Giving Up.

[Sunfish]

I wish I’d never started flying as a form of recreation. What pisses me off is the risk of losing my house, fortune, reputation and freedom to travel from the one risk that cannot be managed - CASA.

Physical risks are known and manageable through time honored techniques of preparation and training, what cannot be managed is regulatory risk.

There is ample evidence for what follows in the form of the Forsyth Review, AAT transcripts and court proceedings as well as anecdotal evidence on prune. There is no legal way of managing regulatory risk - which has the potential to destroy your life and family.

The regulatory risk is the result of a combination of factors;

- The regulations are so complex, convoluted, contradictory, prescriptive, byzantine, arcane that I defy anyone to fully understand even a fraction of them - and I have an engineering degree, MBA and have survived in the top levels of business without trouble yet even I cannot make sense of this rubbish. What’s worse, neither can CASA staff which brings me to the next issue.

- Inconsistent interpretation. At least according to Pprune, the regulations are so bad that they require “interpretation” by CASA staff and the interpretation varies according to the interpreter. This then raises the little matter of corruption; when there are two or more possible interpretations, CASA staff can suit themselves which one they choose - to the delight or dismay of the pilot concerned. This is just plain wrong. But even that would be bearable were it not for:

- criminal penalties and strict liability offenses. Aviation offenses against regulation are defined as criminal offenses - meaning all of them are felonies (ie: you get a criminal record if convicted) they are not something like road traffic offenses or littering most of which are misdemeanors or civil matters. Being labeled a felon has consequences. You cannot travel overseas, your employment and other social options are limited. But even this is manageable if CASA was not demonstrably capricious and unfair.

-CASA model litigant? According to evidence CASA adopts a win at all costs regulatory strategy. This means that once a target is selected, a witch hunt ensues, looking for multiple offenses to “get” the quarry. I confess now; my logbook will have arithmetic errors in it, my torque wrench is uncalibrated, my tyre caps are missing- People have lost their livelihoods over such matters.

- But even this is bearable were it not for the fact that CASA writes the rules, then interprets, enforces and decides on punishment itself. If these functions were separate, the blizzard of “please explains” between the various functions would result in rapid simplification of the rules just to preserve the sanity of the staff. Instead the poor bloody pilots and engineers have to put up with this insanity.

I have spent the best part of $75,000 on building an aircraft. I am yet to face registering it and getting a certificate of airworthiness. Despite my best efforts by definition it would be possible to find non compliance’s somewhere, somehow. I am also up for a flight. review, medical and ASIC renewal with associated costs and I now doubt my sanity in learning to fly in the first place.

There are some who say “don’t worry, she’ll be right” but that’s not what the regulations say. I didn’t build a career on “she’ll be right”. What is destroying my sleep at night is the thought that I may be unwittingly contravening regulations in building registering and flying this thing and there seems to be no way to manage the risk of punitive action by CASA, and of course “strict liability” offenses precludes the defense of making an honest mistake.

Dick Smith is right; get out now. If you are contemplating flying for fun, take up golf or yachting instead.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Relax mate, have a beer. It’s not all bad.

[OK4Wire]

I'm convinced you are right, Sunfish.

Swap "CASA" for "Government" and your plight describes where our country is headed. A politicised, beaurocratic, PC, socialised disaster.

[Runaway Gun]

It might not all be bad, but Sunfish is simply underlining many issues that do exist.

Just how much worse a situation will we accept?

[Squawk7700]

No less than a few weeks ago Sunfish, you told us that you sold your Zenith kit and were looking to buy something else so therefore do not own an aircraft.

[PPRuNeUser0184]

“Inconsistent interpretation. At least according to PPRuNe.....”

And there lies your first problem. I wouldn’t be using PPRuNe and the interpretation of others as a basis for anything.

Fishing and golf....focus on that.

[CaptainMidnight]

I have spent the best part of $75,000 on building an aircraft. I am yet to face registering it and getting a certificate of airworthiness.
<snip>
I am also up for a flight. review, medical and ASIC renewal with associated costs So you still haven't had any dealings with CASA at all, but you think when you do, you'll have a bad time and so are tossing it all in beforehand??

:rolleyes:

[machtuk]

The one thing that we all tend to hide and don't believe it effects us..........mental health, it's a very real threat!

[ShyTorque]

I'm convinced you are right, Sunfish.

Swap "CASA" for "Government" and your plight describes where our country is headed. A politicised, beaurocratic, PC, socialised disaster.

Why not join the EU, where all is sweetness and light?

[OK4Wire]

Yes, ShyT, it is worse there, no doubt. It seems we are all afflicted with the same disease:

“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

[cattletruck]

Fact1: There are good people in CASA.
Fact2: There are complete turds in CASA.
Pleas don't tar everyone with the same brush, CASA are no different from many other modern organisations, and don't think their current overbearing attitude is sustainable - it's just a trend until the turds move on.

and the interpretation varies according to the interpreter
Which can also work in your favour by referring any issue to other staff or escalating disputes - this has recently worked very well for me when dealing with CASA.

Finally, I could never do the kind of flying I do here in this country than what I see in another European country that I frequently visit where you can go to jail for just photographing an airport.

I say this as someone who currently has a gig with the feds (not CASA) and I reckon we could get rid of 50% of our staff (another work colleague argues 70%) and the public whom we serve wouldn't notice anything. Sadly. it's a sign of the times due to broader social issues that extend beyond that of the basic work tasks required of an individual.

Don't give up.

[harrip]

Fact1: There are good people in CASA.
Fact2: There are complete turds in CASA

Sadly there must be be more of the latter than the former else GA would not be in the predicament it is in.

[zanthrus]

Go fly. Ignore CASA. Happy days!

[VH-MLE]

Good luck with your next venture Sunfish! I trust you'll be moving on from Prune at the same time...

[Clare Prop]

I think the OP displays what Ms Gillard would have called "Hyperbowl"

Dick Smith doesn't run an aviation business, if he did he might realise that the flying training side of GA is booming.

There are good and rotten people in CASA, just as in any regulatory authority.

[De_flieger]

You've got approximately 7018 posts, Sunfish. Assuming each of them averaged around 10 minutes to write, including where appropriate reading the preceding posts, that is just over 1169 hours spent posting here, which is comparable to the reported build time of Zenith kit planes! If all you ever read is crash reports, you'll get a very twisted view of aviation, and likewise if all you ever read about is on pprune about what CASA may be doing you'll end up convinced that anything you do, including nothing, can end you up in jail.

[CBR205]

But if you give up here what will you endlessly complain about or tell people how awesome you are at?

[Squawk7700]

But if you give up here what will you endlessly complain about or tell people how awesome you are at?

Sailing. His other love. He could complain about jet skis, the yacht club, other boat owners, insurance companies, mooring fees, industry events, the boat show, boat surveyors, Water Police or maybe AMSA.

Don't worry, there's plenty of scope for things to complain about !

[CBR205]

Well owning a boat and a plane is the mistake. After all if it floats, flys or something else... cheaper to rent than buy.

[anxiao]

CBR205 you are right with those three.

... and have you seen the regulations for alcohol, fire protection, health and safety and a dozen other minefields when you open a whorehouse these days?

Even the piano player gets Award.

[harrryw]

CBR205 you are right with those three.

... and have you seen the regulations for alcohol, fire protection, health and safety and a dozen other minefields when you open a whorehouse these days?

Even the piano player gets Award.
Trouble with opening a whorehouse is if you try to sample the merchandise you get slapped with a heap of sexual harassment claims.

[Sunfish]

Almost all of my relatives ended up in the gas ovens of the Third Reich. The one thing that terrifies me is thus an unaccountable capricious draconian Government Authority. CASA matches that template.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Yeah they’re very comparable.

Apart from the part that they aren’t at all.

[Sunfish]

Read the Forsyth Review.

[Eddie Dean]

Almost all of my relatives ended up in the gas ovens of the Third Reich. The one thing that terrifies me is thus an unaccountable capricious draconian Government Authority. CASA matches that template.As an ex Prime Minister said, what complete hyperbowl

[harrip]

Dick Smith doesn't run an aviation business, if he did he might realise that the flying training side of GA is booming.



I think the point is, there are many sides to GA flying of which training is only one - the other sides are gradually reducing in number. All these shiny new pilots that come out of training soon realise that it's a ponzi scheme where, unless they are fortunate to be in a cadet scheme, finding employment afterwards is less likely than winning the lotto.

[The Green Goblin]

Sunny,

Sometimes you post gold. Other times you post hysterical nonsense

To put it another way, get a beer in your head and go have fun. If flying is no longer fun for you, pick another hobby. Like basket weaving or knitting.

No no one is forcing you to fly, you don’t do it for a living and if you have to deal with the regulator, it’s because you’re choosing to in pursuit of your hobby.

If you end up on the wrong side of strict liability, it’s probably because you did the wrong thing, upset someone, and didn’t play ball. It’s like being pulled over by a cop for a menial offence and being a smart alec. You’ll probably walk away with a sticker and a breath test plus much wasted time.

Stop and smell the roses. Life’s to short.

[poteroo]

Sunny,

In respect of your Zenith project, you are overthinking the exercise. One of my students has just completed his Z750 under guidance from his local Technical Counsellor, (SAAA). It was signed off into VH rego by our local Authorised Person, (AP), and we've flown off the Phase 1 test flying without any hitches. With Phase 1 completed, it has been signed off again by local AP and student is about to continue his training in it. There were no delays, hitches, purges, whatever from the regulator, because they appoint an AP to do this work. The APs do a good job, and good test pilots achieve the levels of safety the regulator expects from us. Don't throw away your project - enjoy the flexibility and freedom that those before you have battled long and hard for.
happy days,

[harrryw]

Sunny,

Sometimes you post gold. Other times you post hysterical nonsense

To put it another way, get a beer in your head and go have fun. If flying is no longer fun for you, pick another hobby. Like basket weaving or knitting.

No no one is forcing you to fly, you don’t do it for a living and if you have to deal with the regulator, it’s because you’re choosing to in pursuit of your hobby.

If you end up on the wrong side of strict liability, it’s probably because you did the wrong thing, upset someone, and didn’t play ball. It’s like being pulled over by a cop for a menial offence and being a smart alec. You’ll probably walk away with a sticker and a breath test plus much wasted time.

Stop and smell the roses. Life’s to short.


Except none of those are strict liability.

[Josh Cox]

Godwin's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)

[josephfeatherweight]

Godwin's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)
Never seen that before - glad I have now. Godwin is a genius!

[CBR205]

Almost all of my relatives ended up in the gas ovens of the Third Reich. The one thing that terrifies me is thus an unaccountable capricious draconian Government Authority. CASA matches that template.

That surely must be a lie otherwise you could not conceivconceivably link the actions of the Nazi's to CASA.

Do you honestly think anyone can take you seriously after a comment like that? That you in your attempt to abide by flying regulations in Australia somehow is similar to the plight of Jews in Germany and Eastern Europe in the years before and including WW2?

Are you for real? Seriously can you reread that and think it is a coherent argument?

Do everyone a favour and leave aviation you do it no good. All you do is complain about airshows.

And you complain about the ADF yet lament how your relatives were killed by a regime the ADF helped topple. Do you always selectively pick your arguments and point of view for your current chain of thought?

Or here. Is a challenge.

What would make you happy? Nothing?

Cool. Then be miserable somewhere else there are plenty of people who enjoy flying. Yes people actually enjoy flying! You must be doing it wrong.

Or let's start a GoFundMe me campaign for sunfish to leave flying forever. Everyone can give a few dollars to get rid of you off here forever. I'll gladly give 50$ to never see you post again.

Your comments linking CASA to the Thrid Reicht are reprehensible and if you actually lost relatives in that conflict you should be ashamed by your post. But I suspect much like everything you write it is full of attention seeking lies.

Tell us sunfish:

What have your ever done to make this a better world For aviation or otherwise.

[The Green Goblin]

I also didn’t know that the Germans slaughtered large amounts of Asians sunfish. Considering your family origins are, well, Asian.

Anyway better things and all.

[Josh Cox]

GG, have you read "Gulag Archipelago" (Alexandr Solzhenitsyn) ?, there are others far more accomplished at evil.

[Sunfish]

CBR; What have your ever done to make this a better world For aviation or otherwise.]

Plenty. I’m also dismayed to see what should be a vibrant, growing part of the Australian economy getting flushed down the toilet by CASA.

I also, unlike obviously you, hate injustice, and I, unlike you, I don’t ignore it or, like you, condone it.

That CASA is in need of, to put it mildly, “reform” is not some weird construct of my fevered brain, read the @#$%ing Forsyth Review.

Furthermore, do you think that people who post here are just making stuff up?

I also note you have no constructive comments to make about CASA but just seem to want to kick heads.

[CBR205]

Nobody says CASA is perfect. I doubt many or any would argue certain aspects do need change.

Linking the organisation to the World War 2 treatment of Jews by the Germans however is just disgusting.

[Slippery_Pete]

Pathetic Sunfish.

Not many of us here like CASA, in fact there’s a lot of hatred and dismay amongst EVERYONE at what it has become.

But a whole bunch of posts call you out on likening CASA to the Nazis burning Jews, and your only response is “read the f... Forsyth review”?

Absolutely pathetic. Using the most heinous war crimes in history to push your little barrow with absolutely no remorse. Wake up to yourself.

[LeadSled]

Nobody says CASA is perfect. I doubt many or any would argue certain aspects do need change.

Linking the organisation to the World War 2 treatment of Jews by the Germans however is just disgusting.

CBR206,
But hardly new, fifty years ago, an alternative name for the DCA (or parts of it -- the mindless enforcers) was the AIRSTAPO. As were the references to "Little Hitlers".

As for "strict liability", the use of strict liability is not the "problem", it is the CASA gross misuse of strict liability classifications of offenses in legislation, that is the issue.

If you take the trouble to look at the legislative guidelines, and the basic principles of criminal liability, it is fundamental that "strict liability" cannot be used (or should not be used) where there is any element of such as operational decision making.

Put more correctly, if mens rea is involved.

Strict liability should only be the classification of an offense where the "facts" are black and white --- do you have a license for you dog, did you park in a No Parking zone ---- Actus rea --- the physical elements of the offense need only to be proven.

One of the legislative guidelines states that "administrative convenience" should never be a reason for a "strict liability" classification.

Nothing that involves the typical decision making of day to day flying should be a strict liability offense ---- but in the CASA regulations it clearly is. If you look at the FAA Part 91 provision, it makes it clear that the pilot in command can violate any number of regulations, if necessary to save the aircraft, Australian aviation regulations makes no such provision.

Tootle pip!!
FAR §91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.

PS: There is a NSW Appeal Court decision that is powerful re. authority of the PIC in an emergency, but few know about it and CASA ignores it --- look up Austlii or similar for Markey.

[aroa]

Not fully completing a line in yr log book, with CAsA that is a strict liability crime for which you are convicted and fined. Been there, had that.
Hardly likely to cause an accident or bring down an aircraft..!
The bit that hurts is... that offence conviction (and criminal record) does not meet the Government guidelines on what constitutes a crime.. Nobody is robbed, injured or killed or otherwise hurt.
This is just CAsA's Stalanist authoritarian , control freakery gone mad. But who cares?
I was advise 17 years ago that this sort of ' non safety issue thing was to be reduced to either warning, licence points loss or a small admin fine.
Due to the nature of the Bully Bureaucracy, that never finishes anything, this has never happened.
And never likely to either.
Unless CAsA and those that create all this sh*te are wiped out, can the Industry start again under an Industry supervised agency, with serious Govt oversighting powers and which is pulled back into the Australian Public Service.and that code of conduct.

This free floating CAsA ;crap box' without oversight and control, is going down the gutter and taking GA with it.
Sunny...Flying and aircraft are addictive and if you care enough you will NOT give up.
Dont let the bastards grind you down...especially not these CAsA bastards
Fly safe ... and free !