737 command or long haul FO

[scenicflyer]

Hi all,

I am 24 now and could go for command in Ryanair in about 18 months' time. I have hardly travelled or seen much of the world and kind of feel like I am missing out on life and the experience long haul pilots seem to get; the "catch me if you can" lifestyle, if you will.

On the other hand, trying to get command in a company I know well seems like a safer, more prudent choice. Good money, stability and valuable hours are on the table.

I realise this subject has been approached here a few times but the situation is different for everyone and it would be helpful, I think, to see some arguments for and against - my mind seems to have exhausted all pros and cons.

Thank you.

[anto125]

My concept of "travelling" is a bit different from what you do with your crew in layover honestly.
I`d prefer to plan my trip in my holidays and I`d like to spend time with friends or loved ones instead of my colleagues chatting at the all inclusive bar.
As for the experience, long haul is definetely a different challenge, but considering you`ll be soon offered a command place, I would definitely stay there.
You`re 24 man, you have time to travel and on your own..

[4Screwaircrew]

I always found the advice on this subject fell into two camps;

Always take the command

and

Always take the bigger aeroplane

It's a choice only you can make, whatever you do and wherever you go next you will never see the same roster pattern ever again.

[SaulGoodman]

Go for the best employer in a location that you want to be. You are only 24. You can grow fat in the left seat for years to come.

Somehow I doubt RYR is the best employer. If it was, you would not get your command as rapidly.

I have some friends who forked out the TQ and went for Ryanair. Got abused for years on end and were send from base to base. They either got command fast or went to Emirates and are now in their command training. The ones who went for command in Ryanair either went to China or went to certain European locos without collective labour agreements. By far most of them are complaining.

I went for a company with a long seniority list, CLA, pension scheme, part time option, union. Obviously it is not all rainbows and unicorns over here, and I do not get paid as much as most of them yet. And I am still sitting in the right hand seat for some 5 more years. But at least I can live where I (or actually my wife) wants to live. I can mostly organize my personal life. My kids grow up in Western Europe.

Again, you are only 24. Try to get into a respected carrier. Choose long term.

[BoeingLudo737]

Hi all,

I am 24 now and could go for command in Ryanair in about 18 months' time. I have hardly travelled or seen much of the world and kind of feel like I am missing out on life and the experience long haul pilots seem to get; the "catch me if you can" lifestyle, if you will.

On the other hand, trying to get command in a company I know well seems like a safer, more prudent choice. Good money, stability and valuable hours are on the table.

I realise this subject has been approached here a few times but the situation is different for everyone and it would be helpful, I think, to see some arguments for and against - my mind seems to have exhausted all pros and cons.

Thank you.

I doubt you have come to the right place to ask for advice. As you can see it is full of haters here or people who talk absolutely nonsense like Saul Goodman .
Take your command and use your holidays to go travelling as anto125 said and spend time near your loved ones.

[SaulGoodman]

I doubt you have come to the right place to ask for advice. As you can see it is full of haters here or people who talk absolutely nonsense like Saul Goodman .
Take your command and use your holidays to go travelling as anto125 said and spend time near your loved ones.

hi Ludo,

first of all your link links to another Saul Goodman.

second: what is absolute nonsense? I believe if you are 24 and have 2000+ hours on a 737 you are on pole position to apply for a career airline. Left seat will come in due time. Why stay in RYR when companies with unions/benefits/pension etc are also hiring! They might not be soon enough..

[BoeingLudo737]

hi Ludo,

first of all your link links to another Saul Goodman.

second: what is absolute nonsense? I believe if you are 24 and have 2000+ hours on a 737 you are on pole position to apply for a career airline. Left seat will come in due time. Why stay in RYR when companies with unions/benefits/pension etc are also hiring! They might not be soon enough..

Where have you been for the last 12 months or more? RYR has unions and all the stuff you mentioned so get your facts right before talking nonsense

[scenicflyer]

Really appreciate all the responses so far. Saul, would you consider Qatar a "career airline", as you put it?

Ludo, I am still a contractor ("self employed") and have no protection whatsoever. I have asked to be put onto a real employment contract to no avail. Sure, Ryanair has become much better than, say, 10 years ago, but they still have plenty of nasty tricks up their sleeves. Not saying it's great everywhere else (most certainly not, RYR is a better place to be than many) but there is still vast room for improvement here.

[Banana Joe]

These Ryanair fanboys... They are just like Apple fanboys!

[SaulGoodman]

Ludo, the majority is not on direct employment nor will be any time soon. So I stand by my point.

I would definitely not consider QR a career airline! If that is your longhaul option please consider it carefully. Money is good, 777 is awesome but it is not a place where I would like to live long term. If you consider it, visit it before you resign from RYR. In fact. I would rather work for RYR as a contractor then go to Doha. But everyone is different....

[BoeingLudo737]

These Ryanair fanboys... They are just like Apple fanboys!

what do you mean exactly?

[BoeingLudo737]

Really appreciate all the responses so far. Saul, would you consider Qatar a "career airline", as you put it?

Ludo, I am still a contractor ("self employed") and have no protection whatsoever. I have asked to be put onto a real employment contract to no avail. Sure, Ryanair has become much better than, say, 10 years ago, but they still have plenty of nasty tricks up their sleeves. Not saying it's great everywhere else (most certainly not, RYR is a better place to be than many) but there is still vast room for improvement here.

Where are you based?

[scenicflyer]

England! How come?

[SaulGoodman]

try to get into Virgin...

[Raph737]

Anyone who has worked for a decent employer, will see Ryanair for what they are. Look beside you, do you wanna be stuck in the left seat of a Ryanair aircraft, not really travelling, not connecting with people and feeling miserable about how the company treats you? Great, you can call yourself a captain and you’ll get paid, sure. But I haven’t seen such a negative place to be in my entire working life. You’re 24, I’d take the jump because command will come eventually. Good luck with whatever you decide!

[Banana Joe]

24, with that amount of hours... I wish I was you. I would say never turn down a command offer, but you can move to the left seat in less than 10 years with some heavy experience under the belt and further improve your decision-making skills. Look at options you have available in the long haul segment and if you are thinking of applying to any Middle Eastern operator, do your duly research, visit the place and try to interpret most of the messages you read on PPRuNe.

Virgin Atlantic seems to be one of the best kept secrets in aviation, but at a Wizz Air assessment there was this guy only 3 years away from command on the Boeing fleet and he just hates long haul.

[BoeingLudo737]

Anyone who has worked for a decent employer, will see Ryanair for what they are. Look beside you, do you wanna be stuck in the left seat of a Ryanair aircraft, not really travelling, not connecting with people and feeling miserable about how the company treats you? Great, you can call yourself a captain and you’ll get paid, sure. But I haven’t seen such a negative place to be in my entire working life. You’re 24, I’d take the jump because command will come eventually. Good luck with whatever you decide!

You should leave if you are not happy, I am sure nobody forced you to join Ryanair.

[Raph737]

You should leave if you are not happy, I am sure nobody forced you to join Ryanair.

You are a bit of a fanboy aren’t you? I am leaving, was fortunate enough to get to move to a proper airline very soon! My notice was given and really looking forward to be away from either young , know it all, blind eyed FO’s who think that THIS should be the standard in aviation. Most importantly, captains who absolutely hate the company, its colleagues and had enough of flying. Being on the right hand seat getting abused by people who refused to admit they should have done more to improve their work life, like this chap at 24 is contemplating.
There are CRM issues, there is very little regards towards the cabin crew who are treated appallingly. There is no support or guidance for base transfers and most of the time you're left to your own devices. They offer you nothing where there are plenty of places who at the very least will provide the very basic to do your job...
By all means bring your staplers, food, water, pay for your ID’s, car park, that’s your thing..
You’ll get to see all of those amazing places you travel too for 25mins, and on your days off you’re too tired to do real travelling, as it has been mentioned. Even the staff travel perks, blue tickets you have to pay to select seats...
Sorry excuse of an airline if you want my opinion. But each one to their own. If I was 24 and had those hours, I’d be trying Virgin, 4 days in the beach with a great bunch of people or four sector day with a miserable cheese? No brainer.

[BoeingLudo737]

You are a bit of a fanboy aren’t you? I am leaving, was fortunate enough to get to move to a proper airline very soon! My notice was given and really looking forward to be away from either young , know it all, blind eyed FO’s who think that THIS should be the standard in aviation. Most importantly, captains who absolutely hate the company, its colleagues and had enough of flying. Being on the right hand seat getting abused by people who refused to admit they should have done more to improve their work life, like this chap at 24 is contemplating.
There are CRM issues, there is very little regards towards the cabin crew who are treated appallingly. There is no support or guidance for base transfers and most of the time you're left to your own devices. They offer you nothing where there are plenty of places who at the very least will provide the very basic to do your job...
By all means bring your staplers, food, water, pay for your ID’s, car park, that’s your thing..
You’ll get to see all of those amazing places you travel too for 25mins, and on your days off you’re too tired to do real travelling, as it has been mentioned. Even the staff travel perks, blue tickets you have to pay to select seats...
Sorry excuse of an airline if you want my opinion. But each one to their own. If I was 24 and had those hours, I’d be trying Virgin, 4 days in the beach with a great bunch of people or four sector day with a miserable cheese? No brainer.

You are a moany boy aren't you? I wouldn't even give you a job in McDonald with that attitude. Sorry for the airline who is giving you a job. Moany people never change :ugh:

[Raph737]

You are a moany boy aren't you? I wouldn't even give you a job in McDonald with that attitude. Sorry for the airline who is giving you a job. Moany people never change :ugh:

Attitude? Hahaha yeah absolutely, we all have read your adult response to the initial question, yet one brings “attitude”...va bene!

I wouldn’t apply sir, believe my skills are better suited elsewhere. Who eats that crap anyway? Yes, I have worked for better employers so I have basis for comparison, my prerogative. Now suit yourself.

[Banana Joe]

You should leave if you are not happy, I am sure nobody forced you to join Ryanair.
That's what I meant by 'fanboy'. You're a pain in the arse to deal with and you are being just childish. You've done the same in the Italian forum.

[Pinuz89]

You are a bit of a fanboy aren’t you? I am leaving, was fortunate enough to get to move to a proper airline very soon! My notice was given and really looking forward to be away from either young , know it all, blind eyed FO’s who think that THIS should be the standard in aviation. Most importantly, captains who absolutely hate the company, its colleagues and had enough of flying. Being on the right hand seat getting abused by people who refused to admit they should have done more to improve their work life, like this chap at 24 is contemplating.
There are CRM issues, there is very little regards towards the cabin crew who are treated appallingly. There is no support or guidance for base transfers and most of the time you're left to your own devices. They offer you nothing where there are plenty of places who at the very least will provide the very basic to do your job...
By all means bring your staplers, food, water, pay for your ID’s, car park, that’s your thing..
You’ll get to see all of those amazing places you travel too for 25mins, and on your days off you’re too tired to do real travelling, as it has been mentioned. Even the staff travel perks, blue tickets you have to pay to select seats...
Sorry excuse of an airline if you want my opinion. But each one to their own. If I was 24 and had those hours, I’d be trying Virgin, 4 days in the beach with a great bunch of people or four sector day with a miserable cheese? No brainer.

I can't really talk about the company itself, coz I'm not working there, but I would like to add another point to your thought: 400 Euros for the assessment, without even providing a coffe !
I don't want to go further !

[paul_v1]

I can't really talk about the company itself, coz I'm not working there, but I would like to add another point to your thought: 400 Euros for the assessment, without even providing a coffe !
I don't want to go further !

whats a good alternative then to RYR? Where should someone apply with less than 300 hours TT?
You may pay 400 for the assessment but at least its done fast compared to other companies where it takes months and you can fail and all that was for nothing. Im genuinely interested who else has a scheme like ryr and/or better?

[Pinuz89]

whats a good alternative then to RYR? Where should someone apply with less than 300 hours TT?
You may pay 400 for the assessment but at least its done fast compared to other companies where it takes months and you can fail and all that was for nothing. Im genuinely interested who else has a scheme like ryr and/or better?

For this reason I went there too.
But it's not really the manner to treat potential employees.
And this is the beginning.
But, I repeat, I was there as well, for trying to get a job.

[Pinuz89]

I mean, I'm not dissing guys having a job with RYR or having tried to.
My thought is against the policy

[BoeingLudo737]

That's what I meant by 'fanboy'. You're a pain in the arse to deal with and you are being just childish. You've done the same in the Italian forum.

Ma finiscila dai, stai sempre a scrivere qua, non hai nient'altro da fare Marco?

[Banana Joe]

First of all, you're on the English section so have the good sense of at least writing in English. How I spend my time when off duty is none of your business, and I don't act like a child giving a tantrum when somebody doesn't entirely think Ryanair is god's gift to aviation.

[BoeingLudo737]

What are you talking about? You live in a bubble Marco

[Banana Joe]

I guess I'm sharing the same bubble with a few other guys then:E

[BoeingLudo737]

I guess I'm sharing the same bubble with a few other guys then:E

I'll leave you in your bubble then. Good luck with your amazing job, you might be a captain in 20 years, I will be retired by then :-)

[Banana Joe]

I guess you gave the OP enough food for thought with your last statement then :}

Next time if you want to have a pissing contest, reach out by PM. Always open to a chat.

[Raph737]

I'll leave you in your bubble then. Good luck with your amazing job, you might be a captain in 20 years, I will be retired by then :-)

You are absolutely ridiculous! Delusions of grandeur much? In 20 years you’ll be secretly getting therapy, much needed.
You are exactly the type of guy we need a deep sigh of encouragement in order to get through the day, when we see your name in the briefing sheet. See yourself out buddy!

[scenicflyer]

Thank you all, I have plenty of food for thought now.

[tomuchwork]

Go for the best employer in a location that you want to be. You are only 24. You can grow fat in the left seat for years to come.

Somehow I doubt RYR is the best employer. If it was, you would not get your command as rapidly.

I have some friends who forked out the TQ and went for Ryanair. Got abused for years on end and were send from base to base. They either got command fast or went to Emirates and are now in their command training. The ones who went for command in Ryanair either went to China or went to certain European locos without collective labour agreements. By far most of them are complaining.

I went for a company with a long seniority list, CLA, pension scheme, part time option, union. Obviously it is not all rainbows and unicorns over here, and I do not get paid as much as most of them yet. And I am still sitting in the right hand seat for some 5 more years. But at least I can live where I (or actually my wife) wants to live. I can mostly organize my personal life. My kids grow up in Western Europe.

Again, you are only 24. Try to get into a respected carrier. Choose long term.



















Well. I am a RYR skipper as well. However, worked for many airlines before, some of them great(and dead now), some other not so much. Far from being 24. In the old days we used to fly a 23 year old FO was something mentionable.Then it moved to 21 and they where considered kids, then 19.... Now we are in the age of kid captains, well, as long as the insurers join the game it seems to be smooth for the airlines. Saves a lot of money. My 10 cents about NG flying.

RYR is in fact, for SOME of us, the BEST option that not many other airlines, even most of the european "legacies", just cannot beat. What do I mean? I joined with a particular base in mind(and if the close it/transfer me I am out of here), only wanted a DEC job with an employment contract(no agency BS). Got both. Happy. Always see my kids, wife, every day. Sleep in my bed nearly every day(exception the sim if it is a 2 session gig). After 25 years of NOT having that - fantastic. Have done this longhaul, widebody skipper crap, not worth it(IMHO, of course, as always). Same short range jobs with "established" carriers, meaning you start day 1 at your homebase(or deadhead), fly, hotel, fly again, hotel, fly, usually another hotel, fly, home. Normally not more then 2 days off and it starts over again.
Prefer to do that for 5 days in a row, hopefully with at least 1 Stby, 4 OFF. REALLY? That is bad in your eyes?
IF you manage(and you did your homework before) to ask for the right country you end up with a decent salary in RYR. I got my country, base. Happy. Simple as that.

You live with that what they throw at you, say nicely yes, tick your box at crewdock and go on with your nice life.

Do you seriously think life in EK or in China(Xiamen is the place where most RYR guys went off to, check how many are really happy over there) is better? In Europe you can always call a lawyer, unions(lol), a court to try to fight for your rights. Try that with the Middle East or China(or India, Korea, even in Japan it is a hell of a job to organize that for, lets say, an European).

There is this boy, 24, soon having a chance to get an upgrade on one of the most used single aisle aircraft in this horrible world. Of course you go for it. And get some bloody command experience, at LEAST 2000 hours. If you add a few k more you may even get a direct entry command on a widebody. After all it does not make really a difference how big the plane is after the cockpit if you know what you are doing. And again, I used to be a widebody skipper.

Now - RYR has unions (what they are worth it, but this counts as well for any other european airline), CLA, some seniority lists implemented so they cannot ship you off your base/country if you have been around for a while(and a while in RYR is not really that long). Means after a few years you are fine. Why the hell would you change that? I know some (irish) guys went to "Shamrock" for instance, others to HOP(because this is the only way into AF it seems for french, no idea), others for Dolomiti(LH, same as AF)). But this means, IF you are a captain, back to square 1. And for what exactly? For some feeder airline with no realistic chance to join the mainline? Same goes for Shamrock.
If you plan to do so it would be wise to do that really young(because any older does not make really any financial sense) - still - you have worse rosters and equal pay at best. AND a really long cue ahead of you for upgrading. Cool advice. Leave the winning team(and let's be honest, if we like it or not, RYR IS the winning team as long as the European Union is not doing something against their working practice - they did never till now, see Italy for instance. Put their tail between their rear legs and ran whimping off till now) and join average airlines with no real remarkable perks.

We need to stay realistic here.

Just for the fun of it - let's "explore" the other option - going longhaul as a 24 year old FO. I could not really find a hint if it would be the ME(most likely) or some classic carrier here in Europe(3 sorts then, classic Mainline, meaning you are close to 40 till command, or classic charter, usually all of them having some sort of "mafia" style upgrade policy wih no real seniority, upgrades usually always just a promise but you do not know when that ever happens, especially it really depends on fleet growth OR loco Longhaul, lets say a 787(^^) - only one of them around, and we all know how they are doing at the moment).
We have seen how many airlines folded over the last 18 months here in Europe, some are still fighting to get up on their feet again.

EK/QR - they do with you what they want. You always thought RYR is threating you like you are their bitch? Try the ME and get some first hand impressions about proper labour laws. Again - have been there, know what I am talking about.

Or there are some cargo operators, 777(german speaking required) or 747(horrible chain rosters with not enough pilots). OR you can have a 5/4.

I am not a "fan" of RYR, but I only would leave them on my terms and not on others. And to be blunt honest, not so many good airlines are remaining on this planet that I would know which of them would be really worth the hassle of another change. Most of them are bad as well, and just for the nicer threatment I just do not change company anymore.

[captain.weird]

One of the best replies here on PPRune. As of myself, in the same boat as the topic starter but with another loco on the 737, rosters (6 on 1 off 4-5 on and then 2/3 off) in the summer and a 787 offer from the ME, I am also weighing my options as my command is coming up. Really hard decisions to make.

[alvocaviat]

brilliant reply!!!

[flyfan]

Describes it perfect.
Pretty new FO here (~900h), got a base 2,5h by car from my home (closest possible base for me), nice people there, 5/4 roster, no layovers, no night flying, and hours on 737 - can't really beat that.
Have to bring your own water and food? OMG...how am I gonna live with that. I have nothing against bringing my own food as I can decide what to bring with me this way. Water/Coffee...fine, would be nice if it was free.
Pay for the hotel during the RSTs? Yep, company should pay that - and in a strange way they kind of do it, just like renewing the IDs, and uniform. Check the parts of your payslip guys...

It's always easy to complain, but please also have a look around: Many airlines went into bankruptcy the last few years. Ryanair ist growing & we're having a safe job - and isn't that important too?

Not saying everything is perfect here, and there are in fact things Ryr should change - but many people here just exaggerate a tiny little bit.

[richardthethird]

There is getting a command, and then getting a Ryanair command. One they give away, the other they don't. Best of luck!!

[scenicflyer]

richardthethird that's a load of BS, the training in Ryr is second to none and I've flown with older guys who had command at BA, Emirates, Qatar, etc and they are no better (in some cases actually worse IMHO) than the young Ryanair-produced captains.

[PorridgeStirrer]

For some feeder airline with no realistic chance to join the mainline? Same goes for Shamrock.

Bonkers comment.

[anto125]

I think tomuchwork (https://www.pprune.org/members/132437-tomuchwork) really explained it well.
We could talk about this topic for decades but we need to be aware that there is no right or wrong answer to this topic, only you know what would make you happy.
I've worked with captains doing hardcore charter long hauls for ages and still enjoying it, others burning out after a few months, others flying in ME/ASIA and being happy about it, others looking for a rope. Long haul and short haul are two completely different jobs, without considering contract terms and the financial aspect that I have no competence to talk about.
To a personal question there is a personal answer, related to what you want from your life (there are also other things than flying).
Then from here and from your direct experience/friends/impressions after visiting the ME or whatever, you can set your conclusions.

[scenicflyer]

Thanks Anto. Where I am at the moment, I have zero life! I literally live to work. So I think I may as well go LH and actually see something while at work. A lot of people complain about never getting days off or working long weeks, but I genuinely want to be at work. I know it's sad but hey ho. Cheers for that reply.

[P06T]

Bonkers comment.

I second this.

[J74]

Hello,
just to say that you’ve got few good reply, and here my suggestion along with my point of view.
In my opinion You still too young and you’re curiousity Is far beyond to stay where you are.
Long haul is not easy and depends of the type of Operator...long duties, if Cargo, no cabin crews, sometimes minimum rest, and you will fly from East to West , from Cold to Hot and so on...but in the same time you’ll be able to satisfy your curiousity as long haul flight are completely different from medium haul and you will learn a lot, much more notion and different procedures and a Heavy aircarft. Time for the upgrade depends on the operator, and the hours of longhaul and heavy you got under your belt.
Once you get upgraded be sure you will never go back.
On the other side you have un Upgrade which is always good but if i understood you re not completely satisfied. Then remember an important point, now you’ve got your age from your side later on if you decide to leave after the upgrade you may be stucked there and if you still want to tey the longhaul you’ll have to take again the righ seat with much more white hair.
Think carefully and no matter the money or the left/right seat...do what you feel and like, only in this way you’ll be able to go flying satisfied with an interior peace.
if you ask me, I will go for it( Long haul and Heavy)😉

[richardthethird]

richardthethird that's a load of BS, the training in Ryr is second to none and I've flown with older guys who had command at BA, Emirates, Qatar, etc and they are no better (in some cases actually worse IMHO) than the young Ryanair-produced captains.


Hahahahaha... Brilliant. Thanks.