DA40 night over water

[ACMS]

Just watched 2 FTA DA40’s depart Parafield and fly directly across St Vincent’s gulf to Kangaroo island, at around 4,000’ !! Call me old fashioned but I wouldn’t be flying a single engine to Kangaroo Island at night in winter over water at low level even with life jackets.....

Where’s the common sense in this?

[Centaurus]

The lights in the water are not fishing boats in that part of the world, but the upturned eyes and snouts of the Noah's Arks (sharks for the ignorant)

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Where would you fly a single engine aircraft at night? Are the survival odds any better for crashing on land?

[machtuk]

As we all know aviation is about risk, personal risk. When I got my class 4 many moons ago I was brave (probably more foolish) & used to fly whatever I could hire around remote area's as well as cities (coastal) at night. Advance fwd near 40 years would I do it again in a SE? NOWAY! I won't even fly SE IMC or over water despite numerous trips to the islands off Vic back when I was foolish & I have my own aircraft these days so I know it very well, I wanna die a grumpy old man not shark bait or in a special care hospital with a broken back!
Each to their own.

[cmcmon]

A straight line from Parafeild to Kangaroo Island looks pretty close to the coast. Especially at 4000ft

[cooperplace]

I flew to KI a while back, daytime, 7000'. Would have been happy to be higher. At KI I met a fellow who'd just flown his Jab across at 2500'. Each to his own, I guess. As an RA Aus pilot, what would I know?

[Baldnfat]

A lot of noise about survival post ditching in that body of water and getting chomped by Jaws.
If a fixed wing single or multi does a textbook ditching there day or night in June. Hypothermia is thine enemy.

[Squawk7700]

Unless I’m mistaken, nobody has survived a Bass Strait ditching, day OR night !

The two guys in the Thruster went down in Banks strait.

[ACMS]

A straight line from Parafeild to Kangaroo Island looks pretty close to the coast. Especially at 4000ft


ahhh no, puts you well outside glide distance, around 16 nm from land.
If I “had” to go direct in a single it would be at 10,000’ but I wouldn’t fly direct at low level just to avoid the YPAD class D....
All kinds of ignorance flying there at 4,000’

I’ve also seen plenty of single engine NVFR at 6,000 over the hills north east of Melb to. Crazy when they could go via MNG ML at higher level and greatly increase their survival chances after failure.

What are some people thinking?
Obviously not much !!

[cooperplace]

At its narrowest point (and why would you cross anywhere else in a single engine?) it's a bit under 9 miles. Takes about 5 minutes in the jab, during which time you listen even more carefully than usual to the engine. I would do it during the day in perfect weather only, but I'm a renowned coward.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
We all know, as land based pilots, that the engine goes into "auto-rough" as soon as you are out of gliding distance of land ---- unless you are a naval aviator, when a similar event occurs as soon as you are out of gliding distance of water.
Similarly, I have often wondered how an engine tells night from day.
Ain't human psychology wonderful, particularly when it is applied (more truly misapplied) to aviation risk assessment. Lead Balloon's perception bias does come to mind.
Tootle pip!!

[megan]

Unless I’m mistaken, nobody has survived a Bass Strait ditching, day OR nightYou may be talking FW, familiar with two RW ditchings (I winched one lot out where all survived and barely got their feet wet), the other involved two fatalities, probably a result of crash dynamics hitting the water almost inverted, six survivors.

[Squawk7700]

You may be talking FW, familiar with two RW ditchings (I winched one lot out where all survived and barely got their feet wet), the other involved two fatalities, probably a result of crash dynamics hitting the water almost inverted, six survivors.

When was that Megan and what were they flying? I don’t remember either of them.

[AmarokGTI]

When I was flying a Swiss SE Turbine Adelaide to the island was a FL120 leg, or even up to FL160 if it was off Rwy05 and onto the Rwy01 RNAV. Rex does it at 8/9000 typically in the Saab.
4000ft (even with a life jacket) isn’t ideal but then a lot of the time they go down to 2200’ overwater still and practice holding (inc at night). The hardest part is managing them as traffic - usually the students second language English radio calls are better than the South African instructors botched attempts.

[machtuk]

I flew to KI a while back, daytime, 7000'. Would have been happy to be higher. At KI I met a fellow who'd just flown his Jab across at 2500'. Each to his own, I guess. As an RA Aus pilot, what would I know?

Give that 'Jab' guy a cigar, he's one brave sole! -:)

[Capt Fathom]

How about Moresby to Madang at night in a C185! I was a rather reluctant participant (passenger).
Probably safer than the flying I was doing during daylight hours.

[harrryw]

At least at night you do not have to shut your eyes.

[Squawk7700]

Give that 'Jab' guy a cigar, he's one brave sole! -:)

A couple of chaps flew a couple of Jabiru’s to NZ a half dozen years ago.

[cowl flaps]

A couple of chaps flew a couple of Jabiru’s to NZ a half dozen years ago.
I'd fly a Rotax powered Jab to N.Z.- but I wouldn't do one circuit in a Jab powered Jab.

[megan]

When was that Megan and what were they flying? I don’t remember either of them.27th January 1979 I winched five from a ditched Bell 205, cause one main rotor blade yoke had fractured leaving the blade attached only by the tension torsion strap causing excessive vibration.

The other.

https://www.faaaa.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Board-of-Inquiry-Report-Wessex-825.pdf

You might note the comment re hypothermia in the report bearing in mind it was December ie summer, not the middle of winter. The same aircraft UHP was used in both rescues.

[ACMS]

ACMS, are you suggesting simply 'box-ticking' is a better solution to training up and coming pilots in Australia?

Rather than expose potential charter pilots (yes.. they train people other than Asian students believe it or not..) to what they might be faced with once gaining their instrument rating, should they be wrapped in cotton wool and practice night flying at 2000ft above an airfield? Kingscote is as black as it gets at night and great real-world exposure for students late in their training.

Also, personally I'd also prefer the ocean to the mount lofty ranges at night time... at least you know what altitude the ocean starts out there.

oh don’t be stupid, box ticking?

there’s stupid risk and acceptable risk. They flew that way at low level to avoid Class C and D airspace.....

Most people would rather forced land at night on land than in the cold dark sea. Much easier for rescuers to find you as well.
Not only that higher Altitude gives you a lot more time and choices.....4,000’ and its all over in 5 mins .......

There’s plenty of places that they can go at night better than that.
if they want dark night circuits then fly down there in daylight and wait if it’s so important, or better still wait and do that trip in the Twin DA42......simple

[cooperplace]

27th January 1979 I winched five from a ditched Bell 205, cause one main rotor blade yoke had fractured leaving the blade attached only by the tension torsion strap causing excessive vibration.

The other.

https://www.faaaa.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Board-of-Inquiry-Report-Wessex-825.pdf

You might note the comment re hypothermia in the report bearing in mind it was December ie summer, not the middle of winter. The same aircraft UHP was used in both rescues.

Megan,
That's an amazing story; you saved lives, an extraordinary achievement. I for one would be happy to read a full account of the first incident. The second I can get from that link, thanks.

[machtuk]

I'd fly a Rotax powered Jab to N.Z.- but I wouldn't do one circuit in a Jab powered Jab.

hahaha, that about sums it up nicely:-) There's a Jab owner at my drome that has his bonnet up every W/E, there's always something wrong with his Jab donk.....that's enuf for me to say good luck:-)
Each to their own obviously, luckily we have choice these days:-)

[Time Map Ground]

oh don’t be stupid, box ticking?

there’s stupid risk and acceptable risk. They flew that way at low level to avoid Class C and D airspace.....

Most people would rather forced land at night on land than in the cold dark sea. Much easier for rescuers to find you as well.
Not only that higher Altitude gives you a lot more time and choices.....4,000’ and its all over in 5 mins .......

There’s plenty of places that they can go at night better than that.
if they want dark night circuits then fly down there in daylight and wait if it’s so important, or better still wait and do that trip in the Twin DA42......simple


Perhaps a couple of points worth noting:

Flying at A040 does not exempt them from having to talk to AD approach. They would still have to fly through class C airspace after departing PF CTAF.
The short flight between PF-KSC might not permit enough time for a climb to A100. For a normally aspirated DA40 to make it to A100 in such a short time, you would need very favourable conditions like high pressure and very low temperatures.
Do not forget that light training aircraft like the DA40 are susceptible to airframe and engine icing. Freezing levels down south can easily be as low as 4,000 or 5,000 feet at this time of the year, so it would not make sense to climb into icing conditions.

[ACMS]

Perhaps a couple of points worth noting:

Flying at A040 does not exempt them from having to talk to AD approach. They would still have to fly through class C airspace after departing PF CTAF.
The short flight between PF-KSC might not permit enough time for a climb to A100. For a normally aspirated DA40 to make it to A100 in such a short time, you would need very favourable conditions like high pressure and very low temperatures.
Do not forget that light training aircraft like the DA40 are susceptible to airframe and engine icing. Freezing levels down south can easily be as low as 4,000 or 5,000 feet at this time of the year, so it would not make sense to climb into icing conditions.



1/ FZL an issue? Making you fly low over water at night IMC in a single, then perhaps DON’T GO.
2/ pretty sure they tracked initially NE then W then SW at 2,500’ below the CTA step then 4,000’ below the next step.
3/ yes the climb performance won’t be flash BUT they could have waited for a clearance over AD, gone higher and stayed left of the DCT track closer to the coast line and inside glide distance of it.

It doesn't matter I guess, they made it there and back ok, it just seems unnecessary risk that’s all. Something at my age I’ve learned not to take.

[cooperplace]

hahaha, that about sums it up nicely:-) There's a Jab owner at my drome that has his bonnet up every W/E, there's always something wrong with his Jab donk.....that's enuf for me to say good luck:-)
Each to their own obviously, luckily we have choice these days:-)

I've got a couple of hundred hours in a jab-powered jab; it was a jab that I flew to KI. It's never given any trouble. Each to his own.

[Stickshift3000]

I've got a couple of hundred hours in a jab-powered jab; it was a jab that I flew to KI. It's never given any trouble. Each to his own.

At night!? ;)

[Stickshift3000]

It doesn't matter I guess, they made it there and back ok, it just seems unnecessary risk that’s all. Something at my age I’ve learned not to take.

‘Unnecessary risk’ for some would include climbing into any cockpit...

Life choices are all about risk appetite and risk management. Increased risk can lead to increased reward - relatively speaking - including for those DA40 pilots, as silly as it may seem to some.

[cooperplace]

At night!? ;)
Good god no! I only fly in the day, and in excellent weather. I'm a complete coward. I don't have to fly, so I only do it when I can stack the cards in my favor.

[megan]

That's an amazing story; you saved lives, an extraordinary achievement. I for one would be happy to read a full account of the first incidentThere is nothing to add to the tale really. The ditched aircraft was fitted with floats and was retrieved by a work boat and back in the air by at least 11th February when I first flew it following the ditching. The folks hopped into a life raft for the winching and at no time was it a dramatic life saving event, just a repeat of what we did in training. A correction, the fault was in the blade grip, not the yoke as I said. Photo of one aircraft.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1418/save0000_17c2f0a43e5fd564fcc7eb5762712fa7a36380b4.jpg

[cooperplace]

That's a fantastic effort. You're very modest, and clearly have excellent training and skills.

[Mach E Avelli]

I have studied ditching in some detail, and know ferry pilots who have related their actual ditching experiences to me. They were lucky, one being pulled off the Arctic ice before freezing to death. Another, who had ditched at least twice before, ended up with a permanent disability from his injuries when he put a BN2 Islander into relatively calm water. On another occasion I was flying a DC3 over the North Sea when I heard someone putting a Cessna 172 into the drink. They knew roughly where he was, but he did not survive.
Even with this knowledge, I have also taken plenty of unnecessary risks in my time, including flying a Jabiru-powered Sonex across Bass Strait several times. The last trip cured me of such risk-taking forever. Low cloud forced me down to below 500ft and the sea was far too rough for any ditching to have been survivable. I consoled myself in the knowledge that if the impact did not kill me outright, death would be quick in such cold water.
Were the pilots of the two DA 40s fully aware that a night ditching is unlikely to be survivable unless executed with considerable skill and into calm water?
Were they fully briefed on the risks, and on minimum altitudes required to have a hope of gliding to land? Who sent them out there? Someone may need a smack on the bottom.

[Sunfish]

Where is CASA on this matter? Surely there are safety issues here?

[outnabout]

I am curious to know why flying over water (day or night) is considered so dangerous, so risky, when every capital city GA airport has Ranges nearby which must be crossed which I consider should be treated with equal respect. In Darwin's case, maybe no Ranges, but certainly the waterways nearby contain things with teeth that I would rather not mess with.

If you are trained, current and confident, to fly an aircraft (single or twin) in VFR, IMC, over water, over Tiger country, day, night, upside down, then go for your life. But if you are not trained, current or confident (Pick any one of these three) then may I suggest - don't.

But I really would prefer if you didn't let your standards and your limits stop me.

[megan]

I am curious to know why flying over water (day or night) is considered so dangerousIt's persons willingness to accept the risk entailed I guess. Richard Collins, aviation author, happily flew his 210 day or night IMC, but had his personal limits, such as cloud base high enough for him to set up for a landing into whatever was below in the event of an engine out.Where is CASA on this matter? Surely there are safety issues hereStickshift has given you the answer Sunny.Life choices are all about risk appetite and risk management There was a time when CASA, or whatever its name was at the time, approved commercial single engine pax operations over water far from land, simply because the world didn't have equipment to do otherwise. Only requirement was no more than 50 miles between available landing spots. Single engine sightseeing commercial ops are still carried out on the barrier reef of course.

[machtuk]

Every now & then this subject matter comes up & it's always interesting the replies, SE over water day or night is simply not for everyone. We each have our reasons as to why we would or wouldn't, doubt anyone here is trying to stop anyone from doing so either way, these pages are simply accounts or beliefs of such stunts, no more or no less. It's a free world (well kind of!) any of us are welcome to head out over water in a SE day or night & accept the higher risks associated with such a flight, in other words knock yourselves out, at my age with plenty of experience behind me (like many in here) I'll be watching from the shore with dry feet:-):-)
Mankind went to the Moon 50 years ago (just about) which at the time was extremely risky, would anyone do it again today using the same equip/technology? Obviously no cause we have choices today (unlike back then) just like we do now crossing a body of water in a SE plane, we have a choice:-)

[mostlytossas]

Have we become a nation of wimps? How do you think our fore fathers got on? Flying single engine aircraft in wartime over the coast not only risking a ditching due to engine trouble but engaging enemy aircraft with the good chance of being shot down as well. Post war single engine air ambulances flew all weather in the outback and inner country areas. The list goes on.... Fast forward to present day and some of you are horrified with the thought of flying over a bit of water relatively close to land or even at night in VMC in a single engine aircraft! I mean really take up knitting if you want to be 100% safe. I trust these same people wouldn't drive on country roads at night with no street lighting with wildlife lurking to attack the unsuspecting. And as for motorcycles don't even go there. Far too risky for you.
Stick to walking or train travel only and be happy in your own little world that you are safe. But leave the rest of us to get on with life and what we enjoy without people like you calling for CASA or new rules stopping us. There are plenty of rules already ( some say more than enough) to keep things as safe as reasonably can be expected. Nothing in life is without some risk. Going on about this sort of nonsense will just cause more angst until GA finally gets shut down by the aviation ignorant.

[Mach E Avelli]

And what do the 'plenty of rules' already say about minimum altitudes for single engine commercial operations over water? From the OP, the two aircraft were estimated to be at 4000 feet, in the dark, beyond gliding distance from land.
The days of a 'gung ho' culture in aviation have gone forever. Today people litigate when bad **** happens, even when they contribute to that bad **** either through ignorance or stupidity.
Engine failure? Sue the manufacturer, MRO and whoever signed the last maintenance release. Ditched and flipped inverted/sank? Sue the designer, builder, instructor and flight organisation who hired the thing out. Drowned? Rellies sue the rescue organisation for not being instantly on the crash site.
GA is already in destruct mode, without pilots being encouraged to take unnecessary risks. Every time people die in light aircraft accidents it hastens that demise.
Btw although the years finally made me risk-averse to over-water in bugsmashers, I still ride a motorcycle, knowing that statistically the motorcycle is the more dangerous. But at least I am fully informed, which may not have been the case with those student pilots.

[ACMS]

Have we become a nation of wimps? How do you think our fore fathers got on? Flying single engine aircraft in wartime over the coast not only risking a ditching due to engine trouble but engaging enemy aircraft with the good chance of being shot down as well. Post war single engine air ambulances flew all weather in the outback and inner country areas. The list goes on.... Fast forward to present day and some of you are horrified with the thought of flying over a bit of water relatively close to land or even at night in VMC in a single engine aircraft! I mean really take up knitting if you want to be 100% safe. I trust these same people wouldn't drive on country roads at night with no street lighting with wildlife lurking to attack the unsuspecting. And as for motorcycles don't even go there. Far too risky for you.
Stick to walking or train travel only and be happy in your own little world that you are safe. But leave the rest of us to get on with life and what we enjoy without people like you calling for CASA or new rules stopping us. There are plenty of rules already ( some say more than enough) to keep things as safe as reasonably can be expected. Nothing in life is without some risk. Going on about this sort of nonsense will just cause more angst until GA finally gets shut down by the aviation ignorant.


We are not at war time conditions mate....

It’s you that could be called ignorant, blissfully ignorant of the extra unnecessary dangers that don’t NEED to be taken, then expecting other good people to come out risking their lives to save your sorry ass.

[machtuk]

Have we become a nation of wimps? How do you think our fore fathers got on? Flying single engine aircraft in wartime over the coast not only risking a ditching due to engine trouble but engaging enemy aircraft with the good chance of being shot down as well. Post war single engine air ambulances flew all weather in the outback and inner country areas. The list goes on.... Fast forward to present day and some of you are horrified with the thought of flying over a bit of water relatively close to land or even at night in VMC in a single engine aircraft! I mean really take up knitting if you want to be 100% safe. I trust these same people wouldn't drive on country roads at night with no street lighting with wildlife lurking to attack the unsuspecting. And as for motorcycles don't even go there. Far too risky for you.
Stick to walking or train travel only and be happy in your own little world that you are safe. But leave the rest of us to get on with life and what we enjoy without people like you calling for CASA or new rules stopping us. There are plenty of rules already ( some say more than enough) to keep things as safe as reasonably can be expected. Nothing in life is without some risk. Going on about this sort of nonsense will just cause more angst until GA finally gets shut down by the aviation ignorant.


ACMS I think he's feeling a a little butt hurt, are we? Talk about going off the rails there! War time? If I recall they had no choice WE have!
Relax take a bex and lie down, it's all about personal risk/choice

[flywatcher]

Having flown across Bass Strait some hundreds of times, mainly in single engine certified aircraft, day and night, IFR and VFR I fail to see why everybody is so worried about a little bit of water. Devonport to Wilsons Promotory is 125 nautical miles, one hour in a 182. Assuming a properly maintained 182 the engine has a service life of either 1500, 1700, or 2000 hrs depending in the model. If it is properly maintained the odds are extremely good it will fulfill this requirement without a catastrophic failure. The engine always runs rough once you are out of gliding distance from land but only if you can see the water. If you go into cloud or put a layer of cloud between you and the water it smooths out again. I have always carried a switlick helicopter life jacket, a life raft, a personal epirb and a portable aircraft band radio transmitter in a water tight cover and had liferaft entry and egress training. I wore a Mustang survival suit for a while but it was too hot and too hard to fly in, so after a while I left it at home. I planned for the worst and hoped for the best. In those crossings, plus many thousands of hours spotting fish offshore I have never ever even had a sick engine, let alone a dead engine. The odds of losing a properly maintained engine are such that I would probably have to do it all three of four times over again before the odds came up against me. To be quite honest, if I had to ditch at night I think I would prefer to take my chances with a landing in the water than the same thing in cloud, in darkness, in the winter, in the central highlands.Single engine aircraft that are certified IFR and are flown IFR by a properly qualified and current pilot, day or night, are many times safer than VFR scud running and trying to keep out of cloud. Flame me if you like but after doing it for over fifty years I am still here.

[LeadSled]

Flywatcher,
Well said!!
Tootle pip!!

[cooperplace]

Have we become a nation of wimps? How do you think our fore fathers got on? Flying single engine aircraft in wartime over the coast not only risking a ditching due to engine trouble but engaging enemy aircraft with the good chance of being shot down as well..
A friend lost his uncle in WW2 in precisely those circs: ditched, didn't survive; just a young guy. We were talking about it a few days ago, and how glad we were that this doesn't happen any more. This "wimps" talk is absurd and there's no place for it now.

[Cloudee]

Well said fly watcher! The risk of my engine failing while I am out of gliding rang is so infinitesimally small that I am happy to take it, along with all the other risks that make up my days. It’s a personal choice but I think if you calculated the risk based on actual occurrences (rather than perceived risk) it would come far below other things people do in everyday life without a second thought.

Heres a really interesting article on risk and perceived risk. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-22/how-deadly-are-your-regular-activities-the-conversation/8293356

[Squawk7700]

Odds.

Lose and engine over Bass Strait and you’re most likely to die*.

Lose an engine over 90 miles of land around say Southern Victoria and your are highly un-likely to die.

It’s not about the level of risk, but rather the impact should the risk be realised.

* Note we have determined that nobody has ever survived a fixed wing ditching in Bass Straight.

[machtuk]

Odds.

Lose and engine over Bass Strait and you’re most likely to die*.

Lose an engine over 90 miles of land around say Southern Victoria and your are highly un-likely to die.

It’s not about the level of risk, but rather the impact should the risk be realised.

* Note we have determined that nobody has ever survived a fixed wing ditching in Bass Straight.



exactly Squawky but some prefer to be hero's!

[Cloudee]

Just how many single engine aircraft have fallen out of the sky because of engine failure over water in the last ten years or so? I can’t think of any off the top of my head. Maybe I just put them out of my mind!

[nonsense]

Not Bass Strait, but being a single engine aircraft apparently lost over Australian coastal waters, it's topical:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-05/plane-missing-off-gold-coast-prompts-search-yak-52/11183322

[compressor stall]

This takes me back to some 20 years ago. I had a C210 charter from Darwin to Kalumburu with passengers returning home from a trip somewhere down south. The well known Father Anscar from Kalumburu mission was in the back row alone, and two locals in the middle row and one next to me. It was a wet season day, but still early and I tracked down the coast to Cape Ford(?) so that it was less than 100nm over water across to the Kimberley coast. The multi hued green floodplains were on my left and the turbid brown and aqua blotched ocean stretched away to my right.

The aircraft was a lovely 210 white with big red Cessna style stripes, very well maintained and looked after. I'd only flown it a few times before and it was the fastest in the fleet at the time.

Now like many of us, once over water or at night in a single, the engine makes odd sounds. I've been there, done that, "grown up" and was convinced that it was completely part of the imagination. Completely and absolutely.

Turning westwards from Cape Ford out over the calm but murky water, I turned around to see that pax were asleep. I was cruising at 8500, so not unexpected in the smooth air. All was going nicely, no autopilot but easy flying with a nicely trimmed straight aircraft. Nevertheless, I did take note of the trawlers and other white dots of boats in the Gulf below just in case. Not that I was worried, but basic airmanship, no different to knowing where safe landing ground is flying anywhere in a single.

It was pre GPS, and I remember checking my watch and flight plan and thinking just one more minute and I am halfway across the Joseph Bonaparte Gulf and then closer to the Kimberley on the far side. It was my first trip into the Kimberley since my lap of Australia in PPL days, so I was looking forward to it. I relaxed, and enjoyed the view. Happy that fate and coincidental timing had me landed a job in Darwin inside a week - almost unheard of in the 90's - and here three weeks later I was getting paid to fly around the outback, a place I loved, in a nice aircraft.

With happiness and a pride in my thoughts damned if I didn't hear the engine run rough for a split second. I didn't move my head from staring out the window so as not to alarm any awake pax, but my eyes were quickly fixated, sideways on the small instruments like a hawk. Fuel pressure was OK. Oil good. Fuel quantity was just fine, and I'd dipped them an hour before and knew it wasn't starvation. I started cursing myself, thinking my irrational fears were overriding my rational feelings.

I stayed motionless, pretending to stare out the window, but repeatedly scanning every thing in front of me. About 15 seconds later, she properly did cough for a second. There was no imagination there. This was real. As reflex action, fuel pump on, switch tanks. Still I had my head turned out the window, but eyes cast askew at the panel. All normal readings on everything. All 300 horses were still humming away outside. I took note of some trawlers in gliding distance and started thinking about wind and ditching direction, looking on the water for clues. Fortunately it was like a mill pond in the tropical doldrums so that made it easy.

As the engine seemed to be running just fine, the adrenaline waned, and I casually looked around to see if the pax had noticed our oh-so brief interruption to the flight. The locals' eyes were wide, like white saucers contrasted again their jet black skin. Yep, they'd noticed alright.

I turned further to see if Father Anscar had been awoken by the noise. The sight I saw I will take to the grave. There he was in the back of my aircraft, hands clasped together tightly raised in front of his chest looking towards the low ceiling of the cabin saying prayers aloud....

[cooperplace]

You're lucky you had the Fr there, obviously that saved the day: the power of prayer. Reminds me of when I had to pick up a catholic priest at O'Hare in Chicago and drive him to the South Side, in 5pm traffic. Normally 1 hr, but with Fr Pat beside me, all traffic on the Kennedy and Dan Ryan expressways instantly parted, like the proverbial waters, allowing 75mph all the way, in rush-hr traffic. Did it in 20 minutes. I'm usually an avowed atheist BTW.
PS: did you work out what was wrong with the 210?

[exfocx]

Compressor Stall,

Loved that story!

To some of the others, we are talking about trainees here, so what experience do they have to assess the risk, and did they have any say in it anyway? You bet that the engine knows not night or day, nor water or land, however if it does stop your chances at night, over water are pretty bloody dim. As some have pointed out chances of it failing are slim, but if it does the consequences are monumental.

I can recall my former CFI, a very well regarded Dutchman doing my NVMC rating, who hated flying at night. I don't recall him saying anything positive about it. I did a lot of NVMC in singles in the 80s in the Kimberly and S/E IFR night out of Jandakot and actually liked it, but I was young and bloody dumb. I would never choose to do that again, spent too much time in multi-engine turbines and jets to even consider it anymore. I think it's likely that those who look upon it as dumb, have moved on from that flying and see the risk with different eyes.

[ACMS]

Yep, the young dumb and full of cum..........

Their older instructors should know better

[flywatcher]

Odds.

Lose and engine over Bass Strait and you’re most likely to die*.

Lose an engine over 90 miles of land around say Southern Victoria and your are highly un-likely to die.

It’s not about the level of risk, but rather the impact should the risk be realised.

* Note we have determined that nobody has ever survived a fixed wing ditching in Bass Straight.


I can't remember the specifics but I recall at least three ditchings where all survived. There was a Partenavia I believe that ditched near Wilsons Promontory and a father and his young son survived OK, I remember a Cherokee doing the same trick, and I know that an ultra light ditched near Clark Island. Off those that did not survive, all the ones I know were multi engined, going right back to the early De Havilland airliners, a twin engined freighter, (Argosy) and also on 17th July 1983 an Aero Commander 685 Whisky Juliet Charlie. I would hazard a guess that the death toll in multi engined aircraft is probably much higher than in singles. Please note, I haven't mentioned Frederick Valentich on 21st October 1978 because 1. It is not known if it was a ditching and 2. it was never proved that he ended up in Bass Strait.

[Squawk7700]

I can't remember the specifics but I recall at least three ditchings where all survived. There was a Partenavia I believe that ditched near Wilsons Promontory and a father and his young son survived OK, I remember a Cherokee doing the same trick, and I know that an ultra light ditched near Clark Island. Off those that did not survive, all the ones I know were multi engined, going right back to the early De Havilland airliners, a twin engined freighter, (Argosy) and also on 17th July 1983 an Aero Commander 685 Whisky Juliet Charlie. I would hazard a guess that the death toll in multi engined aircraft is probably much higher than in singles. Please note, I haven't mentioned Frederick Valentich on 21st October 1978 because 1. It is not known if it was a ditching and 2. it was never proved that he ended up in Bass Strait.

Some of old mate UFO Fred’s wreckage washed up a few years later on the coast and it was linked to the same aircraft type and was within the serial number range of his aircraft.

There will be a technicality there that if it was adjacent to Wilson’s Prom it’s possibly not Bass Strait and the Thruster ultralight a few years back was in Banks Strait unless I’m horribly mistaken.

There was a guy many years ago in a very lightweight ultralight took off from Latrobe Valley headed for Yarram. He went on top of cloud and picked up a screaming northerly and when he came down he was over one of the islands off Wilson’s Prom, such as Rabbit or Cliffy. He was able to land safely due to the strong winds and through some amazing luck he was rescued by boat from the island. They would probably have never found him otherwise.

[megan]

a twin engined freighter, (Argosy) and also on 17th July 1983 an Aero Commander 685 Whisky Juliet CharlieWas a Bristol Freighter rather than four engine Argosy, the Aero Commander event the chap could highly likely been rescued had their not been a balls up in organisation. The various other helicopters available can be discounted as first priority rescue craft on the grounds of unsuitable location, being single-engine, or not being winch-equipped. The possible exception was one of the Bell 205s at Longford. These, although single-engine,are equipped with floats and a suitable winch, and being on SAR standby for the oil drilling platforms, had a better response time than either the S76 or one of the B212s.The situation at Longford on 17 July was unusual. Regular helicopter flights had been cancelled because of an industrial problem on the oil rigs, with the result that the S76, B212 and B205 helicopters were all on the ground, with one standby crew and maintenance personnel immediately available. The B205 was ready to go and the operator estimated that the S76 or B212 would have required 20 minutes to fit a winch.The SARMC did not check the availability of the helicopters at Longford. He reported later that this decision was based on his view that the response time would have been too long, from his personal knowledge of the organisation gained in previous visits and discussions.The response time of the 205 and S-76 were similar, although the 205 had a winch permanently fitted it still required refuelling, seating removed, stretcher, slings etc loaded. The S-76 likewise, with the addition fitting the winch which was a quick job. Cruise speed of the S-76 would have put it on task quicker than the 205, 155 versus 100 knots cruise, the Vne in both cases. We only found out about the ditching on the TV news that night, no body contacted us. Was working that day, there would have been at least four other crews also, caused us a fair measure on angst.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5226548/198302284.pdf

[flywatcher]

You are right there Megan, my mistake a Bristol Freighter. Had an involvement in WJC, there were also other resources that could have been used. A tragedy all round

[machtuk]

Was a Bristol Freighter rather than four engine Argosy, the Aero Commander event the chap could highly likely been rescued had their not been a balls up in organisation. The response time of the 205 and S-76 were similar, although the 205 had a winch permanently fitted it still required refuelling, seating removed, stretcher, slings etc loaded. The S-76 likewise, with the addition fitting the winch which was a quick job. Cruise speed of the S-76 would have put it on task quicker than the 205, 155 versus 100 knots cruise, the Vne in both cases. We only found out about the ditching on the TV news that night, no body contacted us. Was working that day, there would have been at least four other crews also, caused us a fair measure on angst.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5226548/198302284.pdf

I remember this very event. was A TOTAL BALLS UP! Poor bugga was in the drink alive for around 2 hrs, that's unbelievable ! He died at the hands of incompetence! The drivers of the F27's must have been feeling totally hopeless!:-(

[cooperplace]

I remember this very event. was A TOTAL BALLS UP! Poor bugga was in the drink alive for around 2 hrs, that's unbelievable ! He died at the hands of incompetence! The drivers of the F27's must have been feeling totally hopeless!:-(how much better are the systems today?

[megan]

how much better are the systems todayMuch, much better. In the days being talked about helicopters with rescue facilities were very, very few, in fact helicopters in general were very few. Today we have many around the country with the facilities and highly trained crews able to perform rescue work, they feature almost daily on the news performing their good works.

[LeadSled]

how much better are the systems today?
Folks,
Once such matters were taken out of the hands of Airservices and handed to AMSA, there has been huge improvement, but it was a lot of work to get there, and non-AMSA bureaucratic artificial obstacles in Canberra did not help.
I never cease to be amazed that the "Princes of Process" cannot grasp the idea that getting to job done (particularly where life is at stake) takes, or should take, precedence over "the imperative of approve process"..
Tootle pip!!

[compressor stall]

PS: did you work out what was wrong with the 210?

Nope, mentioned it to the (well respected) engineer / owner. He said it did the same thing about 6 months before, but hadn't since. I flew another few hundred hours in her and she never missed a beat again.

[growahead]

Regarding the ditching of WJC. There is little doubt that the R (rescue) part of the SAR action could have been handled a lot better. That was 36 years ago, and most people today won’t understand how primitive facilities were at that time. No GPS, few helicopters, commiunications were limited ( 727s would go HF a few hundred kms west of Brisbane). The SAR team could have done better. Many of the SARMCs were ex wartime pilots, some were really smart and competent guys, and frequently conducted successful SAR missions. So, one bad effort, but many very good efforts as well. I think it’s offensive to make out that the DCA and later SAR people were generally poor performers.
So SAR was a ballsup in this event; what about other players, the pilot? WJC was approaching half way across the strait, and reported a low fuel indication, and quickly decided to ditch whilst he still had power. Think about that: floating around Bass Strait, about maximum distance from land, midwinter, with survival chances practically nil (it was amazing that the F27 managed to find the location, considering nav aids at the time). I remember that day very clearly, a screaming N/NW wind was blowing, the aircraft was only 60 nm or so from Devonport. I have always wondered why they didn’t immediately turn towards DPO. If they in fact did run out of noise, they would have been a lot closer to help, and they would have bought more time for assistance to be arranged. Why would one choose to go for a swim with survival chances minimum to practically nil, when the engines were still running, and may have made it to a relatively close suitable runway?
We’ll never know, but I’m pretty sure there was more than one ballsup on that day.

[megan]

few helicoptersHow many helicopters do you want? We had ten sitting at Longford. No GPS certainly, can't recall now when we installed our private LORAN chain, but we were well practised in over water DR, in any event we had the ability to home on the F-27 transmissions and use of NDB, VOR, DME, weather radar which was quite good at picking up airborne targets such as the F-27. From the report.Although there is no certainty that the projected missions would in practice have been flown as shown, it gives a useful comparison of alternative actions and indicates that timely use of one of the Longford helicopters might have resulted in successful rescue action.The decision to not check the availability of rescue helicopters other than NSC and PVFis considered to have been an error of judgement.The SARMC was by far the best informed of the Melbourne RCC personnel regarding the normal capabilities and likely response times of various organisations in the area. This seems to have proved a distinct disadvantage in this case, in that he depended on his knowledge and experience of the typical situation rather than checking on actual availability at the time.

Had the available resources been employed in a more effective manner, his rescue may have been successful.

[cooperplace]

Folks,
Once such matters were taken out of the hands of Airservices and handed to AMSA, there has been huge improvement, but it was a lot of work to get there, and non-AMSA bureaucratic artificial obstacles in Canberra did not help.
I never cease to be amazed that the "Princes of Process" cannot grasp the idea that getting to job done (particularly where life is at stake) takes, or should take, precedence over "the imperative of approve process"..
Tootle pip!!

It's an interesting commentary on the nature of bureaucracy. It was easier to start a brand new agency (AMSA) than to change the culture of Airservices enough for them to do rescue stuff efficiently. Despite Airservices, on the face of it, being knowledgeable about matters of aviation. I guess no-one here will be surprised by that.

[mickjoebill]

Spent aerial filming career in Europe, so not familiar with offshore flying in Oz.
Survival suits don’t appear to be standard issue for these overwater jaunts?


mjb

[megan]

Survival suits don’t appear to be standard issue for these overwater jaunts?Unheard of, oil industry operator was of the belief, erroneously, that folk could be rescued before hypothermia would raise its head. Logistics, and more importantly cost, seemed to put the kibosh on any suggestion of supplying suits. If you look at the report on the Wessex ditching linked earlier it says,Even though they were in the water for no more than 25 minutes there is evidence to suggest that symptoms of hypothermia were beginning to set inAnd that was in December, summer time.

[LeadSled]

It's an interesting commentary on the nature of bureaucracy. It was easier to start a brand new agency (AMSA) than to change the culture of Airservices enough for them to do rescue stuff efficiently. Despite Airservices, on the face of it, being knowledgeable about matters of aviation. I guess no-one here will be surprised by that.
cooperplace,
Interesting comment.
My view --- it was easier to do other than try to change the "culture of Airservices" ---- and AMSA was hardly new.
Having had quite considerable experience of both, it always surprised me just how different the two organisations manifested themselves --- the only thing they has in common was the postcode 2601.
Tootle Pip!!

[Squawk7700]

They perform very different roles, you only have to look at the JD’s and mission statements to see that.

Leadsled, you should put up your resume on here some time soon. I don’t know how you found the time to do all of these things in your life!

[ACMS]

Survival suits.......ha ha they probably weren’t even wearing the life jacket.......

Engine failure at 4,000’ and you’d not have any time to don the life jacket either......good luck trying in the dark cold water.....

DEAD.

[NaFenn]

Having done the run to Kangaroo Island many times myself in the same aircraft... its nothing out of the ordinary. I have also taken Socata Tobagos across the Spencer and St Vincent gulfs at night, with life jackets on. Almost all of the KI runs from Parafield done by FTA are IFR, with life jackets worn (Company requirement due to the approaches at Adelaide that normally start/end a flight) under constant surveillance by ATC.

Not once have I been concerned about taking a single engine aircraft of that type over water, they are maintained to a very high standard - and I am only aware of one aircraft with the same engine type having engine issues within that company in the last 5 years (Rough running). In the words of my old instructor: "The aircraft doesn't know it's over water... It's no more likely to fail over water than over land"

[ACMS]

Yes yes hasn’t happened in the past so we’ll be ok Jack......sure you run with that plan whilst the vast majority of older guys chose to find a better way...

[LeadSled]

They perform very different roles, you only have to look at the JD’s and mission statements to see that.

Leadsled, you should put up your resume on here some time soon. I don’t know how you found the time to do all of these things in your life!



Squawk7700,
On the first point, I don't really think Airservices do much of a job in their primary mission. As for their days of search and rescue, the less said, the better.
Fortunately not all organisations in Canberra have a "culture" like Airservices, CASA or the ATO.
As for the second, you can cover a lot of ground in your time if you don't spend it all in the pub, for me now around sixty years.
Tootle pip!!

[mostlytossas]

FTA train mainly commercial pilots for the airline industry. One would imagine therefore the policy whether official or otherwise would be to train the students for the reality of life in the workplace. That is to fly the route in the shortest and quickest way possible. If the student can't cope with that then better to find out early so to save the student and/ or his sponsoring employer money by culling him/her from the course.
After all can you imagine any commercial employer putting up with the following scenario..The task is to fly a say C210 Parafield to Pt Lincoln to collect fresh oysters for export to Middle East. The pilot elects to fly the safest route being always within gliding range of land. This would take him north to Pt Germain ( north of Port Pirie), across the Spencer Gulf to Point Lowly, then down the east coast of Eyre Peninsular. Twice the distance at least to the direct route. How long do you reckon that pilot would last in that job?
Different if you are flying privately of course. Then you have the luxury of deciding your route as you are the one paying for it.
The only advantage aviation has over surface transport is speed of delivery. This is due to the ability to travel in straight lines, and the speed aircraft can fly at.
The reality of life so get used to it.

[cooperplace]

Some statements here seem to be personally directed. You know what they say: "play the ball not the man".

[cooperplace]

A few years ago I saw an R22 flying across to KI, and I thought, not for me. But people fly R22s across the English Channel. Some people are strong believers in 'the engine doesn't know....". At least on the KI trip they could in principle at all points glide to land if above about 8000'.

[ACMS]

ACMS, we get it - you aren't a fan.

If you have a such an issue with it, rather than start a public forum with the 'I'm right, you're wrong' mentality, try taking it up with the regulator. That type of narrow-minded thinking is what has put us back in the dark ages in GA in the first place. In fact, I dare say it would be well received - you'd fit right in.


Sure mate, you’ve heard the saying.......”There’s old Pilot and there’s bold Pilots.......but there’s no old bold Pilots”

Seems appropriate to me.

There’s ways to mitigate unnecessary risk and they didn’t bother at all.

After 40 years flying I’ve learnt there’s things that aren’t worth the risk......

All the best to you as well.

[josephfeatherweight]

At least on the KI trip they could in principle at all points glide to land if above about 8000'.
Really? In an R22?
*Genuine question, as I didn't know choppers could glide that far!!

[cooperplace]

I know zip about choppers of course, but in the R22 POH it says that best glide is "about 4:1 or one nautical mile per 1500' AGL"
https://robinsonheli.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/r22_poh_full_book.pdf

[ACMS]

I know zip about choppers of course, but in the R22 POH it says that best glide is "about 4:1 or one nautical mile per 1500' AGL"
https://robinsonheli.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/r22_poh_full_book.pdf

Which is basically a slightly aerodynamic brick.

The average Light Aircraft would be around 11:1 or so......

The Robbie would need to be at FL230 to be able to glide to the nearest land PF direct to KI.....!! ( at the worst point about 15nm from land )

A C-172 only 8,000’ to glide to land at the worst point on that direct track.

[cooperplace]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. When I fly to KI, I cross at the narrowest point of Backstairs Passage: from vicinity Blowhole Beach to Cuttlefish Bay, about 8.5 miles. I assume 10:1 in the jab @ 65 KIAS, so over 6000' gives something of a safety margin. For the R22 (which of course I know nothing about), that crossing, at 6000' gives v little safety margin. Above that, a bit more.