KLM and Delft University to Create New Flying V Airplane with Passengers in Wings

[PastTense]

This two-pronged innovative flight concept coined the ‘flying-V’ embraces an entirely different approach to aircraft design (https://www.designboom.com/tag/airplane-design/), and anticipates a future for sustainable long-distance flight. dutch airliner KLM will be contributing towards the research of the aerospace engineering team at delft university of technology (TU delft) to make this highly energy-efficient long-distance airplane a reality. its aerodynamic shape and reduced weight will allow it to use 20% less fuel than today’s most advanced aircraft — the airbus A350. furthermore, the spectacular, V-shaped design — which takes its name from the gibson guitar model (https://www.gibson.com/Guitars/Flying-V) — will accommodate the passenger cabin, the cargo hold and the fuel tanks within its wings.
https://www.designboom.com/technology/flying-v-airplane-klm-tu-delft-06-03-2019/

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/818x548/flying_v_airplane_tu_delft_klm_designboom_07_e1559582717240_ a22e3c53d38830602f0b864b7010906326c5cca1.jpg

[n5296s]

I wonder what's in this for KLM and why they would attach their name to it?

As a fantasy design, sure, why not. But the little design feature that the centre of lift is way behind the centre of gravity could be a bit of practical problem.

[Loose rivets]

Hmm . . . those white spots on the centre cabin roof - Tear along the dotted line?

So we sit next to the fuel? Oh, and better have a very advanced MCAS to stop the engine airflow from being too curly. "And whatever you do Hoskins, don't round out."

[Smythe]

Similar to the Airbus Flying donut patent:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x393/airbus_wide_e743dd0bb965f8f467b7c5a9dd636e77080cc1f6_s700_c8 5_f973b01dadc1eb1934f318dd69d51d2e5a4a26fc.jpg
Made for those circular runways...

[FrequentSLF]

Hmm . . . those white spots on the centre cabin roof - Tear along the dotted line?

So we sit next to the fuel? Oh, and better have a very advanced MCAS to stop the engine airflow from being too curly. "And whatever do do Hoskins, don't round out."
everytime you are in a car you sit next to the fuel better or on top of it

[Vilters]

You might get a nasty surprise when you calculate the drag of such a "thing".
I'd like to see the airflow over such a leading edge and study the vortices that it leaves behind. => Airflow going outboard spanwise!
That's no airplane but some clown's wet dream.

[Loose rivets]

everytime you are in a car you sit next to the fuel better or on top of it

Yes, but I'm near a heavy steel tank with say, 10 gallons in it. A hundred tonnes of fuel next to me? Nah.

Just what surface is giving the lift? Whatever it is, it'll have to counter the AND effect of the thrust.

If I could get a job as consultant for the company, I'd write a report consisting of just one word: Daft.

[OldnGrounded]

Just what surface is giving the lift? Whatever it is, it'll have to counter the AND effect of the thrust.

And the AND effect of the way-forward CG. And it would be interesting to see the lift vs. drag numbers for the forward sections of what are presumably considered airfoils.

I notice that there is no aircraft manufacturer associated with this "sustainable design." Perhaps KLM is just looking for good PR by sponsoring student engineering projects at a local university.

[megan]

Just chopped a "V" from the back of the Boeing


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/650x432/797_hoax_2_f0e156073cf658ab0259b08303ebea3f6a537a6d.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/494x323/797_hoax_5_2c82a7bd2a3eccac20e6da18159274c438ebeee4.jpg

[Pilot DAR]

I wonder how that leading edge is to be deiced. And, I suppose, like the first few cabin windows of the 747, every one of those cabin windows would have to be able to withstand a bird strike. Both surmountable, I suppose....

But, if there's fire outside on one side during the emergency evacuation, getting everyone out on the other side in 90 seconds could be a challenge, it looks like a long walk from the back of one side to the exit on the other side!

[OldnGrounded]

I wonder how that leading edge is to be deiced.

Really (really!) big boots with lots of neat little window openings?

[pattern_is_full]

Bottom line - KLM gets green PR and likely some tax write-off for the suport, the profs get to publish and not perish, and some students get class credit for the cool promotional CGI work.

Judging the design from the imagery (since we have zero facts about the actual intended engineering and aerodynamics), I would propose that this be viewed more as a lifting body fuselage concept, with blended stub wings outboard the engines for additional (and flexible, slatted/flapped, aileroned) lift. As in the Cranfield U./Boeing X-48 concept Megan shows us :ok: . Minus the "theater" seating, which is what put the customer kibosh on Cranfield's concept as an airliner, although it's still being developed for UAV, tanker or cargo use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-48

In which case the center of body lift may be much further forward than obvious, and the high engines and ND thrust may actually be a plus. (As well as protecting the engines from FOD). Not sure that leading edge icing would be as significant an issue as with a regular airfoil, either. Except on the stub wings.

[Safe-T]

Bottom line - KLM gets green PR and likely some tax write-off for the suport, the profs get to publish and not perish, and some students get class credit for the cool promotional CGI work.
Well said, pattern_is_full . Purely green window dressing for KLM and not one media outlet will ask some serious questions. The development and certification challenges for such a design will me enormous and in the current state of the industry I doubt if there is one manufacturer that is willing to spend millions and millions of €/$ on such an endeavour.

[DaveReidUK]

Pick a member at random from, say, the A350 design team and there's a good chance that he/she will have come up with something equally unconventional during their university days. That's what students do. It's how they learn.

The Flying V wins the Young Researcher Competition of the Royal Aeronautical Society (https://www.jbenad.com/news/2015/10/23/the-flying-v-wins-the-young-researcher-competition-of-the-royal-aeronautical-society)

[Gove N.T.]

What a load of old knockers, naysayers and cynics so far, pretty sad imho.
its a student exercise in engineering and, strangely enough, some students are pretty bright. Why have windows at all on an aircraft when other visual means exist and are used daily. Structural integrity surely and reduced manufacturing costs?

[Gove N.T.]

Pick a member at random from, say, the A350 design team and there's a good chance that he/she will have come up with something equally unconventional during their university days. That's what students do. It's how they learn.

The Flying V wins the Young Researcher Competition of the Royal Aeronautical Society (https://www.jbenad.com/news/2015/10/23/the-flying-v-wins-the-young-researcher-competition-of-the-royal-aeronautical-society)
you beat me to it so I don’t include you in the knockers!!

[ATC Watcher]

Probably made by the same guy that made the circular runway project ( same NLR bureau)
Why have windows at all on an aircraft when other visual means exist and are used daily.
I was told long ago that it was also for crew to see which side in in flames before opening doors and emergency exits on pax planes. you do not need one in very seat put at certain intervals.

Out of a curiosity, can you transport legally pax in a cargo aircraft (one with no windows at all )

[Startledgrapefruit]

https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2017/09/transatlantic-collaboration-sparks-plans-for-zero-emission-flight/

Think Easy also did another concept design about 7 or 7 years ago also.

[Aso]

I think it is great that we have people and companies trying to look forward! Easyjet is trying to push the boundries on electrical flights and now KLM on this. Perfect!

The fact that we are still being sold old crappy 1950's tubes as "new" MAX aircraft is beyond me....

[BluSdUp]

Now that is worth a shot!
I figure if we can have a leap of this magnitude long haul can eventually be acceptable with regards to the environment,so why not.

DAR
I think that if we get this one flying ice is not a big problem to solve.
Having logged a few 1000 hrs in turboprops fighting ice, only the Beech 100 was ever a problem as it never got over FL200 on the average 180 nm trips we flew.
The B200 and the Do 328TP just punched above it , and in the B 737 for 10 000 hrs plus I never had any issues.
DAR , lets embrace the Young and the idea. And if You have 150 Billion laying around mail it to TU Delft, NL.
The Futures so Bright we got to wear Shads!
Rayban On
Regards
cpt B

[cattletruck]

The problem was once explained to me by someone smarter than I as follows:

Engineering is hard, marketing is easier, and more graduates are choosing the easier path. Thus to keep themselves employed the marketeers are stealing the design function from the engineers... but there's slightly more to it than drawing pretty pictures and imaginary budgets. Further proof of this is the recent spate of electric drone shuttles that have been "designed" by marketeers but can barely get themselves off the ground.

But lets say for a moment that they pulled this off, the wing flex would be pretty awful on pax, and if they made it fully rigid then those air bumps might turn the interior into a flying circus of its own.

[Pilot DAR]

DAR , lets embrace the Young and the idea.

Certainly yes. However, in a formal, mentored learning/research environment, the visionary projects either must acknowledge the need to conform to the prevailing design requirements, or, discuss advancing those requirements also - which ones, and how. It's incomplete to just presume that the design requirements aren't there, or are old, and can be overlooked. Though the design requirements present as burdensome rules, they really are an important summary of lessons learned over the decades, and are owed acknowledgement as being the present wisdom. Sure, if the design requirements can be updated to harmonize with new technology, that's great, and a worthy objective, but it cannot be overlooked.

I was contracted to undertake certification planning for an STC'd modification to make a C 172 electric powered. The present design requirements do not enable this from a regulatory perspective, but only 'cause at the time the present design requirements were developed, there was no need to consider this. Now, there very certainly is, and I found the regulatory not only willing, but eager to undertake the development of new design requirements to enable electric aircraft. That happening is a certainty. However, the new design requirements will have to have the present ones as a starting point. Where a design cannon meet just one or two design requirements, it is common for a documented "Special condition" to be agreed upon between the design organization and regulator. That means that everyone has agreed that there's a different way, and allowed the design to proceed with that design.

So perhaps the innovative team at Delft have recognized the gaps between their design, and the prevailing design requirements - I hope so, that's a part of any design undertaking. If so, they have prepared a "compliance table" listing the prevailing design requirements, and either how compliance will be shown, or where there is a gap which will require a change to a design requirement. This design appears so innovative, that a whole bunch of special conditions will not be enough. New design requirements will be required, and that is an early and extensive step in such a project. Perhaps that has been addressed in the description of the aircraft, if so, well done. If not, an instructor/mentor to the team has overlooked an important step, and the project has passed itself a little too much....

Out of a curiosity, can you transport legally pax in a cargo aircraft (one with no windows at all )

I have approved ex freighter Cessna Caravans (no cabin windows) to carry parachutists. This was accepted by the authority, though with a sidewards glance (pun intended). I'm not aware of a design requirement stating that there must be windows for passengers to look out, but I think it's fairly widely agreed that passengers might not like the ride, if seeing out is impossible.

[Winemaker]

Well, it's not like any of this is new. Here's a 1971 NASA paper on lifting bodies.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19710009392.pdf

[Flap40]

So we sit next to the fuel?

No one complained about the location of the tanks in the Shorts 330 & 360.

[PastTense]

its a student exercise in engineering and, strangely enough, some students are pretty bright.

There are several articles in the media and they don't talk about it being a student exercise in engineering.

[WingNut60]

No one complained about the location of the tanks in the Shorts 330 & 360.

Centre tank on a 747?

[golfyankeesierra]

Fuel in the wings isn’t ideal either. The Superjet fire at SVO proves the point.
The theater seating is probably the breaking point. Pax just love the narrow tube..

[601]

Can someone decode this statement
"The Flying-V will ultimately be propelled by turbofan engines but is currently designed to fly on kerosene fuel"
V-Shaped Airliner (https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a27719105/klm-airline-flying-v-plane/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_pop&utm_medium=email&date=060519&src=nl&utm_campaign=17110872)

[Rated De]

There is no decode as it is simple PR.

As part of a suite of 'strategy' ICAO/IATA pump the technically feasible as solutions to aviation's continued reliance on fossil fuel.
A flying V sounds great, has great images and laminar flow is assured, however it is practically a long way from a commercially viable vehicle.
As is bio-fuel, technically feasible but commercially a long way from anything.

So expect to see conventional wings and air frames at airports world wide for decades, all burning the same jet kerosene fuel of today.

Of course a flying V might need a whole new lot of airport infrastructure world wide to accommodate it, but it sure is pretty...

[WingNut60]

I can not find it again now, but I seem to recall one of the current articles mentioning the "petrol tanks".

I took note at the time and just put it down to journalistic incompetence.
Maybe, just maybe, they are going to run this prototype on other than Avtur.

[Photonic]

I have approved ex freighter Cessna Caravans (no cabin windows) to carry parachutists. This was accepted by the authority, though with a sidewards glance (pun intended). I'm not aware of a design requirement stating that there must be windows for passengers to look out, but I think it's fairly widely agreed that passengers might not like the ride, if seeing out is impossible.

Most passengers in a wide body don't have a window view anyway. In the modern era of seat-back video displays, it might be enough to have a seat back display where every passenger could pan around the plane for outside views, fed by external cameras. Or heck, everyone gets a VR headset if they want to see outside, or what the pilots are seeing. Then you can save weight on the fuselage and reduce impact hazards with windows.

Where that gets dicey, is an in-flight or landing emergency situation, where the displays go dark and the pax are in a sealed cabin with no external view for anyone to know what's happening. Recipe for panic.

[tdracer]

I've posted this before, but new design concepts are a dime a dozen. Boeing has often played with a blended wing/body concept - apparently there is a pretty good drag carrot there if you can make it work - but even Boeing says if it ever happens, it'll probably start out as a military aircraft because it'll cost so that to do it commercially first would be corporate suicide if it goes badly.

Forty plus years ago I took a class on aircraft design in college (fun class - our prof literally wrote the book). You had to design an aircraft from scratch - and your final grade was determined by the quality (and documentation) of your design. Several of the people in the class initially tried to do 'revolutionary' designs (one was a vertical takeoff 'flying car', another a hydrogen fueled aircraft carrying fuel in the wings) - only to quickly discover that there is a pretty good reason why successful aircraft designs tend to look more or less the same.

[DaveReidUK]

Can someone decode this statement
"The Flying-V will ultimately be propelled by turbofan engines but is currently designed to fly on kerosene fuel"
V-Shaped Airliner (https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/a27719105/klm-airline-flying-v-plane/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_pop&utm_medium=email&date=060519&src=nl&utm_campaign=17110872)

It's a reference to the proposal that, eventually, the aircraft could be powered by "electrically-boosted turbofans" (whatever they are!), but is designed around conventional turbofan powerplants.

The journo has simply left out the electric reference, rendering the statement meaningless.

[cattletruck]

apparently there is a pretty good drag carrot there if you can make it work

I was thinking about this the other day, the Mirage fighter jet's delta wing whilst very efficient at high speed generates enormous drag at low speeds, should the donk(s) stop then it needs a ridiculous amount of speed (190Kts) to glide (at roughly 45 degrees nose down). There was even an old joke that developed which recommended that if the engine stopped then open the canopy, throw out a brick and follow it down.

But I'm sure the marketeers now running the design department will simply bolt a big emergency parachute to it, and the remaining engineer will devise a brick quick release system for guidance.

[Pilot DAR]

it needs a ridiculous amount of speed (190Kts) to glide (at roughly 45 degrees nose down)

'Brings to mind the space shuttle, watching the cockpit view of the approach to land is pretty startling for a fixed wing pilot. I had the opportunity to fly a modest space shuttle glide landing simulator - I could do it, but was looking out the top of the windshield for the runway.

The fact that a military or experimental aircraft can accomplish a maneuver does not mean that it's certifiable for civil applications. I believe that it's still a requirement for an airliner to be able to fly a glide approach to landing with average pilot skill. Yes, the space shuttle glides to land, but is the pilot skill "average"?

I'm not a naysayer to advancement, but the aviation industry has a huge investment in the present design standards, so we must either follow them, or devote the effort to develop new ones...

[Vilters]

Good luck de-icing those leading edges.
No need?
Think the moisture in the air will be so scared that it will refuse the freeze?

De-icing is gonna require some doing. (And there is a LOT of surface for the ice to stick on. )

[3rd_ear]

Presumably instead of conventional landing gear, it will have tele-castors.

[megan]

the Mirage fighter jet's delta wing whilst very efficient at high speed generates enormous drag at low speeds, should the donk(s) stop then it needs a ridiculous amount of speed (190Kts) to glide (at roughly 45 degrees nose down). There was even an old joke that developed which recommended that if the engine stopped then open the canopy, throw out a brick and follow it down

Flt Lt. Garry Cooper dead sticked Mirage A3-29 into a crop dusting airstrip after swallowing a bird. Severe bollocking I believe.

[Pilot DAR]

John Farley told me that he dead sticked a Hawker Harrier at Edwards Airforce Base. He said the gliding approach speed was about 250 knots, but otherwise it was not difficult! I just keep thinking about those itty bitty wingtip wheels touching the runway at speeds like that!

The fact that a Mirage, Harrier, the Space Shuttle, or a lifting body can fly a gliding landing at high speeds and descent rates does not mean its certifiable that way in a civil aircraft! Hmmm, I wonder how the Concorde glided, I presume it had to for certification....

[EEngr]

Speaking as SLF, I'm not sure I'd like to ride in one of the outboard seats. The vertical motion as the plane banks is going to resemble a roller-coaster ride.

[atpcliff]

It seems a lot of posters here are not willing to accept a new aircraft design.

Maybe they would be more comfortable with the 737 Max 2000, seating 480 people, with a variety of software changes to make the aircraft "flyable"...

[Lord Bracken]

I've posted this before, but new design concepts are a dime a dozen. Boeing has often played with a blended wing/body concept - apparently there is a pretty good drag carrot there if you can make it work - but even Boeing says if it ever happens, it'll probably start out as a military aircraft ...

Hasn't it already been done with the B2?

[tdracer]

Hasn't it already been done with the B2?
Not really - the B2 is a 'flying wing', not a blended wing/body. The blended wing/body concept has some similarities to a flying wing, but it's not the same thing.

[pattern_is_full]

The B1A/B approached a blended wing, although 1) the blending was interrupted at about 15% span by the need for variable sweep, and 2) it is a fair question what is "blending" and what is just an oversized fairing. Definitely not a flying wing, though. But, of course, that was Rockwell, not Boeing. However, Rockwell Aerospace is now a part of Boeing. ;)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/A_B-1_Lancer_performs_a_fly-by_during_a_firepower_demonstration.jpg (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/A_B-1_Lancer_performs_a_fly-by_during_a_firepower_demonstration.jpg)

[Pilot DAR]

It seems a lot of posters here are not willing to accept a new aircraft design.

Speaking for myself, what I can "accept" and what I can approve may not be the same thing. I have test flown modified aircraft, which ultimately, I would not approve, and the aircraft was not approved in that configuration. Designs either must conform to the design requirements, or the design requirements must be adjusted to accommodate the innovative design. Aircraft which cannot demonstrate compliance to the requirements do not get approved for commercial use. This is an important aspect of the consideration of a new design.

[RatherBeFlying]

The thickness / chord ratio reminds me of lighter than air vehicles.

There have been a bunch of such projects, but methinks the speeds will be lower than would be economical for a jet.

The other challenge will be pressurisation.

Fine for scenic tours and short jaunts between cities.

[tdracer]

Pattern, what I'd heard was that what Boeing was looking at was a blending wing/body as a military transport - basically a next generation replacement for the C-17 and C-5 (so obviously years away).
Basically the idea was that the government would finance the development, then Boeing could repurpose the technology for a commercial transport.
BTW, going with a composite construction would help solve the issues with pressurization of the unusually shaped 'fuselage'.

[golfyankeesierra]

Basically the idea was that the government would finance the development, then Boeing could repurpose the technology for a commercial transport.
M
a practical way to subsidize new technology without actually subsidizing 😀

[jantar99]

Out of a curiosity, can you transport legally pax in a cargo aircraft (one with no windows at all )

Russian Ministry of Emergency carried pax in a cargo/military/state-owned IL-76 from Nepal to Moscow Domodedovo after an earthquake.

[WingNut60]

..........
Out of a curiosity, can you transport legally pax in a cargo aircraft (one with no windows at all )



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/448x336/_4a_df50de5647651d3f16fb706798c5dac1d9bff54f.jpg

Legally? Not sure............

[PAXboy]

I have read the entire thread and understand the need for 'blue sky thinking' but it appears from this simplistic image the the cabins are presented at a strong angle to the direction of travel, which might generate some drag? The high engine position will make a quick inspection into a long inspection. Especially interesting to have to get to those donks on the stand on a wet and windy night.

[Vilters]

You might see a financial black hole if you have to feed all C-130 passengers. LOL.