Hearing Loss

[ORAC]

Must be a lot of hearing loss out there from jet noise - and hours monitoring HF radio......

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/550-000-for-deafened-marine-d8jzm8mk5

£550,000 for deafened Marine

A former Royal Marine commando has been awarded £550,000 in damages after suffering noise-induced chronic hearing loss while on operations.

Alistair Inglis, 39, left the armed forces in 2012 after 14 years because of his disability, which was sustained in training and combat. The veteran, who now works in maritime security, served in Northern Ireland and Afghanistan, where he was a section commander in Helmand province and repeatedly came under fire. Lawyers for Mr Inglis claimed that the Ministry of Defence had failed to provided sufficient protective equipment.

After a deputy High Court judge awarded him damages yesterday, they said they had received instruction from 2,200 other serving and former personnel who claim to have had hearing problems.

The MoD admitted that Mr Inglis’s hearing loss and tinnitus had arisen “as a result of his negligent exposure to noise whilst serving in the Royal Marines” and said that liability should be split “80:20 in the claimant’s favour”. Disputing the amount of damages to which he was entitled, however, the MoD argued that Mr Inglis, from Plymouth, had left voluntarily while still “fit for all duties”. The High Court had heard in March that Mr Inglis had a hearing deficit equivalent to a man in his seventies.

Judge Peter Marquand found that the claimant had “left the Royal Marines because of his hearing loss”. He ruled that the government must pay him damages including £200,000 to cover future loss of earnings and just over £280,000 for future loss of pension. He said that an application by the MoD for permission to appeal against his ruling had been refused.......

[Nomad2]

Eh.......?

[Radley]

Retired a couple of years ago after working for some 30- years in the back of a noisy ac. I first noticed
that my hearing had been affected, in my case tinnitus, when I could not hear the majority of 'beeps'
during my hearing test. I did not mention it until the doctor commented that my hearing was still fine.
I went back after 6- months for a further test and all was well they said. I now have constant high pitch ringing
in both ears. When I left the RAF I requested all of my medical records, but strangely enough there was no
mention of my visits.

[Fareastdriver]

There was a compensation scheme in the late eighties or early nineties which I took advantage of even though I held a CAA Class One medical. Mine was on the basis that ASCEU had banned the wearing of helmets whilst crew changing on Pumas at night. The word got around quite a few ex service people locally and one friend who had done national service and was deafish in his right ear got it on the basis of firing a .303 rifle.

I received around £1,350 which I thought was OK at the time. It has stymied me for the £250,000 I could get now.

[BEagle]

5000 hours of using those useless 'Airlite' headsets in the Vickers Funbus hasn't done my hearing any good....

[Lingo Dan]

I finally bit the bullet and went for hearing test with a company in Aberdeen just over two years ago. (age70) When I mentioned that I had tinnitus, he said he could produce a test tone that did not resemble tinnitus. That was indeed the case and my life has been transformed by a high-end hearing aid, tuned to match the audiogram of each ear. The RAF and CAA audiogram tests simply produced the standard tones, unlike the "warbling" notes of this audiogram

So: technology exists to obtain an accurate audiogram despite the presence of tinnitus.

My hearing loss was caused by the use of an antibiotic "Gentomicin" (excuse spelling) to fix an ear infection when on loan service to SOAF. I later found out that this was the "nuclear option" with a side-effect of hearing loss. This very powerful drug would normally be used for very serious conditions such as meningitis, where the side effects were acceptable given the seriousness of the disease. However, nobody told me that at the time.

When I left the RAF at age 38, my medical documents recorded that my hearing loss had been due to "exposure to musketry!" 9mm musketry and not 5000-ish hours on helicopters!

[MPN11]

I discovered high-tone deafness when evaluating new headset designs at NATS. On leaving the RAF, I went for the pukka disability test, somewhere near Andover. The tester confirmed the diagnosis, saying it was "classic .303 damage" [from my Air Cadet days]. Sadly I was not deaf enough to qualify for a disability pension.

My wife is now accustomed to repeating herself frequently! :(

[Chugalug2]

I recall having an audiogram while still serving. The doc perused the printout and declared that I must be on helicopters. "No!", I responded in a somewhat triumphant way. "Then it's the Hercules", he replied. He was right. Pre flights walking under a running ATM, even with the puny earplugs belatedly supplied, knocked out the same frequencies.

[ancientaviator62]

Hmn,
I must find out what 13000 hours on the C130K 'down the back' with those same useless Airlite headsets has done to my hearing !

[The Oberon]

Several years on V-force ground crew without any hearing protection, finally in early 67 we were issued with ear defenders. I went to stores to collect mine only to be given a deficiency chit because they didn't have any. I suppose that I could have torn the chit in half and stuffed half in each ear. It wasn't until the Vulcan arrived in Cyprus when I was issued with a pair, some of those nasty things with the oil filled pads that leaked within a couple of weeks and dribbled oil down your neck.

[just another jocky]

Many aircraft now require the use of Vamps, in-ear moulded ear defenders with a wired speaker to the helmet to try to mitigate the risk of hearing loss.

Could have done with them for 20 years on the Tornado!

[gums]

Salute!

Yeah, besides the jet noise, som medications can definitely cause problems, and tetracycline was one that we used a lot for infections in the 'nam days. It seemed to be worse the younger you were.

My own loss was due to one day on the flightline and I apparently got zapped by a T-37. The years of tests narrowed it down within a few months. The cochlea hairs had been damaged, and it didn't help that I flew another 19 years and a few thousand hours in the belly of the beast. My tinnitus is very loud, but I grew used to it and my brain "cuts it out" for the most part. It is also at a higher freq than my major loss, which is top dozen keys on a piano. The Viper was about like the T-37 Tweet, and the initial Thunderbirds started their motors using the back up fuel control unit, as it had much lower frequencies for some reason. And they wanted to start facing the crowd.

The U.S. Vets Administration gives me a little over $100 per month, and that is O.K. considering the small price that I paid compared to many of my friends I started with back in 1964.

Gums sends...

[Brian W May]

Hmn,
I must find out what 13000 hours on the C130K 'down the back' with those same useless Airlite headsets has done to my hearing !

PARDON !!?? (That's civvy for 'SAY AGAIN').

[Just This Once...]

Hmn,
I must find out what 13000 hours on the C130K 'down the back' with those same useless Airlite headsets has done to my hearing !

The path for ex-C130K dudes is an easy one. There was an infamous MoD document carefully produced detailing the impact to C130K aircrew hearing, the cost of a fix (ANR) and a final decision that is was 'cheaper to pay compensation' to the crews than provide additional hearing protection. Of course, the courts don't take kindly to that sort of decision making and the MoD has been hung by its own careful test and evaluation.

[Blossy]

I think it is almost inevitable to have hearing loss after having flown noisy types for years. Luckily I seem to have escaped suffering the worst effects but definitely have high tone loss.

[DCThumb]

Just this Once, do you have a copy of the letter...or perhaps

DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THE LETTER?

I might need it....

[carlos755]

I too spent too long on the C-130K/H along with the F-4 etc and would really appreciate a copy of said letter!

Cheers
Carl

[ancientaviator62]

Brian W,
not sure what your request is but the hours are correct. Not a lot in the context of almost 30 years on the 'K' as an ALM but in later years a lot of 'clerking' got in the way. I should add in my groundcrew years on the Javelin, Hunter and Lightning. Each had their own flavour of hearing damaging frequencies.

[Pontius Navigator]

deafish in his right ear got it on the basis of firing a .303 rifle.

I received around £1,350 which I thought was OK at the time. It has stymied me for the £250,000 I could get now.
At school our .303 range was in a quarry. My loss was also classic gunfire but I expect any claim should have been against the school.

However we were instructed not to wear the old G-helmet on the flight line as we could not hear a shouted warning - yeah right. 12 years later they started to consider proper hearing protection. My hearing loss and medical downgrading was from that period.

I retired 20 years on and was successful in getting an award. It was stated that it was for 'noise induced hearing loss' and would not get worse once away from that environment. Further deterioration would be age related.

A friend, ex-Lightnings and red Hawks, profoundly deaf, was refused any compensation.

FED, I wonder whether that compensation at the time could not be challenged today. My free NHS aids work quite well but spending ££££ on state of the art private ones are said to be better.

[Pontius Navigator]

I think it is almost inevitable to have hearing loss after having flown noisy types for years. Luckily I seem to have escaped suffering the worst effects but definitely have high tone loss.
Which is the hearing loss for which I received compensation.

[Pontius Navigator]

I posted this before but it bears repeating.

You can see your GP and get an NHS Audiologic assessment. A basic NHS aid fits behind the ear (BTE) and a tube carries the sound into a large moulded plug, although not now in many trusts. Spec Savers has been contracted to provide hearing aid services. The use a much thinner tube, practically invisible, and tiny plugs that fit right in the ear.

For my first SS aids I was given plugs without any test fitting. One was painful and I asked for a smaller plug; it worked. Sometime latter I found the other ear was also sore. A second smaller plug fixed that.

You can then get a new test every year or sooner if there is a problem. You are entitled to replacement every 3 years.

[DODGYOLDFART]

Hearing loss as a result of working in or around aircraft is something that the RAF has been aware of since at least the early 1960's. Some time back whilst working on Human Factors at Cranfield Uni. I came across a medic who had worked on a project at Farnborough looking into this problem. As far as he could remember this was either 1961/2. The project concluded that whilst most jets of the period were capable of damaging hearing the worst by far was the Gloster Javelin. This was apparently something to do with the harmonics created by the Sapphire engines mounted side by side.

[Ormeside28]

Shackleton ear!!

[6Z3]

PN. Interested in your advice that one is entitled to replacement aids every 3 years. At my last check up at my NHS hospital, the (jobsworth) audiologist advised that policy had changed and they only replace aids when they’re broke. My Oticon Spirit 3 aids are well over 5 yrs old, and another (less jobs worthy) audiologist suggested accidentally “dropping one in your coffee”. I went along some weeks later and said one aid was intermittent (couldn’t bring myself to deliberately damage it!), and the dear audiologist replaced the single “faulty” aid. So I have a nearly 6 yr old one and a new one, still both Oticon spirit 3. My surprise was that NHS hearing aids haven’t progressed at all in the last 6 years. My better half is convinced that my ability to hear things with these ones is getting markedly worse, though the NHS assessment disagrees.

Incidentally my hearing was noise induced as a result of Gazelle helicopters. I too made sure I had a record of the service doctor admitting it and took copies of my records before leaving the service (2005). The criteria for compensation in those days was you needed to demonstrate 20% disability to get a medical war pension. That equated to 50 dB over three frequency bands. Anything less than that was rewarded with a gratuity of around £1500 max. Nowadays you have a much bigger fight on your hands to prove service fault as they leverage in age related deafness. What helped my case was my indicating an intention to sue the RN for medical negligence as they continued to fly me knowing that my hearing had been damaged by flying. That smoothed the way for my claim to be accepted. I get around £300/month tax free.

[Pontius Navigator]

6z3, in 2017 I had problems with one aid. SpecSavers retuned it, i walked out and it was still u/s. Got a new appointment and the rule was replace both.

You need to challenge them.

[ancientaviator62]

I assume that MOD would claim that any hearing impairment in some of us older generation would be age related and not work related. As for medical records when I retired I signed a form to allow them to be sent to my GP. Despite several requests he never received them. Cock up or conspiracy ? I always assume the former.

[BEagle]

I also had to chase up the RAF to send my medical documents to the local GP after I'd left. They never cover that sort of practical thing at resettlement briefs...

Several months after I'd left, I received rather an acrimonious note from the dental section, demanding to know why I'd missed some appointment they'd made for me. My reply involved a sex and travel suggestion.

When I finally signed up with a local fang-farrier, I asked whether they needed my documents from the RAF. "Don't bother, they'll take ages and won't be much use - we can do a quick assessment of our own, which will be more accurate", they advised. Which indeed they did.

[matkat]

I had test done when I left they said i had less than 1% of totally disability and was entitled to nothing does anyone have contact details of someone that is dealing with this? I do receive a war pension (20%) for damage to both knees and a rotary cuff injury to me left arm.
Thanks in advance.

[matkat]

Anyone know who the Lawyers are?

[6Z3]

Saw this advertised in a local garden centre and sent away for their literature. Anyone had any experience of this organisation (UK Veteran’s Hearing Help) who purport to be operating on behalf of the RBL? I haven’t yet pursued this “too good to be true” offer, as I suspect the catch may be that they fund the totally free top of the range aids perhaps by using your war pension that you’re entitled to if you pass the criteria for the aids. There again I’m a helicopter pilot and by definition am a brooding introspective anticipator of trouble. Anyone tried it? If true, they’ve got to be better than my BTE Spirits with the ear moulds that the NHS provide.

https://www.uk-veterans-hearing-help.co.uk/

PS. Anyone come across Colin, the retired Sqn Ldr in the “about us” section, or indeed any of the other, disturbingly good looking team!

[ORAC]

matkat, Hugh James

https://twitter.com/HughJamesLegal/status/1126134916742303745

[ACW342]

Please see the thread "Hearing Aids" from Oct 2017, in particular my replies numbered 21, 44, and in particular no 49. For those who followed that thread my ENT referral finally came through after 80 weeks.

A342

[Pontius Navigator]

I assume that MOD would claim that any hearing impairment in some of us older generation would be age related and not work related. .Two points. They can tell the difference between age related deterioration and noise induced hearing loss.

More importantly is the evidential trail to NIHL before retirement. If you were not medically downgraded and you are not applying immediately after retirement then they have wriggle room. You would then need expert evidence that your NIHL was not from recent cause.

[Pontius Navigator]

I had test done when I left they said i had less than 1% of totally disability and was entitled to nothing does anyone have contact details of someone that is dealing with this? I do receive a war pension (20%) for damage to both knees and a rotary cuff injury to me left arm.
Thanks in advance.
matkat, they do not combine disabilities over 20%. My initial assessment was 19% (lump sum) with 4% for one and 15% the other. I can't remember which was which. On reassessment I was awarded that crucial 1% and got a pension. My next door neighbour was awarded 33% for burns and lung tissue damage. When I say he walks his dog every day and climbs mountains, do not think he had been faking. He is not as fit as he was prior to the petrol explosion.

[Pontius Navigator]

6z3, nothing ventured. I have just sent a message to them.

[tucumseh]

If anyone wants the Submission I was asked to prepare by DOR(Sea) in 1998, just ask. It was intended to be topped and tailed into an Air Staff Requirement, and specifically mentions both fixed and rotary, in all Services. Also, groundcrew. At the time, legal advice was 'the clock runs on litigation from now', as a fully integrated Helmet ANR system had been deployed (i.e. powered from, and part of, the intercom), and the Digital ANR was under development to bring the noise dose below the mooted 75dB(A). Other in-ear devices that have become popular were rejected by the Services at the time - ANR was the agreed solution. OR did not proceed. It was left to whoever had the gumption to do it on any given aircraft. Some of the above comments are true - few gave a toss and I'm glad the court has taken a dim view.

I'd say the date could be pushed back a few years, as the RAF had run a programme for Harrier in the 80s, but run up against the problem of miniaturising it to fit in a Mk10 (?) helmet. However, they gave up instead of committing more to the Applied Research Package. Sea King AEW & HC4 picked it up again in 1994, and it entered service in 1998.

[Pontius Navigator]

TUC, "At the time, legal advice was 'the clock runs on litigation from now', '

Not sure on this. If ear protection for engine noise for instance was not issued then people serving at that time, is pre-74 were highly susceptible to high tone deafness. It was certainly known.

From 1978 improved protection was available, but was it effective? Did everyone have it?

From about 1990 wearing such protection was enforced, but again, was it effective?

Simply setting a date does not address the issue of those already exposed compared with those who subsequently did not use the kit provided.

​​​​​​

[ACW342]

6z3 I would suggest that you go, as in my entry above, to the Hearing Aids thread in 2017. My replies, numbers 21, 44 and 49 should help. I suspect that the website you pointed out does exactly the same as Specsavers did for me, help with the paperwork, do a hearing test and look at your service medical records to note any deterioration compared to your in/leaving service records. The Veterans Hearing Fund, which is where your website will be seeking funding from, is funded by governments Veterans Agency and administered by the Royal British Legion. Contact your nearest legion branch and they will help you sort things out. I was in our local shopping mall today and there were loads of screeching kids and babies. I switched my aids off. Blissful, they work both ways

[tucumseh]

Pontius

The clock I was speaking of ran from the date the risk of not meeting the 85dB(A) exposure limit could be reasonably eliminated, with a period of grace to allow for implementation. One would have to look up when the 85dB(A) limit was introduced.

Many such 'legal' requirements were only taken seriously when individuals lost Crown Immunity in the late 80s. As I alluded to, there was a very conscientious Group Captain who managed an Applied Research Package, but he got precious little support and when he retired the RAF lost a 'champion'. It was pure luck that the RN's first formal requirement to mention the limit as an 'essential' (Sea King AEW Radar System Upgrade) was endorsed just before he left, and he was tracked down and his files transferred. As it happened, no bidder was compliant (some suggesting the main gearbox be redesigned), so the MoD(PE) Directorate took it on at risk (using underspends/offsets). The trouble with this approach is that you get the naysayers queueing up to criticise you for wasting money - as they did, frequently. £758 per helmet mod set. £500k+ compo, and more to come? Do the arithmetic.

Hitherto, as you say, hearing loss was well-known, and presumably someone deemed it tolerable and ALARP - because there was no engineering solution for aircrew using a helmet, primarily because the electronics were not small enough to fit in an earshell. For example, Racal had a pretty good system (but not as good as MoD's), but it didn't fit. (They also supply a very simplistic broadband ANR for army vehicles, but that is unsuitable and unsafe in an aircraft).

The point I'm making is that the award to the serviceman will have been based partly on when the solution was available, and what MoD did about it. That was the legal advice to us in the early 90s. The practical problem was, OR would go to the scientists at Farnborough (superb), who would produce reams of reports full of mind-numbing decibel notation. OR would topple. The AEW programme used a different ploy, expressing it as 'allowable flying hours'. The s**t hit the fan when this was calculated to be a mere 59 hours per year (and the subject of a Jane's article), the alternative being to give an 8-aircraft squadron several hundred aircrew. Questions were asked in the House. £758 per helmet mod became a no-brainer, even to beancounters.

[Ormeside28]

Many years ago and a long time after I left the R.A.F my hearing was checked and I was given an award of, if I remember correctly, £1500. This was put down to flying several thousand hours in the left hand seat of a Shackleton listening to the mighty Griffons. Then a few years later ( don’t ask!), I was asked to go for a further test and was diagnosed at over 20% loss of hearing. I was given a war pension of £1500 annually, I had to pay back the initial award but have enjoyed many years of the present one. For those “Growlers” still with us, try again. Best wishes

[Pontius Navigator]

I had to pay back the initial award but have enjoyed many years of the present one. For those “Growlers” still with us, try again. Best wishes
That is not what happened with me.
I can remember exactly but it was an award of, say £4,500. I was then reassessed at 20% as you say, but as it was more than 3 years after the initial award there was no 'mark time'. Had it been after a year then the pension payment would have been deferred until year 3.

Two points AFAIR, you must submit your application within 6 months of receiving the application forms. Any award is backdated to the date of submission. It is not quick, my present application was submitted before Christmas.
​​​​

[matkat]

matkat, Hugh James

https://twitter.com/HughJamesLegal/status/1126134916742303745
Thank You ORAC

[Pontius Navigator]

I contacted the Veterans Hearing Help. I contacted them yesterday and received the application pack today. From their website:

Samantha and Ben Bennett began the UK Veterans Hearing Help in response to Ben's subsequent hearing loss from his 13 years in the Royal Artillery. When Ben at 43 years of age started to struggle with the volume of the TV, and in groups of people, Sam, who was already a Hearing Aid Audiologist with their children (also Audiologists) diagnosed Ben with a high-frequency hearing loss which affected his clarity. They quite quickly fitted Ben with hearing aids with the support of a manufacturer and when Sam and Ben went to the next reunion, a lot of Bens’ colleagues commented on his hearing aids and their issues.

I think they oversee your application to the RBL Veterans Hearing Fund. The service is free to us and they probably cost their costs from the profit margin on the hearing aids.

The RBL VHF is funded with £13m from Libor Scandal. It is drawn down over 5 years. In two years over 1,000 veterans have received help. That £13m will not last more than the 5 years at that rate.

Apparently the process is slow and can take a year.

[wokkamate]

I joined in 1993 and have flown helicopters since then until 6 years ago. My hearing started heading downhill in 2002 until now when I am MLD as a result, after a downgrade in 2016 FFS..... and H ‘very bad’ in each ear (high tone/speech range) diagnosed by RAF doctors and recorded as NIHL. I guess 3 years on Pumas and 15 years on Chinooks will do that (almost all Pre-CEPs). Funnily enough since I stopped flying and started staff work in earnest any further hearing loss has been considered age related.... think I have a case? Should I flag it now or wait for retirement aged 60, though? Also does anyone have a letter/note that was written years ago about the SH 4B4L helmet Pre CEPs and how bad they were at noise reduction?

[tucumseh]

Also does anyone have a letter/note that was written years ago about the SH 4B4L helmet Pre CEPs and how bad they were at noise reduction?

'The acoustic attenuation of the Mk4 flying helmet...' Royal Aircraft Establishment Technical Memorandum FS171 HMSO 1978. (GM Rood - Dr Graham Rood).

[wokkamate]

'The acoustic attenuation of the Mk4 flying helmet...' Royal Aircraft Establishment Technical Memorandum FS171 HMSO 1978. (GM Rood - Dr Graham Rood).

Thank you. Tried to Google that but it didn’t come up as a search result.... a QQ study did though, which is also useful!

[Innominate]

Rood's Tech Memo is available in the National Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13521897

[cliver029]

Hearing loss as a result of working in or around aircraft is something that the RAF has been aware of since at least the early 1960's. Some time back whilst working on Human Factors at Cranfield Uni. I came across a medic who had worked on a project at Farnborough looking into this problem. As far as he could remember this was either 1961/2. The project concluded that whilst most jets of the period were capable of damaging hearing the worst by far was the Gloster Javelin. This was apparently something to do with the harmonics created by the Sapphire engines mounted side by side.

Early sixties, umm. Aircraftprep at Lyneham, as I have said elsewhere if eardefenders existed at all they were a plastic shell will a tiny piece of foam glued inside the body and fitted with pads filled with glycerine which leaked almost as soon as you wore them dribbling down the neck which was uncomfortable and cold.
Engine runs on Comet twos created a "blue note" and as a very junior radar mec on the shift it always fell to me to man the fire bottles so lots of noise there. And then Hunter avpin starts, like a lot of you the list is endless.

[tucumseh]

Mk4 helmet passive attenuation

https://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc291/exploringtheblue/Mk4%20passive_zpssttw9m0w.jpg (https://s214.photobucket.com/user/exploringtheblue/media/Mk4%20passive_zpssttw9m0w.jpg.html)


Try asking MoD for the noise measurement reports of each aircraft/environment that were carried out many yonks ago. Depending on the Trainer/Simulator, you should always remember take into account hours there, as many are designed to reproduce aircraft noise.

My advice would be to speak to QinetiQ at Farnborough. They hold all MoD data. 01252 395496. Ask for the Human Acoustics Technical Leader. She's brilliant.

[Pontius Navigator]

I had contacted them on 14th May and was warned it was a slow process and could take a year. I contacted the Veterans' Agency for a copy of my original award and was told they were very busy and it could take some time.

Yesterday I was contacted and have an appointment on 4 June.

[57mm]

If you wear hearing aids, you are eligible for a Disabled Persons Railcard; apply through the Railcard website. You need to provide proof of necessity for hearing aids (issue from NHS or private purchase receipt). Mine saves me around 30% on fares. Go for it!

[Pontius Navigator]

If you wear hearing aids, you are eligible for a Disabled Persons Railcard; apply through the Railcard website. You need to provide proof of necessity for hearing aids (issue from NHS or private purchase receipt). Mine saves me around 30% on fares. Go for it!
And your carer too.

They do not need their own card.

[sharpend]

5000 hours of using those useless 'Airlite' headsets in the Vickers Funbus hasn't done my hearing any good....


Not just that Beagle, but in my case firing 303 rifles at South Cerney.

[Pontius Navigator]

Not just that Beagle, but in my case firing 303 rifles at South Cerney.
With that ineffective cotton wool.

Personally I think our school full bore range in a quarry didn't help.

[BEagle]

Probably worse was our school's indoor .22 range, where the crack of several .22 Martini or Lee-Enfields being fired simultaneously echoed around the concrete walls...

At least at a full-bore range, the sound dissipated quicker.

[Blossy]

Surely virtually every member of the armed forces could claim as they all would have heard shooting.
Gentlefolk let me ask you - how do you think tank crews and artillery men would have responded to the question?

[orca]

In short sentences comprised solely of monosyllabic words?

[Pontius Navigator]

Surely virtually every member of the armed forces could claim as they all would have heard shooting.
Gentlefolk let me ask you - how do you think tank crews and artillery men would have responded to the question?
Blossy true the issue is proving it.
As aircrew had to undergo an annual medical their healthy was monitored more closely than non aircrew. As flying pay depended on maintenance of one's medical category aircrew did whatever they could to avoid the witch doctor. However once the inevitable occurred your condition was recorded, assessed, and monitored regularly.

I was naturally upset at being downgraded to A2. However on one particular sortie my colleague, ex-Shacks even, could hear chatter on one of the VHF Channels which no one else on the crew could hear. Volume controls worked most of the time but that proved I had significant hearing loss.

Noise damage applied not just to aircrew or engineers but to people near the aircraft noise. Workers near aircraft operations needed hearing protection too but never got it. I suspect many never knew they had noise induced hearing loss and were eligible for help.

​​​

[The Oberon]

I remember being told, by a Regiment Cpl., that if I kept my mouth open when firing the SMLE, it would equalise the pressure and prevent hearing damage.

[tucumseh]

However on one particular sortie my colleague, ex-Shacks even, could hear chatter on one of the VHF Channels which no one else on the crew could hear. Volume controls worked most of the time but that proved I had significant hearing loss.

Noise damage applied not just to aircrew or engineers but to people near the aircraft noise. Workers near aircraft operations needed hearing protection too but never got it. I suspect many never knew they had noise induced hearing loss and were eligible for help.

​​​

In SK6, analog ANR trials demonstrated a 78% increase in audio detection range using AQS902G-DS. Boscombe's sonics rear seater reckoned that brought the SK6 close to Wessex performance! £758 per person for 78%, instead of £3M+ every 18-24 months squeezing single figures via software.

Agree about groundcrew. Just needed a little more work as their headgear had different size earshells. (Bearing in mind at the time anything in-ear was rejected out of hand by OR). The main problem was logistical, but the digital system which was ready in 2000 would have mostly cracked that, as much of the support would then be common with aircrew. They were included in the proposed pan-MoD Staff Requirement in 1996, but powers that be didn't proceed.

[kintyred]

I have many thousands of hours on Chinook without any hearing loss whatsoever. I use the unaugmented Mk 4 helmet and each time I plug in, I have to turn down the previous occupant's intercom and radio volumes. Everyone seems to use CEP or VAMPS and I wonder if these devices, while cutting out background noise, force aircrew to turn up their volume controls and thus receive a higher peak volume at their ear. Will there be any long-term effect on their hearing as a result of this higher peak volume?

[tucumseh]

kintyred

Long time since I've done this, but as part of the Sea King programme in the mid-90s, and helmet mod 080, a new design of capsule padding was introduced. Aircrew were found to have consciously chosen ill-fitting (loose) helmets for comfort. But any airgap would increase the likelihood of the ANR feeding back (squealing). The intent was also to improve passive attenuation; and comfort and fit when wearing spectacles. You may have these better earshells. At the time mod 080 was mandatory for ASaC7 only, but inevitably other users would get new padding when it was due for replacement.

The final solution to the problem was to fund made-to-measure helmets; but I'm unsure how many took up the offer. I seem to recall they were about twice the cost of an ordinary Mk4, but nothing in the scheme of things. In the end, the entire AEW2 and ASaC7 ANR programmes were actually funded through Westland efficiency and us getting a rebate (as they're capped on profit).

Good question about long term effect. The quick answer is, intercom noise contributes a little to noise dose, which is measured against constant exposure over an 8 hour period. Intercom is harsh/peaky, given the typical tels frequency range of 300-3300Hz. But it's not constant, so is not necessarily damaging. ASaC7 had a new, excellent intercom design, with new high quality audio amps. A design aim was that one would have one's preferred settings on the Station Box (say, all pots at 12 o'clock) and it would be the same in any cab. Hitherto this was impossible in either an Ultra or SG Brown system, as the cheapo amps had too wide a tolerance. The new ones had a 'smoother' sound, and of course there was less influence from external noise. The other thing I recall is that the helmet transducers in a Mk4 are cheap crap. A decent one costs more than the entire Mk4 helmet.

Also regarding volume. Mod 080 mandated sole use of a single mic type. (Racal boom). Hitherto, AEW2 aircrew had a concession to use Socapex, if they wished. Anyone with a Racal boom, plugging in to a Station set for Socapex, would find it too loud, as the mic sensitivity was very different. Socapex was perceived as 'low noise', but using it meant you were overdriving the cheap amps. Signal level doesn't equate to quality.

Hope this helps.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Kintyred - everyone "seems to use CEPs or VAMPS" because their use is mandated (unless you follow the incredibly restrictive flying hours limits for an unaugmented helmet). As for intercom volume difference, you can't compare volume you experience in an unaugmented mk4 with CEP/VAMPs, as the intercom system is driving a different speaker and therefore has an entirely different volume at the ear for each device. Evidence from the Tutor fleet firmly suggests that noise exposure from the intercom/radio is lessened with CEP/VAMP due to the ability to turn the volume of the intercom down and still be able to hear it over the passively isolated background noise. The main problem I had on the Tutor with CEPs was that the stall warner became significantly less compelling as it was not integrated into the intercom, but instead was a buzzer in the cockpit.

FWIW, the evidence on hearing damage is pretty well established, though the studies and evidence on exactly how much hearing protection by helmet and passive augmentation gives you is somewhat contentious and depends on a number of factors including, as in Tuc's example, how well one's helmet fits! I know that in some areas airborne time with VAMPs is restricted due to the risk of exceeding noise exposure limits. The only two things I'd say in addition to "loud noise over a long time causes hearing loss" are:

a) everyone has an anecdote that bucks a well established statistical trend (grandma smoking twenty a day and living to 100 does not make smoking safer) and
b) ac noise is definitely lessened wearing augmented helmet (incl CEP/VAMP/ANR where type applicable) compared with a standard helmet.

Having, on my own ac type, moved from unaugmented to CEP, the difference in clarity of intercom is incredible and does lead one to wonder how we managed before! Every now and again (CEP failure etc) I fly without for short periods and that impression is reinforced.

[kintyred]

Thanks Tuc,

Illuminating as ever!

I was on exchange with a NATO partner, whose aircrew used the US Army helmets and struggled to hear intercom and radio calls (SASless I'd be interested in your comments). I introduced them to Helmets International given my positive experiences of the Mk4 but the option was rejected on the grounds of costs. They opted for CEP, and I participated in their programme. I didn't find them beneficial.

pba

I'm not suggesting that my experience should be the basis for hearing protection. I merely point out that the Mk4 helmet can work in a very noisy environment, though not for everyone. I was just relating out my experiences and wondering about the consequences for using increased intercom/radio volumes.

[tucumseh]

pba

Thanks. All too new for me. As I said before, in-ear devices weren't wanted in the 90s, so the technical solution was ANR (or a silent main gearbox).

Apart from the reduction in noise dose, the other crucial test was speech intelligibility. One of the reasons (+ TEMPEST) why ANR was fully integrated into the comms system/aircraft, meaning the helmet became a comms LRU as well as an AEA. Farnborough have a dedicated lab, and local students were watered, fed and handed a tenner to come in for a session. They wore a helmet, it was fed with real aircraft noise from a survey, and they wrote down the words they heard. So, you could 'change aircraft' midstream. The main work in this area was done during Digital ANR development, which was completed in 2000, and led to adaptable software. I think it's one of those areas that will be forever in development.

Your mention of warning tones makes me twitch. Not integrated, no fly - that was the rule. Breaching that led to the loss of ZG710 in 2003. A fundamental part of the programme was checking all warning tones, and adjusting them if necessary. Conversely, one odd problem was the crews could hear the GPS ToD update tone every second, which was reduced.

It's success can be easily appreciated by one fact. Without ANR, AEW2 allowable flying hours were 59 per year. With Mk1 analog (simple, battery powered), 315. Post-padding upgrade, full integration (aircraft power, etc) and lessons learned from trials, 1350 in the front, 700 in the back. A good example of how big a difference seat position makes. Your friendly project team should have the equivalent data for current kit and aircraft.

[OKOC]

If anyone wants the Submission I was asked to prepare by DOR(Sea) in 1998, just ask. It was intended to be topped and tailed into an Air Staff Requirement, and specifically mentions both fixed and rotary, in all Services. Also, groundcrew. At the time, legal advice was 'the clock runs on litigation from now', as a fully integrated Helmet ANR system had been deployed (i.e. powered from, and part of, the intercom), and the Digital ANR was under development to bring the noise dose below the mooted 75dB(A). Other in-ear devices that have become popular were rejected by the Services at the time - ANR was the agreed solution. OR did not proceed. It was left to whoever had the gumption to do it on any given aircraft. Some of the above comments are true - few gave a toss and I'm glad the court has taken a dim view.

I'd say the date could be pushed back a few years, as the RAF had run a programme for Harrier in the 80s, but run up against the problem of miniaturising it to fit in a Mk10 (?) helmet. However, they gave up instead of committing more to the Applied Research Package. Sea King AEW & HC4 picked it up again in 1994, and it entered service in 1998.
Hi, could you be so kind and PM me the Submission. Many thanks, OKOC

[weemonkey]

Retired a couple of years ago after working for some 30- years in the back of a noisy ac. I first noticed
that my hearing had been affected, in my case tinnitus, when I could not hear the majority of 'beeps'
during my hearing test. I did not mention it until the doctor commented that my hearing was still fine.
I went back after 6- months for a further test and all was well they said. I now have constant high pitch ringing
in both ears. When I left the RAF I requested all of my medical records, but strangely enough there was no
mention of my visits.

I have just today requested [via my GP] my service medical records.

I also type listening to the bells......

[Pontius Navigator]

I got my med records last month. Took about 2 months - no charge.

The records were batched. There were some omissions where i had been sick away from base.

My first audiometry test was in 1981. I was immediately downgraded. Every subsequent test at my.annual medical was recorded though there were variations in some years. I must get round to checking year on year.

Before 1981 tests were down with the 'standard med assistant whisper down a dark corridor.