More Drone rumours

[BVRAAM]

I've been digging some more on the RPAS issue and I have some more rumours to add to this aptly named rumour network:

Soon, the Remotely Piloted Aircraft System-Pilot branch will no longer exist as a single Branch, instead there will be a fourth stream in to the Pilot branch and RPAS-P will move over to the Brown Pilot's brevet as they ditch the Blue and will be able to receive full "flying pay" which is now known as recruitment and retention pay, I think. The streams will be:

Pilot - Fast-Jet
Pilot - Rotary Wing
Pilot - Multi-Engine
Pilot - ISTAR
From what I can tell, one can choose to specialise in RPAS from the start as an ISTAR Pilot but the other three will remain as normal. There will be no restrictions to 'manned' (for lack of a better word) aircraft from RPAS assets because all Pilots will have a full Instrument Rating for flying the Reaper and Protector in UK airspace.
39 Sqn is drawing down from Creech AFB and they will be moving to RAF Waddington to permanently team up with XIII Sqn, which means operators are not backwards and forwards the U.S and the UK along with operational deployments for LRE duties and also potential Exercises. This works better for families and it may be one answer to the RPAS retention headache.

There is virtually no holding time for RPAS operators compared to their 'manned' counterparts; it's currently 7.5 years and counting for fast-jet pilots and a fair chunk for the others. I know of one young man who has only been in the Air Force for a few years and has seen operational service, whereas those on the 'manned' system currently for the most part are just starting EFT after the same period!
The OCU will remain at Creech AFB as a permanent detachment of 54 Sqn, but after that 6 month course, Captaincy is achieved requiring only a weapons work up to achieve CRS.
The best part for guys who are like me in their 20's is that, due to this, the age limit is raised to 33, but I suspect it will still remain 26 for DE Pilots.

Hopefully we can keep this thread updated as more information becomes available. Good times for the RAF!

[newt]

Don’t suppose they need some of us old fellas with lots of hours?..........no I thought not...........but we would be cheap and only require a small parking space for our zimmers!

[unmanned_droid]

Don’t suppose they need some of us old fellas with lots of hours?..........no I thought not...........but we would be cheap and only require a small parking space for our zimmers!

Ha, yeah, and I'd be very interested in RPAS as a second career in my mid 30's!

[Background Noise]

Don’t suppose they need some of us old fellas with lots of hours?..........no I thought not...........but we would be cheap and only require a small parking space for our zimmers!
You could do it from your retirement home!

[2 TWU]

Newt’s retirement home? Security clearance could be a tad problematic in the local boozer!

[BVRAAM]

To the chap who PM'd me but hasn't emptied his inbox, could you make space and then PM me again please?

Cheers.

[heights good]

Not the place to give details but your post is half way correct and is lacking in some detail in other places.

HG

[BVRAAM]

Not the place to give details but your post is half way correct and is lacking in some detail in other places.

HG
Respectfully I would say that of course it's the place to give details, it's a rumour site and I started this thread for people like me who have their mind open to RPAS as well as manned flying.

There's nothing classified here and if there was, well you'd have just breached the rules by confirming it as "half correct" anyway, in fairness.

[Chris Kebab]

...a rumour site for "professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls", etc, etc.

Just saying :-)

[Nomad2]

Is it possible to earn medals as a RPAS pilot?

Perhaps the Queens Gallantry Medal, for dropping a bomb on someone while sipping a coffee a long way away?

[newt]

Well I think I need a change of career and this would suit me down to the ground! Air conditioned office in charge of a machine that can be more effective than any manned machine! No need to put my ass on the line! Top cover from the CIA man sat on my shoulder! Oh and the chance of winning a medal! Got to be done!

[ShotOne]

Lots of RAF personnel get medals -only a very small handful for being in harm’s way.

[Miles Magister]

Perhaps the Queens Gallantry Medal, for dropping a bomb on someone while sipping a coffee a long way away?
Dropping a bomb whilst sipping a coffee a long way away (from home). Just like being on the Mighty Hunter!!!

[Training Risky]

Lots of RAF personnel get medals -only a very small handful for being in harm’s way.
Only too true!

I have just been turned down by the Medals office for a (retrospective) Op SHADER medal on the basis that ISTAR crews sipping coffee in Waddington or Cyprus were contributing more op effectiveness than we targeteers in PJHQ. I also didn't qualify for the Non-article 5 medal for ELLAMY/Libya in 2011 for the same reason, while Tonka engineers in Italy did.

Go figure.:rolleyes:

[heights good]

Don’t suppose they need some of us old fellas with lots of hours?..........no I thought not...........but we would be cheap and only require a small parking space for our zimmers!

Actually, Manning is.... Google RAF Rejoiners.

[BVRAAM]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/631x793/reaperrebadge_810916845bff8ee0de1dc2678eb6a2d98b65648d.jpg

[Timelord]

Well, like many on here I admit to being from a previous generation: but proper pilot’s wings, for an RPAS pilot. Really? I do not doubt their skill, the length of their training or the stresses their particular job entails, but when all is said and done they conduct their business safe and sound in an ISO container at a friendly base which is not what the emblem represents.

[BEagle]

Timelord , how right you are!

Drone operators deserve recognition, but NOT the RAF Flying Badge unless they've previously completed RAF flying training.

[Lima Juliet]

when all is said and done they conduct their business safe and sound in an ISO container at a friendly base which is not what the emblem represents

Surely the emblem (or Flying Badge) represents a badge that means you have completed a recognised flying course only. Queen’s Regulation (QR) 206 is quite explicit in this case:

A flying badge, being a qualification badge, is not to be regarded as either a decoration or the equivalent of a regimental badge.

This posted elsewhere on the forum - clearly states it is the course that qualifies them:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/534x676/wings_certificate_1bbc561120cbee930ecc0fb4ec5beddb949fa365.g if

Then there is a further little ‘gotcha’ in QRs in QRJ727:

A member of aircrew who is qualified for more than one badge is not to wear a badge other than that appropriate to the particular flying duty in which they are currently categorised or mustered, except where MOD authority is granted. An individual who is entitled to wear a badge and is undergoing training for another aircrew category may continue to wear the badge of the former category until award of the flying badge of the new category.

So as this QR stands then all pilots - those with brown laurel wreaths included - would have to wear the former blue laurel leaf badge for RPAS flying. I can just imagine that! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Lima Juliet]

BEagle

unless they've previously completed RAF flying training.

Which they have - the RPAS Flying Training pipeline, which is different just like the Fast Jet, Multi-Engine and Rotary Wing ones?

[Training Risky]

BEagle



Which they have - the RPAS Flying Training pipeline, which is different just like the Fast Jet, Multi-Engine and Rotary Wing ones?

Ha ha ha! Describing it as merely different is like saying a car is different to a boat, or a model aircraft is different to a manned aeroplane.
Seeing as the RPAS FT course consists of c. 40 hours on the Tutor, the graduates were lucky even to get 'Blue' RAF wings. Maybe the UAS 'Budgie' would be more appropriate! (This is not meant in any way to denigrate the important job RPAS operators do though... It is as important as IntOs, Targeteers, Armourers. One team etc...)

https://www.raf.mod.uk/recruitment/roles/roles-finder/aircrew/remotely-piloted-aircraft-system-rpas-pilot:

SPECIALIST TRAINING
Your specialist training begins with a bespoke version of Elementary Flying Training (EFT), including ground school and then flying the Tutor aircraft. You will complete the Tutor training with an Instrument Flight Test and Final Handling Test before being awarded RPAS(P) wings. You will then go to the Reaper Formal Training Unit (FTU) in the USA to train on the aircraft you will be flying operationally.

The FTU is completed at Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico, USA. You will spend 6 months completing the ground school elements and learning how to operate the aircraft, including weapons.

[Bob Viking]

FWIW I couldn’t care less what badge the RPAS pilots wear. If it has been deemed appropriate for them to wear the RAF flying badge then so be it. As a current RAF pilot it doesn’t offend me in the slightest.

Times have changed. I mean no offense to BEagle and Timelord but I don’t think it matters what long-since retired pilots think. Reaper is a vital part of our current frontline inventory. The people who fly them are pilots.

Has anyone ever become annoyed that WW2 Spitfire Pilots got awarded the RAF flying badge after such a short training regime?

BV

[Timelord]

Me, a pilot? Now that is offensive!

[Training Risky]

Reaper is a vital part of our current frontline inventory. The people who fly them are pilots.

Has anyone ever become annoyed that WW2 Spitfire Pilots got awarded the RAF flying badge after such a short training regime?

BV
Bob, I hear what you say, Reaper is indeed vital. So is SHORAD. Does that mean that when the RAF Regt 'flew' Rapier, all the Rapier crews and Rock QWIs should have received wings (and not just on their right shoulder!)? If not, why not? After all, Rapier flew, was operated by a man on the ground and achieved kinetic effects. Perfect parallel if you ask me... Maybe all the current Royal Artillery SHORAD guys should get wings?

And WW2 Spitfire pilots still flew in the ruddy thing and many lost their lives doing so...regardless of how long spent on an OTU. Poor comparison!

[Bob Viking]

The regiment guys never had to land a Rapier!

I take your point about the Spitfire thing. However, as things stand not all pilots complete the same course to get their wings anyway. I don’t see that this is any different. It’s certainly not going to twist my knickers.

BV

[Timelord]

I get that wings have always been awarded at the end of a given course of flying training, but surely their continued wearing depends on continuing flying, at least for one tour. To my dinosaur nav’s brain, flying means being in the air. But hey ho, words can mean what you want them to mean (1984, I think, or was it Alice through the looking glass?)

BV, I know that my opinion doesn’t MATTER, but debate on here would be pretty thin if it was restricted to those whose opinion DOES matter!

Best regards to all wearing the uniform, whatever badges they have

TL

[dook]

Good grief Bob V.

When I knew you I had no idea that you wore womens' underwear !

[DODGYOLDFART]

Ah, but only of the finest silk I understand.

[Bob Viking]

Only the best, naturally.

Timelord, you’re right. Healthy debate is a good thing. But I am right and you are wrong.

BV

😉🤣

[Timelord]

Timelord, you’re right. Healthy debate is a good thing. But I am right and you are wrong.

BV

😉🤣
Exactly. I can remember a few debriefs along those lines.

[Lima Juliet]

BV - well said! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[heights good]

Well, like many on here I admit to being from a previous generation: but proper pilot’s wings, for an RPAS pilot. Really? I do not doubt their skill, the length of their training or the stresses their particular job entails, but when all is said and done they conduct their business safe and sound in an ISO container at a friendly base which is not what the emblem represents.

The wings are for being qualified as a pilot of a military aircraft. Have you been to Waddo and actually seen what the guys do?

[Fluffy Bunny]

No. But I saw Mike Brewer do it on the telly... If that fat knacker can manage it..... ;)

[heights good]

No. But I saw Mike Brewer do it on the telly... If that fat knacker can manage it..... ;)

Flying is not hard.... A monkey got itself into space :E

[Training Risky]

The wings are for being qualified as an Remote Operator of a military aircraft. Have you been to Waddo and actually seen what the guys do?

Fixed that for you!

[heights good]

Fixed that for you!​​​​​​

It's quite telling that it seems to be the old and retired folk that are most averse to RPAS pilots being recognised as such. If you have not been to Waddo and seen exactly what the Reaper crews do then you are commenting from a position of conjecture and opinions based on at best mistruths, rumour or deep bias.

Actual hands on flying of an aircraft is not what pilots are employed for in the military, otherwise The RAF would employ your average Easyjet level pilot.

Military pilots have to 'fight' an aircraft by managing complicated systems, multiple crew, numerous radios, understand a complicated and, most of the time, incomplete and confusing tactical picture whilst staying within the every moving goalposts of ATC, LOAC, ROE, TD, GASOs, and 20 other documents and policies. All whilst being shot at, trying to understand foreign aircrew and procedures, coordinating several other assets, dealing with an emergency in marginal weather and immense pressure to ensure the goods guys dont die.... THAT is why the military has a different calibre of pilot.

now try making all of those decisions with 500 other people in the CAOC, DGCS MoD etc from SAC to 4* rank analysing EVERY decision before phoning directly into the cockpit to tell about how your decision as the aircraft captain is not what THEY want! That is exactly what RPAS ops are for young kids who are 18-24 months along the line from day 1 at IOT.

By the time your average FJ mate is day CR after 7-10 yrs and JUST starting to be productive your RPAS pilot has 3 - 4000 OPERATIONAL hours, has dropped OPERATIONAL ordnance, has a huge wealth of ISR knowledge, operational planning experience, intimate knowledge of how a war is fought at the tactical to strategic level.

Times have moved on, your opinions, based on FACTS, should probably consider do the same if you dont want to look like you are out of touch.

If it's good enough for the adults in charge at the Air Force Board, perhaps we should trust them a little more, no?

[orca]

I agree. So long as you mean that RPAS operators don’t get shot at and marginal weather never puts their safety at risk.

Very impressed with the set up at Waddo. Amazing capability.

[Timelord]

HG,

Thank you for explaining all that, I had no idea!

As for” trusting the Air Force Board “no”...,er No.

[heights good]

I agree. So long as you mean that RPAS operators don’t get shot at and marginal weather never puts their safety at risk.

Very impressed with the set up at Waddo. Amazing capability.



Absolutely. I was meaning military pilots in general, not specifically RPAS.

[heights good]

HG,

Thank you for explaining all that, I had no idea!

As for” trusting the Air Force Board “no”...,er No.


I think you have hit the nail on the head, most people have no idea and revert back to what they know as their barometer. I would encourage everyone who has not done so, to approach the Waddo about a visit, if it is within your remit to do so. It is a HUGE eye-opener; warfare and conventional thinking has evolved significantly.

RPAS is a COMPLETELY different mindset and skill set which has some really young kids with little experience making some pretty strategic decisions, albeit with plenty of support from the Sqn and additional 'support' from the 500 other long screwdrivers :E

[Training Risky]

Not trying to be obstinate over this just to troll. I have a serious point to make. I have been on both sides of this particular fence.

I take issue with your point above about pilots being employed primarily as weapons system operators as opposed to needing ‘hands-on’ poling skills. Although I didn’t qualify as CR (that’s another thread entirely!) I did a lot of low level flying, trooping and IFR on Chinooks. I won’t bore you with the details but it takes tolerance to fatigue, sweat, vibration, spatial awareness and G to do it; not to mention CRM, leadership in the air and a hard-to-define notion of having ‘skin in the game’.


My ground tours involved targeteering and approving PW4 from Reaper in a CAOC, and Stormshadow on GR4 from the UK. Not going to say too much more on that, but I never thought for a minute that I was ‘flying’ my bomb as it hit the target. And nobody I worked with who didn’t wear wings claimed that they were doing the same job and taking the same risks as the tonka crews.

Just my view is all. (Ditto the AF Board. Self-selecting, self-serving management-speak gurus the lot of them).

[Timelord]

HG, that was sarcasm!

TL

[heights good]

HG, that was sarcasm!

TL

So you DO trust the Air Force Board?!? :sad:

[heights good]

Not trying to be obstinate over this just to troll. I have a serious point to make. I have been on both sides of this particular fence.

I take issue with your point above about pilots being employed primarily as weapons system operators as opposed to needing ‘hands-on’ poling skills. Although I didn’t qualify as CR (that’s another thread entirely!) I did a lot of low level flying, trooping and IFR on Chinooks. I won’t bore you with the details but it takes tolerance to fatigue, sweat, vibration, spatial awareness and G to do it; not to mention CRM, leadership in the air and a hard-to-define notion of having ‘skin in the game’.


My ground tours involved targeteering and approving PW4 from Reaper in a CAOC, and Stormshadow on GR4 from the UK. Not going to say too much more on that, but I never thought for a minute that I was ‘flying’ my bomb as it hit the target. And nobody I worked with who didn’t wear wings claimed that they were doing the same job and taking the same risks as the tonka crews.

Just my view is all. (Ditto the AF Board. Self-selecting, self-serving management-speak gurus the lot of them).

I may not have explained things well, apologies.

I am not saying for a second that pilots just operate systems, quite the opposite in fact as that is what Easyjet guys do. My point was that it is mission management, working as a crew and understanding the big picture that is the hard bit. Flying a circuit, understanding rules of the air, RT, nav are taught as part of the PPL syllabus. Operating a low level, whilst not a civilian skill is not overly difficult with a bit of practice.

Regarding spatial awareness, you have shown a real lack of understanding of the nuances of RPAS with your comments, as do a lot of others. It is way easier to look out a window, have your crewman tell you or ATC give you a steer when trying to work out where you are or what threats are abound. Try doing that in a CAS stack with a 2D TV screen, no ATC, a foreign JTAC, 500' separation, one frequency and 20+ assets. The assets are all trying to chat whilst your working hard to stay within a tiny piece of airspace, typing in mIRC to get a clearance, you mIRC drops out (again!) whilst trying to engage a moving target in a piece of airspace you are not yet cleared in... Yes, some of those problems are not unique to RPAS but are made WAY more difficult. SA is something that is really easy to lose and something that all crews work hard at not losing. Oh and it's worth remembering, there is no wingman to offload things to when you lose capacity and no nav aids (not equipped), no TCAS (not equipped), no A-A radar (not equipped), no 2nd/backup radio (not equipped), no A-A TACAN (not equipped).....

CRM - Try operating with a crew of 500! Joking, kind of. It's a very different kind of CRM to tell a Wg Cdr Red Card Holder that their interpretation of the situation is frankly, insane. Or tell an American JTAC as politely as you can, go f*ck yourself as we are not bombing the school bus regardless of what his ROE is. How about foreign ATC who have just cleared you through the SID of an international airport whilst clearing a 747 to do the same as "you will see it on TCAS". How about negotiating why your unmanned aircraft is now flying itself home and cant be steered to avoid the new traffic he has given you avoiding action for. How about the brand new LEGAD that is 'concerned' that your interpretation of CDE is wrong, despite the fact you had the same argument with the previous five LEGADs, and were correct.... The list goes on and on and on. Oh and as you have a radio, mIRC, several phones, an intercom to the DA, IntO and Ops so they can ALL chime in.... Often all at the same time! It is THE most unique CRM situation of any platform.

Skin in the game - Thats relative, it is difficult to perceive a scenario on the Chinook fleet where you could inadvertently kill innocents in glorious technicolour with 500 witnesses for the War Crime tribunal!

Regarding fatigue, constant night flying whilst trying to maintain a family life, working most weekends and 100% Op flying for 3 yrs more than takes it's toll, and then some.

StormShadow or PW4 planning is clearly not flying any bomb. Much the same as when you plan a GR4 sortie, the same happens for RPAS, you have had no part in the actual 'dropping' you merely did CDE planning or programmed a bomb.

Worryingly, PW4 is not cleared on RPAS, see my paragraph LEGADs :ok:

I will reiterate, if you are able, go for a visit to Waddo and see for yourself the nuances, rather than preconceived ideas. This is why senior leaders make questionable decisions as they dont understand even the basics of the platform. Hopefully AOC 1 will change that. It is NOT an easy airframe to operate, it's very cerebral with some very unique 'isms'.

I understand there are those that want to rubbish the airframe, but please do that from a position of understanding, not opinion based on preconceived notions or biases.

[Training Risky]

Skin in the game - Thats relative, it is difficult to perceive a scenario on the Chinook fleet where you could inadvertently kill innocents in glorious technicolour with 500 witnesses for the War Crime tribunal!

Regarding fatigue, constant night flying whilst trying to maintain a family life, working most weekends and 100% Op flying for 3 yrs more than takes it's toll, and then some.



With these two comments, I will retire from this debate. I'll leave it to others to explain better than me why 'being there' and aircrew fatigue are not and never will be relative, it's binary. Piloting an aircraft that if mishandled could crash into an orphanage is just not the same as operating one remotely which then crashes into same orphanage because the link failed. No matter how good you are at multitasking on mirc chat.



Worryingly, PW4 is not cleared on RPAS, see my paragraph LEGADs :ok:


That's my bad entirely, I meant PW4 and Brimstone from GR4 and Hellfire from Reaper, monitoring PID/POL via Reaper. No plans to travel north of Watford ever again...thanks for the offer though. Not having a go at the aircraft or the operators either, vital capability.

[ORAC]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/raf-drone-operators-reap-rewards-zmr735j5d

RAF drone operators reap rewards

Operational service medals have been awarded to RAF drone operators for the first time, but without the ribbon clasp for danger in the line of duty.

Members of the RAF Reaper Force (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/topic/defence) have received the Operational Service Medal Iraq and Syria for their work in the Shader campaign against Isis. Their medals will not have the “Iraq and Syria” clasp that goes to the pilots of manned aircraft.

The 36ft Reaper drone has a top speed of 290mph and a ceiling of 30,000ft when armed. It can carry two 500lb laser-guided bombs and four Hellfire missiles. Reapers were responsible for more than 1,280 of the 4,013 deaths of Isis (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/topic/syria) fighters in RAF strikes in Iraq and Syria between September 2014 and January this year.

Before presenting the medals, Air Vice-Marshal Harvey Smyth, said: “It’s absolutely right and proper that they get recognition because their contribution to the success of the operation is just phenomenal.”

In the same ceremony, some Reaper officers received pilots’ wings. Air Vice-Marshal Smyth, who presented the wings, said: “What you do remotely piloting an air vehicle is equally as challenging, is equally as dynamic as flying a fast jet. It’s just different.”

[camelspyyder]

Today was XIII Sqn's turn for recognition. 50+ members of the Stabbed Cats receiving the Shader OSM (without clasp) at a ceremony held at RAF Waddington.

Congratulations to all of them for a job well done.

[The...Bird]

So if you get streamed Pilot - ISTAR out of EFT, does that encompass MQ-9B, Poseidon, Wedgetail, Rivet Joint, Shadow and Sentinel, or only the MQ-9B?

[Flopgun]

So if you get streamed Pilot - ISTAR out of EFT, does that encompass MQ-9B, Poseidon, Wedgetail, Rivet Joint, Shadow and Sentinel, or only the MQ-9B?

At the moment the MQ-9B route is that platform only with the possibility to move to P-8, E-7 etc through competitive selection post TRoS on MQ-9, I'm not sure how it works with those going to MQ-9B from a "Pilot" selection route (of course there is the recruitment distinction of "Pilot and RPAS(Pilot)" currently)

[Finningley Boy]

FWIW I couldn’t care less what badge the RPAS pilots wear. If it has been deemed appropriate for them to wear the RAF flying badge then so be it. As a current RAF pilot it doesn’t offend me in the slightest.

Times have changed. I mean no offense to BEagle and Timelord but I don’t think it matters what long-since retired pilots think. Reaper is a vital part of our current frontline inventory. The people who fly them are pilots.

Has anyone ever become annoyed that WW2 Spitfire Pilots got awarded the RAF flying badge after such a short training regime?

BV

Mr Viking,

I think the point about Spitfire pilots, or any world war 2 aircrew, isn't the length of time they spent learning to achieve perfection. They earned their wings even if the first day they flew into the wild blue yonder, they never returned.

FB

[Bob Viking]

I am in violent agreement with you.

That post (from nearly six months ago) was not intended to criticise the bravest of the brave. I think you are taking it slightly out of context.

BV