10 Sqn Halifax

[davidcarp]

This photo was taken around May/ June 1943 at RAF Melbourne of a 10 Sqn Halifax. My Dad, Ron Carpenter, is back row far right. Not sure of the names of the rest of the aircrew but Dad flew most of his ops with S/L Debenham who was the pilot. I know it's a long shot but does anyone recognise other crew members or ground crew.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1190/dad_back_row_far_right_f0e901d7be7e7f449baf365cd7ead4a3e80b3 798.jpg
10 Sqn RAF Melbourne

[Jhieminga]

Have you asked the 10 squadron association? There are still a few members who might know them.

[davidcarp]

Thanks. I'll try

[davidcarp]

No luck with any names on the photo. I have a photo of Dad which looks like a course photo but didn't know where and when. Dad front row far right. I posted it on the '10 Sqn Halifax and Whitley' Facebook page and a member posted the photo with the details on it. Taken at Chipping Warden 12 OTU around May 1942. Course 28 for B/A, A/G and W/Ops for crewing in before 1st op. A member of the Midland Aircraft Recovery Group sent me the details of the men on Course 28. Really pleased.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1481/course_28_chipping_norton_caee6d7917195aac27ff80af824276c2de c3c2e4.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1242/course_28_chipping_norton_may_1942_1b2dbef91345b74086ed6bc39 eb988dd3b1c8b6a.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1080/course_28_cbe5914b507cb6f5c56a523cdd10828ffe6839b8.png

[David Thompson]

'Melbourne Ten' by Brian J Rapier , published by Air Museum Publications (York) Ltd in 1982 , ISBN 0-9507326-1-3 and rare as hens teeth to put it politely !

Chapter 5 : Hamburg and the Hundred Ops , page 47 has a photo of S/L Debenham and his air and ground crews captioned 'with the much censored X-Ray' . There is a photograph of Halifax BB324/ZA-X on page 49 and in the text it states 'Sergeant Pinkerton flying ZA-X-Ray , BB324 , failed to return from Mulheim , one aircraft cancelled at take off and two returned early from this , a 20 aircraft raid . Squadron Leader Debenham often flew this aircraft and is in the left hand seat of this photogrpaph of BB324 flying on 'one' .'

There may well be other references to S/L Debenham too elsewhere in the book ? I also found that Debenham was awarded the DFC ; Debenham . Archibald Ian Scott . SL . (70167) . RAFVR . 10 Sqn : London Gazette ; 12 November 1943 : 4972 .

[davidcarp]

Dad was sitting next to S/L Debenham when 'Flying on one'. BB324 was on an air test on 1 June 1943. I have some original photos of the air test. In the photo 'X ray blacked out Dad is second from right' I have been in touch with Sgt Pinkerton's nephew who FTR from Mulheim on 22/23 June 1943 in BB324. Dad was the bomb aimer in BB324 the previous evening then his crew were stood down after returning from Krefeld. I have Dad's log book.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1914x1366/1_5af6b64e4fbaf51300efff013e57f3da513816a9.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1124/2_b36ae59e26d0a04202e461dd56adde89d2f6cf0d.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/604x445/3_441c4755665f200291bb289d30dbf02b6d35691b.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/604x450/4_f09b9e3431fd038aa84af165bce2c13743836f71.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/570x278/5_8907d75e118a565c7a23af69e2d7c2dcab89ba06.jpg

[dduxbury310]

Wow! Those are really great photographs, particularly the first big one. I would not have thought that they would have encouraged pilots to fly around on one engine in those days, or any days! And it is one of the early ones with Merlins and the small fins.

David D

[davidcarp]

Here's some more. Dad at the bomb aimers position and last in the queue boarding a Halifax of 10 Sqn.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/570x371/dad_in_bomb_aimers_position_halifax_b_mk_2__99f4238f3aa58a2f cc4e75d7606772a987573dfb.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/604x400/dad_in_bomb_aimers_position_halifax_b_mk2__997d7149239479090 83693dca0d620caecb6f8ab.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/567x376/dad_last_in_line_halifax_b_mk_2_of_10_sqn_f4d521aa1939bd70f9 a71fa16ef0ec1e3a2b1556.jpg

[jm123]

I was wondering if you have any more photos please as I am looking for info about my great uncle, Sgt Derick Soggee. I have hardly any photos of him or either of two planes I know he flew in (ZA-A and ZA-C). Any info or even better photos most appreciated. Died 30th November 1942 in ZA-C.

[davidcarp]

I was wondering if you have any more photos please as I am looking for info about my great uncle, Sgt Derick Soggee. I have hardly any photos of him or either of two planes I know he flew in (ZA-A and ZA-C). Any info or even better photos most appreciated. Died 30th November 1942 in ZA-C.


Unfortunately I haven't any photos but some information on your great uncle. Sgt D Soggee's last operation was on the 20 Nov 1942 in W7671 'C'. On 30 Nov there were no operations but formation exercises and Sgt Soggee was killed with the rest of his crew when their aircraft crashed just after take off.

Regards

David Carpenter

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1080/sgt_soggee_1_6f44eeefa74dd729fea2181cb692ca106019473d.png
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1080/sgt_soggee_2_00ac8c7314fe0fb5fe03c0a21a852bdb138b8d90.png

[Bergerie1]

I understand the early Halifax had directional control problems. At high angles of attack, and with side slip, the whole fin could stall resulting in a rudder hard-over from which it was impossible to recover. Do any readers know more about this problem?

It was cured eventually by fitting square fins and rudders.

[Shackman]

The effect was known as 'rudder reversal', but not necessarily associated with a fin stall.

Look at the hinge line of the rudders on the fin; in extremis it was possible to put in a 'bootful' of pedal which would move the rudder to full deflection. This would then put more airflow on to the forward part of the rudder assembly (ie forward of the hinge line), and effectively 'lock' it in place as the aerodynamic forces were greater than the foot force the pilot could apply through the pedals. This led to an almost instantaneous spiral dive with increasing speed requiring even more pedal force............... This was actually a potential problem with all twin tail heavies hence the redesign of the Halifax tail and the early Manchester/ Lancaster. However rudder design did a lot to mitigate said problem- on the Shack MOTU we were told about it but then told we could ignore it as it wouldn't happen to us (mind you we were told a lot of things couldn't happen to the aircraft which did!).
Of note a relative of my father was killed when his Halifax spiraled in with suspected rudder reversal whilst carrying out radar trials from Defford. Unfortunately there were also a number of radar boffins on board as well.

[David Thompson]

Interestingly three of the crew from W7671 which crashed near Laytham Grange at the edge of the airfield , Brewer , Soggee and Willmott , had all survived another 10 Squadron Halifax mishap in the September when R9383 had got lost returning from Ops on Saarbrucken and the crew abandoned the aircraft whilst over the Yorkshire Dales but sadly the navigator Sgt Hugh McDougall was killed when his parachute failed to open .
Derick Soggee is buried in Barmby Moor Churchyard near the former Pocklington airfield and a photograph of him in India did exist at the following website but now appears to have disappeared although the caption states ;

One of the same uncles (front, right, with ukelele) several years later (http://www.oocities.org/photosofindia2/jillg8.jpg) at an unidentified camp-site and yet another of these numerous uncles seated in the middle (left hand on hat). Standing with arms folded is Derick Soggee, a close friend of the family who died during WW2 (10 Squadron, RAF).

Link here ; Photographs of India : Jill Grey's Collection of Photographs of India (http://www.oocities.org/athens/rhodes/2207/jillgrey.htm) . Hopefully someone can recover the image ?
Good luck with your research .

[David Thompson]

Derick Soggee in India ;
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/450x319/dericksoggeeinindia_f3e3e27559a693c96e0c4c994c10ca19d1f8f203 .jpg
Derick Soggee in India , rear row - third from left .

[washoutt]

I only noticed the interesting photo's of the Halifax single engine testflight today. Intriguing! I would think that with 3 engines out, you would need some aileron and rudder input to keep a straight track. But looking at the photo's, I can't see any aileron nor rudder deflection. Any thoughts on that?

[BSD]

Stunning photos!

As you say Washout, surprisingly little or no Rudder/Aileron in an assymetric condition.

Only suggestion I can come up with for that is; maybe nos 1 (and 2 if running) were at very low power and the aeroplane descending at a relatively high airspeed, i.e. loads of airflow giving effective controls hence little input required and little or no thrust, minimising yaw.

I imagine the photo was staged, but there are recorded instances of uncommanded featherings of Merlins (albeit on Lancasters) happening. One to an ATA pilot (Jeffrey Wikner) but Centaurus, who posts regularly on PPRUNE wrote about such an incident he experienced of it happening on a Lincoln - also Merlin powered.

Still, bet they were happier when they were started up again!

BSD.

[rolling20]

I've always understood that the rudder issue, only became an issue on a 3 engine stall, when it went into an uncontrollable spin.
I remember reading about it years ago somewhere.
So in these pics, providing the aircraft is above the stall, it isn't an issue.
I have never flown a 4 engine piston, but on a light twin, plenty of rudder was needed to keep it straight and level with one engine out.

[rolling20]

Stunning photos!

As you say Washout, surprisingly little or no Rudder/Aileron in an assymetric condition.

Only suggestion I can come up with for that is; maybe nos 1 (and 2 if running) were at very low power and the aeroplane descending at a relatively high airspeed, i.e. loads of airflow giving effective controls hence little input required and little or no thrust, minimising yaw.

I imagine the photo was staged, but there are recorded instances of uncommanded featherings of Merlins (albeit on Lancasters) happening. One to an ATA pilot (Jeffrey Wikner) but Centaurus, who posts regularly on PPRUNE wrote about such an incident he experienced of it happening on a Lincoln - also Merlin powered.

Still, bet they were happier when they were started up again!

BSD.
I believe Guy Gibson had the same issue ,flying some bods from the air ministry on a Lanc demo flight.
They were flying on one, when his FE feathered that one as well, IIRC

[Herod]

They were flying on one, when his FE feathered that one as well, IIRC Sort of solves the rudder problem!! :eek:

[washoutt]

Thanks for the responses. Although my mechanical feeling says, that with asymmetric thrust and consequently aileron input, you cannot have zero rudder input, albeit small with high airspoeed.. But that would not be visible, I imagine.

[Peter Walker]

My dad Sq. Ldr. Norman H Walker was Navigator on this aircraft (you can see him in the navigator's dome standing up. I also have these pictures in my late dad's photo album.



I just happened upon this website when looking for some history to link to.

[KJ994]

A bit of “flying on one” drift. Aged 11 I was taken to the 1958 Battle of Britain Day at Benson. The programme included a flypast by a Lincoln - on four, then three, then two, and then one. I was impressed! A Polish pilot, I recall the commentator saying.

[Herod]

A Polish pilot, Almost certainly Joe Kmiecik. I believe his party-piece on the Lancaster was to fly past on 4, shut down 2 on the same side, perform a steep wing-over (almost a stall-turn), and land off it.

[dduxbury310]

Some (but by no means all) of the comments above seem to be of the opinion that over-locking of rudder was somehow only a problem with aircraft having multiple (more than one) vertical tail surfaces. This is most certainly not true. One type of aircraft that had considerable trouble with this type of design defect was the well-known (well it used to be in the good old days!) Bristol Freighter (model 170), with one in fact being destroyed during a normal flight, having lost its entire fin and rudder (from memory). I think I read this in the Putnam book on Bristol Aircraft, so check that out for confirmation. This accident occurred in late 1940s, or very early 50s, and I have an idea it was an early model, and thus lacked the later modification of an additional amount of fixed fin located forward of main fin, which was typical of all later-built Bristol Freighters.

[goofer3]

This one;
https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/crash-bristol-170-freighter-31-isle-portland-7-killed

[DaveReidUK]

I don't have the AAIB report (EW/C540) for that Freighter accident in my collection, but I believe the wreckage was never recovered and the precise sequence of the break-up wasn't conclusively established.

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

Two things occur to me (sitting comfortably in an armchair of course): (1) If the rudder was hard over and unmovable, would it be possible to kill the power on one side to create asymmetric thrust to at least somewhat counteract the problem and (2) In the first picture, why chose an outboard engine to be the only one running? Wouldn't it have been better to have chosen an inboard engine? (maybe there were necessary services like a hydraulic pump attached to that engine)

Question: what are the things that stick up from the middle of the upper wing surfaces? (the squareish things, not the aileron balance horns)

[megan]

what are the things that stick up from the middle of the upper wing surfacesFuel tank breather.