CASA going overboard again

[mullokintyre]

I recently received the following email from CASA.
​​​​​​New eLearning on Class G airspace now liveDo you know what frequency to use for radio calls in non-controlled airspace, also known as ‘Class G’ airspace? Or what you are supposed to say? A new eLearning module is available now through CASA’s AviationWorx (http://mailinglist.casa.gov.au/lists/lt.php?tid=cRpRB1gHVVQFDk4FBlANS1ABWVpMWgAAVBoBBQ1WBFtfBwJVA VIfU1FfUQEJAwlLVwRUUEwMUwUFGg9SC1dMCQBTUQANBVAEAVtXGAlVDVFdU VZXTF1QAlUaAgBdB0xbAFcOTFgHV1wFWFRWAQlfVQ) training portal.

It’s part of the new Be heard, be seen, be safe (http://mailinglist.casa.gov.au/lists/lt.php?tid=cRpSBwpUAgENCk5cAFABS1BXB1VMAFRRBRoOC1wKUFxdUAJSW gMfU1FfUQEJAwlLVwRUUEwMUwUFGg9SC1dMCQBTUQANBVAEAVtXGAlVDVFdU VZXTF1QAlUaAgBdB0xbAFcOTFgHV1wFWFRWAQlfVQ) resource booklet, now available online and through the CASA Online Store (http://mailinglist.casa.gov.au/lists/lt.php?tid=cRpRUAxSBlUEW04CVwRcS1AKWVpMAVQHVBoAVgoLBVhbVwZVW wAfU1FfUQEJAwlLVwRUUEwMUwUFGg9SC1dMCQBTUQANBVAEAVtXGAlVDVFdU VZXTF1QAlUaAgBdB0xbAFcOTFgHV1wFWFRWAQlfVQ). Along with the booklet, the eLearning module provides the recommended frequencies, phraseology and when to make a broadcast for pilots in Class G airspace.

It takes only 15 minutes and is available by logging into AviationWorx and selecting ‘Class G Airspace Radio Procedures’ course.

Why do they insist I get another account to use the AviationWorx? Whats wrong with the existing account I have to access their portal?
Why do I need to logon and identify to access education material?
Talk about making a simple activity tedious.
Only a government department could even contemplate such bull****.
Mick

[601]

Only a government department could even contemplate such bull****.
Something about left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing....

[aroa]

Where's the right hand, again ??

Its CAsA that should be pitched overboard

[redsnail]

Why have a log-in at all? Just open source the page and the learning videos on it - it's not super secret squirrel info, after all. That avoids the admin costs of keeping log ins and what not as well.

[SHAGGS]

Not as bad as the myGov website, change your login device and you are forced to create a new account, which is not a straight forward easy process. Why the simple things in life need to be made extremely difficult beats me. I guess it’s why we pay high taxes to keep the seat warmers in Canberra gainfully employed.

[MagnumPI]

Whilst I kind of agree that you shouldn't have to log in, I think CASA are doing the right thing by trying to focus a bit more on e-learning.

I completed the 'course' in about 10 minutes last night and thankfully was already pretty across most of the procedures. Judging by some of the people on the radio at my local uncontrolled aerodrome, more people need to do this course for a bit of refresher training!

I've also found the CASA OnTrack YouTube videos generally helpful, especially when trying to learn a bit more about the not-so-well-published Class D procedures unique to that aerodrome.

[peuce]

Well, if you weren't required to login, all that money spent on setting up AviationWorx would have been wasted. ..... oh......

[SHAGGS]

So e-learning is the alternative to an experienced instructor theses days is it? When I mean experienced, I’m referring to an instructor with some commercial experience who has had a few scares in an aircraft, albeit if they are a GR 3.

Real experience and scenario based training will always be the only way that effective flight training can be achieved.

Off topic a wee bit, however I couldn’t resist😀

[MagnumPI]

So e-learning is the alternative to an experienced instructor theses days is it? When I mean experienced, I’m referring to an instructor with some commercial experience who has had a few scares in an aircraft, albeit if they are a GR 3.

Real experience and scenario based training will always be the only way that effective flight training can be achieved.

Off topic a wee bit, however I couldn’t resist😀

I'm not suggesting that e-learning is a substitute for real seat time, and I doubt CASA is either. That said, how many pilots get their licence and then don't fly with an instructor except for a BFR...? If you are that sort of pilot, then e-learning is better than no learning.

I know that our beloved regulator falls short in many areas, and I've had my own frustrations dealing with certain CASA departments too. That said, I think you've got to give them some credit for at least trying to engage and educate GA pilots in the community. Have you ever attended any of the AvSafety seminars? I make sure that I go to the one at my local field each year and the content is generally relevant and thought-provoking.

[compressor stall]

TSo e-learning is the alternative to an experienced instructor theses days is it?

e-learning is a good mitigator for the significant risk of change fatigue. From MBZ to CTAF (r) to whatever iteration of the last decade to what we have now :) and all the associated radio calls.

When not sure, people often defsult to what they first learned.

[SHAGGS]

Agreed, however e-learning and safety seminars etc, should be backed up by good flight instruction, particularly for pilots who don’t fly regularly.

[djpil]

Why do they insist I get another account to use the AviationWorx? Whats wrong with the existing account I have to access their portal?My guess is that it was cheaper to do it that way so gets a tick from me.

Why do I need to logon and identify to access education material?
Talk about making a simple activity tedious.Its used to keep records of training so an account is needed, sounds fair to me. People seem happy to have to login to NAIPS just to get weather and NOTAMS, now that seems tedious and onerous to me! As does not being able to download a pdf of the VFRG.

Only a government department could even contemplate such bull****.
MickOnly on Pprune with nothing better than trivia for me to discuss.

[megle2]

DJ, Doubt “People seem happy to have to login to NAIPS”, more likely given up trying to have it axed
Just another example of casa empire building

[Vag277]

Megle2
NAIPS is Airsevices Australia

[megle2]

My mistake, same principle though

[CaptainMidnight]

People seem happy to have to login to NAIPS just to get weather and NOTAMS, now that seems tedious and onerous to me! A log in to NAIPS is required so there is a record of your briefing i.e. who you are, the date & time of the briefing, what you requested and were provided with, which was current at that specific time.

For obvious reasons .....

[601]

A log in to NAIPS is required so there is a record of your briefing i.e. who you are, the date & time of the briefing, what you requested and were provided with, which was current at that specific time.

CAsA may be keeping the same records incase there is an incident/accident.
In future you may get a gentle reminder (text, email) that you have not visited the site for a while and you need to update, update, update

[megle2]

Where is the reference that states you must log in to NAIPS and NAIPS only prior to flight. Be a handy gotcha on tests etc.

[LeadSled]

Where is the reference that states you must log in to NAIPS and NAIPS only prior to flight. Be a handy gotcha on tests etc.
M2,
Without some searching, I can't give you specific legislative references, there is more than one, but you are required by law to only used "approved" official sources of information for planning and operating your flight.

Met. is a good case in point, only observations from approved met. observers can be used, and Australia is about the only country I know where a PPL or higher licensed pilot, (base on the met. knowledge required by the syllabus) is NOT automatically an approved met. observer.

The genesis of this "vital and critical air safety legislation" ( to quote CASA testimony to a CASA Review hearing) is "interesting", it was the outcome of an industrial dispute, many years ago, between BoM and the union that represented most of its members -- to severely limit the number of non-union member met. observers.

As for NOTAMs etc., AsA is the only approved source (that I know of) in AU for such data.

Tootle pip!!

[mullokintyre]

M2,
Without some searching, I can't give you specific legislative references, there is more than one, but you are required by law to only used "approved" official sources of information for planning and operating your flight.

Met. is a good case in point, only observations from approved met. observers can be used, and Australia is about the only country I know where a PPL or higher licensed pilot, (base on the met. knowledge required by the syllabus) is NOT automatically an approved met. observer.

The genesis of this "vital and critical air safety legislation" ( to quote CASA testimony to a CASA Review hearing) is "interesting", it was the outcome of an industrial dispute, many years ago, between BoM and the union that represented most of its members -- to severely limit the number of non-union member met. observers.

As for NOTAMs etc., AsA is the only approved source (that I know of) in AU for such data.

Tootle pip!!

Look if we are going to be technical, you don't need to log into NAIPS if its a local flight, say from one local unregistered airport to another unregistered airport.

Mick

[LeadSled]

Look if we are going to be technical, you don't need to log into NAIPS if its a local flight, say from one local unregistered airport to another unregistered airport.

Mick
Mull----,
I would highly recommend that you give a little more consideration to that approach as detailed above for regulatory accuracy.
Tootle pip!!

[mullokintyre]

Sorry Lead, I don't speak in Riddles. If I look out of my window at home, look at the windsock on the farm strip, do me pre flight , take off and land at my neighbours eight miles away, why do I need to log on to NAIPS??

[CaptainMidnight]

Hint:
AIP GEN 3.3 - 3 para 2.3.1

[Cloudee]

Sorry Lead, I don't speak in Riddles. If I look out of my window at home, look at the windsock on the farm strip, do me pre flight , take off and land at my neighbours eight miles away, why do I need to log on to NAIPS??
You don’t, You’re not leaving the vicinity of your airstrip so no need to log into NAIPS to get weather or anything else.

[andrewr]

I'm not sure there is any legal requirement to log on to NAIPS. You could read over the shoulder of your mate as he reads his briefing, view a printed forecast pinned on the wall within its validity period, receive a briefing from your company etc.

The idea that no login to NAIPS proves anything is a bit of a stretch.

[djpil]

view a printed forecast pinned on the wallit will get worse - I haven’t seen the final Part 91 MOS but the last draft required us to bring weather and NOTAMs on the flight.

[Sunfish]

All available information “appropriate”.............. NAIPS is pretty comprehensive. You can always get it then not bother to read it. Personally I am a believer in Murphy’s law.

[megle2]

It’s not mandatory to log in to NAIPS pre flight but you must have the appropriate info for your flight. More than likely sourced from NAIPS of course. As Andrewr suggests it could of been printed and placed on the notice board or handed to you as you arrive ( like it used to be at the briefing office )

[LeadSled]

Sorry Lead, I don't speak in Riddles. If I look out of my window at home, look at the windsock on the farm strip, do me pre flight , take off and land at my neighbours eight miles away, why do I need to log on to NAIPS??
Mull,
If you actually read what I wrote, I didn't say you had to log in to NAIPS. What I did say, in words that you didn't understand, is that there are regulatory requirements for pre-flight information, and you should understand what applies, how much or how little, to your flight. CAR 233 is still on the books.
Tootle pip!!

PS: "In the vicinity"? Among the sundry criteria, "Vicinity" has a specific definition, really only applicable to met, re. preflight data ( see CAR 239)--- unless something that I have missed has been hidden in Part 91 etc., which is entirely possible.

[Cloudee]

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 239

Planning of flight by pilot in command

(1) Before beginning a flight, the pilot in command shall study all available information appropriate to the intended operation, and, in the cases of flights away from the vicinity of an aerodrome and all I.F.R. flights, shall make a careful study of:

(a) current weather reports and forecasts for the route to be followed and at aerodromes to be used;

(b) the airways facilities available on the route to be followed and the condition of those facilities;

(c) the condition of aerodromes to be used and their suitability for the aircraft to be used; and

(d) the air traffic control rules and procedure appertaining to the particular flight;

and the pilot shall plan the flight in relation to the information obtained.




CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 166

Definitions for Subdivision 2

(1) In this Subdivision:

"in the vicinity of " , in relation to a non-controlled aerodrome, has the meaning given by subregulation (2).

(2) An aircraft is in the vicinity of a non-controlled aerodrome if it is within:

(a) airspace other than controlled airspace; and

(b) 10 miles from the aerodrome; and

(c) a height above the aerodrome that could result in conflict with operations at the aerodrome.

[LeadSled]

Cloudee,
You are doing others homework for them.
Tootle pip!!

[Cloudee]

Cloudee,
You are doing others homework for them.
Tootle pip!!
Yes, I know I shouldn’t, but hopefully it leads to a more informed discussion.

[zanthrus]

You got a window? Open it! There that's your weather forecast!

[LeadSled]

You got a window? Open it! There that's your weather forecast!
zanthrus,
Tell that to the next FOI you come across, it should be worth a solid fine and a few demerit points. Or try it on, on your next flight review.
And don't look out the window and report on behalf of another pilot, that's a different criminal offense.
Tootle pip!!

PS: Genuine question, I so far have not made any attempt to work through it, but what is the legal status of "observations" you obtain from weather cameras?? You guys installing them, what is your view.

[zanthrus]

Geez Leady get over yourself mate! Have you not seen Good Morning Vietnam?

[CaptainMidnight]

but what is the legal status of "observations" you obtain from weather cameras?? As with many things, that is a question probably best not asked of legal people, lest the answer is not what you wanted or were expecting :)

I suspect CASA would say that weather camera data does not obviate or replace the CAR & AIP requirements before flight to check ".... current weather reports and forecasts" etc.

[Sunfish]

i The problem here is that the regulations again are not specific. Both CASA and the average pilot could drive a truck through the meaning of 239: “all available appropriate....... intended” then of course there’s the situation where there are no communication facilities and the aircraft has no radio. What then?

I suppose the newspaper forecast might have to do, or the proverbial string.

Why doesn’t CASA frame the rules in terms of desired outcomes? I mean having the forecast and NOTAMS doesn’t mean the pilot understands them.

Then of course we have approved sources. If I have a forecast that says CAVOK, can I legally take off in the face of a thunderstorm? I mean, if I’m not an approved observer is the thunderstorm not there? Do we only divert for “approved” thunderstorms?

Plato: Just because a fool says the sun is shining doesn’t make it dark outside” ........except to CASA. (theban plays)

[djpil]

Why doesn’t CASA frame the rules in terms of desired outcomes? I can remember being in Canberra with CASA telling us that they were now enamoured of EASA being "worlds best practice" instead of FAA and would be developing outcome-based regulations .... then we got more prescripotive regulations with more to come.
Part 91 is coming soon so my advice is to look at what's in there.

[Squawk7700]

PS: Genuine question, I so far have not made any attempt to work through it, but what is the legal status of "observations" you obtain from weather cameras?? You guys installing them, what is your view.

This doesn’t answer your question, however from what I’ve been led to believe and I’ve seen it myself on occasion, that *most* instructors are advising their students to check the weather cameras when planning their flights.

The use of cameras when airborne could give a false sense of security and could be described as somewhat fool-hardy.... but... it could one day save your life when looking for an alternate or similar.

The key is in carefully checking the timestamps, just like you would on a weather forecast.

Cameras are about as useful as a weather forecast.