CMP and JCR

[RAT Management]

Last night's CMP update if you read it right says there will be no improvement to rosters by 4th QTR 2020 as planned. This is due to the "many" already identified delays to JCR coming online.....

So much for CMP being the panacea for everyone's ills. I was sceptical from the start but so many crews thought it was going to be great.... Just look at the ASRF report exponential increase let alone the resignations.

Move beyond!

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[poydras]

Recently had a chat with an LCC NA pilot.

We started to compare rosters and benefits.

I was boasting about the “famous” 6 weeks leave”

and showed him my May roster. He proceeded to

show me his May roster and lo and behold

he had almost as many days off as I have with the

only difference that I had “2 weeks leave”.

My puffed up chest quickly deflated.

This is a Low cost carrier with better roster solutions.

Easy swaps, no hassle, accommodating crew schedulers.

I could tell they value their pilots

Cathay is an illusion. It’s stuck at the stone age in all aspects.

They love to talk but no action is ever made.

Perhaps it is time to move beyond.

[OK4Wire]

I was boasting about the “famous” 6 weeks leave” Seriously??

I am taking 3 weeks leave to go skiing, and my (nurse) wife has taken 4 (yes, four) days leave to get the same amount of time off. Admittedly there might be a Christmas in there, and she had to "request" a particular shift before and after, but there it is. Yet another example of how we allow our masters to shaft us big time.

Pre COSAP 94 (8 weeks leave) might have been worth boasting about.

[CX ex]

Recently had a chat with an LCC NA pilot.

he had almost as many days off as I have with the

only difference that I had “2 weeks leave”.

This is a Low cost carrier with better roster solutions.

Easy swaps, no hassle, accommodating crew schedulers.

I could tell they value their pilots


These things are NOT because they “value” their pilots. It’s because they “value” (via enforceable law) their detailed contract that was achieved through sacrifice and unity of the pilot group.

Make no mistake, it’s that way because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to.

[poydras]

These things are NOT because they “value” their pilots. It’s because they “value” (via enforceable law) their detailed contract that was achieved through sacrifice and unity of the pilot group.

Make no mistake, it’s that way because they HAVE to, not because they WANT to.



Agree totally. My reference was also about the way FLIKA system ( swap, requests, trip drop, open time) was easily agreed by JB pilot group and their management once of course demonstrating its validity.
We don’t have a unified group unfortunately agree.
It’s a shame.

[Slasher1]

FWIW the rosters I’ve seen since CMP being initiated have been the worst ones since I’ve been here. This is not really the fault of CMP but of the prevailing philosophy of rostering. The roster is built — potentially with some decent efficiency and fatigue weighting modules — and then reserve is added in later (after the CMP process) to fill in the gaps of what would have been time off. Really a scam. And rosters are changed on a whim later (again with no regard to what CMP might have figured)— negating any benefit of the program. With the goal of putting someone on a string for as much as possible.

Until the rosters become unchangable without agreement of the rosteree, and reserve becomes an integral part of the process (being paid and having a penalty factor) you will see things go downhill. I really haven’t ever seen anything like this in a long haul operation.

As usual, the TUs will remain impotent to have any measurable effect. To be fair this isn’t completely their fault; too many scabs and pussies amongst us to force a win-win.

[Loopdeloop]

For the first time in about 20 years the company were getting a bit desperate last month. Then a bunch of guys volunteered to be forced into training. The rosters won't be getting better any day soon now, they'll just do what they want with the pilots that are left. Many more are leaving of course but rather than persuade them to stay, the company will sweat the assets still here, which will continue until the next recession when the turnover reduces and the company can consolidate. The opportunity for change has just been squandered, as ever, by a minority of selfish pilots.

[cannot]

Well it’s time to name and shame ,personally I prefer the idea of a quick trip behind the barn to explain to these thick witted dolts the stupidity of their choices

[Flex88]

JCR - Really?
I'm from the government and I'm here to help you...
Your cheques in the mail...

CX already got what it wanted in this deal, that's the end of it. Period.
You will get no more, zip, nada, ZERO.

Save your energy for packing up the 700 sq/ft apartment and moving home to a new decent employer.

[OK4Wire]

Loop, I don't think 6 or 8 Captains (out of 3000+ pilots) going into training has put paid to the company's desperation.

When was the last guidance or a reminder on CC? What are our aims, again? And before Dan says there isn't any need for a reminder, just do it, all troops need to have a clear and precise goal - and we don't have one!

They won't offer improvements because of our CC, they will just continue to find a work-around, as they have done forever.

We need to recapture the CC spirit with a clear, concise and coordinated campaign, not a boring re-hash of the same **** I have been doing for 20 years - IT'S NOT WORKING. "But it's having an effect" I hear you say - no, it's not: Swires moved up God knows how many places on the Rich List, our Directors continue to get bonuses, and our aircraft continue to get parked. NO-ONE CARES! Think we are "doing CC" by turning up to the dispatch desk at the right time, having spent 25 minutes looking at the iPad in the comfy lounge? Correct CC would see the cockpit crew in seperate busses every time.

Let's not keep doing the same thing over and over again thinking that we are bringing the company to it's knees. Do it smarter, not longer. If the membership could see how the GC is conducting it's business right now, they would run a mile. Stop shooting yourselves in the foot.

"Oh, but we can't just give up, they'll never offer us a negotiated RPs then!" Giving up, and reorganising into a new CC campaign are not the same thing. And besides, once Global RPs are negotiated, what then? Find another reason to stay in CC?

Fix the GC, fix the industrial sub-committee, fix the AOA. Only then can we start to think about what we are trying to achieve.

[DessertRat]

OK4WIRE,

I’m sorry mate it’s worse than 6 or 8 captains going into training -

It’s at least 12 in June alone: DH; PR; NC; BdlH; SF; PB; RS; DE; TG; DM; MG; KL.

You boys know who you are.

[RAT Management]

OK4WIRE,

I’m sorry mate it’s worse than 6 or 8 captains going into training -

It’s at least 12 in June alone: DH; PR; NC; BdlH; SF; PB; RS; DE; TG; DM; MG; KL.

You boys know who you are.

So there you have it.

There's pilots who would like to go into training but have refused the "forced" training position on principle and integrity.

Then there's pilots who would like to go into training but play the "forced" line in their colleagues in order to further their own selfish gains.

So there you have it, if you do the right thing and choose the hard morally correct path that is bound by principles and integrity you end up hurting your career and your own goals. While those that choose the easy path of self servitude, further their careers and goals.

It sends a clear message. Screw your course mates, your son's and daughter's future for your fast track gains. Who was it from Swire that said nobody ever got far in business by sticking to their principles.

I know what I would rather be.

[OK4Wire]

So it's even worse than I thought: our well-thought strategy is now going to fail because 12 new trainers are going to join the existing 210 trainers, out of a pilot group of 3000+?

By the by, Rat^2: how many trainers have you guys personally asked to resign their positions?

added: If the success or failure of the AOA has come down to 12 (or 24, or 36) people's actions alone, then this just reiterates my view that we are in an untenable situation that needs a complete reset.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

If you believe there is only 12 you are completely out of touch. Triple that number, add some and more to come! Complete reset required.


So it's even worse than I thought: our well-thought strategy is now going to fail because 12 new trainers are going to join the existing 210 trainers, out of a pilot group of 3000+?

By the by, Rat^2: how many trainers have you guys personally asked to resign their positions?

added: If the success or failure of the AOA has come down to 12 (or 24, or 36) people's actions alone, then this just reiterates my view that we are in an untenable situation that needs a complete reset.

[OK4Wire]

Agree that a complete reset is required. A bit like Australia's Labour party, who have just lost their third "unloseable" election.

We lost when B scales were introduced, then C scales, then COS99 and COS18. With a whole host of other losses in between; all the while maintaining the same "winning formula" of contract compliance.

Cancel everything, and have six months of town square meetings, or better yet talk to every member, but please find a new way forward.

[Oasis]

What roster code would you get if you were to go into training?

[OK4Wire]

I believe all the training codes are now not available for viewing.

[Piet Lood]

Scabs, the lot of them.
But you’ll still suck up to them when they do your linecheck.
And some of you will even have a beer with them.

[unitedabx]

Scabs, the lot of them.
But you’ll still suck up to them when they do your linecheck.
And some of you will even have a beer with them.

SCABS are exactly what they are and they need to be named. The AOA also needs to provide a list of their names to all unions worldwide ( particularly The Teamsters in the USA ) and then when one of these SCABS lands a CX plane in North America that is where it will stay. Grounded.

[Kitsune]

Agree that a complete reset is required. A bit like Australia's Labour party, who have just lost their third "unloseable" election.

We lost when B scales were introduced, then C scales, then COS99 and COS18. With a whole host of other losses in between; all the while maintaining the same "winning formula" of contract compliance.

Cancel everything, and have six months of town square meetings, or better yet talk to every member, but please find a new way forward.
Certainly not true when the rot of ‘B’ Scales set in... at the “negotiating” table we told the then DFO that no one would ever come to Hong Kong on such a derisory salary and conditions... he showed us the umpteen job applications he’d had, particularly from the great unwashed land DownUnder, we took his deal to the Mariners Club (the venue for HKAOA meetings at the time) and everybody just sucked up the few increments involved (including yours truly)... the general consensus was, ‘If they are daft enough to come here on those conditions that’s up to them’.... it seems very little has changed...

[controlledrest]

CMP / JCR is not about us. Its only purpose is to get more hours out of crew for less money. It could have been a win - win, except this is Cathay. In Hong Kong in general everyone is happy to screw over someone else to get ahead. CX Management take this attitude as a point of pride. Compounding our problems are the local staff who can't think outside the box and are also happy to screw over crew.

It is critical that we refuse to work unsafe duties and submit an ASR-F. We must also report all controlled rest events. The company has already approached HKCAD to increase our flight hours from 900 to 1000. The only thing that prevented this was CAD concerns re our fatigue levels.

CMP gives them the tools to really screw us over. In the interests of safety and our health we must push back when appropriate.

2 pilot, 2 sector through the night? Can Not!

[stevieboy330]

What happened to the idea that those who went into training because they were "forced" would have to file a grievance with CX if they wanted to stay in the AOA ? seemed like a good idea to me?

[Dilbert68]

None of those clowns were forced.

[cxorcist]

None of those clowns were forced.

... and what of the existing trainers whom will train these new, scab trainers? Not exactly blameless!!!! It’s bad enough that they train their much cheaper replacements every day.

[OK4Wire]

right, cxorcist. So if it wasn't for 200 pilots who insist on remaining trainers all would be fine? Ignore that the vast majority (170 or so) were themselves "cheaper replacements" when they joined. The training ban is a flawed strategy (as is the way we are doing contract compliance).

Ever more strident calls to "win" or "hold the line" by doing either or both of these "harder" or "better" or "more intensely" are crap: the GC needs to start with a blank page.

We (rightly, I think) mock the company's new slogan, but at least they have attempted, however poorly, to have an update - where's ours? On the industrial side we are seeing the very worst of unionism - stale, entrenched, typified by infighting, and unable to move forward ("beyond"). The GC is a bunch of volunteers, time poor and doing their utter best to cope, inundated by the necessary daily domestic tasks and trivia that need attending to.

TH is doing a good job holding things together, but we need another ND (for all his flaws) if you want to see some unity and leadership.

[cxorcist]

Can you imagine having all the power and refusing to use it, even in the gravest of circumstances? That essentially defines CX trainers. Short of a strike that won’t happen because the HKAOA is poorly led with a weak kneed membership and the illegality of strikes on the bases; trainers are the last hope. Too bad they are even more spineless than the HKAOA GC and the membership that elected it. Irregardless, training your cheaper replacements is just plain dumb. You’ll never catch me doing that.

[cannot]

Yet because the general membership is not strong enough to strike , you want / expect the trainers to fight on your behalf .
you want them to quit and take the brunt of whatever the company decides to retaliate with . Sorry but everyone must come to the party you cannot expect one small group to fight on your behalf .

[Apple Tree Yard]

In most mature, first world airlines, ALL the pilots decide they will stop work on the same day. They don't impose a special obligation on one group or another. If and when the AOA holds a strike vote, I will be there. Until then, trying to guilt trip one particular group is singularly opportunistic and crass. If we hold a strike, I for one will honour it.

[cxorcist]

Yet because the general membership is not strong enough to strike , you want / expect the trainers to fight on your behalf .
you want them to quit and take the brunt of whatever the company decides to retaliate with . Sorry but everyone must come to the party you cannot expect one small group to fight on your behalf .

I simply want them to do the right thing. It’s actually not complex, despite efforts to justify training cheaper pilots and new scab trainers. But we all know they won’t, why? Because they are selfish and/or narcissistic.

[RAT Management]

Why not get all the FO's to go sick . That's the same as the trainers. Or the captain's for that matter. That is essentially what your wanting to do.

It's really stupid and really flawed. To do either requires 100% unity. Something that has never been displayed not during the 49ers. I mean seriously if everybody downed tools on that news that 49 people were sacked. There would have been no drawn out Court case. No union compensation fund. It would have been resolved in a week. It's not hard to get a sick note for a week if you really want one especially in this day and age of stress and divorce and Family issues, coupled with fatigue or general tiredness.

I am sorry to be a realist but the union is ironic because as the name suggests it's the opposite of what we are. Just resign from the union if your not happy. Then take your forced training position. Retire early or sell your skills to some other carrier.

But don't pin your hopes on people being United to fix the glaring problems that exist in plain sight.

It's over... Time to win and move beyond.

[cxorcist]

Actually, I’m not asking the trainers to take any unified action as a group. All I’m asking them to do is the right thing. They know they are enabling the degradation of all our careers by selfishly doing something that is 100% voluntary, now and in the past. They disgust me, and they will never have my respect, only inauthenticity as I renew my license. I’ll nod my head and take little notes, but there’s no respect. None!

[RAT Management]

Actually, I’m not asking the trainers to take any unified action as a group. All I’m asking them to do is the right thing. They know they are enabling the degradation of all our careers by selfishly doing something that is 100% voluntary, now and in the past. They disgust me, and they will never have my respect, only inauthenticity as I renew my license. I’ll nod my head and take little notes, but there’s no respect. None!
without prejudice:
Well maybe your looking at this from the wrong side of the fence. The trainers are training because they are happy to train and they are happy with their pay and conditions. They do not have to play judge jury and executioner for those that "choose" to join on whatever their package is. To say you have no respect for them leaves little respect for you and your attitude. Market forces will ultimately dictate your pay and conditions. The world over is seeing decreasing salaries for increased workload. I am not saying it's right. But the next time you sit next to me and take controlled rest because you weren't adequately rested for your duty instead of taking yourself off that duty, then you should ask who deserves the respect. Ask yourself how many times you have called in sick/fatigued down route and delayed a flight due to not being rested or whatever. If the answer is less than 5 in the last 4 years then it's ultimately you who has less respect deserved from your fellow crew members. If your "pushing through" then you sir are the one single handedly allowing the degrading conditions you so blame the trainers for.

Stop blaming others and be professional about what your licence mandates of you. If the conditions are such that there is doubt in your ability to complete the duty you MUST NOT FLY. It's as simple as that. You and everyone else in this organisation is the enemy and until we actually get professional not in the sense the company expects ( to complete the duty ) but of that what our passengers expect, a fit healthy well rested crew capable of completing the normal duty as well as any emergency you can think of.

I am not pointing fingers but merely starting the obvious as ASRF's are exponentially increasing with the introduction of CMP but the same notorious patterns are still being rostered and crewed with minimal reaction to the reports from the crews.

The cabin crew don't use ASRF for patterns that are too hard. They take a different approach that works. I don't see them doing the same layovers as flight crew even though their aftls are the same as ours.

[cxorcist]

without prejudice:
Well maybe your looking at this from the wrong side of the fence. The trainers are training because they are happy to train and they are happy with their pay and conditions. They do not have to play judge jury and executioner for those that "choose" to join on whatever their package is. To say you have no respect for them leaves little respect for you and your attitude. Market forces will ultimately dictate your pay and conditions. The world over is seeing decreasing salaries for increased workload. I am not saying it's right. But the next time you sit next to me and take controlled rest because you weren't adequately rested for your duty instead of taking yourself off that duty, then you should ask who deserves the respect. Ask yourself how many times you have called in sick/fatigued down route and delayed a flight due to not being rested or whatever. If the answer is less than 5 in the last 4 years then it's ultimately you who has less respect deserved from your fellow crew members. If your "pushing through" then you sir are the one single handedly allowing the degrading conditions you so blame the trainers for.

Stop blaming others and be professional about what your licence mandates of you. If the conditions are such that there is doubt in your ability to complete the duty you MUST NOT FLY. It's as simple as that. You and everyone else in this organisation is the enemy and until we actually get professional not in the sense the company expects ( to complete the duty ) but of that what our passengers expect, a fit healthy well rested crew capable of completing the normal duty as well as any emergency you can think of.

I am not pointing fingers but merely starting the obvious as ASRF's are exponentially increasing with the introduction of CMP but the same notorious patterns are still being rostered and crewed with minimal reaction to the reports from the crews.

The cabin crew don't use ASRF for patterns that are too hard. They take a different approach that works. I don't see them doing the same layovers as flight crew even though their aftls are the same as ours.

Wow! A lot of assumptions in there. I sure hope you don’t drag a similar batch of assumptions into all your checking and training events. That would be the epitome of unprofessional.

Anyone, yes anyone, who trains their cheaper replacements deserves the Darwin Award. You, sir, are self-selecting your own demise. Maybe, you get away and retire before the day of reckoning. If so, good for you, but what of those you leave behind? Do you care? I can only assume not.

[OK4Wire]

anyone, who trains their cheaper replacements deserves the Darwin Award

I say again: 170 of the current 200 trainers ARE themselves cheaper replacements - was it okay for them to get trained onto the line, but they mustn't train any others, is that right? So, just one level of cheapness, but not 2 or 3?


But yes, A scalers (of CX, BA and QF) deserve the Darwin award, cos they had so much power.

[cxorcist]

I say again: 170 of the current 200 trainers ARE themselves cheaper replacements - was it okay for them to get trained onto the line, but they mustn't train any others, is that right? So, just one level of cheapness, but not 2 or 3?


But yes, A scalers (of CX, BA and QF) deserve the Darwin award, cos they had so much power.

Yes, the Darwin Award! How many A scalers are around today? 10-15 years from now, it will be the same with B. For being “the best and the brightest” at CX, you trainers really are dumb!

OK4wire, your moral relativity is a weakness.

[Roy De Kantzow]

without prejudice:
But the next time you sit next to me and take controlled rest because you weren't adequately rested for your duty instead of taking yourself off that duty, then you should ask who deserves the respect. Ask yourself how many times you have called in sick/fatigued down route and delayed a flight due to not being rested or whatever. If the answer is less than 5 in the last 4 years then it's ultimately you who has less respect deserved from your fellow crew members. If your "pushing through" then you sir are the one single handedly allowing the degrading conditions you so blame the trainers for.

Stop blaming others and be professional about what your licence mandates of you. If the conditions are such that there is doubt in your ability to complete the duty you MUST NOT FLY. It's as simple as that. .

So are you suggesting that taking controlled rest is somehow unprofessional?

[Oasis]

If it is relied upon before signing on for a duty, I would call it unprofessional.

[Roy De Kantzow]

I have previously called in unfit for duty when I have been unable to rest, or my cumulative fatigue is so great that I am in no fit state to operate.

However, one can never say for certain that controlled rest may be needed.

When beginning a duty at 1am body clock, one may feel OK. Then lo and behold a couple of hours later, the body crashes and needs sleep, so controlled rest is taken.

I use controlled rest not because I'm unprofessional, but because I'm a human. I use it to protect myself from fatigue and its long term affects. I fully encourage the use of as much controlled rest as possible. At the end of the day you get one shot at life, and I am sure there are studies proving that irregular sleep is bad for your health. Being a hero and staying up all night, is kinda daft in my view. Controlled rest makes me feel better, and I have no qualms about using it. Regardless of how well you rest in the time prior to flight, the body's circadian rhythm still functions. I would argue using controlled rest is more professional than not, as it increases the body's ability to deal with problems and reduces fatigue.

[cxorcist]

I have previously called in unfit for duty when I have been unable to rest, or my cumulative fatigue is so great that I am in no fit state to operate.

However, one can never say for certain that controlled rest may be needed.

When beginning a duty at 1am body clock, one may feel OK. Then lo and behold a couple of hours later, the body crashes and needs sleep, so controlled rest is taken.

I use controlled rest not because I'm unprofessional, but because I'm a human. I use it to protect myself from fatigue and its long term affects. I fully encourage the use of as much controlled rest as possible. At the end of the day you get one shot at life, and I am sure there are studies proving that irregular sleep is bad for your health. Being a hero and staying up all night, is kinda daft in my view. Controlled rest makes me feel better, and I have no qualms about using it. Regardless of how well you rest in the time prior to flight, the body's circadian rhythm still functions. I would argue using controlled rest is more professional than not, as it increases the body's ability to deal with problems and reduces fatigue.

Absolutely correct! That RAT brings this up as an issue is a ridiculous red herring. Must be covering for something else. Wonder what that might be???

[controlledrest]

The aircraft we currently operate are certified for 2 crew, not 1. Taking controlled rest is operating the aircraft outside its certification.

The need for controlled rest is more often than not a by-product of the way we are rostered. Back when we flew to 700 hours rather than 900 I never felt the need for controlled rest.

It really pisses me off when someone takes controlled rest and then doesn't report it. If fatigue isn't a problem as far as the company and regulator are concerned things will only get worse. With the new controlled rest report form it doesn't take long. If everyone reported when they actually took controlled rest HKCAD would realise how badly CX addresses fatigue.

CX does a piss poor job of educating new joiners on fatigue management. I had to do my own research to learn what works best for me. I paid for my own copy of CrewAlertPro to assist with my sleep management.

If you take controlled rest REPORT IT.

[Farman Biplane]

Unless you make it a MOR, and get it through the company filters, I doubt CAD is getting the real picture on CR.

[mngmt mole]

As per ControlledRest's post: FILE A REPORT EVERY SINGLE TIME. The only way we will stop abusive rostering is if we take responsibility for reporting it. If the CAD does not get any reports, they will not consider it a problem. If however they are buried with reports, they will have to act. Don't help support the company's abuses with laziness and inaction. REPORT ALL CR.