One of Russia's richest women killedin private aircraft in Germany

[gileraguy]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/one-of-russias-richest-women-killed-as-private-jet-crashes-in-germany-a4105626.html

One of Russia (https://www.standard.co.uk/topic/russia)'s richest women, S7 Group co-owner Natalia Fileva, has died in a small plane crash in Germany (https://www.standard.co.uk/topic/germany), the Russian airline operator said.

Ms Fileva, 55, was on board a single-engine, six-seat Epic LT aircraft that crashed in a field as it approached the small airport at Egelsbach, a town in south-western Germany, the airline's press service said in an email.

German police said there appeared to be three people on board the plane, including the pilot of the flight, which originated in France (https://www.standard.co.uk/topic/france).

They said the two passengers were believed to be Russian citizens but that positive identification of the occupants would require further investigation.

German aviation authorities were probing the cause of the crash. Egelsbach is about 10 kilometres south of Frankfurt.

[DaveReidUK]

Appears to be MSN 19, a 2008-built Epic exported to Russia about 5 years ago.

[gileraguy]

Local radio stating it was a single engined jet, however the Epic LT and Epic were turboprops, according to Wikipedia. The LT was a kt built A/C and the Epic was a factory built bird, but details of actual production are limited. The Epic Victory was apparently an experimental kit built single engined jet, however details on production are also limited.

[WingNut60]

S7? As in S7 Airlines?

[gileraguy]

S7? As in S7 Airlines?

I believe so.

[DaveReidUK]

Local radio stating it was a single engined jet, however the Epic LT and Epic were turboprops, according to Wikipedia.

It was indeed a turboprop:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/379x264/epic_prop_8b7a7e5939b63e74390e67dccae28bf5f36d2103.jpg

The LT was a kit built A/C and the Epic was a factory built bird, but details of actual production are limited.

The accident aircraft was a kit-built Epic LT.

[gileraguy]

thank you Dave.

[chopper2004]

The other owner of S7 Airlines was killed along with others when their Epic LT corporate jet crashed in Germany.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6870853/One-Russias-richest-women-dies-private-jet-crashes-explodes-Germany.html

RIP to all.

ATB

[PastTense]

Note:
A police car racing to the scene of the crash collided with an other vehicle, killing the two people inside and seriously injuring three police officers, the DPA news agency reported.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/01/one-of-russias-richest-women-natalia-fileva-killed-german-plane-crash

[Water pilot]

The air crash involved a six-seater aircraft travelling from France to the town of Egelsbach south of Frankfurt. The plane went down in a field at around 1330 GMT, police said. The Epic-Lt, a single-engined jet designed for private flights, disappeared from radars at 1322 GMT, according to data from a flight tracker Flighradar24.

Um, ...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Epic_LT_%28N53VW%29_-_1.jpg/600px-Epic_LT_%28N53VW%29_-_1.jpg (center=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Epic_LT_(N53VW)_-_1.jpg)

[GMEDX]

A real shame to be an airline owner and very rich but killed in a single pilot kit plane. Reminds be of the Bin Laden accident at Blackbushe.

[Magplug]

Whilst it is quite possible that there is a perfectly straightforward technical or human factors explanation behind such a sad loss...... It is apparently dangerous to one's health to be a successful business person in Russia these days.

[BRE]

Not only is it not a jet, but it is also a kit aircraft without a type certificate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_LT_Dynasty

[Less Hair]

It's said to be getting one soon.
https://beam.land/aviation/certification-of-turboprop-e1000-epic-aircraft-will-be-held-in-2019-2059

[atakacs]

I am not saying it is necessarily of relevance here but what is the upshot of flying such an aircraft vs, say, a PC12.
Clearly she could afford it...

[maggot]

I am not saying it is necessarily of relevance here but what is the upshot of flying such an aircraft vs, say, a PC12.
Clearly she could afford it...
Cross Putin and it doesn't matter what you fly

[ChickenHouse]

The Epic looks like a big version of a Lance Evolution? 54 Epic built as Experimentals, two prototypes for certification with less 1,000 hours total in test - now only one prototype left? Did the S7 try to get the SET into airtaxi services? Let‘s see what this means for the almost done certification, maybe it is ‚done‘ now ;-).

Action appears to be quite astonishing. With the Russian Lady and her father on board, one may expect an ATPL or professional from their airline at the yoke? Or was the aircraft owned and flown by the father? Some we‘ll probably never know.

Rumors say, it appears the plane was too high and too fast on short final 08 when they decided to make a 360 at low altitude on short final diagonal through the traffic pattern, <500ft and high bank angles are under discussion. Why would one even consider that with such a hot bird - not go-around and do another approach, but do such a heavy stunt on low short final?

[PerPurumTonantes]

A real shame to be an airline owner and very rich but killed in a single pilot kit plane. Reminds be of the Bin Laden accident at Blackbushe.


Or a footballer and very rich but killed in a single prop piloted by a plumber... Or a rally driver and very rich but killed in a helicopter... Or a football club owner in Leicester... Or a racing driver and his team at Elstree...

Does seem a bit odd that it keeps happening. You would think that privileged people would be more educated as to risk. But clearly not.

(edit: note that Leicester crash due to mechanical failure. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c090ab1e5274a0b64c8a2f4/S2-2018_G-VSKP.pdf)

[Alpine Flyer]

Does seem a bit odd that it keeps happening. You would think that privileged people would be more educated as to risk. But clearly not.
Even one step higher up with Citation-grade equipment, according to a pilot friend working at various small jet charter companies, there are customers who demand safety and rested pilots and customers who don't care....

Flying around in a kitplane isn't what would worry me, applying different safety standards rather so.

[His dudeness]

Or a footballer and very rich but killed in a single prop piloted by a plumber... Or a rally driver and very rich but killed in a helicopter... Or a football club owner in Leicester... Or a racing driver and his team at Elstree...

Does seem a bit odd that it keeps happening. You would think that privileged people would be more educated as to risk. But clearly not.

Having flown privileged people for now almost 30 years, some are, most aren´t.

[sudden twang]

Or a footballer and very rich but killed in a single prop piloted by a plumber... Or a rally driver and very rich but killed in a helicopter... Or a football club owner in Leicester... Or a racing driver and his team at Elstree...

Does seem a bit odd that it keeps happening. You would think that privileged people would be more educated as to risk. But clearly not.

You put the Leicester helicopter in with that group? I beg to differ.

[bsieker]

I am not saying it is necessarily of relevance here but what is the upshot of flying such an aircraft vs, say, a PC12.
Clearly she could afford it...



The answer is quite simple: speed.

The Epic has basically the same engine as the PC12, but is more than a tonne lighter, and it goes some 50 knots or so faster. It is possibly the fastest single-engine turboprop around, faster even than a TBM.

Since it is an experimental, costs are probably also a lot lower; just because you are rich doesn't meant you are not trying to save money.

FYI, Egelsbach is the untowered exectuve airfield close to Frankfurt. It's where you go if you are not an airliner or a larger business jet, and want to go to Frankfurt. Jets up to 20 t are permitted with prior permission.

There are special procedures for turboprops and jets, and since the Frankfurt Class C (the most restrictive airspace in Germany, comparable to Class B in the US) is only 1100 ft AGL, and the Class D (CTR) is quite close, it is "easy" to infringe if you are going fast. Possibly a factor if the stories about avoiding a missed approach and circling instead turn out to be true.

The airport website has copies of the VFR charts (https://www.egelsbach-airport.com/pilotinfo_aip.en.html).


Bernd

[ironbutt57]

Buddy Holly,Ritchie Valens and JP Richardson, Patsy Cline, Aaliyah, Reba Mc Intyre's entire band, Jim Croce, countless celebrities/well to do killed by "semi-professional" operators over decades...indeed many are let down by their agents and have paid with their lives

[The Ancient Geek]

It amazes me that someone so wealthy would buy a cheap kitplane rather than something like a PC12.
Or is this another cases of using a cheap grey charter ?.

[Jhieminga]

Photos from 2018 show this airframe with 'Epicaircraft.com' titles across the fuselage. Could the owner have been involved with the company developing this type?

https://www.google.com/search?q=RA-2151G+epic+LT

[ChickenHouse]

Photos from 2018 show this airframe with 'Epicaircraft.com' titles across the fuselage. Could the owner have been involved with the company developing this type?

https://www.google.com/search?q=RA-2151G+epic+LT
The aircraft appears to be one of the two prototypes for getting the test flights for certification of the former kitplane. And No, it ain‘t ‚cheap‘ - the kitplane was on top of 3m already.

[ironbutt57]

they have been trying to get that to market for some time,, I think the Chinese have pumped in some money, and its now very nearly certified...have a glance at epicaircraft.com....hardly a "kitplane"

[Joerg68]

I have read elsewhere on the web that Natalia Fileva's husband Vladislav Filev is involved with the aircraft manufacturer as the main investor.

[CargoOne]

Indeed it was reported their family took over majority/all of Epic. This particular aircraft is owned by them for quite some time and been featured in gear up landing in Moscow a few years ago. Family also owns a G550.

[Flyingmac]

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8935440

[Less Hair]

There is an eyewitness account in some german forum by some model airplane pilot who watched things happening from his garden. He claimed they maneuvred low and slow right next to the field and runway with high bank angles and finally dropped their left wing before impact. They stalled it he believes. No smoke, no flames inflight, gear was up he said. His statement was filed officially with the police.

[krohmie]

German eyewitness:

Right Base on the side of the higway for HPA aproach over the outskirts of Erzhausen.
Tight turn into ultrashort final with stall in the turn.

German flugzeugforum:
​"Ich war heute bei der Kripo Darmstadt und habe meinen Augezeugenbericht zu Protokoll gegeben. Nur um einige Mutmaßungen hier zu zerstreuen: Ich wohne 600 meter südlch versetzt zum westlichen Landebahnende von EDFE. Ich war zufällig mit Sicht in Richtung Norden im Garten, als die Epic in maximal 100m Höhe mein Haus überflogen hat. Die Maschine hat den Ort überflogen, was sonst nur der Polizeihubschrauber darf, hab nur gerufen "Notlandung". Die Turbine lief, aber entweder unruhig oder es wurde gerade Gas herausgenommen, kein Rauch oder Flammen beobachtet. Die Maschine flog mit eingezogenem Fahrwerk ca 600 meter weiter und ist dann gefühlte 50 Meter hoch eng nach Westen eingekurvt ... ich dachte 1. das kann nicht sein und 2. gleich gibts nen Stall. Das passierte auch umgehend, die Epic ist über die linke Fläche abgeschmiert, hat noch eine halbe Rolle abwärts gemacht (so das ich die komplette Unterseite des Flugzeuges gesehen habe) und ist dann senkrecht mit sofortigem Aufschlagbrand eingeschlagen. "

[ChickenHouse]

There is an eyewitness account in some german forum by some model airplane pilot who watched things happening from his garden. He claimed they maneuvred low and slow right next to the field and runway with high bank angles and finally dropped their left wing before impact. They stalled it he believes. No smoke, no flames inflight, gear was up he said. His statement was filed officially with the police.
There have been many witnesses at the airfield, so no shortage of information.

[bsieker]

German eyewitness:

Right Base on the wrong side of the higway for HPA aproach over the outskirts of Erzhausen.
Tight turn into ultrashort final with stall in the turn.

German flugzeugforum:
​"Ich war heute bei der Kripo Darmstadt und habe meinen Augezeugenbericht zu Protokoll gegeben. Nur um einige Mutmaßungen hier zu zerstreuen: Ich wohne 600 meter südlch versetzt zum westlichen Landebahnende von EDFE. Ich war zufällig mit Sicht in Richtung Norden im Garten, als die Epic in maximal 100m Höhe mein Haus überflogen hat. Die Maschine hat den Ort überflogen, was sonst nur der Polizeihubschrauber darf, hab nur gerufen "Notlandung". Die Turbine lief, aber entweder unruhig oder es wurde gerade Gas herausgenommen, kein Rauch oder Flammen beobachtet. Die Maschine flog mit eingezogenem Fahrwerk ca 600 meter weiter und ist dann gefühlte 50 Meter hoch eng nach Westen eingekurvt ... ich dachte 1. das kann nicht sein und 2. gleich gibts nen Stall. Das passierte auch umgehend, die Epic ist über die linke Fläche abgeschmiert, hat noch eine halbe Rolle abwärts gemacht (so das ich die komplette Unterseite des Flugzeuges gesehen habe) und ist dann senkrecht mit sofortigem Aufschlagbrand eingeschlagen. "

My translation:

"I was at the police station Darmstadt today to give my eye-witness report. Just to dispel some speculation here: I live 600 metres south abeam of the westerly threshold of the runway at EDFE. I happened to be in my garden, looking north, as the Epic flew over my house, not more than 100 m high. The machine flew over the village, which normally only the police helicopter is permitted to do, I just called out "emergency landing". The turbine was running, but either it was running rough or had just been throttled back, I could see no smoke or flames. The machine flew with retracted landing gear maybe 600 more metres and turned tightly to the west in what felt like a height of 50 metres. ... I thought (1) this cannot happen and (2) soon there will be a stall. Which happened immediately, the Epic dipped over the left wing, made half a roll downwards (so that I could see the entire bottom of the aircraft) and impacted vertically, immediately followed by an impact fire."


So if the witness is not mistaken, it did not turn into final, which would have been to the east, but turned west, in the wrong direction, possibly because it was already over the runway and maybe intended to turn away and try again.

Here's the approach chart with the only permitted approach path to 08 for turbine-powered aircraft dotted in red:
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x896/aip_vfr_6_ef1aca53982ffad25c344469ffdc732c1844e1f3.png

Since the runway is 1400 m long (just under a mile) you can see that it is a very short final approach. I have only ever flown to EDFE in a very slow single-piston aircraft, and mostly to 26, so I imagine it is quite challenging to 08 in a fast turboprop.

The blue dashed line west of the Autobahn marks the border of the CTR of Frankfurt/Main EDDF. Being a very high-traffic airport, they don't like infringements at all.

So if it was flying over Erzhausen, it was on the correct side of the Autobahn, but still much too far to the east. Many VFR approach and departure routes in Germany follow motorways, because they are very easy to identify, and most of the time the routes are on the right side of the motorway, as is the case here. Approach to 08 is on the eastern side, and departure from 26 is on the western side.


Bernd

[bsieker]

There have been many witnesses at the airfield, so no shortage of information.


I translated the witness report in the other thread (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/620028-one-russia-s-richest-women-killed-private-jet-crashes-germany.html#post10435880) and also posted the approach chart with the only permitted approach to 08 for turbine-powered aircraft. It is a very short final.

Bernd

[ChickenHouse]

I translated the witness report in the other thread (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/620028-one-russia-s-richest-women-killed-private-jet-crashes-germany.html#post10435880) and also posted the approach chart with the only permitted approach to 08 for turbine-powered aircraft. It is a very short final.

Bernd
If you measure it you will find it is the standard 0.8 nm ICAO standard. And no, the red dotted flight path drawn is wrong, not the path the Epic flew.

[bsieker]

If you measure it you will find it is the standard 0.8 nm ICAO standard.



The whole runway is just 0.76 NM, and there is no displaced threshold for landing 08, so the whole runway is available. And if you extend the runway to the left by the same amount again (yellow bar, still less than 0.8 NM), you end up at the turn to crosswind for departing aircraft, the dashed line with the arrowhead at the bottom, which goes in southerly direction on the western side of the motorway.

If you mark the final (orange bar) for the arriving traffic, going on the eastern side of the motorway, and copy that mark to the scale at the bottom of the chart, you see that it is only 0.4 NM.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/549x610/aip_vfr_6_002_3711b29430fc5b3952b49542daf4931ad3ebe7f6.png

And no, the red dotted flight path drawn is wrong, not the path the Epic flew.

Yes, I know that the Epic didn't fly the red dotted path, and I didn't write that it had. How would I plot a path that nobody knows? I clearly wrote that the red dotted path is the only permitted approach to 08 for turbine aircraft. It is the path it should have flown:


3. Approaches in the traffic circuits and departures from the traffic circuits in conjunction with the provisions of the ATZ
3.1 Approaches with jet aircraft and turboprops
Approaches with jet aircraft and turboprops are only permitted subject to the following provisions:
a) For runway 08:
Entry via DELTA along the A5 motorway onto right base of runway 08.
b) For runway 26:
Entry via YANKEE directly onto final approach.

Bernd

[anxiao]

At 300 feet per mile profile that is a very tricky approach to fly. You'd need to be based there and do it every day to be proficient.

Noise abatement profiles have a lot to answer for in aircraft accidents.

[ChickenHouse]

only permitted approach to 08 for turbine aircraft.
Do you really believe in any permissions needed or applicable?

[bsieker]

Do you really believe in any permissions needed or applicable?

It doesn't say (nor did I) that any permissions are needed. But being busy and so close to Germany's largest international airport, Egelsbach has one of the longest sections in the German AIP VFR (longer than most towered airports), which includes precise procedures as to how and where approaches and departures must be flown. It has nothing to do with beliefs.

If you have read the other thread then you will have seen that I have linked to the Charts, which also include all textual descriptions for the procedures for approaches and departures to and from Egelsbach. Just take a look. I've flown there, I know how it works. In recent years the procedures have been somewhat relaxed, there are now no longer mandatory reporting points (as far as I know, EDFE was the only untowered airfield in Germany to have those), and it was technically inside Frankfurt CTR during the day. That is no longer the case, instead it is now an ATZ/RMZ/TMZ (aerodrome traffic zone, radio mandatory zone, transponder mandataory zone), but the approach and departure routes still apply and must be followed, unless an exception has been granted by Egelsbach INFO explicitly.

Bernd

[bsieker]

Noise abatement profiles have a lot to answer for in aircraft accidents.

Perhaps, but this isn't noise abatement. This is staying clear of Frankfurt/Main EDDF IFR traffic.

Bernd

[redsnail]

Used to fly there in the Hawker and we've now stopped doing the 08 approaches in the Challenger. The sim training was interesting to say the least. You really had to be at the right speed, right RoD, correct AoB or else it was a go-around. You needed to bring your A game to fly the 08 approach in a reasonable performance jet.
I can't speak for turboprops.

[ChickenHouse]

Bernd
I am sorry and apologize for not being clear enough.

I frequently fly to EDFE, very frequently, and am quite in knowledge of the exact situation there, IFR and VFR. I was flying there yesterday, followed the whole story from radar to info on the radio, as I was not far later behind the aircraft and had to wait in the air until the airfield opened again after the accident. I did fly directly over the wreckage field on approach to runway 08 while the police and rescue was still working down there. I did talk to the people at the airfield, so, yes, I was rather close to what happened. Sorry, in my humble opinion your text is the biggest bull**** I ever read after such an accident.

I am out of this discussion. Have a nice life.

[bsieker]

I am sorry and apologize for not being clear enough.

I frequently fly to EDFE, very frequently, and am quite in knowledge of the exact situation there, IFR and VFR. I was flying there yesterday, followed the whole story from radar to info on the radio, as I was not far later behind the aircraft and had to wait in the air until the airfield opened again after the accident. I did fly directly over the wreckage field on approach to runway 08 while the police and rescue was still working down there. I did talk to the people at the airfield, so, yes, I was rather close to what happened. Sorry, in my humble opinion your text is the biggest bull**** I ever read after such an accident.

I am out of this discussion. Have a nice life.




Excuse me? Nothing of that has anything to do with what I wrote.

I posted the charts and marked the prescribed approach route and showed that final approach, when flown according to the charts, is a lot shorter than 0.8NM. So what exactly is BS about that?

I didn't say anything about what happened in this accident. But you just repeatedly told me that things I hadn't written were wrong. So?

So please, for all of us to learn, tell us what exactly is wrong with my text.

After all, if you don't share what you know, how are we supposed to learn and improve?

Kind regards,
Bernd

[LGW Vulture]

For those of you who don't know.....the deceased's husband owns Epic Aircraft.

He himself was the first pilot to break his machine...now his wife has been killed in one.

Rather damn unfortunate....hope the machine isn't to blame in any way. Chin up those of you in Bend.

[MartinAOA]

Having flown privileged people for now almost 30 years, some are, most aren´t.
Most businessmen, businesswomen, some oligarchs and successful people in general are risk takers...

[Propsforever]

I have flown many times over the last 20yrs. into EDFE in Turboprop and Jet AC.

Its no real Problem in a Turboprop, " If you are on Top of the Game". I flew in C90-BE200-BE300-B350..., and it is perfectly managable "if you stick to the numbers" in a Jet.

But when i started flying Jet in my Company (Company demanded 500hrs COP, before Command) i saw some rather interesting Approaches into Rwy 09 ( Cpts scaring the **** out of me and i had been flying as CPT/TRI the last 20+ yrs.).
I usually had to talk them into rwy09, otherwise i got to see: to high- to fast - to late turn into final - to much bank- to late descend ... from Experienced FAR25 Cpts with almost no VFR Experience.

So i can imagine this Scenario quite easily and flying Single Pilot doesnt help there.

[punkalouver]

The whole runway is just 0.76 NM, and there is no displaced threshold for landing 08, so the whole runway is available. And if you extend the runway to the left by the same amount again (yellow bar, still less than 0.8 NM), you end up at the turn to crosswind for departing aircraft, the dashed line with the arrowhead at the bottom, which goes in southerly direction on the western side of the motorway.

If you mark the final (orange bar) for the arriving traffic, going on the eastern side of the motorway, and copy that mark to the scale at the bottom of the chart, you see that it is only 0.4 NM.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/549x610/aip_vfr_6_002_3711b29430fc5b3952b49542daf4931ad3ebe7f6.png



Yes, I know that the Epic didn't fly the red dotted path, and I didn't write that it had. How would I plot a path that nobody knows? I clearly wrote that the red dotted path is the only permitted approach to 08 for turbine aircraft. It is the path it should have flown:
Bernd

To ensure some clarity, this approach route is on the visual operations chart and is flown by piston engine aircraft under VFR. I have never flown a turbine aircraft at this airport and am unsure of what they or piston aircraft do under VFR or IFR procedures although I assume they follow the same riute when VFR. The reason for the close in base leg is due to airspace for Frankfurt international.

[atakacs]

Sorry, in my humble opinion your text is the biggest bull**** I ever read after such an accident.

I am out of this discussion. Have a nice life.
I think you are a little short on specifics.

I don't claim to have any knowledge of the situation at hand but I certainly appreciated Bernd's input so far. In what respect is it so much off base?

[MarcK]

The prop was not turning at the time of the crash:
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/918x516/contentbroker_contentid_8e0b20f366534108a1c8304d91ab5710_7a3 71818ab831c626aae6e0d289c969be554d870.png
Prop not turning

[GordonR_Cape]

The prop was not turning at the time of the crash:


On first impressions perhaps. The eyewitness report in the other thread may offer a different explanation:
I thought (1) this cannot happen and (2) soon there will be a stall. Which happened immediately, the Epic dipped over the left wing, made half a roll downwards (so that I could see the entire bottom of the aircraft) and impacted vertically, immediately followed by an impact fire."

If the aircraft crashed inverted, it is quite possible that there was no immediate contact between the propeller and the ground, so I'm not sure that assumption is valid. IMO an uncommanded PT6 turbine shutdown seconds before landing seems extraordinarily unlikely.

[EDLB]

IMO an uncommanded PT6 turbine shutdown seconds before landing seems extraordinarily unlikely.
But it did not produce any power at the time of impact. Regardless in what position it hit the ground. Otherwise all blades would be bent.

[Vilters]

My first post was deleted.
But the stall, wing drop and pretty brutal flipover is typical of a highly loaded short cord wing just like the examples I gave in my first post. All of them do the exact same thing.

[ironbutt57]

My first post was deleted.
But the stall, wing drop and pretty brutal flipover is typical of a highly loaded short cord wing just like the examples I gave in my first post. All of them do the exact same thing.

any wing whose critical angle of attack is exceeded will stall..

[GordonR_Cape]

But it did not produce any power at the time of impact. Regardless in what position it hit the ground. Otherwise all blades would be bent.

My speculative suggestion was based on the concept that the aircraft may not have impacted nose first, given the eyewitness report of an inverted orientation.

The comment that I was responding to, and the other parts of the eyewitness statement, imply something different from each other:
The turbine was running, but either it was running rough or had just been throttled back, I could see no smoke or flames.

My limited understanding cannot make sense of this. Is there any suggestion that engine shutdown had anything to do with the crash, or is the photo of the propellor completely unrelated to the real issues?

[Meester proach]

Oh why oh why don’t high net worth individuals fly in more suitable aircraft ?like a twin turbine ? Challenger or gulfstream ?

[bsieker]

[...] Rwy 09 [...]


Just a short clarification: Due to magnetic deviation drift, the runway was redesignated from 09/27 to 08/26 about 5 years ago. So Propsforever isn't mistaken when he talks about "09". It just means it was a few years ago. The basic approach procedures haven't changed a lot, though.

Bernd

[bsieker]

The prop was not turning at the time of the crash:



That is quite an astounding feat for a free-turbine engine such as the PT6A. Unbent prop blades can also mean that it didn't hit the ground with the propeller first. If it was fully stalled it could have impacted at almost any attitude. The BFU will quickly establish the running condition of the engine at impact.

Bernd

[Icarus2001]

Aviation savvy corporations do not place their top management in single engine non certified aircraft.

Something like putting a high net worth individual football player in a single engine aircraft with a PPL holder.

An aircraft is not an aircraft, yes, there are levels of safety.

A sad loss, condolences.

[ironbutt57]

Aviation savvy corporations do not place their top management in single engine non certified aircraft.

Something like putting a high net worth individual football player in a single engine aircraft with a PPL holder.

An aircraft is not an aircraft, yes, there are levels of safety.

A sad loss, condolences.

very true, guess since it is "their product" it was allowed..

[Magplug]

Oh why oh why don’t high net worth individuals fly in more suitable aircraft ?like a twin turbine ? Challenger or gulfstream ?
Successful business people (rather like airline managers) always have an eye on their costs. What's the point in spending big bucks when you can get the same service for less?... That's the mentality.

OTOH... They are paying for a door-to-door service because it is convenient to them and they can afford it. That will usually mean that they are not interested in how bad the weather is, or how many hours the crew has flown today, or how few hours TT the pilot has, or maybe if he is even licensed for this type of operation. They have paid a lot of money for this convenience and they want to fly without being bothered about the details.

[Volume]

Perhaps, but this isn't noise abatement. This is staying clear of Frankfurt/Main EDDF IFR traffic.
See this chart (https://www.egelsbach-airport.com/pdf/aip_H4/AIP_VFR_5.pdf) for details of the airspace situation. Egelsbach 08 approach is under the departure path of EDDF runway 18.
Lack of flexibility in airspace design... Departing aircraft from FRA are well above any approach path to Egelbach, both could actually use that airspace at different altitude, but this is not forseen in the ICAO standards.

[navajopilot]

Besides the unbent prop blades, could all those many airspeed changes during the flight (like shown in the flightradar24 replay) be another indication for an engine issue?

[tlk]

Oh why oh why don’t high net worth individuals fly in more suitable aircraft ?like a twin turbine ? Challenger or gulfstream ?
This 'kit' plane was something of a pet project.
Just like S7 as a company is almost an all-family venture, this a/c was sort of labour of love. The pilot was an experienced instructor for their company.
They do have a Gulfstream and dedicated pilots for it. They could easily afford a В737 BBJ if they wanted to.

[Propsforever]

@ Bsieker:

You are right, my last flight into Egelsbach has been a few Yrs. ago. but that doesnt change anything, ist still a tight Airspace - And a tight Approach to Rwy 08 overflying the Hightension Cables and performing a descending turn onto very short final with Something like Vref+10. And there is no other Appr. possible in that direction.

If traffic Permitted, flying a Turboprop we rather preferred to accept up to 10kt Tailwind and head for the Highperformance Appr. into Rwy (27) .

Company decided to fly to EDDF for Safety reasons, later on.

[jimjim1]

all those many airspeed changes during the flight (like shown in the flightradar24 replay)



According to their website the FR24 position data was obtained by MultiLateration (MLAT) and I suspect the groundspeed was likewise calculated from that. I guess that the varying groundspeed will be an artifact of the inaccurate position data.

Perhaps someone with an account can look to see if raw airspeed is available since that is not part of the free offering.

http://www.multilateration.com/surveillance/multilateration.html

[DaveReidUK]

Perhaps someone with an account can look to see if raw airspeed is available since that is not part of the free offering.

I don't recall seeing airspeed on any of the standard FR24 outputs available to subscribers.

Very few aircraft send ADS-B airspeed, so it's only available if the aircraft has Mode S EHS and is being interrogated by a suitably-equipped radar. Even then, it's a bit tricky to decode, though you can usually extract IAS and TAS with a bit of luck.

[9Aplus]

FR24 data for this flight ends approx. 32 km from destination airport.... Not of much use unfortunately.

[navajopilot]

According to their website the FR24 position data was obtained by MultiLateration (MLAT) and I suspect the groundspeed was likewise calculated from that. I guess that the varying groundspeed will be an artifact of the inaccurate position data.

Perhaps someone with an account can look to see if raw airspeed is available since that is not part of the free offering

That’s quite possible, of course. It just caught my eye, however, that the airspeed went up and down significantly all the time during this one last flight, while it was always constant during the prevoius ones... that appears a little strange to me.

[megan]

The prop was not turning at the time of the crashIf the prop was not turning it would be in the feathered position, obviously not the case in the photo. From the flight manual of an aircraft with the same engine.The propeller utilizes oil pressure which opposes the force of springs and counter-weights to obtain correct pitch for the engine load. Oil pressure from the propeller governor drives the blades toward low pitch (increases RPM) while the springs and counterweights drive the blades toward high pitch (decreasing RPM).

[Pilot DAR]

A normal PT6 which is shut down without first feathering the prop, will feather itself as oil pressure bleeds off, though it is not immediate (I tried it in a Twin Otter once). It's an avoid though, as from idle, the prop spins for some time until the blades have feathered themselves enough to really slow down quickly. During that time, the gearbox is not being supplied pressure oil I was told.

Though I doubt it on this aircraft, some PT6 propellers have blade latches to hold the blades in flat pitch after shutdown - generally for floatplane operation.

[Less Hair]

https://www.flugzeugforum.de/attachments/20190403_104858-png.1278874/

This is the route it took according to the eyewitness mentioned above.

[Jhieminga]

I've always tried to remember that props that lose oil pressure:
- go to feather (coarse pitch) on a multi-engine installation
- go to fine pitch on a single-engine installation.

Does that still apply to turbo-prop installations like a PT6?

[bsieker]

I've always tried to remember that props that lose oil pressure:
- go to feather (coarse pitch) on a multi-engine installation
- go to fine pitch on a single-engine installation.

Does that still apply to turbo-prop installations like a PT6?

It seems to me the reason it would go to fine pitch on a single-engine aircraft is to facilitate a (windmilling) restart. But that does not apply at all to free-turbine turboprops.

The TBM (also single-engine PT6A) manual says that in case of engine failure, the propeller will feather automatically. Counterweights drive pitch to high (coarse), oil pressure moves it towards low (fine) pitch.

Bernd

[Chronus]

Until now I had not heard of this type of aircraft. So I looked it up and thought of the old proverb, if it looks good it flies good. This one did not fit the proverb. Looks just like an airfix job that we used to glue together out of the box and hang it from the ceiling. Looks a cow to fly and if it gets to 325kts and lands at 90 then best to get an old time F104 G driver dust the moth balls off him and get him to drive the thing. Cheaper to pay for blown tyres every trip and if that`s too much get a chopper for the short hops.

[Jhieminga]

Thank you for confirming that Bernd, a useful thing to know. There are of course two situations: in case of an engine failure the fine pitch setting could assist a windmill start, but in case of a prop (governor) failure, the fine pitch setting will allow a go-around, at the expense of cruise performance. I was wondering if the second situation would still be valid on a SET.

Another thing I was thinking about is whether, for a free-turbine engine, the prop will keep spinning when one side hits the ground at a low forward speed? As there is no mechanical connection between the power turbine and the gas generator, at a low power setting such as during approach, could you have a situation where the prop is stopped by ground impact and therefore the other blades will not bend?

[Pilot DAR]

could you have a situation where the prop is stopped by ground impact and therefore the other blades will not bend?

Yes.

If the prop were unpowered in flat pitch in flight, it would create an unexpected amount of drag, and probably surprise the pilot as to the reduced glide characteristics. That airplane looks like gliding characteristics were not foremost in it's design consideration. That said, PT6 engines are very reliable.

[megan]

in case of an engine failure the fine pitch setting could assist a windmill start No it wont. The engine is a free turbine, so rotation of the N2 (prop) does nothing in getting the N1 to rotate. N1 has to be a minimum of 12% prior to introduction of fuel for a start. in case of a prop (governor) failure, the fine pitch setting will allow a go-around, at the expense of cruise performance Power available would be minimal. From a flight manual.

PROPELLER GOVERNOR - Under normal conditions, the governor acts as a constant speed unit, maintaining the propeller speed selected by the pilot by varying the propeller blade pitch to match the load to the engine torque. The propeller governor also has a power turbine governor section built into the unit. Its function is to protect the engine against a possible power turbine overspeed in the event of a propeller governor failure. If such an overspeed should occur, a governing orifice in the propeller governor is opened by flyweight action to bleed off compressor discharge pressure through the governor and computing section of the fuel control unit. When this occurs, compressor discharge pressure, acting on the fuel control unit governor bellows, decreases and moves the metering valve in a closing direction, thus reducing fuel flow to the flow divider.

PROPELLER OVERSPEED GOVERNOR - The governor acts as a safeguard against propeller overspeed should the primary propeller governor fail. The propeller overspeed governor regulates the flow of oil to the propeller pitch-change mechanism by means of a flyweight and speeder spring arrangement similar to the primary propeller governor. Because it has no mechanical controls, the overspeed governor is equipped with a test solenoid that resets the governor below its normal overspeed setting for ground test. The OVERSPEED GOVERNOR PUSH TO TEST Switch is located on the left side of the instrument panel.

PROPELLER - The propeller is constant-speed, full-feathering, reversible, single-acting, governor-regulated propeller. A setting introduced into the governor with the PROP RPM lever establishes the propeller speed. The propeller utilizes oil pressure which opposes the force of springs and counter-weights to obtain correct pitch for the engine load. Oil pressure from the propeller governor drives the blades toward low pitch (increases RPM) while the springs and counterweights drive the blades toward high pitch (decreasing RPM). The source of oil pressure for propeller operation is furnished by the engine oil system, boosted in pressure by the governor gear pump, and supplied to the propeller hub through the propeller flange.

[bsieker]

No it wont. The engine is a free turbine, so rotation of the N2 (prop) does nothing in getting the N1 to rotate. N1 has to be a minimum of 12% prior to introduction of fuel for a start.Power available would be minimal. From a flight manual.


Yes. If you had not cut my following sentence, you would see that that is exactly what I said. And so I went on to say that that is, from manuals I have seen, precisely what PT6A installations do not do.

What I actually wrote was:
It seems to me the reason it would go to fine pitch on a single-engine aircraft is to facilitate a (windmilling) restart. But that does not apply at all to free-turbine turboprops.

So I wonder why you felt a need to leave out my second sentence just to repeat the exact same thing I already said.

:confused:


Bernd

[megan]

Bernd, sorry, I fully recognised your latter sentence, and only made the post as folk may not realise the engine under discussion is a free turbine (PT-6) and to give some info on its operation. :ok:

[bsieker]

Bernd, sorry, I fully recognised your latter sentence, and only made the post as folk may not realise the engine under discussion is a free turbine (PT-6) and to give some info on its operation. :ok:

Sure, no problem. And thanks for the operational details.

Bernd