Any way to verfiy someone was "CAT D" on their upgrade?

[WstCstCmtr]

Probably not... just wondering.

[Arfur Dent]

A few guys have been Cat "D" (unsuitable for Command) but subsequently given a chance (and presumably some decent Training) and passed the Course. Doesn't always work out well.

[Flex88]

Probably not... just wondering.

Sure wait a few years and look for new #Trainers !!!!!

[DropKnee]

Cat D at CX. Now Capt at a major US airline.
As PE told me. US airlines have low standards.
What a ass!!
The challenges I face on a daily basis are far greater than the made up RT issues CX seemed to fret about.
Good luck to
you all. Politics at CX is everything.

[From a distance]

Congratulations and well done DropKnee.
Examples such as yours are evidence of how out of touch, with individual exceptions, the CX training system really is.
Emphasis is on checking rather than training. Talk about a firm grip on the non essential.
Not expecting any improvement with the new pick me, training ban defying individuals going through at the moment.

[ACMS]

Keep telling yourselves that Boys.....”it’s always someone else's fault blah blah....”

[DropKnee]

Keep telling yourselves that Boys.....”it’s always someone else's fault blah blah....”
This is why CX will never fix itself. Thinking like that. Can not possibly be the CX system. It’s the best in the world. It has to be the students fault. Jeez!!

[ACMS]

No, not true. We have problems yes. But most guys fail for a reason when you actually LOOK. There’s always a reason, in most cases the trainee has issues or stuff something up on the line or in the sim.....in some, yes the system lets them down.

Nothing is perfect, I’m not a fan of the star chamber either.

[motley flight crue]

Seems like your management should be Cat D!

[DropKnee]

Seems like your management should be Cat D!
Exactly, they took the best flying job in the world and destroyed it. Most of it because of petty bs.
May those who wish to move on get the opportunity to do so. For those that stay. Best of luck in making positive changes.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

When was the last time you blamed your own incompetence for failure of a trainee? Ever?

No, not true. We have problems yes. But most guys fail for a reason when you actually LOOK. There’s always a reason, in most cases the trainee has issues or stuff something up on the line or in the sim.....in some, yes the system lets them down.

Nothing is perfect, I’m not a fan of the star chamber either.

[SloppyJoe]

I remember a story of a guy who failed his command. Temp increased by one as they were given lineup clearance for a TOGA takeoff. Candidate said as they were already crossing the hold line, lets go. Trainer once convinced the guy would actually takeoff under such "dangerous" circumstances called him out saying how what he was doing was illegal and dangerous. Trainer then assumed control and took off!!!! WTF is that about, dangerous operator or words to that effect were written in the report.

[oriental flyer]

Sloppy joe exactly it’s a story nothing more , I don’t believe a word of it . Some of the checkers may be more pedantic than others but I have always found them to be fair if you do the job that is required of you to an acceptable standard .

the same cannot be said of management who are ready willing and able to slip the knife in at almost any opportunity, classic example was the self reporting system . We aren’t going to take action against those that self report we were assured
Believe that at your peril

[DropKnee]

OP. You should know better than that. There are trainers we all know who never miss the chance to screw a person. Maybe it’s pure bigotry on their parts.
Just know that a system that has had failure rates above %50 at times. Would be investigated by the FAA.
CX is rotting from the inside. Pherhaps it’s just the cycle of life. Companies can’t live for ever.

[mngmt mole]

CX died long ago, the body just isn't completely cold yet.

[Arfur Dent]

Course for Command with an "approved" Senior FO known to the Company for 10-15 years before getting the promotion. How many sectors would that guy/gal need? Maybe 2 or 3 Sims plus about 10 sectors?
Average number of sectors on CX course exceeds 60 FFS! No wonder they have a failure rate higher than normal - they're probably nitpicked into oblivion already!!
Ridiculous.
Ex CX Training Manager went to BA Freighters (GSS) and set the Command course there at 15 sectors if my memory serves.

[slowjet]

Mate of mine reminds me of t he time we both worked for a Company that had no idea what "Training" meant but embraced the "Testing" mentality. They looked at an EX RedArrow, SQ Ldr and Team Manager but failed him for lacking in Leadership. Honestly. He left, joined another but more decent outfit and was in the LHS within six months of joining. For CX in the glory days where,simply to "get in" was a major career success, all FO's were potential Commanders. RHS to LHS should just be a seat swop with tailoring dependent on time spent in the RHS. But the power mad bully-boys would hate that, eh ?

[ACMS]

Yes some guys get screwed over by the system no doubt about it including a good friend of mine, but a lot fail because they weren’t prepared. Sitting in the RHS for 10 years is no guarantee you’ll breeze through the course. You have to actually do something.

End of story.......

[MENELAUS]

Mate of mine reminds me of t he time we both worked for a Company that had no idea what "Training" meant but embraced the "Testing" mentality. They looked at an EX RedArrow, SQ Ldr and Team Manager but failed him for lacking in Leadership. Honestly. He left, joined another but more decent outfit and was in the LHS within six months of joining. For CX in the glory days where,simply to "get in" was a major career success, all FO's were potential Commanders. RHS to LHS should just be a seat swop with tailoring dependent on time spent in the RHS. But the power mad bully-boys would hate that, eh ?


Yes all well and good. The command course, even in those days, was still roughly 60 sectors. So draconian that you just wanted to fail and get a decent nights sleep. During that time you’d peaked twice, and forgotten why you’d started. If the mem sahib was still hanging around added bonus.
Plus ça change.

[oriental flyer]

Strangely though a bunch of people are still passing the course so it is not an impossible achievement . I agree with ACMS sitting in the right seat for 10 years twiddling your thumbs does not prepare you for the command course and a number of guys don’t use that time wisely .It requires a lot of hard work over a long period
There were a few former Red Arrows who joined CX that didn’t make the grade , not because they couldn’t fly but because they could not adapt to a multi crew concept . I was the relief pilot on a training sector with one of these guys , the STC was being totally normal with his input , but the trainee was having none of it , who was this captain to tell him how it should be done ? after all he was part of the Red Arrows and knew everything about aviation .
Was I surprised when he was eventually let go , absolutely not !
is the command course easy , hell no . But if you put in the work and keep your mind on the job you will get through .

[DropKnee]

It is suppose to be a command course. Not a endless command check.
A course consists of a begging and end. The trainee reports on day one and the trainers equip them and guide the to success. Will some fail, of course. But should 50% fail?? Never.
If you consider the process that one must go through to get Cat A. All candidates should be ready. Clearly the screening process is garbage.
What’s the saying, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results means your crazy.

[Oasis]

is the command course easy , hell no . But if you put in the work and keep your mind on the job you will get through .

And also if you can avoid certain trainers/checkers along the way, even better.

[Toruk Macto]

Why would anyone seriously consider cx or ka at the moment ? Having to live in HK , 10 years to command and deal with this training regime all on similar pay to LCC carriers based in much much cheaper parts of Asia plus quick command ? For every 1 captain the Cathay group produce a LCC must be producing 20 ?

[corrigin]

Yes some guys get screwed over by the system no doubt about it including a good friend of mine, but a lot fail because they weren’t prepared. Sitting in the RHS for 10 years is no guarantee you’ll breeze through the course. You have to actually do something.

End of story.......

I agree with ACMS. It's a command course, and the result is a privilege to be in charge of a widebody jet whence the doors are closed. Put in the hard yards now and reap the reward later. The internal politics is unfortunately unavoidable and none of us has control over it. Taking time to study when you could be enjoying a refreshing Pimms and Lemonade will pay off later on.


And also if you can avoid certain trainers/checkers along the way, even better.

That may well be the case for some candidates, however, from my personal experience, I came prepared, and those specific checkers didn't seem to be of bother; in fact, I found them wanting to impart further knowledge. It's all about attitude. Put in the work, never miss the opportunity to keep quiet when you want to say something that may be misconstrued as argumentative and stay focused on your goal.

[Oasis]

That may well be the case for some candidates, however, from my personal experience, I came prepared, and those specific checkers didn't seem to be of bother; in fact, I found them wanting to impart further knowledge. It's all about attitude. Put in the work, never miss the opportunity to keep quiet when you want to say something that may be misconstrued as argumentative and stay focused on your goal.

That all depends on your experience during the course and who you flew with, the point is that sometimes it's the luck of the draw, and it is very much an issue of if you get along with the checker, and less of attitude and how well prepared you are.
Great you never had an experience like this, but that doesn't mean it's not a reality.

[Arfur Dent]

In those halcyon days when I was TRAINING students on the Command course we did about 20 sectors together. I would never write up silly, one off errors that candidates inevitably made - they would be discussed over a beer later. All my guys passed.
ie It behoves the TRAINERS to not be writing damning statements about the student. Attitude should be :-
Right, sunshine - you've passed the course so let's see what I can tell you that will be of help in the early days whilst you develop your own style of Command.
Questions about how the bloody standby electrics work are just annoying and a decent checker should say "I'll ask you something obscure and you can do the same back". That would stop them pretty fast. "How do you carry out overwing refuelling?" - " No idea mate - never had to do it and have never heard of anyone ever doing it down the line" next question…………...

[ACMS]

With a big ladder, high vis vest and a safety line attached. OH and S is alive and well.......

Oh and it’s gunna take a while!!

[cxorcist]

Why would anyone seriously consider cx or ka at the moment ? Having to live in HK , 10 years to command and deal with this training regime all on similar pay to LCC carriers based in much much cheaper parts of Asia plus quick command ? For every 1 captain the Cathay group produce a LCC must be producing 20 ?

10 years time to command at CX? Try 12 years and rocketing northward. It will be above 13 years by the end of this year and still climbing. CX simply isn’t producing many new captains right now. Plenty of training captains though?!?!

[Flex88]

In those halcyon days when I was TRAINING students on the Command course we did about 20 sectors together. I would never write up silly, one off errors that candidates inevitably made - they would be discussed over a beer later. All my guys passed.
ie It behoves the TRAINERS to not be writing damning statements about the student. Attitude should be :-
Right, sunshine - you've passed the course so let's see what I can tell you that will be of help in the early days whilst you develop your own style of Command.
Questions about how the bloody standby electrics work are just annoying and a decent checker should say "I'll ask you something obscure and you can do the same back". That would stop them pretty fast. "How do you carry out overwing refuelling?" - " No idea mate - never had to do it and have never heard of anyone ever doing it down the line" next question…………...

You harking back in the days of a meritocracy.. Those days are dead and Merlin will see to that; it's just to expensive. Now, trainers and checkers are about power; the more they can slam and belittle the better they feel. You know who they are - the last lot just accepted the upgrades... More Power...

[Kitsune]

You harking back in the days of a meritocracy.. Those days are dead and Merlin will see to that; it's just to expensive. Now, trainers and checkers are about power; the more they can slam and belittle the better they feel. You know who they are - the last lot just accepted the upgrades... More Power...
Codswallop. If money was the object it would be 6 sectors and sign here.

[Air Profit]

My buddy is in his 13th year, and still has over 70 FO's ahead of him. That is at least another 2-3 years at current production. Bear in mind that all promotion is now based almost exclusively on retirements/resignations, as the airline has effectively no growth. Said buddy is not concerned, he's leaving to go home with wife and children. BA obtains another great guy at the expense of CX's mindless management follies.

[Slasher1]

Ya gotta hand it to them. CNs get entrenched with their golden handcuffs and extend on inferior contracts while FOs don’t get BPP when that happens. So things stagnate but with a top heavy force who works cheap and new guys who work cheap.

If you have a failure rate above 5 to 10 percent your screening assessment system sucks. And it’s not too hard to switch seats after doing the task for a few years; at least if you’re paying attention and taking the responsibility you should be taking.

To the OP it’s pretty easy. They are the ones working in the left seat of a major US carrier and leading a generally happy life in a happy place.

[Asturias56]

I'm astounded!

the whole place is going to hell in a hand basket , major diplomatic incidents and people on here are worried about seniority............. and pass marks in a CX training system

[Steve the Pirate]

I'm astounded!

the whole place is going to hell in a hand basket , major diplomatic incidents and people on here are worried about seniority............. and pass marks in a CX training system

With respect, just because people comment on a forum such as this, or any forum for that matter, doesn't mean that they ONLY care about the things they comment upon.

STP

[Gordomac]

Well said Steve. Correct. Toxic atmosphere and fearful political events do not stop comments of interest to professional pilots on a public forum. I too "lurk" around Fragrant harbour for interest in many former colleagues , sometimes for my larf of the day but mostly out of interest in airline events given a platform for discussion. That is why, even under the current climate, I offer to Arfur Dent ; Where the hell were TRAINERS like you when I needed...................er, ONE............! Be sure your Studes will have been grateful for value Training as opposed to valueless Trapping. CX always prided itself as a Technical airline but they lost focus and allowed the Bully-boy Trappers to prevail. 60 sectors Command Course ? That is like the old RN "Perishers" course for Submarine Command. Sudden death at any time and certainly, no "training".

Sorry to bring back painful memories but remember the ASL DEC deal ? That too was not really a DEC. It was entrance ,directly to the 60 sectors Command course starting with CX Technical boot-camp before getting anywhere close to anything resembling and aircraft. Two of my mates, FO's in my Company went for the FO deal. Also a nightmare. They resisted my advice not to. Partly because it was very political but I doubted that they would survive even RHS "training", They ignored me. Went. Within a month or so, were reduced to mumbling wrecks trying to figure out how the ASI max speed bar works (amongst other nice to know but quite needless trivia). Dopy questions like that on every sector ?

Soon, discussion like this will be irrelevant to the CX demise but still of value in terms of a general discussion.

Oh, and DROPKNEE : Well done indeed. Don't even look over your shoulder.