are a VIP outfit in Vancouver, Canada. Can be why he bought that particular machine.

Regards
H.

[Superterminal]

Superterminal - I am guessing you have never had to deal with someone with alcohol poisoning or you might not be so cavalier with your attitude - if you have other people in your house, you are responsible for them whether you like it or not.

There is a very big difference between being drunk and being incapable due to alcohol poisoning - one can be fun but the other is easily avoided.

The problem is many people underestimate the effect of spirits and how your blood alcohol level can continue to rise to dangerous levels for a long while after you have stopped throwing it down your neck.

Some thread drift here - didn't mean my throwaway line about spring break to cause such offence.

212 man - good point.

No I've never had to deal with alcohol poisoning but that's irrelevant to my point. My point was in relation to you implying that it's his fault or he was in any way responsible for the others, when he had basically done everything money (and a lot of money) could do to get them to a hospital.

And FYI having lost 8 friends all 20 - 30 years old in the last 10 years to the various sports and hobbies I do I am the least "cavalier" person about.

Anyway irrelevant thread drift like you say.

[[email protected]]

Superterminal - consider the logic - supervise the drinking and keep it to non-excessive levels = no alcohol poisoning (if indeed that was the reason for the flight) = no 2 am sortie in a rush = no accident (whatever the cause) = seven lives saved just for the want of a little control.

If you believe three 21 year-old highschool/university girls from a country where they can't drink until 21 should be allowed unfettered access to booze, then maybe think about it a bit more before you become a parent of teenagers.

[SASless]

Crab.....please.....can we stick to relevant issues here.

I have been called out in rat **** weather in the dark to deliver newspapers and a copying machine to a North Sea Oil Rig.....it doesn't't matter why you get dispatched if the flight falls within the Law, Rules, Regulations, SOP's, etc.

You get called....you check weather, notams, pre-flight, and go carry out your flight.

In the USA...we can file a flight plan in the air or by telephone....even those cellular or satellite kinds of talking bones.

US Customs needs a one hour notification at AOE airports.

The Bahamas may have a requirement for IFR clearances at night....but we do have to remember it is the Bahamas and not the UK.

Can we stick to the aviation part of this tragedy and not wander off down the rabbit hole you seem focused upon now?

[[email protected]]

Sasless - i think you'll find that I didn't start this rabbit-hole journey.

The aviation element here is that without the need for the flight, the accident wouldn't have happened so it is hardly unrelated.

Your statement about being called out in crap weather to deliver newspapers is far less relevant to this thread than any of my comments.

[JohnDixson]

Re the impression left by a few posts using the “ rush “ word, has there been any reporting from those not making the flight as to the timeline associated with this event?

[Pittsextra]

What is most depressing about this is the fact despite all the technology, the regulation and the smart men in the room it seems relatively easy for very many experienced hands to believe it is entirely credible for a 10 buck helicopter to be drilled by 2 professional pilots just after take off and then the view explained by flakey process that many seem comfortable expressing. That doesn't seem cool even if it is a reality.

[Bravo73]

Looking into the Qatar A139 boom failure on the ground - would this aircraft (being a 2008 model) have still had the old/original composite nomex honeycomb boom vs. the new aluminium boom?

You are barking up a red herring.

The tailboom on that Qatari aircraft failed because it had previously been whacked on a deck. AW139s do not have a reputation or history of their tailbooms falling in flight.

Neither do the newer, improved ‘3 banded’ tail rotor blades.

[sprag47]

Thank you...glad someone finally put this to rest. Now if we can get off the absence of floats, tail rotor stripes, and parental behavior.....

[cujet]

Rumor has it that the tailboom was found about 500 feet from the helicopter. Absolutely, positively, unconfirmed.

[gulliBell]

...The aviation element here is that without the need for the flight, the accident wouldn't have happened so it is hardly unrelated..

If the tail boom fell off, the circumstances of the flight then become virtually meaningless. If it didn't fall off when it did, it was going to fall off on the next (or a subsequent) flight under entirely different operational dispatch circumstances.

[SASless]

Nothing has indicated the Tail Boom "fell off".

Rumor has it that the tail boom was found "500 feet" away.

Current and wind could explain it being that far away from the rest of the aircraft....even if it separated upon impact with the water for some other reason.

[UKExpat]

You are barking up a red herring.

The tailboom on that Qatari aircraft failed because it had previously been whacked on a deck. AW139s do not have a reputation or history of their tailbooms falling in flight.

Neither do the newer, improved ‘3 banded’ tail rotor blades.

Are you sure?

[gulliBell]

Yeah, I know. Just saying, if it did fall off. But it is unusual for the tail boom to completely separate at the aft cabin junction. Most of the helicopter crashes into water that I've seen, tail boom or remnants of tail boom remain somewhat still connected by cables or hydraulic lines or whatever. But this is the first high speed crash of an AW139 into water that I've seen (al-be-it photos only).

[SansAnhedral]

The tailboom on that Qatari aircraft failed because it had previously been whacked on a deck. AW139s do not have a reputation or history of their tailbooms falling in flight.


If that were the case, then why did AW redesign the booms after that exact incident? :suspect:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2010-02-22/manufacturer-promises-new-booms-aw139


Manufacturer promises new booms for AW139
by Mark Huber (https://www.ainonline.com/mark-huber)
- February 22, 2010, 9:06 AM

In the wake of the highly publicized tail-boom failure on a Gulf Airways AW139 last August 25, AgustaWestland has been quietly assuring customers with AW139s on order that it will begin equipping them with a new-design tail boom beginning next month. The boom on the Gulf AW139 failed while the aircraft was taxiing in Doha, Qatar, and there were no injuries. That boom exhibited signs of delamination, as have numerous other tail booms, according to operators who spoke to AIN. Some of the delamination is sufficiently severe to require replacement of the entire tail boom. The incident prompted AgustaWestland to issue an Alert Service Bulletin outlining emergency and then repetitive inspection techniques for the AW139’s composite tail boom. The EASA and FAA later issued emergency Airworthiness Directives.

The AW139 airframe and components are made under contract by PZL Swidnik in Poland and Turkish Aerospace Industries. The new boom will employ a different composite technique and use an aluminum skin bonded to honeycomb, according to one U.S.-based AW139 customer who spoke to AIN. Not clear at this point is whether Agusta-Westland will offer the new-design boom to owners of existing AW139s and under what terms.

Operators contacted said that as of yet they have not been offered the new boom for existing helicopters. One said it was “a matter of ongoing negotiation” with AgustaWestland. On February 16, an AgustaWestland spokesman told AIN that the company would issue a statement regarding the AW139 tail boom “in the very near term.”

[Lonewolf_50]

Yeah, I know. Just saying, if it did fall off. But it is unusual for the tail boom to completely separate at the aft cabin junction. Most of the helicopter crashes into water that I've seen, tail boom or remnants of tail boom remain somewhat still connected by cables or hydraulic lines or whatever. But this is the first high speed crash of an AW139 into water that I've seen (al-be-it photos only). About tail booms falling off, or otherwise failing to stay where they are supposed to, whilst rotors are turning.
Circa 1982 in Whiting Field, FL, our trainng in Hueys was curtailed for a few days when one of the Hueys, in a hover, lost its tail boom. They put it down, all walked away, nobody dies.
An inspection of the four attachment bolts on all of our squadrion's Hueys was made. Quite a few were corroded to the point of needing to be replaced, and a whole load of bolts were ordered so that, one at a time, our Hueys were brought back up to serviceable condition
(My memory is hazy a few details there, Jack Carson or a few others who flew Hueys in Whiting may recall the details better than I ... we only got part of the story as flight students).
I'll suggests that most "tail boom just left the aircraft" incidents come as a major surprise.

As to drift of parts after impact: yes, I'll take the line gulliBell suggests unitl further detail is provided.

[henra]

Nothing has indicated the Tail Boom "fell off".
Rumor has it that the tail boom was found "500 feet" away.
Current and wind could explain it being that far away from the rest of the aircraft....even if it separated upon impact with the water for some other reason.

Hmmm, 500ft would be quite aa lot for the shallow water. Depending on what's still attached to the boom it will sink rather quickly.
Also a total separation just upon impact is rather unusual. Those two aspects would at least not rule out a loss off the tail as initiating event.
On the other hand it would be a strange conicidence. Pitch black moonless night. 2 AM in the morning over flat sea, just starting from a private property with possibly sub- optimum lighting for transition into the dark (so all ingredients for spatial disorientation => LoC/CFIT) and then the tail boom falls off.

[Lonewolf_50]

@henra: while the coincidence would be unusual, think about the harsh reality of the Pitch black moonless night. 2 AM in the morning over flat sea, possibly sub- optimum lighting for transition into the dark - and you lose the tail.
Not just that the TR stops turning (tough enough at night wil no visual reference and not a lot of altitude) but the tail boom.
(Based on a mishap from some years ago, (different aircraft type) as the main fuselage swaps ends the airspeed drops rather quickly ... that lateral separation might not be so out to lunch. Depends a lot on wind, and other factors)

That's a hard emergency procedure to train for with VMC as the assumed environment. At night with no horizon? degree of difficulty goes way up.
I'd expect that the upset would be hard to deal with for even the best pilots, when we toss in the surprise factor ...

[henra]

That's a hard emergency procedure to train for with VMC as the assumed environment. At night with no horizon? degree of difficulty goes way up.
I'd expect that the upset would be hard to deal with for even the best pilots, when we toss in the surprise factor ...

'hard emergency procedure to train for' is probably a euphemism...
I'm quite sure loosing the whole tail boom will mess up cg so badly plus strip you of the slightest weather vaning that I would consider that scenario simply unsurvivable (just depending on altitude/impact severity) even in the brightest daylight.

[SASless]

Lone is learning the art of that infamous British understatement thing it appears!

We could throw in a Swash Plate failure as a possible initiating event as well.

My money is on this was a mechanical failure caused event....rather than the stock CFIT thing

Who is in for a Pint of Beer on that?

[gulliBell]

Something has caused all the blades to come off, and all the tail boom to come off. Which of those bits came off first in flight has no bearing on the outcome because neither scenario would be survivable. I'm inclined to think that flying a serviceable helicopter into the water at whatever unusual angle, at the speed they were likely to be traveling so soon after take-off, would not result in the damage observed. So I'm with SASless on this one.

[atakacs]

Who is in for a Pint of Beer on that?

Chalenge accepted.

I'm 99% convinced it was some kind of CFIT. Alas.

[Cabby]

I would have thought the tail would have been nearby if it had been attached to the aircraft when it went into the water.
With the Qatar AW139 losing its tail it did make me wonder about known problems with composite material. The FAA were looking into composite delimitation problems on all composite a/c in 2010.
Vibration has caused a few cracks in some of the a/c made from composites which I've flown.
Salt water can be very corrosive on metal bolts even if operating over land near to the coast from what I've seen in the past..

Anyone heard if they have found the tail, or tail rotor, as the water didn't look very deep? Did the landing site on Grand Cay have any cctv cameras?

Update from the Bahamas air accident investigation unit.. Their facebook page says that 90% of the aircraft has been photographed.
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-1/p50x50/11219032_531610013646770_2062516290460715811_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1 01&_nc_oc=AQn6PkgRoMhCXmEPZ50ceV_Yb_ByxyjGQd4llTIYIfsOACctaCNPL R9evhDdRcG8D6A&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=b91818e6656ec633bc08f042cb60f92f&oe=5DA47FC9 (https://www.facebook.com/baaid.mota/?ref=nf&hc_ref=ARRuLsvpp8qCKpRZCgVFbTG34T7AnKTk9xyiV5DWVOsE4To8lxDMd leH7tuEd_NnVcg&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARBtmN7Cfb4C7H8r-xNf6i6C48yn35fHHxddWzH11OUZi3yJoXFNg3O6-KGpf0ozi8cIpsg0GGVka3Hp7oaJPpBQd88IPrj9yNGOEchv1yQ8CSNlJ2zof CJH5L8Gir0isgtTtj6x9hK7WErqn0wgtrTsXNQ378nKa4RC0bIBHldshpi8Z 3tv8dCYaD_qvvRm4k7N9f37qf6w6rYAC91ByAQX_Laf9L_3zEKyFzhZgzjTi Dpx8W4wqodBcKrpYEcAFpsZ7l0iX6mIfGiPeciNoRPg6NCQgSHYMXRGIfDID RbhXJF6e3wl3Zfrq_kgNdRovC7pj3PGEwbi7tFZIPPUnw&__tn__=%3C-R)

July 9, 2019
Investigation involving N32CC helicopter approximately 90% of the craft has been photographed and documented over the last 2 days. The remainder of the craft will be completed over the next few days.

Components and parts requiring additional analysis have been removed and are being prepared for shipment to additional laboratories and facilities for specialized analysis in a more controlled environment.

No cause(s) or contributing factor(s) to this accident has been determined, as it is too early to say what may have caused it.


=68.ARD-i5wKBqR99Yw0gSBsrj6Ii_AM-btXMxvLxHuWFJPFA_8xrx27ZRSmokSpzq06OzqFp-kAVRCDSeoL36BuNczok6Gks5of-CaM0yq3086vAIM17jkjcFI4kRveSxBJYXXGnI2YdCrIqBC9bdx8zmXihJauj 3-64tVY4a3XbpTtDkV6c7eoYbwLYSpTKaAc0O8OO4jANh5ylxVdzim4-ukQ96bSTxXgCk1zbnQloINNsK6r-XJOOyQLjmlDcR2TIupcj9V7AElilVnIHx6UB4RpV_xSOMj73rZ97t7V0eO2r jfL-dMl6K3IuQPLNpXBUD-OJRX7TEWJmfi1IBseQg&__tn__=kC-R]https://www.facebook.com/baaid.mota/?hc_ref=ARTkSDPxsiOQNV3a7tWWvwTVecMD6VjfTXfwey6fptEyV5ydVzvd vDBXvU2c1pc6FEY&fref=nf&__xts__[0]=68.ARD-i5wKBqR99Yw0gSBsrj6Ii_AM-btXMxvLxHuWFJPFA_8xrx27ZRSmokSpzq06OzqFp-kAVRCDSeoL36BuNczok6Gks5of-CaM0yq3086vAIM17jkjcFI4kRveSxBJYXXGnI2YdCrIqBC9bdx8zmXihJauj 3-64tVY4a3XbpTtDkV6c7eoYbwLYSpTKaAc0O8OO4jANh5ylxVdzim4-ukQ96bSTxXgCk1zbnQloINNsK6r-XJOOyQLjmlDcR2TIupcj9V7AElilVnIHx6UB4RpV_xSOMj73rZ97t7V0eO2r jfL-dMl6K3IuQPLNpXBUD-OJRX7TEWJmfi1IBseQg&__tn__=kC-R (https://www.facebook.com/baaid.mota/?hc_ref=ARTkSDPxsiOQNV3a7tWWvwTVecMD6VjfTXfwey6fptEyV5ydVzvd vDBXvU2c1pc6FEY&fref=nf&__xts__[0)

[Cabby]

The airframe aboard the recovery boat.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ntsb-takes-investigation-bahamas-helicopter-crash-64203194

[sprag47]

It was CFIT. Pitch black moonless night, takeoff over a black ocean at 2 o'clock in the morning from a remote island, with probably little crew rest...but NO! The tailboom fell off just after they were airborne! Please.....

[nomorehelosforme]

I’m inclined to put my pint with SASless , but bearing in mind the extent of the damage to the aircraft will the investigation team/teams really be able to come up with a definitive answer.

[SASless]

The two categories are....Mechanical Malfunction and CFIT.

You can take your pick of any number of events that fall under Mechanical Malfunction or a single choice under the alternative.

Remember the Foot Ball Stadium crash that killed the Team Owner....how many folks went for the Pilot Error option when it was actually a Tail Rotor Control mechanical failure?

We had a real time video of that one and all of the Keyboard Investigators got it wrong early on.

[megan]

My money is on this was a mechanical failure caused event....rather than the stock CFIT thingNot a betting person SAS, but one thing I know is it doesn't matter how much experience one has, you're only as good as your last flight, the next may prove to be the one you cock up right royally. Can recall two 747's that barrel rolled on take off at night into the dirt (water in one case), one a freighter and other a pax, no survivors.

[sprag47]

Boeing 747, Air India flt 855, 1 Jan 78. Departed Bombay on a moonless night out over the Arabian Sea. 213 pax, 18K-hour captain. A mile offshore climbing through 1200' MSL and rolled almost inverted and hit the water 35 deg nosedown at 380 mph. Captain's ADI failed but he ignored the standby and the 1st officer's ADI. 1st officer pretty much just sat there in disbelief, apparently.

[gulliBell]

...1st officer pretty much just sat there in disbelief, apparently.

Yep. Seen that all the time in the simulator. They won't say or do anything to save themselves at the critical moment they should be taking affirmative action to save themselves. They arrive at the scene of the smoking hole in silence, sitting on their hands. Although sometimes, flicking through a checklist and not much else (not suggesting of course that scenario applied in this AW139).

[sprag47]

Yep. Seen that all the time in the simulator. They won't say or do anything to save themselves at the critical moment they should be taking affirmative action to save themselves. They arrive at the scene of the smoking hole in silence, sitting on their hands. Although sometimes, flicking through a checklist and not much else (not suggesting of course that scenario applied in this AW139).

Nor was I suggesting the same cockpit scenario for the AW-139 tragedy....just that some really bad s..t can happen very quickly even with the best pilots and equipment.

[Bell_ringer]

Both scenarios are feasible. Given the conditions and phase of flight, CFIT has claimed many a good man in similar circumstances. Equally, two experienced pilots in a capable aircraft going out this way would raise other questions.
In either case, it is pretty vulgar betting beer on the cause of death of 7 people.

[industry insider]

Sas wrote:

My money is on this was a mechanical failure caused event....rather than the stock CFIT thing


If it was a serious mechanical failure, it could have wide ranging (temporary) consequences for the 139.

[gulliBell]

That depends on what they find...a previous repair or maintenance issue specific to this particular aircraft wouldn't affect the rest of the 139 fleet. It might be as simple as something not bolted on properly, or whatever.

[industry insider]

That depends on what they find...a previous repair or maintenance issue specific to this particular aircraft wouldn't affect the rest of the 139 fleet

Really? Thanks for pointing that out to me.

“Could” used to indicate a possibility.

”Temporary” lasting for only a limited period of time; not permanent

[gulliBell]

You were right, I wasn't disputing anything. A serious mechanical failure could have wide ranging consequences for the 139. As it did for the 169.

[FC80]

Not only is Crab the best pilot in the world, he’s also the best parent in the world!

is there anything he can’t dole out patronising post-event wisdom on?

[SASless]

it is pretty vulgar betting beer on the cause of death of 7 people.

If we were making wagers before the event....I would agree with you to an extent.

How many times have you flown with someone and thought to yourself....."This guy is going to kill himself one day!"...knowing he might just have passengers with him when he does?

If you did think that and said nothing to anyone....especially the nimrod in question at the time....then I see that as doing just that...wagering on the manner of death of people in the future.

[Kiwi500]

I’m with Bell Ringer on this.....rumour mill, forum or whatever, betting pints on who is correct on this doesn’t sit well. We accept that families and loved ones looking for answers on here is not their best move but whether it be mech failure or CFIT it’s the same result. I’m always happy to shout a pint for anyone more experienced or proficient than I (which I am always hopeful is most) that would share their knowledge so I’m hopefully never the subject of a bet. Think about it boys and girls.

[Viper 7]

I'm in the CFIT camp on this one.
This incident has all the holes in the cheese. Dark night, black hole departure, possible circadian rhythm, and perceived pressure from the medical event.

[[email protected]]

Well done FC80, that added a great deal to this thread - you must be so proud.:ugh:

[Toroidal Vortex]

Crab, is your skin getting a bit thin with age? Don't dish it out if you can't take it

[[email protected]]

Crab, is your skin getting a bit thin with age? Don't dish it out if you can't take it


Hmmm, first post Toriodal Vortex to support a knob comment from FC80??? Never seen that before, a new nomdepprune being used to try and save face............

Hardly thin-skinned and I'd love to see where you think I dished it out to deserve such tosh.

Love and kisses.....

[sea plane]

It was a moonless night down here. I do not think it was CFIT (Controlled Flight Into Terrain). This accident speaks more of a spatial disorientation with Uncontrolled Flight into the water due to the level of destruction to the aircraft. We see this all the time down here on moonless nights, transitioning over land to over open water.

Anyone that says these pilots were too experienced to have that happen... you need to reassess yourself and realize it can happen to any pilot regardless of time and experience. If a pilot is not current in the exact conditions of this night then they are at risk. It can happen to any of us.

I flew that night. It was DEEP IMC over the water. DEEP, DARK. Challenging flight conditions for sure. I fly the moonless nights over water regularly down here. It is hard core.

It was 2 am, factor in the time, fatigue, pressure....it can happen to even the best, most experienced pilots. These guys certainly seem top notch but again, spatial disorientation with a very deep hole departure can lead to a crash for any of us....high or low time.

[etudiant]

It may be prejudice, but I'm in the mechanical failure camp. The tail being 500 ft from the main fuselage, after a low altitude crash into shallow water, seems difficult to explain otherwise.

Also in the back of my mind is a memory of an earlier Leonardo helo killing the management team of a major NJ casino by an unexpected rotor failure. It suggests they make Ferrari aircraft, super performing, but with frailties.

[Photonic]

It may be prejudice, but I'm in the mechanical failure camp. The tail being 500 ft from the main fuselage, after a low altitude crash into shallow water, seems difficult to explain otherwise.

I'm not a pilot, but I've hired helicopter pilots for photo shoots and I know that area, and similar places in South Florida and the Caribbean. It may not be that hard to explain the 500 foot distance if that's what it turns out to be. Tidal action can be very strong in shallow water, especially when funneled out of even shallower bays and inlets between islands. A separated tailboom is one of the lighter parts of a helicopter, so I think more information is needed about local tides and currents before assuming it's difficult to explain. The location of the separated main rotor blades, if they've been recovered, might offer some clues.

[sea plane]

Five hundred feet for scattering of aircraft debris (even large parts) is not very far when you consider a hard, uncontrolled impact in the case of spatial disorientation. Water can easily move/shift debris fields. We also have to take into consideration the first-moment scattering of aircraft parts that resulted from the actual, initial impact. Rescue personnel and investigators did not reach the scene until more than 12 hours after the accident. Things move. For all we know the aircraft hit the water and cartwheeled a distance as it broke apart.

I flew that night. It was a moonless night and hard core IMC. (July 2 was the new moon/no moon and this was just the night following). A perfect recipe for disorientation and and an uncontrolled crash into the water.

[gulliBell]

..Anyone that says these pilots were too experienced to have that happen... you need to reassess yourself and realize it can happen to any pilot regardless of time and experience..

Too right. I had an IFR crew in the simulator once, we were practicing low visibility runway departures at night (because the contract they were assigned to had a night standby requirement). Experienced ATP Captain flying. In IMC within a few seconds of initial climb-out. Went inverted and flew it into the runway, co-pilot said and did nothing. And if you think that's scary, we repeated the exercise with exactly the same result, co-pilot said and did nothing a second time. And if you think that's scary, guess what happened at the third attempt. That was in ATT uncoupled mode. And if you think push button coupled mode might be more successful, you need to rethink that as well. Because it 'aint.

[sea plane]

I am based in South Florida and fly moonless nights over open water regularly. I flew that night and it was deep IMC over water with no moon, clear skies. The first thought I had when I heard about this accident is that the pilots suffered disorientation as they transitioned from over land to over open water and they put it in.

It can happen to anyone, even high time, very skilled pilots.

[JimEli]

...
And if you think that's scary, guess what happened at the third attempt.
...


The law of primacy? Poor crew is probably scared to death of low viz night departures...

[sprag47]

It may be prejudice, but I'm in the mechanical failure camp. The tail being 500 ft from the main fuselage, after a low altitude crash into shallow water, seems difficult to explain otherwise.

Also in the back of my mind is a memory of an earlier Leonardo helo killing the management team of a major NJ casino by an unexpected rotor
failure. It suggests they make Ferrari aircraft, super performing, but with frailties.

Why don't we all wait and see where the NTSB pre-lim report says the tailboom was found. It might have been 20 feet from the fuselage or 2000 feet...we don't factually know at this point.

Also, CFIT doesn't preclude spatial
disorientation...in many cases it's the result of it.
"Controlled flight" doesn't necessarily mean desired flight.

[sea plane]

Of course we are all waiting for the NTSB prelim and are all only speculating at this point.

But some are saying that the boom was found 500 feet from the fuselage. I am simply saying a scenario like this does not rule out spatial disorientation that leads to an an uncontrolled crash into the water with a cartwheeling of the aircraft, scattering parts along a distance.

I have personally seen cases of CFIT crashes where the aircraft emerges essentially intact from the water. I have also personally seen cases where spatial orientation lead to a large debris field with scattering of aircraft parts including tail from fuselage.

I know CFIT comes from spatial disorientation but there is a difference in result of a controlled (CFIT implies) vs uncontrolled hit into water as far as the debris field and aftermath.

I am only trying to bring up the fact that all pilots can possibly succumb to spatial disorientation on a moonless night over open water upon departure....whether it be a controlled descent into water or an uncontrolled event.

[gulliBell]

...Poor crew is probably scared to death of low viz night departures...
It's their job. They need to be able to do it. However, cultural aspects provide relief in that scenario where any unfortunate mishap will be the will of...well, the will of you know who. Inshallah.

[sprag47]

Of course we are all waiting for the NTSB prelim and are all only speculating at this point.

But some are saying that the boom was found 500 feet from the fuselage. I am simply saying a scenario like this does not rule out spatial disorientation that leads to an an uncontrolled crash into the water with a cartwheeling of the
aircraft, scattering parts along a distance

I have personally seen cases of CFIT crashes where the aircraft emerges essentially intact from the water. I have also personally seen cases where spatial orientation lead to a large debris field with scattering of aircraft parts including tail from fuse

I know CFIT comes from spatial disorientation but there is a difference in result of a controlled (CFIT implies) vs uncontrolled hit into water as far as the
debris field and aftermath.
I am only trying to bring up the fact that all pilots can possibly succumb to spatial disorientation on a moonless night over open water upon departure....whether it be a controlled descent into water or an uncontrolled event.
I'm in violent agreement with your last paragraph.

[LagMode]

TC,

Earlier you knew what happened

It was CFIT. Pitch black moonless night, takeoff over a black ocean at 2 o'clock in the morning from a remote island, with probably little crew rest...but NO! The tailboom fell off just after they were airborne! Please.....

and now you’re saying we should wait?

Why don't we all wait and see where the NTSB pre-lim report says the tailboom was found. It might have been 20 feet from the fuselage or 2000 feet...we don't factually know at this point.

Also, CFIT doesn't preclude spatial disorientation...in many cases it's the result of it.
"Controlled flight" doesn't necessarily mean desired flight.

Your comment about the relationship between CFIT and disorientation is a valid point. In my mind there are three main categories:

Loss of control due to mechanical failure.
Loss of control (spinning, extreme attitudes, etc.) due to spatial disorientation.
CFIT (straight in, slow spiral, etc.) due to disorientation


The latter two may be precipitated by system or component failures as well as the myriad other factors noted (darkness, crew fatigue, etc.)

The photos show substantial damage to the left side not evident on the right, suggesting that it didn’t plow straight in but with a substantial sideward component. To me this suggests 1 or 2, though perhaps some damage came from a secondary impact.

Ultimately, we’ll just have to wait for the evidence. A horrible tragedy in any case.

[megan]

Because he's correct, and it doesn't have to be night either. Military test pilot in a jet decided to go around on a day approach when a rain shaft obscured the runway, IFR in the rain he suddenly found himself sitting in a wreck in the scrub, confined to a wheelchair there after and very lucky it had not been worse.

[Hot and Hi]

I am utterly surprised, and shocked at the same time, about the level of excuses you career ATP’s have for fellow aviators failing to keep the blue side up (“can happen to anyone ... can happen to the best ... can happen to me”)!

What is the difference between a dark night (“deep IMC”, whoa, what a word) and, say, being in a cloud. The only problem with IMC is if you don’t realize you are in IMC, and continue flying by the seat of your pants.

Why would an IMC departure over water (read “no obstacles”) ever be a problem? Some airspeed, positive climb, attitude, heading. Come on, you got those instruments, not? Plus in an AW you can set the AP, and then focus on your customs declaration.

I do not understand how a plethora of honorable posters before me concede they too could have put her into the drink under similar circumstances.