China Southern A380 -- Hail damage to radome, cockpit windows, leading edge surfaces

[Eboy]

"On the 26th of May 2019, a China Southern Airlines Airbus A380 encountered a nasty hail storm, causing significant damage to the radome, cockpit windows and leading edge surfaces. The aircraft, registered B-6140, was performing flight CZ3101 from Guangzhou to Beijing and was cruising at 37,100ft when it entered a nasty weather system."

https://samchui.com/2019/05/27/china-southern-airlines-airbus-a380-receives-significant-hail-damage/ (https://samchui.com/2019/05/27/china-southern-airlines-airbus-a380-receives-significant-hail-damage/?utm_source=BoardingArea&utm_medium=twitter#.XOv4z9NKjaY)

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x750/china_southern_airbus_a380_hail_damage_cockpit_61fa5b49d97ab dd6692e0e581273de161df4de67.jpg

[BluSdUp]

There is already a thread on scraping the A380.
Is this the " How to" thread?

[Hotel Tango]

I just wonder if it was avoidable? Then again I seem to remember reading that even wx track deviations were not always easy in that part of the world. Is that true?

[safelife]

Often not approved.
Because only the airways themselves are civilian airspace, so diversion off track means coordination with military ATC will be necessary.
The trick is to tell them you'll be holding on the airway, waiting for their clearance to avoid weather.
Either they provide it or eventually the cell will move off the airway...

[mach92]

You take enough gas to fly 2 hours around weather OR in your best Mandarin you tell them I am going left or right.

[Jack330]

There is already a thread on scraping the A380.
Is this the " How to" thread?
hahahahaha 😂😂

[swh]

Often not approved.
Because only the airways themselves are civilian airspace, so diversion off track means coordination with military ATC will be necessary.
The trick is to tell them you'll be holding on the airway, waiting for their clearance to avoid weather.
Either they provide it or eventually the cell will move off the airway...

ATC are not obligated anywhere to approve Wx deviation “requests”. If you request, and the request is disapproved, declare PAN PAN, and make the deviation. ATC will then approve you. Civil airspace is limited in China, ATC have their hands tied until you use the magic words PAN PAN.

No need for enroute holding, doing something like that will just result in a requirement to descend down low until you have no fuel left.

The hail damage is more likely due to people not being able to use a Wx radar properly.

[flysmiless]

Hailstones shatter an Airbus A380's windscreen at 37,000ft, forcing the pilot to issue a mayday call.
The China Southern Airlines flight from Guangzhou Baiyun Int'l was en-route to Beijing Int'l when the pilot issued a mayday call.

[DDDriver]

Pictures look suitably dramatic, definitely makes your day "interesting". Well done to crew for managing the situation to a positive conclusion.

https://twitter.com/rain_wutaotao/status/1132524358331535360

[fab777]

Hail can be found several thousand feet ABOVE CBs, and does not show on radar.

[physicus]

...which is why we deviate > 40NM UPWIND of appreciable cells... and with the 3D WXR in the 380 there really is no excuse for not having seen what's brewing in the bottom, even if the top doesn't paint (which is normal). This is not likely excusable in cruise. Different story in an approach/departure situation.

And here's the corresponding satellite imagery and flight path at 2:50 UTC:
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/891x993/b13_csn3101_2019_05_26_02_50_00_f3f068d576daed9411af11b84b4f 5f2f978e71e1.png
and at UT 3:00:
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/891x993/b13_csn3101_2019_05_26_03_00_00_0d26a2d758b01b1be05c7c469439 b966984fe9ee.png
and at 03:10 UTC:
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/891x993/b13_csn3101_2019_05_26_03_10_00_7ecb86641651bd274edad8e63f30 af7011cf7dfb.png

[giggitygiggity]

I don't fly in China so I don't know what the repercussions are for deviating from clearance, but if they won't clear you to avoid a CB, surely you just do it and let them deal with it? Chuck-in a Mayday if you like as it will be recorded, 'Mayday Mayday Mayday, xxx123 turning left heading 080 to avoid weather' and save yourself rather than wreck an aircraft or destroy one to the point it's unflyable.

If the repercussions are such that they'd shoot you down for deviating from a clearance, and you think it's acceptable to fly through that airspace with that knowledge, then you really aren't worth your stripes.

[Maisk Rotum]

Would it were that easy. You patently don’t operate in Chinese airspace very often if at all. Yes. Mayday call. And all the ****e that comes afterwards. Chinese airspace is the most obstructive and unhelpful in the world.
Give me India any day..at least they are trying their level best to accommodate you as opposed to trying to kill you.

XYZ123 require weather deviation right 20 miles.
ATC. Unable
XYZ123 I say again due weather we require 20miles right.
ATC. Unable.
Panpan Panpan Panpan XYZ123 due weather deviating right 20 miles.

Simple. Fill out the paperwork later rather than trash an airframe or spiral out of a Cb.

Yes I do fly in China.
Hope you're not my pilot Globo

[slate100]

Which is it?

Avoid possible hail by 40 NM upwind or 20 NM upwind?

[pineteam]

I never had big issue for weather avoidance in China airspace but in some airways you can only dodge the weather on one side which can be quite frustrating. They will happily make you fly 100 miles left of track when only 10 miles right would be enough but due to the tension with Taiwan or Military activities ... “CAN NOT!” Not ATC fault, they just follow orders.
Some ATC like Guangzhou have weather radar and will vector you around the weather without asking your opinion.

[Pilot DAR]

Discussion on topic, not about ATC and routing in China please.....

[giggitygiggity]

Would it were that easy. You patently don’t operate in Chinese airspace very often if at all. Yes. Mayday call. And all the ****e that comes afterwards. Chinese airspace is the most obstructive and unhelpful in the world.
Give me India any day..at least they are trying their level best to accommodate you as opposed to trying to kill you.

I said I don’t fly in China. Perhaps re-read my message. So you’d rather trash an airframe and endanger your passengers than deal with the ‘****e’ that comes after a mayday call. You shouldn’t be flying if you’re afraid to make a safety call because involves paperwork/explanation.

You might prefer to fly in India, that’s fine. But if China is too dangerous to fly through then you shouldn’t be doing it.

[giggitygiggity]

Discussion on topic, not about ATC and routing in China please.....
Is discussing Chinese atc breaking some pprune rule? That is clearly on topic. People are wondering whether they flew through a CB because they couldn’t get clearance around a a CB, as apart from negligence, there is no other possible reason they wouldn’t avoid a CB. How is that off topic moderator? Of course that is speculation, but if you were to ban speculation, then this RUMOUR forum would be pretty empty?!

[fatbus]

Let's see - A) paperwork for simple WX deviation ( pan ) , if any , or B) paperwork explaining serious damage to airframe ?

[Pilot DAR]

How is that off topic moderator?

It's not so much off topic, just posters were getting rather rude to each other, and demeaning ATC. Contribute to the topic, and don't knock the other poster.

[Cool banana]

China is an ICAO member country. The ICAO indicates in Annex 2 that the PIC has final authority for safety of the aircraft and if he determines any actions are under urgent or emergency circumstances, either by a Pan Pan or an Mayday call, then ATC is to provide assistance and has no authority to override the PIC.

Get the aircraft safely to the destination and deal with any diplomatic problems on the ground. I'm sure any Airline would have stood behind their pilots had they deviated due to weather.

Just ask Delta who retired a severally damaged Boeing 744 after a similar hail storm incident a few years ago.

https://www.bizjournals.com › 2015/06/30Web resultsHail pummels Delta's N664US Boeing 747; NWA's "Spirit of Beijing" may face scrapyard (Photos) - Minneapolis / St. Paul Business Journal - The Business Journals (https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/news/2015/06/30/hail-pummels-delta-747-over-china-nwas-spirit-of.html)

[CurtainTwitcher]

So, again. Why are you redacting posts. ? Who are you frightened of. ? Or do you need the advertising?
PPRuNE isn't a democracy buddy, it's a commercial operation with considerable financial costs, legal liability and risk.

You are perfectly entitled to take the financial risk & personal liability and have a warts and all discussion by setting up your own forum if you don't like it. Until then we are stuck with what the moderators give us.

[OK4Wire]

No problem with that, Curtain, but be open about it.

[CurtainTwitcher]

No problem with that, Curtain, but be open about it.
Ah, they do with a sticky thread in R&N right at the top Notice regarding post responsibility and anonymity (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/notice-regarding-post-responsibility-anonymity-252.html)
27th Nov 2012 until 6th Feb 2106
NOTICE: You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Recent high-profile defamation events illustrate that there are ways in which third parties can force personal data, including contents of personal messages, to be released by bulletin board owners. Be careful - libelous/defamatory posts can and have landed members in legal hot water. PPRuNe will not guarantee your anonymity in such situations.

What constitutes libelous/defamatory? I'm sure the owners of PPRuNe have to straddle a multitude of jurisdictions who will use all sorts of mean to restrict what they view as unfavourable content. Their legal defence fund can only be so deep and so they censor as they deem fit. Do I agree with it? No, but I see what a great resource it is.

I've personally given some pretty robust criticism of recent events and a US based manufacturer that would be unhappy to read on a public forum that may be judged by the public as expert commentary (not self flattery, just 25+ years in the industry, relative to knowledge of the non-pilot). A few of my posts were deleted, but for the most part they remained.

[gretzky99]

I have heard from multiple sources that have worked for Chinese airlines that it was ops normal to turn the WX radar off completely. Apparently they are scared of the radiation frying their little swimmers....

Not saying that’s what’s happened here, but it gives you an idea how different the cultural/operational philosophies in this part of the world.