Ab initio teenager - tailwheel or tri...?

[Sam Rutherford]

So, I had a question about a teenager wanting to learn to fly who will fly both tail and tri wheel aircraft in the (very near) future.

Better to start on tailwheel (because they don't know it's more difficult, so will learn just as quickly as tri - perhaps?), or better to start on 'easier' tri and then add tailwheel later - which is what most (older) students do.

Answers on a postcard...

Thanks, Sam.

[Olympia463]

Maybe start on gliders? I reckon if you can make a good job of landing a glider you will have no problems with either tail or nose wheels. As a glider pilot I often had opportunities to fly power aircraft and found little difference whether it was a tail dragger or a trike.

[Brookmans Park]

Start on the taildragger. Going tri first will make it hard but if you start with a tail wheel you will learn how to really control the machine and master the dreaded crosswind landing much better

I speak with 20K hours on Tigers to widebodies and everything between

[Vilters]

Start with taildragger, and learn how to fly an airplane from start to stop.

Way too many times I have witnessed pilots stopping to "fly" when they touch ground. Then convert to taildraggers and end up bending airframes.

Taildraggers first is my vote.

[Maoraigh1]

After gliding, aged 23, I got my PPL on DH82 Jackeroo taildraggers, no electrics, radio, brakes. And no ATC at Thruxton.
​​​After 6 months not flying it took 1 hour 35 to convert to a Chipmunk tailwheel, with flaps, radio, electric start, then 1 hour 25 to convert to a state-of-the-art C150, with a nosewheel.
And to learn to deal with ATC at Perth.
It'd be more difficult the other way round.

[Pilot DAR]

I highly recommend initial training on taildragger, if you can find one! The student will learn the skill to fly it, and everything else will seem easier after that. All of their flying will better for it, not just the runway work. While flying a Twin Otter with a pilot new to me, he asked if I flew taildragger a lot. I replied that I did, why did he ask? "Because you use the pedals!"

The student should learn taildragger while they can, imagine that like a manual transmission, taildraggers will become rare in the "public" world. It's going to end up that unless you either own a taildragger, or can borrow one, you simply won't have an opportunity to fly one at all. Get the experience while you can...

Good to see you back here Sam....

[Big Pistons Forever]

What Pilot DAR said :ok:

[India Four Two]

It’s somewhat redundant to endorse what Pilot_DAR and BPF recommend but I agree. I learned on a Piper Colt and then switched to RAF Chipmunks. I seem to recall it took me nearly as many hours to solo on the Chippie as it did on the Colt.

Since then the majority of my flying has been on taildraggers. These days I mostly fly a C182 but my tailwheel skills are very useful on rough strips and in crosswinds, when I do “one point” landings. :)

[richardthethird]

Tailwheel....

[rjtjrt]

Tailwheel, absolutely no question in my mind.
At that age, as you say, he/she will not know it is harder and will end up having a deeply ingrained extra ability that will never be lost.

[DaveUnwin]

Another very valid point of the auto/manual car analogy is that anyone who can drive a manual car can drive an automatic. The inverse is definitely not true! Funnily enough I've recently written on this very subject - in an ideal world the progression would be glider/motorglider/taildragger/trike. If this could happen I could GUARANTEE there'd be a lot less landing prangs.

[Sam Rutherford]

Thank you all, and thank you for the personal message Pilot DAR!

[Fly Aiprt]

Tailwheel, by all means !

[7AC]

In an ideal world one should start on gliders then tailwheel and then nose wheel.
Glider for speed control, landing judgement, and a feeling for the air you are flying through.
Tailwheel for sensitivity in the use of the controls, especially the rudder and brakes,
Nosewheel just because there are so many of them out there.

[TheOddOne]

Sadly the ideal world doesn't exist. You all might well be right but let's face facts. Most school teach on Cessna 152/172 or PA28. Finding one with a ELA1 taildragger with an in-date engine and an instructor who can teach ab initio in it is a major challenge. The only option might be to buy a permit taildragger - you can then learn on it; again you'll probably struggle to find an instructor capable of teaching in it.

Soooo, in practical terms, it's get your PPL at a local school on a PA28 or Cessna, then look for the kind of flying you want to do. Several decades ago knew a couple who learned to fly together. She bought a share in a Cub, he went off and did Night, IMC and commercial. it's just what you want to do.

TOO

[Kemble Pitts]

Depends upon where you are but, Cambridge Flying Group, two DH82a Tiger Moths. Clacton Aero Club, Super Cub. Tiger Moth Training (Henstridge), er... DH82a Tiger Moths.

All provide ab-initio on proper aeroplanes.

[Wide-Body]

I am doing another skills test on a PA18 at Waltham tomorrow (3rd on tailwheel this year). We have suitably equipped aircraft to do so.

[Auxtank]

Years ago I made a training video for a popular tail dragger covering all techniques including the lion's (or should that be Tiger's) share of the video concentrating on landings.
The club chief pilot, with many many hours under his belt flying all manner of things including Vulcans, kept on and on about how the problems manifest because invariably people learn in a tri and come to tail draggers later - when they got the dosh to splash on a vintage job. He went on to say that if people learned on a tail dragger it would make the conversion to a tri a damn sight easier as the technique is essentially that of a tail-lowish landing in a dragger.

Good to see you Sam.

[sycamore]

SAM, it has to begin as a love affair ,as all teenagers have about the `older woman` dreams...you may remember,blonde,high heels,seamed stockings,suspenders,waspish waist,etc......you have to know all about her,how she smells..of hot oil( be nice if you can find one that uses Castrol R..),leather,wood,petrol,fabric,taut skin...Then you have to learn to start her,and let her warm to your ministrations..When she`s ready ,you can now take her out,and if it`s windy,you must learn to direct her properly,in gentlemanly fashion,using ailerons ,elevator and rudder,even without using the`brakes`,as she might trip,and fall,all the time looking around for obstacles,enjoying the envious glances of Cessna and other tricycle drivers.....
You must persevere in this(and any other)affair,for it will bring forth offers later of being able to `handle` such as the Chipmunk,T6,maybe a Spitfire,or a real lady ,a DC-3....
So,young man,learn well....

"Nurse,can I have some more red stuff please......"

[Auxtank]

SAM, it has to begin as a love affair ,as all teenagers have about the `older woman` dreams...you may remember,blonde,high heels,seamed stockings,suspenders,waspish waist,etc.....
You must persevere in this(and any other)affair,for it will bring forth offers later of being able to `handle` such as the Chipmunk,T6,maybe a Spitfire,or a real lady ,a DC-3....
So,young man,learn well....

"Nurse,can I have some more red stuff please......"

Brilliant.

[Sam Rutherford]

Thank you all, and thank you AuxTank for the personal message!

[Mickey Kaye]

My local school offers ab intio training on a tailwheel aircraft and at the same price as the Cessna's frankly it never flies.

Occasionally someone starts to fly it but then they speak to the club house experts who tell them they should't and then then they switch.

[BEagle]

Although I had a PPL only on Cessna 150s before I joined the RAF, converting to the delightful Chipmunk at White Waltham was relatively straightforward. Mainly because it had plenty of grass runways, so crosswinds were rarely an issue.

We were only taught the 3-point landing technique though. Which meant that landing on the tarmac runway (I think that only the main runway was still in use at that time) at RAF Thorney Island during my first summer camp in 1970 required me to relearn how to land a Chipmunk and to 'fly' it on the ground until it stopped - hopefully still pointing in the correct direction!

So think carefully about LAPL/PPL training on a tailwheel aeroplane - and whether the aerodrome has sufficient runways (preferably grass) to avoid you having to stay on the ground whilst tricycle aeroplanes are able to fly.

[Pilot DAR]

they speak to the club house experts who tell them they should't and then then they switch.

'Probably time to speak to different experts.

to avoid you having to stay on the ground whilst tricycle aeroplanes are able to fly.

After truly taking the time to practice and learn properly on a taildragger I bought, I found that it will handle a crosswind every bit as well as the 150 I also own. Yes, it requires pilot attention, but once that attention is applied, it is adequately controllable well in excess of its demonstrated crosswind value, and for anywhere I would like to take it. I have flown it in northern Canada, where many airports have only runway, and there too far apart to fly to the next because you don't like the wind direction. Sometimes you had to handle crosswinds.

That said, I have found that the least pilot effort/uncertainty for my landings in any wind is obtained with wheel landings, I no longer choose to three point any taildragger I fly. I find this to be somewhat validated in that the few taildraggers in which I have been formally checked out, I have been trained that an three point landing is to be avoided - primarily the DC-3T.

[Piper.Classique]

Oh, taildragger please. Though maybe one of the less expensive ones. How about a 90hp Jodel or a J3 Cub? The super Cub isn't ideal for ab initio, some things are a bit out of reach for the instructor. I wish I'd been able to learn on a taildragger, but I converted the instant I could, and never for one minute regretted it. I've got something a bit faster now, but it still has the third wheel at the back.

[Maoraigh1]

I suspect no wind is more difficult than crosswind in a tailwheel on a hard surface. Crosswind you know which way it'll turn. Nil wind it's up to the pilot to initiate his own oscillation. And a variable wind suddenly resulting in a few knots tailwind will increase the distance travelled before it is taxiing.
A taildragger, (not tailwheel) I've never had on a hard runway, and never want to.

[A and C]

While there is no doubt whatsoever that flying a tail dragger will make you a better pilot as you end your PPL course the practicalities of this course of action may well drive the decisions as to what to do.

Tail Draggers are harder to find and usualy more expensive to fly so the cost of traveling to a distant airfield to fly an aircraft that is more expensive may well result in flying a tricycle gear aircraft to obtain the PPL and then spending some time after the PPL course learning to fly a tail dragger.

I can’t see how this course of action would make you a worse pilot than one had done all the training on a tail dragger, in fact as flying experience is vital for a low hours pilot this course of action could well put more flying time in the log book for the same amount of money than training exclusively on a tail dragger.

[Pilot DAR]

A taildragger, (not tailwheel) I've never had on a hard runway, and never want to

Yes, me too. The only plane I have flown with a tail skid, rather than a tail wheel was a Tiger Moth. I think I just would have worn down the hardwood faster on pavement, but I never tried it!

Otherwise, I agree, I'd rather have a crosswind, than no wind, in a tailwheel airplane.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Another voice in support of learning on tailwheel. It'll teach much better fine control near to the ground, that will pay dividends in future flying.

Odds are, in a taildragger, you'll end up learning from better "stick and rudder" instructors as well.

G

[deefer dog]

Gliders first, and then tail-draggers before moving onto trikes.

Quick question: If one learns entirely on a tail-wheel type is differences training required before flying a tricycle type?

[Kemble Pitts]

No.

... but when I went to hire a DR400 after learning to fly on Tiger Moths the receptionist at the flying school suddenly stopped, looked up, and said (somewhat in jest) 'you're a nose-wheel conversion'!

But, no, there isn't such a formal thing as 'differences training' for nose-wheel aircraft - EASA can't imagine that anybody could learn to fly on a tail-dragger...

That's not to say that a check out wouldn't be a good idea.

[Jim59]

EASA requires differences training for LAPL(A) per FCL.135.A and the PPL holder who has a class rating per FCL.710
(Note: differences training does not necessarily involve any flying - it could be a briefing or being told to RTFM.)

FCL.135.A LAPL(A) — Extension of privileges to another class or variant of aeroplane
(b) Before the holder of an LAPL can exercise the privileges of the licence on another variant of aeroplane than the one used for the skill test, the pilot shall undertake differences or familiarisation training. The differences training shall be entered in the pilot’s logbook or equivalent document and signed by the instructor.

FCL.710 Class and type ratings — variants
(a) In order to extend his/her privileges to another variant of aircraft within one class or type rating, the pilot shall undertake differences or familiarisation training. In the case of variants within a type rating, the differences or familiarisation training shall include the relevant elements defined in the operational suitability data established in accordance with Part-21.
(b) If the variant has not been flown within a period of 2 years following the differences raining, further differences training or a proficiency check in that variant shall be required to maintain the privileges, except for types or variants within the single-engine piston and TMG class ratings.
(c) The differences training shall be entered in the pilot’s logbook or equivalent record and signed by the instructor as appropriate.

[Kemble Pitts]

EASA requires differences training for LAPL(A) per FCL.135.A and the PPL holder who has a class rating per FCL.710
(Note: differences training does not necessarily involve any flying - it could be a briefing or being told to RTFM.)

FCL.135.A LAPL(A) — Extension of privileges to another class or variant of aeroplane
(b) Before the holder of an LAPL can exercise the privileges of the licence on another variant of aeroplane than the one used for the skill test, the pilot shall undertake differences or familiarisation training. The differences training shall be entered in the pilot’s logbook or equivalent document and signed by the instructor.

FCL.710 Class and type ratings — variants
(a) In order to extend his/her privileges to another variant of aircraft within one class or type rating, the pilot shall undertake differences or familiarisation training. In the case of variants within a type rating, the differences or familiarisation training shall include the relevant elements defined in the operational suitability data established in accordance with Part-21.
(b) If the variant has not been flown within a period of 2 years following the differences raining, further differences training or a proficiency check in that variant shall be required to maintain the privileges, except for types or variants within the single-engine piston and TMG class ratings.
(c) The differences training shall be entered in the pilot’s logbook or equivalent record and signed by the instructor as appropriate.

Differences or familiarisation training. My reading of that is that differences taining is required for a different Class of aeroplane, familiarisation for a different Type.

Familiarisation is whatever the pilot feels he needs to safely operate the new aeroplane, from a 10 hour conversion course to sitting in the cockpit with the manual for 20 minutes before flying.

So for a pilot trained on a tailwheel aircraft who wants to fly a nose-wheel aeroplane of the same Class, differences training is not required but familiarisation is.

There is no 'nose-wheel' differences in Part FCL, there is 'tailwheel' differences though.

[Piper.Classique]

Oh well. That's an hour in a Dr400 I've wasted every couple of years, then.

[Kemble Pitts]

Flying a DR400 is never wasted.

[FullWings]

+1 for all the taildragger recommendations. I came from gliding, did my ATPL on nose wheel aircraft, then went back to taildraggers. Because of my gliding background it only took 20mins to convert onto a Cub (plus having a good instructor).

The skills you acquire to operate a taildragger competently make you much more of a thinking pilot in anything else; starting in this way when you’re young and without preconceived ideas about difficulty is an excellent idea.

[Maoraigh1]

"Oh well. That's an hour in a Dr400 I've wasted every couple of years, then."
Are you thinking of your "Biennial hour with an Instructor"?
​​​​​​At least 75% of my hours are DR1050, but my "hour" is always a check-out on a flying school rental. My last tailwheel check was 1965.
With no instructor involvement, I flew home a Bolkow Junior we bought a year ago. Should a sign-off in my log book by an instructor who'd never flown that model been made? Few instructors are available and current in rarer aircraft.

[Piper.Classique]

Yes, I've been doing my instructor hour in a nosedragger for years now. So I could have done it on the cub? Would have saved some money...... No instructor has been involved in my conversion to the Vega though. Briefed and flew. Then did my share of the test flying. It's about as different from a cub as you can get while still having fixed gear and prop.

[Jim59]

Few instructors are available and current in rarer aircraft.

Same problem for training new glider tug pilots. Since spring 2018 the system that has worked in the UK since aerotowing began whereby glider clubs' Chief Tug Pilots trained new tuggies has been ended. EASA now requires tug pilots to be taught by an aeroplane instructor who holds the Sailplane Towing Rating. The number of aeroplane instructors with the rating and appropriate experience to perform the role is minimal. The school also has to be approved or to have decared that they teach the rating which limits it even more - especially as few schools have any gliders to tow or aircraft with hooks fitted.

In practice the only places where you can learn the trade now are the handfull of gliding clubs that happen to have a tug pilot who is also an aeroplane instructor.

[Olympia463]

My! how the world gets complicated when the chair borne pilots get to work. I'm a glider pilot. It was my job to check out all the tug pilots at our club in 1966 when we bought our Tiger Moth (G-AHUE - anyone remember her?) . The rule at that time was that the sum of the tows at each end of the string had to be at least six. As all our prospective tug pilots were new to glider towing I had to go to another club to accumulate the requisite six tows. I have no idea how many out of my 700+ subsequent aerotows were checkouts, but we never had any accidents or emergencies in all the the time I was flying there, so it seems as though another regulation of the gold plated variety has just been created. As most, but not all, of our tug drivers were ex-RAF who had been trained on Tigers I guess we were just lucky. Does this new rule state how many tows the 'Chief Tug pilot' has to have done to qualify?

[T21]

Yes, I remember Tiger Moth GAHUE very well. Did many hours towing in it and many being towed by it. Unfortunately it was destroyed in a mid air collision in which the pilot lost his life. We never wore parachutes in it.
Later I became an instructor at a local flying school on Cessna 150's. When I was teaching landings I would always insist on a "tail wheel" type landing with the aircraft stalled onto the ground. It can be done so easily. But it takes more work from the instructor but the results were satisfying. My students took no more time to solo than the average pilot. I then became the person responsible for finding tug pilots for our Chipmunk. It was a piece of cake to convert my students They already knew how to land properly! The only difficulty was taxying' initial roll and keeping it straight after landing and, of course, careful use of the brakes.
I would say that if you can find a tail wheel aircraft to learn on then do it. You can then convert onto a nose wheel aircraft with ease and in many cases still using your tail wheel landing techniques.