Motive

[Hugo Peroni the V]

What is the point of CC and the TB at the present time?
Nobody seems to know!

[RAT Management]

To move beyond

[Natca]

What is wrong with you? Hold the line and keep it together. So what a few weak guys crossed the line. Retirements and medical outs will continue, they will break sooner than later.

[Oasis]

Anyone knows there is no being forced into training. Those who start the training are breaking the ban.
Pathetic to think they thought we would fall for this little charade.

[cxorcist]

Anyone knows there is no being forced into training. Those who start the training are breaking the ban.
Pathetic to think they thought we would fall for this little charade.

Exactly correct. Please know that nobody is fooled if you become a trainer.

[OK4Wire]

There is no more ban, Dan. It's been well and truly broken. And I've been in CC longer than most of the seniority list have been in CX. Hugo has it right: name your goal. And how many times has this forum laughed at people repeating the same action expecting different results? GC, meet mirror.

[Roy De Kantzow]

There is no point to either.

Membership is too dysfunctional/selfish to affect change.

If I still worked at CX (fortunately I escaped to greener pastures), I would quit the waste of time HKAOA, and simply do what suited me. If I wanted to work on a G then I would, if I wanted to call in sick I would. The simple fact is that no one apart from YOU will spare a second thought for you. You have one life so I would suggest do as you please.

The chest thumping that goes on here about 'not flying with so and so because they're a scab' is all hot air.

Just do whatever you like and make your own life enjoyable!

[Oasis]

There is no point to either.

Membership is too dysfunctional/selfish to affect change.

If I still worked at CX (fortunately I escaped to greener pastures), I would quit the waste of time HKAOA, and simply do what suited me. If I wanted to work on a G then I would, if I wanted to call in sick I would. The simple fact is that no one apart from YOU will spare a second thought for you. You have one life so I would suggest do as you please.

The chest thumping that goes on here about 'not flying with so and so because they're a scab' is all hot air.

Just do whatever you like and make your own life enjoyable!

So you were in the union, and you still worked g days?
Nice... oh well as long as you are happy, right?
Why bother paying the dues I wonder.

[autobabysit]

English obviously isn't your strong point is it, Oasis?

Roy de Kantzow is using something called the "counterfactual conditional" tense. He doesn't still work at CX, but he is making the hypothetical point that if he did he would not be in the HKAOA, and so on.

I guess that only comes up in ICAO Level 5 or 6 though.

I was gonna say just give this kid a break, we’ve had enough of that attitude from TCs already.

Then I read your 2nd paragraph. Well...at least you are teaching something useful. Not just telling him to go home and read up Vol. 4

[Roy De Kantzow]

English obviously isn't your strong point is it, Oasis?

Roy de Kantzow is using something called the "counterfactual conditional" tense. He doesn't still work at CX, but he is making the hypothetical point that if he did he would not be in the HKAOA, and so on.

I guess that only comes up in ICAO Level 5 or 6 though.Thank you, Paul. You're absolutely correct... I was beginning to think I had lost the knack of the English language... however, my faith is restored. It turns out I am able to make a reasonable point through the medium of typing. And for Oasis - I never worked a single G-Day during my entire time at CX, either as a union member or otherwise, or during CC or otherwise. Hope that's clear...?

[Oasis]

Apologies Roy, that’s what you get when you post too late at night.
Reading you post a second time made it clear what you meant to say.

[main_dog]

I don’t agree with the sentiment expressed by some here. Giving up because it’s all too hard, our colleagues are too selfish, the ban is broken etc. means becoming part of the problem, not the solution. It makes a union pointless and weakens all of us in the long run just for the sake of some short-term gain.

What you’re saying is that you give up because we haven’t succeeded yet so we’ll never win. I say we haven’t tried hard enough. Change our tactics, perhaps, but surrender? No. Harden up gents, it’s not like it’s a real war or anything, all one has to do is bloody well not answer the phone and not go into training, is that really too hard?

[gretzky99]

Main Dog gets it.

Do we give up CC/TB etc and take the selfish route of doing what's best for the individual because the union is dysfunctional, useless, a waste of money etc.

OR

Is the union dysfunctional, useless, a waste of money etc, because of too may individuals giving up CC/TB, being selfish and only doing what's best for them?

[flyhardmo]

The union is dysfunctional because of the membership. When only 30% decide to vote in AOA motions then you get the GC that you deserve. FFS we had the chance to vote out the current GC including one member of the GC who tried to sue a fellow member for exercising his membership rights, has now quit the association and run off to do training.

We deserve everything we get.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

Maybe better worded...what does anyone expect to achieve by CC and the TB beyond pointless trips to CX?

[Roy De Kantzow]

Main Dog gets it.

Is the union dysfunctional, useless, a waste of money etc, because of too may individuals giving up CC/TB, being selfish and only doing what's best for them?The union is dysfunctional, useless and a waste of money because of the APPALLING leadership that has been displayed by the previous chairman and the GC. That is the real reason people get fed up and become selfish.

It's all very well being noble and 'towing the line' etc etc, but when time after time after time, the HKAOA is caught like a deer in the headlights every time the company does something one has to wonder, 'what is the point'?

Hugo - in my view CC has long since stopped being effective. The company simply roster more defensively.

TB is effective in putting pressure on the company, however the reason people are joining training is probably because they are totally fed up of the lack of effectiveness the union shows. You end up in ever decreasing circles. Not everyone agreed with him, but Rod took the correct view, and fought the company. It is the only language they understand.

[4 driver]

How can one find out who the new training Captains are?

[cannot]

Look at the rosters , but once they are known name and shame , having said that they obviously have no shame

[Veruka Salt]

Exactly, Dan. I read that thread on Yammer and cringe.

[Dilbert68]

Exactly, Dan. I read that thread on Yammer and cringe.

Why are you reading Yammer?

[Veruka Salt]

To keep abreast of the latest Airbus NPs!

[OK4Wire]

...
It's never ending. We are are own worst enemy.

Exactly why Hugo's point is valid. Call an operational halt, sort out some real goals to aim for and come back with a proper plan.

[controlledrest]

Training Ban. To force the company to negotiate in good faith and treat us as an important part of the operation. To treat us with respect. One much stand up to bullies. (Anyone going into training is f**king scum to me).

Contract Compliance. Because that is what I have agreed to work to. Contract Compliance is not industrial action. It is fulfilling your contractural obligations.

[main_dog]

To Hugo’s point. The training ban obviously has their serious attention, to the extent they’re willing to “force” people into training against all common sense and industry best practice. The TB is not “broken” until we cave in, despite some or even many defections from the weak or selfish.

I do agree as a union we need to reassess our tactics and strategy, hopefully we’ll eventually get some much-needed leadership and direction. I would love to see DLC at the helm again.

Individually deciding to throw in the towel, however, means snatching defeat from the jaws of potential victory (and don’t tell me that on the heels of the momentous 78% NO vote we didn’t squander some incredible negotiating potential).

Instead of moaning about what the HKAOA did or didn’t do, ask yourself what you are doing, as an individual, to put pressure on the company to behave honourably and respect our contracts and wholly reasonable expectations. The end result of our group effort will be decided by our determination as single individuals, the daily actions of each and every one of us.

[Piet Lood]

Won’t work.
Too many selfish/defeatist egocentric “colleagues” who are not willing to stand up to the bully.
Furthermore, as stated before: there is no leadership.
You guys are done for. Or at least your conditions of service are.
Me, me, me, me!

[Hugo Peroni the V]

[QUOTE=controlledrest;10471544]Training Ban. To force the company to negotiate in good faith and treat us as an important part of the operation. To treat us with respect. One much stand up to bullies. (Anyone going into training is f**king scum to me).

And how has that worked so far? A devils advocate question CR as I agree with so much of what you say but I don’t see anyone with a decent argument for what we are trying to achieve.

My contract lets me check crew direct, let’s me accept a flight with 50,000$ of EFP, let’s me go into training......yet I get up at 6am to slug it to the airport to sign on for a RPT, I watch that EFP go to some c*** and resist training. Why? For the notion of unity? That something good might come of all this? I stoically follow the mandate of CC and the TB but I don’t even know what for anymore.

[Piet Lood]

Then they’ve won, haven’t they.
Better to hand deliver your balls to the 9th floor and wave the white flag then.
Surely that will get you a better CoS.

That or come up with a better plan and lead.
That would take effort, determination and some guts, but it seems you are all a bit tired of it all.

Don’t get me wrong: you’re not wrong, but from
where I’m standing you’re all waiting for the other guy to stand up and lead.

Step it up or give it up.
Seems like too many have done the latter already.