What is the percentage of commercial pilots trained by foreign schools in Australia

[Dick Smith]

Here is an interesting one. I’m told that foreign owned schools do the majority of pilot training. Of course I realise the Air Force pilots are trained by a foreign owned company but I’m wondering about other commercial pilots.

Does anyone have any approximate figures?

I’m asking this question because while I think the Swiss are best at building watches, and Asia is the best at building electronics, I would have thought that Australian owned businesses could be the best at flight training.

I’m told that more and more of the commercial pilot flight training is being taken over by foreign entities. This means all the profit and wealth generated goes overseas.

[Clare Prop]

If there is profit and wealth then why don't you start a Dick Smith brand Aussie flying school?

[GAnoob]

Of course I realise the Air Force pilots are trained by a foreign owned company but I’m wondering about other commercial pilots.



You sure about that, Dick?

[glenb]

Hi Dick,
I think you will find it very difficult to extract that information, but here is something for consideration. I had a flying school located at Moorabbin Airport doing approximately 8,000 hours per annum. I remember discussions with Oxford CAE and they were doing almost 90,000 hours and forecasting a 50% increase he following year. From that it would be reasonable to deduce that of the other half a dozen schools at Moorabbin combined, we wouldn't equal those hours.

Similarly if you go to every capital city Perth (China Southern/Singapore Flying College, then shoot over to Adelaide (FTA) or NSW (CAE Tamworth and Port Macquarie (previously Johnsons). These larger organisations are foreign owned and probably account for half of the flying in the respective states.

Consider that TVSA in Victoria, the new Mildura operation, Amintas business, Pearsons at Essendon etc, all sold out to Chinese Interests.

There really can be little doubt that over half the training is delivered by foreign owned Companies.

[buckshot1777]

They may be "foreign owned", but are they employing local instructors, CP, support staff and management, have their aircraft serviced locally etc?

[Slezy9]

Of course I realise the Air Force pilots are trained by a foreign owned company.

This may have been partially true in the past, however now all airborne instruction and the vast majority of ground instruction is provided by the RAAF. Not sure you can get a more "Australian Owned" company.

[Dick Smith]

What then is the $1. 2 billion Lockheed Martin contract for?

[Dick Smith]

Buckshot. Aldi also employ Aussies but they are Australia’s most profitable supermarket with all the profits going to two highly secretive Germans!

They are the smartest and most ruthless business people around!

[Slezy9]

What then is the $1. 2 billion Lockheed Martin contract for?
Aircraft maintenance and a bunch of other stuff. But no actual instruction.

[WannaBeBiggles]

I would have thought that Australian owned businesses could be the best at flight training.

Care to qualify that statement?

Are you saying that the 10's of thousands of pilot trained overseas every year are somehow inferior? Or just that somehow if the ownership is Australian the quality of training would somehow be better?

[RogerRamjet01]

My understanding from my years spent teaching overseas students in foreign owned schools is that they send their students here because of the relatively uncluttered airspace and significant periods of suitable weather. Quality of training doesn't feature foremost (and has taken a nosedive in the last few years because of the loss of experienced instructors to other endeavours).

[buckshot1777]

Buckshot. Aldi also employ Aussies but they are Australia’s most profitable supermarket with all the profits going to two highly secretive Germans! And if Aldi along with Amazon etc. and those flying schools weren't here, all the Aussies involved would be unemployed.

[Wizofoz]

Love it when someone who got rich from capitalism has to face the consequences of capitalism.

Also, where does this jingoistic idea that Australians are the best at flight training come from?

[wishiwasupthere]

Dey terk er jerbs!

[junior.VH-LFA]

Unlike you DS to fire off both barrels about the RAAF doing something without having the facts!

[Dick Smith]

It sounds as if they are making money out of training which was my very point. Why can’t an Aussie company do that? See these links:

https://australianaviation.com.au/2015/12/new-raaf-pilot-training-contract-signed/

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/australia-signs-training-contract-with-lockheed-led-419859/

[Dick Smith]

Wizofoz you are totally wrong. I don’t have to face any “consequences of capitalism”. I’m well off and can afford anything they throw at me. I’m concerned about typical Aussies.

Buckshot1777, fortunately Australians don’t eat more food because Aldi is here. Aldi has a formula of not sharing the wealth – that is, they spend about 4% of their turnover on staff, compared with 8% spent by the normal supermarkets. Aldi is not only our most profitable retailer, it is also the most trusted. They will get more and more money. The only way Coles, Woolworths and IGA will be able to compete is to sack Australians.

It is what I call “extreme capitalism”. As we get to the limits of growth it starts to work only for the wealthy. We now have 96 billionaires who have doubled their wealth in five years, whilst typical Aussies have hardly kept up with inflation.

[Icarus2001]

Aldi also employ Aussies but they are Australia’s most profitable supermarket with all the profits going to two highly secretive Germans!

So with only 13% of the market they are the MOST profitable? R i g h t.

This may seem off topic but it goes to show once again how much rubbish you post. If you cannot get basic facts right then why would anyone believe what you post here in relation to aviation?
What does it matter if the owners are secretive?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/727x508/7234b_974462e4b4e165e50e0520246a5f74c2d39889f6.png

[Dick Smith]

Icarus2001, you seem a bit angry. Is that why you post anonymously?

Regarding Aldi being the most profitable, I’m simply repeating a claim which is regularly made in the financial sections of newspapers. I would imagine they are referring not to gross profits but to profit as a percentage of turnover.

It is important about owners being secretive. Capitalism, to succeed, requires trust from everyone and minimum extremes of wealth. The Aldi owners (Karl Albrecht Jnr and Beate Heister), are worth $40 billion. They are not known as philanthropists but they are known to be “highly secretive”.

They will have an immense influence here in Australia. I have always predicted they will be incredibly successful because they only have half the overheads regarding employing Australians.

They are also not on the stock exchange so they don’t have that overhead. Of course, Woolies, Coles and IGA have to share their wealth with all Australians through super funds and shares.

You have probably seen what has happened in France. The same thing will start to happen here in Australia because the billionaires have doubled their wealth in five years, whilst most Australians have possibly just kept up with inflation.

[TempoTCu]

So with only 13% of the market they are the MOST profitable? R i g h t.


Just a quick comment here... profit is unrelated to market share.

[JustinHeywood]

.... Woolies, Coles and IGA have to share their wealth with all Australians through super funds and shares.

you make it seem like Coles/Woolies are some kind of charity Dick!
Before Aldi, our supermarket duopoly screwed their suppliers at one end and the customers at the other.
Although I’m disappointed that it was Aldi and not some local entrepreneur who stirred up this cosy arrangement, I am nevertheless glad that someone did.

[thorn bird]

Er???? sorry I thought this blog was about aviation not a slanging match between the loony left against capitalism.
They lost the election people, get over it.

[JustinHeywood]

.... Woolies, Coles and IGA have to share their wealth with all Australians through super funds and shares.

you make it seem like Coles/Woolies are some kind of charity Dick!
Before Aldi, our supermarket duopoly screwed their suppliers at one end and the customers at the other.
Although I’m disappointed that it was Aldi and not some local entrepreneur who stirred up this cosy arrangement, I am nevertheless glad that someone did.

[Icarus2001]

Sorry the thread drift was my fault. Just pointing out Dick has form, in case there is anyone left who does not know.
Yes, we, that is Australia, could and should supply flying training to the world. On that you are correct Dick.

[bafanguy]

Would 22,000 be considered a suitable expression of interest in the context of Australia alone ?:

Qantas has named Flight Training Adelaide (FTA) as the new training provider for its pilot academy at Wellcamp Airport in Toowoomba, west of Brisbane.

“More than 22,000 people have so far registered their interest in the Academy so we expect there to be some exceptional talent amongst them putting their hand up to commence their pilot training.”

https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/05/qantas-partners-with-flight-training-adelaide-for-wellcamp-academy/

[dr dre]

Would 22,000 be considered a suitable expression of interest in the context of Australia alone ?:

Qantas has named Flight Training Adelaide (FTA) as the new training provider for its pilot academy at Wellcamp Airport in Toowoomba, west of Brisbane.

“More than 22,000 people have so far registered their interest in the Academy so we expect there to be some exceptional talent amongst them putting their hand up to commence their pilot training.”

https://australianaviation.com.au/2019/05/qantas-partners-with-flight-training-adelaide-for-wellcamp-academy/

And FTA are owned by a Hong Kong based company. Hong Kong of course being part of China.

I wonder if more headlines will appear denouncing the "Chinese Takeover of Pilot Training" in Australia soon?

[thorn bird]

and I wonder if the Irishman see's an opportunity to cash in on the HEC's fees available for pilot training?

[Dick Smith]

Are you sure FTA is foreign owned?

Who are the primary shareholders?

[Cloudee]

Are you sure FTA is foreign owned?

Who are the primary shareholders?
From their web site.
”We are located at Parafield Airport (http://www.flyfta.com/?page_id=92), South Australia (http://www.southaustralia.com/index.aspx). The college started operations in 1982 and over the years has had a number of corporate owners, including Hawker de Havilland and BAE SYSTEMS. In 2005 the college was purchased by Hong Kong-based Young Brothers Aviation.”

[Dick Smith]

I note the Domicile is the British Virgin Islands.

Seems a a long way away for a Hong Kong company.

No. I am not criticising. Just making a comment.

Sadly the wealth creation goes out out of our country. I feel for our grand kids.

The Aussie owned flight schools of any decent size seem to have disappeared. They claim it’s not possible to be successful under to CASA requirements

[junior.VH-LFA]

Does FTA not operate under CASA requirements?

[WannaBeBiggles]

Dick, I don't disagree with you about the fact that large foreign companies come here, make a profit and filter that back overseas. Last time I checked that's what a successful company does, makes money.

What it does illustrate is that individuals are greedy, they make themselves wealthy with little to no regard for the country.

If I may quote someone who sold their company to an "Australian" company whose majority shareholders are from overseas, including Hong Kong.
I’m well off and can afford anything they throw at me.

[Dick Smith]

Wanna. Not sure what you are implying. I sold one company to Woolworths and another to Fairfax.

I am am not opposed to a seller getting the highest price. Just pointing out that most of the Aviation industry is going to overseas hands.

Fortunately with Qantas the majority of the shares must remain Aussie owned by legislation.
If that did not exist they would be foreign owned in an instant.

We have now now lost the 10 tv network- more will follow!

[Nulli Secundus]

Dick Smith, surely it's impossible for you to remain credible with a position such as this? Time now for you to face again your conflicted views? Time again for the viewers to form an opinion on whether you can be considered consistent and logical? Let's take a look at where you really stand on all of this.

You think your 'foreign owned schools sending the wealth and profits overseas' is an interesting one, how's this for a quietly omitted detail? Dick Smith Electronics opened stores in Hong Kong and the USA. Notwithstanding the stores may not have been profitable, the intention clearly was to make profit. That's ok, we're all fine with that. Was the plan to leave the profits in Hong Kong, Dick? Offshore the money? Maybe. It would be a business decision of course, and provided not unlawful, you could go right ahead. Ultimately though, profits generally return to the country of shareholder origin. You know that Dick.

Was it acceptable for DSE to aim to be profitable and aim to return profits to Australia? If it now happens that a foreign company does the same to Australia, it’s not ok? Is that your position Dick Smith? Please answer to dispel the conflicted position.

So why is the money coming from overseas to buy up Australian flying schools? You know this one also Dick. Could it be Australian money likes the biggest gig in town - yep, you got it, its property. Dick now you're out of publishing, out of grocery retail, out of electronics - how is commercial property returning for you? You made this a public position. From an overseas perspective, the more money you park in a safe, regulated, reliable offshore market the better. The buy price is not really the issue. Basic business - preserve your capital - ala commercial property!

So the question now is, why should anyone not view your opinions as highly conflicted and illogical? Is it still correct that from your perspective we should all get out of aviation before its too late, but only the strugglers? If it’s best to be out, why are you so actively interested in an industry you wish to see decline, and actively encourage so?

Given you've challenged a PPRUNE member in this thread to explain a link between his or her perceived anger and a desire to remain anonymous, is there a significance as to why you write mostly in the first person, about yourself, about your accolades, about your personal communications and most of all, use your own name? After all, this is a commentary forum intended for anonymity. You seem forever interested in self-promotion? Maybe that's just my perception.

[Dick Smith]

No conflict at all.

Its all about balance.

The Pratt family are heroes of mine because they do a little to redress the imbalance.

When we own some flying schools in China I will make positive comments.

Nulli. I can see why you post anonymously.

[Nulli Secundus]

Dick Smith, c'mon, too light on detail. Well actually, there's no detail. You can do better than that. Here are the questions again:

Time now for you to face again your conflicted views? Time again for the viewers to form an opinion on whether you can be considered consistent and logical?
Was the plan to leave the profits in Hong Kong, Dick? Offshore the money?
Was it acceptable for DSE to aim to be profitable and aim to return profits to Australia? If it now happens that a foreign company does the same to Australia, it’s not ok?
Is it still correct that from your perspective we should all get out of aviation before its too late, but only the strugglers? If it’s best to be out, why are you so actively interested in an industry you wish to see decline, and actively encourage so?
In view of a member's decision to remain anonymous, is there a significance as to why you write mostly in the first person, about yourself, about your accolades, about your personal communications and most of all, use your own name?
And one supplementary, why exactly is it that I (well, actually almost all of us) choose to post anonymously?

Why should anyone not view your opinions as highly conflicted and illogical?

[wishiwasupthere]

Is it any different from somebody buying cheap goods from overseas (say, electronic goods from China), repackaging them, then reselling them in Australia at an inflated price?

[Dick Smith]

Yep. A major difference.

The majority of wealth stays in Australia.

Nulli. -Every person I know would have conflicting views if we used your formula.

My major failure was not to be able to bring in the important cost cutting reforms at CASA.

Those who write to me in desperate financial situations in Aviation are the group I advise to get out before they lose everything. There is another thread which covers this very well.

Nulli. You clearly do not understand that I believe Globalisation only works when there is a balance - that clearly does not exist at the present time.

If CASA was to look at cost and not be forced to make safety the MOST IMPORTANT consideration there could be changes and GA could boom again.

[LTBC]

If CASA was to look at cost and not be forced to make safety the MOST IMPORTANT consideration there could be changes and GA could boom again.

CASA hasn't been a barrier to entry for all these large international training organisations. The rules might not be particularly stimulating for GA businesses in general, but it's still a level playing field and there's nothing stopping an Australian organisation (any more than an International one) from starting a large local flight school.

However, I can think of one recent opportunity for a large Australian aviation company to obtain a direct presence in local flight training that was disappointingly, but not unexpectedly outsourced to a foreign contractor.

[Clare Prop]

Dick, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and invest in an Australian flying school? Oh that's right...we should all be walking away.

If CASA was there only problem there would be NO flying schools in Australia.

What percentage of Australian CPLs who are going to fly here are trained at Australian owned flying schools?

[Dick Smith]

Clare. I would need to be certified if I attempted that.

Look at the current thread about a person who gave it a go!

[AerocatS2A]

Clare. I would need to be certified if I attempted that.

Look at the current thread about a person who gave it a go!
And yet the foreign companies manage it. Is that because they are better at running a flight training business than an Australian company?

[LeadSled]

Folks,
There is a large degree of unrealistic train of thought, here, when it comes to dealing with CASA.

It is NOT a level playing field, and the tilt only starts with CASA being reluctant to take on anybody who is large and well funded, particularly if they are NOT an Australian operation.

It goes well beyond just lawyers at 10 paces, CASA are very wary of Qantas, for example, because Qantas lawyers, over the years, have proved to be more effective than CASA lawyers, not because Qantas owns CASA.

Not flying training, but one example from a little while ago involving an airworthiness matter involving US certified aircraft, and CASA making life difficult, "because they could"..

An approach to the aviation liaison at the US Embassy in Canberra, and in the blink of an eye (in public service terms), Foreign Affairs is onto "the Department" ----- demanding explanations from US State Department complaint about Australia (aka CASA) violating an Australia/US aviation treaty ---- citing deliberate bureaucratic obstruction as restraint of trade, contrary to WTO rules.

And that is exactly what was going on!!

Needless to say, CASA pulled their collective head in, quick fast, but, as always, nobody took responsibility in CASA (responsibility ---what;s that??) and the poor sodding business might have won the battle, but the war went on until a change of DAS/CEO.

Tootle pip!!

PS: Dick, My memory tells that Citic, a HK based company nominally, but Beijing controlled, is at the end of the daisy chain of who owns FTA. If it is not Citic, it is one of several very similar companies.

[jonkster]

My 2c based on gut feel...

I don't think flying training schools have ever been a great way to make a lot of money even when economic times were better.

I don't believe overseas companies are training here to make money on the training side - they have a need for pilots trained the way they want and are looking for a return on investment later, by feeding in pilots they need, the return is not on the initial training itself

In Oz, I think there is still a market for good operators who provide quality customer focused training and they don't have to be big either - you won't make a fortune but will make a living and if you enjoy that sort of work, that is why you would persist doing it.

The big issue is training and retaining good instructors, instructors are a big investment and many instructors are looking further down the runway than a career in instructing (which is fair enough). Good instructors and a well run business are what matters, get that together and the business has a good chance.

It would be great to see people coming out of airline careers thinking of maybe giving a bit back at the end of their careers feeding back into the system as instructors but I also understand many are a bit over it by then, sadly. Such people would offer great mentoring to newcomers but can understand why they want to retire quietly.

Not sure the large sausage factory, cookie cutter schools ever really have a long term viability, too dependent on economic conditions - when the 'pilot shortage' phase of the inevitable boom/bust aviation cycle collapses they tend to be too cumbersome to scale back.

Smaller operators who offer good value or specialised/niche training (I think) will be around for a while to come. They are not in it to make their fortune - they enjoy and are proud of what they do.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Flying Schools must be fabulously profitable.
https://www.superyachtfan.com/yacht-ambrosia.html
What's the chance of CASA taking on these guys??
Tootle pip!!

[LeadSled]

My 2c based on gut feel...
It would be great to see people coming out of airline careers thinking of maybe giving a bit back at the end of their careers feeding back into the system as instructors but I also understand many are a bit over it by then, sadly. Such people would offer great mentoring to newcomers but can understand why they want to retire quietly.
.
jonkster,
Do you have any idea how thoroughly the CASA system discourages the use of such experience??
Very few well experienced and qualified older pilots will put up with the bulldust from the amateurs in CASA. Indeed, very few well qualified and experienced pilots who join CASA in their latter years as FOIs last very long, for the same reason.
In contrast to the US/FAA, where, in certain forms of advanced training, the instructor does not even need a current medical.
Tootle pip!!

[jonkster]

jonkster,
Do you have any idea how thoroughly the CASA system discourages the use of such experience??


having seen the results of a recent CASA audit that found safety breaches requiring immediate rectification that included someone having left written "Instrument Renewal" on a whiteboard rather than "Instrument Proficiency Check"... yes I do.

Sadly.

[plotplot]

the return is not on the initial training itself

The fact that you can now go from ab-initio through to MEA-IR for a six figure Fee HELP debt - and there are still currently at least 22,000 kids ready to tick it up - says otherwise.

Not sure the large sausage factory, cookie cutter schools ever really have a long term viability, too dependent on economic conditions - when the 'pilot shortage' phase of the inevitable boom/bust aviation cycle collapses they tend to be too cumbersome to scale back.

Pre Fee-HELP times maybe... The government will have to stop handing out money for their model not to be viable. Instead they continue to increase the loan cap.

Side note; I love how people jump at the opportunity to take dodgy personal swipes at an outspoken public figure. The fact that Dick comes on here to converse with you plebs says that maybe he does give a hoot about the little guys. And still your insults roll off his back.

[Jabberwocky82]

Good to see the Tall Poppy Syndrome is alive and well.

[dr dre]

Not sure the large sausage factory, cookie cutter schools ever really have a long term viability, too dependent on economic conditions - when the 'pilot shortage' phase of the inevitable boom/bust aviation cycle collapses they tend to be too cumbersome to scale back.


I think the larger schools would have a better chance of surviving in the long term than the smaller ones.

But as an aside, why do so many people denigrate large "sausage factory, cookie cutter etc" flying training schools? The big employers want pilots trained to strict SOP's, who have come through structured, standardised training with a lot of oversight and who all have roughly the same way of thinking and tackling problems. They want a fairly standard product at the end.

What I'd be very wary of is a pilots trained at smaller schools where one instructor could teach radically different methods based on personal preferences to each other and nothing the employers want.

[LeadSled]

I think the larger schools would have a better chance of surviving in the long term than the smaller ones.

But as an aside, why do so many people denigrate large "sausage factory, cookie cutter etc" flying training schools? The big employers want pilots trained to strict SOP's, who have come through structured, standardised training with a lot of oversight and who all have roughly the same way of thinking and tackling problems. They want a fairly standard product at the end.

What I'd be very wary of is a pilots trained at smaller schools where one instructor could teach radically different methods based on personal preferences to each other and nothing the employers want.

dr dree,
You are part right, part wrong, these days, the output of all schools (with several honourable exception) regardless of size, is distinctly ordinary -- I could say, not entirely facetiously, that "stick and rudder" skills are now optional.
Tootle pip!!