UAL 757 incident at EWR

[Zeffy]

Deplaned via stairs.


https://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny-untied-airlines-passenger-jet-skids-off-runway-newark-airport-20190615-mc7j5fij4bd5pgr6o564mzcogi-story.html

NEW YORK DAILY NEWS |
JUN 15, 2019 | 2:10 PM

United Airlines passenger jet skids off runway at Newark airport

A United Airlines passenger jet skidded off a runway at Newark Liberty International Airport on Saturday, shutting down service for the New Jersey transportation hub, officials said.

There was no immediate word of any injuries.

Port Authority Police Department cops and Emergency Service Unit teams were sent to the airport following reports that the plane had veered off the runway at about 1:30 p.m. Port Authority did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The airport was immediately shut down. “Due to an airport emergency there are currently no arrivals nor departures from Newark Airport,” Newark Liberty tweeted. “Please check with your carrier before coming to the airport.”

A photo of the scene shared with The News shows the airplane stopped at an angle on the runway with its nose over a grassy median.

Early reports said the plane may have blown a tire when it landed, causing it to veer off the runway.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x497/obcbivlkfjb57b5m2uknudebri_56c16a608bacacd7f6649b458a6320544 f8c5d40.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x404/l6v3ez2y7ngdjeodfh3mlvon74_d87abe28ec39062658ddeae785163de64 aa61f46.jpg

[Zeffy]

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20190615-0



https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1026x1006/screen_shot_2019_06_15_at_3_34_12_pm_ef20cdb2d488bea896b96e9 652d893ad19472438.png

[Winkopp]

The mains may be flat, but there appears to be nose section damage. Hard landing, porpoise?

[Zeffy]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/d9h_igpxsaacrgi_12a68d7f3f960864c91482aa5a72101c3b7f9954.jpg
https://twitter.com/Louisa_Hodge/status/1139972704319221760

[diffident]

The area of fuselage around the front gear does not look healthy at all.

[San Diego kid]

Not off runway, but hard (extreme hard by the look of the nose gear) landing looking at the pics.Flat tires and bend fuselage around nose gear.

[Zeffy]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/714x952/d9humryw4aetg_g_624d0d3ca329e49d173b92450bbeffedee76f3c1.jpg
https://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status/1139954080250511361

[finfly1]

Aircraft damage in report described as "substantial". I wonder if that word means what they think it means.
And perhaps some learned person can explain why the entire airport needs to be closed because of one blocked runway.

[diffident]

Aircraft damage in report described as "substantial". I wonder if that word means what they think it means.
And perhaps some learned person can explain why the entire airport needs to be closed because of one blocked runway.

I would hazard a guess at it being because there is now a lack of emergency services cover owing to the attendance at this incident.

[Spacepope]

Aircraft damage in report described as "substantial". I wonder if that word means what they think it means.
And perhaps some learned person can explain why the entire airport needs to be closed because of one blocked runway.

Since the emergency crew bit has already been addressed...

Substantial in this case means this aircraft isn't going anywhere anytime soon without some major major work.

Based off the latest SDR for this frame, it should have 80,000 hour and 22,000 cycles by now. There is a very non-zero chance the damage is terminal.

[finfly1]

Thank you both. Appreciate it.

[Smythe]

"experienced abnormal runway contact"...

pax said it bounced 3 to 4 times.....damn...

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x900/d9iafz7wkaaxxf8_1356a4c20fb34dd3b6f8b5ead7966a1d12ba8209.jpg

[diffident]

"experienced abnormal runway contact"...

pax said it bounced 3 to 4 times.....damn...

The NTSB has instructed that the aircraft in the earlier incident not be moved until investigators arrive.

I would suggest that's a pretty normal request from the NTSB in an incident where there has been what appears to be significant structural damage. Obviously, something rather dramatic has gone on at the very end of that flight.

As mentioned above, and of course there are only the photo's to go on, but that looks terminal for the airframe.

[Smythe]

sorry, removed that comment somehow when I added the image....

[eckhard]

As mentioned above, and of course there are only the photo's to go on, but that looks terminal for the airframe.

Considering the age of the airframe, I would agree although Air Europe suffered similar damage to one of its 757s at Madeira and it was repaired by Boeing in about 6 weeks and returned to service. I saw it there a few days after the incident and the damage looked just like this recent one. That was in about 1989?

[Smythe]

rear tires flat, front landing gear impaled, reverse thrust still active...that must have been quite the landing....

In related news, United adds another aircraft to their A321XLR order at the Paris airshow..... :}

[Zeffy]

Apparently lifting and setting onto dollies?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/d9jccygwwaajlcx_24fbb09bf2c2d07b3f5e241a0a752fa06a428e81.jpg
https://twitter.com/ZachHonig/status/1140047438339817472

[ironbutt57]

junkyard, some beancounter at United happy about collecting the insurance another bean counter at the insurer checking to see what they will recover if they subrogate the claim and name the pilots...

[quietfrog]

Beginnings of the pilot shortage are starting to manifest themselves...

[Blade Master]

How can the Russians have multiple clear videos of their one important recent landing and we have nothing?

[Matt48]

rear tires flat, front landing gear impaled, reverse thrust still active...that must have been quite the landing....

In related news, United adds another aircraft to their A321XLR order at the Paris airshow..... :}

Quite the landing ? I think they may have ' arrived '.

[Fly Aiprt]

According to meteo reports, the wind was 210/220 13/24 kt, direct headwind.

KEWR 151651Z 21016G24KT 10SM FEW140 SCT180 BKN250 27/09 A3005 RMK AO2 PK WND 20026/1553 SLP177 T02670094
KEWR 151658Z 22013G24KT 10SM FEW130 SCT180 BKN250 27/09 A3005 RMK AO2 T02720089

[bafanguy]

Anyone interested in waiting until the investigation is complete and facts are in ?

[ZeBedie]

I seem to remember Air Europe doing something similar at Funchal? I think it was said that the step down into the flight deck was changed to a step up!

It seems that while the 757 is very easy to de-rotate too quickly, giving a hard nose gear landing, it's not built to take those impacts. My recollection is that if you don't fly the nose gear onto the runway before the autobrake bites, you'll run out of elevator authority and can't prevent the nose slamming in?

[MENELAUS]

I seem to remember Air Europe doing something similar at Funchal? I think it was said that the step down into the flight deck was changed to a step up!

It seems that while the 757 is very easy to de-rotate too quickly, giving a hard nose gear landing, it's not built to take those impacts. My recollection is that if you don't fly the nose gear onto the runway before the autobrake bites, you'll run out of elevator authority and can't prevent the nose slamming in?
Well I’ve only got 4000 hrs on them and you’re talking a fair bit of bollocks there. It’s certainly no harder to de rotate than any other Boeing and certainly easier than certain airbus products. The Air Europe incident was a nose wheel first job in to a notoriously difficult field plagued by wind shear with different winds very often at both ends, where even the local carrier ( presumably fairly exposed to the place ) have pranged a few.
Carrying speed well in excess of Vref greatly enhances the chance of a nose wheel first or shallow touchdown and this looks a classic case of that. As someone said perhaps wait for the actual accident report.

[Fly Aiprt]

Carrying speed well in excess of Vref greatly enhances the chance of a nose wheel first or shallow touchdown and this looks a classic case of that. As someone said perhaps wait for the actual accident report.
Not sure to concur.
Why should people wait for the report in this particular case, while they don't when the accident occurs in another continent with foreing pilots ?
We already do have some facts here : the wind, the state of the airplane.
What we are still to read about, is the usual rigmarole of "should haves", "forgot flying basics", "substandard training", etc.

[DaveReidUK]

it's not built to take those impacts.

Are you suggesting that some other aircraft are capable of withstanding a similar impact without suffering structural deformation? What type(s) do you have in mind?

[ironbutt57]

any compression type buckling on top of the fuselage?

[The Mad Russian]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britannia_Airways_Flight_226A Here, nose wheel 'dog box' failed due over load, resulting in a significant runway excursion.


Final report https://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/88971AA3-A440-4E12-A167-63114D2D1DCB/2433/1999_054_A_texto_ENG.pdf

Britannia was generally regarded as having 'high standards' within the industry at the time, a long established operator. However deep night flying (a Britannia Airways 'speciality' since inclusive tour charter flying really got going of the 70s) crew fatigue thought a possible contributing factor in this particular 1999 Boeing 757 accident.

[MENELAUS]

Are you suggesting that some other aircraft are capable of withstanding a similar impact without suffering structural deformation? What type(s) do you have in mind?

I can’t think of any. Not even anything built by Andrei Tupolev. Or
Illyushin.

As as an aside I took a 757 in to Funchal shortly after the Air Europe incident ( our airline stopped 757 operations in to there shortly thereafter). I wandered over to see how the Boeing field engineers ( lots of pens in shirt pockets, crew cuts, and, I suspect, had cut their teeth in ‘Nam) , were fixing it. Jacked up the aircraft by using a pit prop through the dv windows. Drifted the nose gear down and welded it down. Then welded the now deformed window back in to the frame and then an AE crew flew it back gear down ( think they retracted the mains not sure ) to Luton. Built like a brick ****house. As all things Boeing were back in the day.
However there are obviously limits. !! 😎😎😎

[Smythe]

Noticing from the images, the starboard thrust reverser is still deployed, but the port is not.

[blue up]

With regards to the post above, the Britannia incident pushed the dog box up just far enough to snag the thrust lever and reverser cables, but not symmetrically. Looks the same here.

I was, uh, rather close to that particular incident.

[JLSF]

The damaged 757 (I was inside it during the repairs, done by Boeing - Mr Hammer)
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/840x596/757ae_2__6e9c99fa1fb533a76441d9ccca8d0986dc9c8d48.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/792x606/757ae_1__ca1952f3926460ba343b7c53519c34f3d1adbe2c.jpg

[tdracer]

With regards to the post above, the Britannia incident pushed the dog box up just far enough to snag the thrust lever and reverser cables, but not symmetrically. Looks the same here.

I was, uh, rather close to that particular incident.

Not quite - there are not 'reverse cables' as such on the 757 - on the 757-200/RB211-535, the throttle cable actuates the reverser Directional Control Valve when it's moved sufficiently aft of forward idle. When the nose gear came back through the EE bay, it snagged the throttle cables in such a way that the engines went to high forward thrust - in that condition it is not possible to deploy the reversers. The combination of high thrust and inability to deploy the reversers made for a rather long overrun.
While the design of using the throttle cables to actuate the reverse DCV was common place back then, it has some highly undesirable failure modes. The 757-300/Rolls didn't use that design (I was directly involved in the design change, including having to debate the Chief Engineer who didn't want to make the change).

In the aftermath, Boeing designed a 'guillotine' system - if the nose wheel came back as it did in Britannia, the guillotine was intended to cut the throttle cables in such a way that the engines would go to idle. I think the guillotine was AD'ed but I wouldn't swear to it.

[Zeffy]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/d9mkktlxyaaatto_0ac0d9b2217e6dcc75fde0addddedeb8d3c28d88.jpg
https://twitter.com/AielloTV/status/1140294893379772416

[bill fly]

Not quite - there are not 'reverse cables' as such on the 757 - on the 757-200/RB211-535, the throttle cable actuates the reverser Directional Control Valve when it's moved sufficiently aft of forward idle. When the nose gear came back through the EE bay, it snagged the throttle cables in such a way that the engines went to high forward thrust - in that condition it is not possible to deploy the reversers. The combination of high thrust and inability to deploy the reversers made for a rather long overrun.
While the design of using the throttle cables to actuate the reverse DCV was common place back then, it has some highly undesirable failure modes. The 757-300/Rolls didn't use that design (I was directly involved in the design change, including having to debate the Chief Engineer who didn't want to make the change).

In the aftermath, Boeing designed a 'guillotine' system - if the nose wheel came back as it did in Britannia, the guillotine was intended to cut the throttle cables in such a way that the engines would go to idle. I think the guillotine was AD'ed but I wouldn't swear to it.

That could have been a double edged sword (sorry...) TD if some poor wight had attempted a go around after initial impact...

[capngrog]

Anyone interested in waiting until the investigation is complete and facts are in ?

No. What would be the fun in that?

Cheers,
Grog

[Check Airman]

That could have been a double edged sword (sorry...) TD if some poor wight had attempted a go around after initial impact...

That was my first thought as well. Hopefully with electronically controlled engines, that failure mode is less of an issue. On to different, newer failures then...

[Smythe]

Originally Posted by bafanguy https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/622539-ual-757-incident-ewr-2.html#post10494935)
Anyone interested in waiting until the investigation is complete and facts are in ?
No. What would be the fun in that?

Cheers,
Grog

I dont see many posts on how it happened, just the results of what happened. They landed hard enough to explode all of the rear landing gear tires and push the nose gear up through the fuselage. No conjecture, it is there in the images.

[tdracer]

That could have been a double edged sword (sorry...) TD if some poor wight had attempted a go around after initial impact...

If you pushed the nose gear far enough into the EE bay to activate the guillotine, attempting a go-around would be a pretty bad decision regardless - the flight control cables go through that same area as the throttle cables (not to mention much of the electronics).

[DaveReidUK]

They landed hard enough to explode all of the rear landing gear tires

Burst, but not "exploded", and clearly not all of them, judging by the photos and passenger accounts.

[Paul Lupp]

Out of interest, what happens to the checked baggage when an incident like this occurs?
Is it removed promptly or left in place until after initial visual observations, photos etc have been taken by those investigating what happened?

[160to4DME]

Monarch did a similar at GIB

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422fc29e5274a1314000837/dft_avsafety_pdf_507740.pdf


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/567x451/screenshot_2019_06_17_at_09_26_58_a05f007cc911764e4b3a263353 9a70f4e02dc014.png

[groundbum]

Out of interest, what happens to the checked baggage when an incident like this occurs?
Is it removed promptly or left in place until after initial visual observations, photos etc have been taken by those investigating what happened?

at least I'd have thought the accident investigators would want to weigh the bags and cargo in each bay to check there were no CoG/overloading issues.. plus check for hazardous cargo declared or otherwise.. You'd hope animals would be flagged up and removed PDQ..

G

[yoko1]

I dont see many posts on how it happened, just the results of what happened. They landed hard enough to explode all of the rear landing gear tires and push the nose gear up through the fuselage. No conjecture, it is there in the images.

I'm sure the preliminary will be out soon enough. There were some unconfirmed passenger reports of a bounced landing, and we all know how those can be mishandled. There was also a report that the engines being driven to a high power setting by the damage, so I may be that the brake energy limits were exceeded in trying to stop the aircraft. It is quite possible that the main gear tires deflated because the thermal plugs gave way after the plane was stopped.

[Cough]

Noticing from the images, the starboard thrust reverser is still deployed, but the port is not.

With regards to the post above, the Britannia incident pushed the dog box up just far enough to snag the thrust lever and reverser cables, but not symmetrically. Looks the same here.

Curious - Could a hydraulic leak caused by the deformation around the nose landing gear cause a similar outcome?

[kit500]

Clear day, wind straight down the longest runway at EWR and they trash the airplane. Sure, wait for the investigation results, but if you are on a stabilized approach anywhere near on speed - how do you bounce the aircraft back into the air, porpoise and crunch the nose gear? They can spin it anyway the want - with the blown tires, etc. but this is the kind of stuff you teach Cherokee pilots not to do.

[787PIC]

United was getting ready to scrap the 57’s!
These fellas made it easy for them!😎
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x480/d9mkktlxyaaatto_0ac0d9b2217e6dcc75fde0addddedeb8d3c28d88.jpg
https://twitter.com/AielloTV/status/1140294893379772416[/QNi​​​​​​

[yoko1]

Noticing from the images, the starboard thrust reverser is still deployed, but the port is not.

It appears the damaged nose gear was cocked left. It could be that they were using asymmetrical reverse thrust and braking to counter an uncommanded leftward turn toward the runway edge.

[Meester proach]

That’s bad news. Hopefully it won’t be career limiting for the pilots.
I’ve always found derotation rates rather hard to predict on Boeing’s - sometimes the nosewheel squeaks on, sometimes, despite my best efforts , it clatters on.

I was always worried at Gatwick about a flat landing due to that poxy great car park just before 26L. In the summer the thermals off it meant you were often 0 pitch or negative slightly just to stay on the PAPIs, and then lost it all of a sudden as you came out of the effect. I had to recite a mantra to me and my colleagues “ we can’t land in this attitude “.