Training ban broken

[DownUnderThunder]

What recourse remains for us now?

[OneBarWonder]

Work somewhere else

[AntiClimatic]

all i can say is LOL.

****ty trainers being appointed against their will.

The system is already broken as it is. way to make it even more broken.

[The FUB]

The standards guys are going to have their work cut out

[mr did]

Finally the CAD will have to get involved. FOP have waited this long to do something this drastic because they know how risky it is.

Training is very much what CAD own and are directly responsible for. Legally. I cant wait for the invisible public servant responsible to say in writing that they are happy for this company to put people in these Training Captain positions under duress and threat.

Last roll of the dice it would seem.

[Frogman1484]

The CAD has told them they can appoint training Captains

[Starbear]

Never heard if this ever before anywhere and cannot imagine how it could work, unless of course, as I already suspect, it will simply be a mechanism to allow "forced" appointments of those already interested, who then claim they had no choice.

[mr did]

The CAD has told them they can appoint training Captains

Without the individual pilot's consent?? Really? What is your source?

[Natca]

Without the individual pilot's consent?? Really? What is your source?

Read all the letters between the aoa and cad for the last few months. However the cad says only if the pilot is suitable to be a trainer, ie giving the individual a way out.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

So many will take the position when they are told to .just wait

[flyhardmo]

Blame yourselves. You get the Union you voted for. The DFO has just bragged how he and the GC are buddies getting stuff sorted.

[Jnr380]

So if I get a letter in my mailbox saying “Congratulations, you have been selected to join the training department” what is the recourse if i say no? Do i lose my job? demoted to F/O? put on gardening leave?

[Oasis]

Maybe don’t read the vol8 on your next sim...

[RAT Management]

They still ask. Just like they do when they tell you that you have a command course. You can delay it for all matter of reasons. So those that go in will be those that want to. Simple as that.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

Read all the letters between the aoa and cad for the last few months. However the cad says only if the pilot is suitable to be a trainer, ie giving the individual a way out.

The simple fact that an individual would be unwilling to become a trainer would suffice to make him/her unsuitable to be one... There is no way they can force people into training against their will, that would be legal suicide. I suspect this is simply, as said above, a way to help the hesitant scabs across the ban.

Then again, there's your good old CX/Swire arrogance and condescension shining through...
It's never failed them before now, has it?
:rolleyes:

[Apple Tree Yard]

Wow, if there was ever an ill-advised Swire/CX strategy destined to prove the law of "unintended consequence", this is it. Going out to purchase more popcorn...

[Sand Man]

This will give all want to be trainers the ability to become trainers during the TB and just blame the company for forcing them. How do we know these appointed new trainers have not expressed their interest already?

[Dilbert68]

This will give all want to be trainers the ability to become trainers during the TB and just blame the company for forcing them. How do we know these appointed new trainers have not expressed their interest already?

The company has a long list of Captains wanting to join training, most of them would never have been selected years ago when there actually WAS a selection process. This amendment is meant to facilitate a path into training for these individuals. I doubt anybody will be forced to train, I'm sure some of these new trainers may claim this but the truth is that they are volunteers. Are they any good? Do they have the spare capacity to train and still safely fly the airplane? Probably not but nobody around here cares about that. Safety, standards, just culture, blah, blah, blah. It's all for show, we are becoming more unsafe every year, anyone who has been here awhile can see that.

[Frogman1484]

I heard about this two months ago that they asked the CAD if they can appoint training captains without their consent. They obviously said they can.



Without the individual pilot's consent?? Really? What is your source?

[TurningFinalRWY36]

No one will be made to do training. Anyone that does are those that have expressed interest in the past. It will be easy to tell as those selected will be sporadically located all over the seniority list .

[cannot]

This is a cunning scheme devised by the company to circumvent the training ban . This way various Capts who want to go into training will simply say they were coerced to take a training position and simply couldn’t say NO ! . So let’s see how many pass the course and remain in training . If you don’t want to go into training it’s very easy to fail the course or the online training . But I am prepared to say that some will willingly take up the mantle .

[ROW_BOT]

First the relaxed policy on DDO's, now this.
One has to wonder - has something changed at the CAD? New boss? New instructions from .Gov?

[Scoreboard]

The list they already have will be used. When they move to people who have not volunteered, clearly state your position that you think you are unsuitable to train and are doing so against your will (in writing) . Make sure this is on the record. Any future “incidents” would of course uncover this fact and the consequences would be fairly dire for the Jellyfish.
Having said this, the list of volunteers is probably fairly exhaustive from what I am hearing.



One good thing is being forced to be a trainer....you dont answer your phone.....remember all those TC and STCs bitching about 20 or more roster changes each month..."your a manager now so you answer that phone".....thats over. They grab all they like but now you do your roster and dont **** with my roster....dont answer your phone....your demoted.....woohoo


But hey for all those out there that said the training ban had no effect.......that was utter BS when CK had to resort to making it policy to upgrade to TC/STC. Right there on the video cant do JFO upgrades...same time they telling 777 FO your going into overtime in April...while we park jets and cancel flights.


Well done AOA committee

[RAT Management]

At a time where all the focus is on rosters and lifestyle. The forcing of training positions will be at the detriment of lifestyle and rosters, especially with the 4 year back log of training requirements that have been hidden behind the smoke screen of "training ban doesn't hurt the company" official statement. If people want these training positions then they can have them. They can then resent the same company that allowed them to loop hole into their crap roster. Oh, and perfect timing of you wanted a base.... 2 year embargo! Good luck getting that long overdue base. Sure you were forced into training!

[mngmt mole]

Just more evidence that confirms if you stay in HK and CX, you WILL regret your entire career at some point. Certainly you will reach a day where you wake up and bitterly wish you had taken the chance to leave when you had the opportunity.

[Scoreboard]

At a time where all the focus is on rosters and lifestyle. The forcing of training positions will be at the detriment of lifestyle and rosters, especially with the 4 year back log of training requirements that have been hidden behind the smoke screen of "training ban doesn't hurt the company" official statement. If people want these training positions then they can have them. They can then resent the same company that allowed them to loop hole into their crap roster. Oh, and perfect timing of you wanted a base.... 2 year embargo! Good luck getting that long overdue base. Sure you were forced into training!


**** just applied base....got a good shot at it and then they screw me out of my slot......OMFG

[Air Profit]

Does anyone need more proof that our TB/CC has been slowly strangling the company? They can press-gang as many people as they want into training (in truth, it will really only be the ones that have indicated to the company they want to train), but it won't make any difference as more and more pilots wake up to the fact that they need to get themselves hired by an airline that is sane, and in a part of the world they can actually afford to raise a family in. There are too many holes in the dike, and no amount of management shenanigans will change the inevitable outcome of this failed and broken airline.

[The FUB]

Timing is coincidental with, apparently , trainers receiving an email, more joker leave and a company backed loss of license insurance. Union busting I'd say.

[PatObrien]

Listen to this and let it sink in, especially if wearing a red lanyard: “Training appointments are at the sole discretion of the
company and suitable pilots will no longer have the right to refuse a training appointment” (funny, I don’t see this statement in 14.8). Since this is absolutely the primary weapon in the pilot arsenal, do we stand together and resist - meaning STRIKE, no doubt individuals will be targeted and forced to make a choice (do they have the Union/pilot body behind them, or are they on their own?). This is the end game. End the Union, end pilot resistance. All the sweet talk - basings, pay talks, Arap, HKPA increase - just drinks to cloud your judgement until back at the flat with your clothes off.

[Farman Biplane]

You pruners are such drama queens! They will appoint those already on the list into training. Anyone who is drafted into training against their wishes will be a thorn in the side of the CX training unit. It is folly to think that this will break a union or will solve the CX training problem. Safety is our number one priority, so I can imagine extra fuel and many more go arounds will be the norm!

[mothy1583]

And the already stretched training resources will be tied up for 6 months training the new trainers. It's not like this is some quick fix. The last thing they will be able to achieve is a joker conversion for awarding base slots let alone any form of expansion, they're struggling to keep up with regulatory checks. Plus, some genius decided we should add training Virgin on the A50 into the mix - must have been a lucrative offer.

[controlledrest]

Being forced into training is not an improvement in your COS, so it has to be agreed to. One can refuse a training appointment. Those who do accept 'forced' training appointments are company bitches. They must be kicked out of the AOA and treated as lepers.

[kenfoggo]

Please be realistic. Nobody can be FORCED or COERCED into a training position. Any new training Captains who appear on the roster will be people who have already expressed an interest in becoming a Training Captain.
They will be acting under the cloak of legitimacy generated by the so called change as announced by the DFO.
They will be volunteers.

[okm]

Scoreboard...Jesus mate. Do you even proof read your dribble?

[A3301FD]

They must be kicked out of the AOA and treated as lepers.

Like members of the GC who violate Contract Compliance...oh wait a minute...

[Natca]

If any of these "forced trainers" are stupid enough to fall for this trick and not read their own cos which clearly states it is voluntary only and C&T is an equivalent to a management position. As COS reads they were hired to only operate company aircraft as per their cos and if they cant figure that out by reading their own contract god help us at the bull**** that they might be trying to "train" the rest of us on.

Lets hold these ban breakers accountable.

[BusyB]

The truthful answer to this is to say you have lost confidence in management and therefore cannot take up a management position. A list of reasons would be broken contracts, breach of FTL's, the list is endless.

[Samsonite]

You can only go to the well so often which is what happened in the TB. Of course they were going to figure out a way around it, who wouldn't !! Now no strangle hold as well as no contract and everything company policy. Great job to the loud obnoxious NO people who shot down TA16, you have ruined everyones careers here as well as cost everyone a lot of money and security!!!

[Air Profit]

Ruined career (supposedly by your colleagues). I suppose the only sensible thing to do then Samsonite is leave. Watch out for that swinging door on the way out.

(oh, and btw, those "loud obnoxious NO people" were the majority of voters in your union, just saying)

[Samsonite]

In 2016 the NO vote (barely majority) was a bunch of followers listening to some big mouths that will always say NO to any deal. Air Profit, funny handle for someone who considers the careers earrings lost because of people like that as acceptable.. Typical, no common sense

[mngmt mole]

At some point you stand up to the bully, even at personal cost. Many of us felt that was an acceptable course of action. There are also people who's only value is $$$. I didn't read where AP said he thought the loss of earnings was "acceptable" Samsonite. Only that he seems to feel (like the majority of voters at that time) that it was time to take a stand. Oh, btw, what about the latest vote? I suppose you think most of us once again couldn't think for ourselves. If we had voted for the worst deal ever offered, imagine how we would be feeling now, after they announce a large profit, AND purchase another airline. People like you will always want to blame others for your problems. Me, I blame CX management for nearly all the misery and loss, and not my colleagues.

[The FUB]

From which fleet will the next TC quit??

[main_dog]

Exactly right, mngmt mole. Well said.

[Samsonite]

MM stood up for what? TA16 was turned down because of clause 7 which most western world contracts incorporate into their labour laws. It brought everything else into our contract and wasn't just company policy. You didn't like the deal ok so now TB show us our next card to play, I only see one and 90% of the members will never do that so be the leader your pretend to be and show us the way!!!

BTW 10 new trainers already volunteered.

[Slasher1]

To me; this seems more like top cover for scabs than anything else, but I do wonder if individuals might be coerced into training positions.

I’ve never heard of such a thing. My suggestion might be if this creates safety concerns it be forwarded to the CAD for investigation. In that the CAD could be placed in a fox guarding the hen house type of situation it might also be prudent to forward the concerns to the regulatory agencies of the other nations into which CX operates and request their assistance in making an unbiased investigation into the matter. As well as a determination of— given the safety and qualification concerns — whether or not the airline remains safe enough to operate within their airspace.

[Runnymede]

At some point, the repugnant truth of what’s gone on here at CX, since Eddington graced as with his presence, then Ron Davis and Clemmow completely usurped Flight Ops, making us wholly subservient to the Personnel Department (oops, the People Department), this total emasculation (not usually but can be applied in the feminine as well) of Flight Ops, has simmered and now purcolated to a point where most of us are angry, disillusioned and resigned to our collective fate - that of being pecked to death by a succession of self serving, lying and transient DUCKS (Dutiful Underlings Conspiring Knowingly with Swire).......that knowingly smile at us, as they take the perks and bonuses, whilst knowingly screwing their own brethren.

It’s simple and it’s true, to simply hold the line as aviators with lives and families and very long memories, is better than taking a few $$ extra, from the hands of people we know simply can’t lay straight in bed.

Enough good folk know the truth and it’s being recognised slowly by the grownups, such that the culprits are finding it harder and harder to cover their tracks and paint over the cracks. Will justice prevail and wrongs be righted? That’s a pipe dream in any large corporation, yet to crawl into bed with dogs means a certain case of fleas!

Thoughts - “the ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all”. John. F. Kennedy.
- “if not us, who? - if not now, when?”. John. F. Kennedy.
- “those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable”. John. F. Kennedy.

Finally - “I would rather die a slave to principles than a slave to man”. Emiliano Zapata.

[A3301FD]

““After all, if you do not resist the apparently inevitable, you will never know how inevitable the inevitable was.”

- written on some ****house door, in some ****hole country.

[unitedabx]

Like our current DFO who famously said "there is no money in the pot" and 6 weeks later sat and watched the company buy an airline for 5 billion is cash so PC famously said "the TB was having little or no effect on the company". History tells us that "conscripts" never win against professional volunteers.

Both chararcters so utterly discredited that they are the laughing stock of the pilot community. The sad thing is they don't see it. They don't get it. The TB has/is and will continue to have an impact. If you are selected to become a trainer, take the cash and just keep doing what you are doing when you fly. When the doors shut it's your aircraft. If no training takes place what are management going to do fire you from training ?

Meantime the FTM offices continue to upgrade their teams to STC and BTC to cover the inevitable wave of resignations that will insue.

[viking avenger]

Slahser, in reference to your points about regulators and other countries, at some point the pilots of the airline that are wanting to defend their contract will have to step up and defend THEIR contract. The pilots can't wish and hope someone else does the fighting for them. Other Countries stepping in will only happen if there is an accident, which no one wants to see.

[cannot]

They cannot force you to be an enthusiastic or even a good trainer . The whole premise of being a trainer is to have sufficient spare capacity to rescue any situation at any time during the flight . You get a chance to practice this many times in the Sim . So if you screw it up and crash the sim , you ain’t going to become a training captain .
Let’s assume that no matter what they promote you . If you don’t care about being removed from training ,You don’t have to train or even file training reports that contain useful information . Progressing well is always a good fall back position .if you are coerced Take the money and simply get the aircraft safety from A-B . As for the students well sorry but you never requested to become a trainer and you have no interest in being forced to pass on your knowledge . As an example You are required to teach the fuel policy , Too hard ! Simply tell the student to read the appropriate manual .
This will,be a disaster , necessitating longer training times for students to cover required items and or additional training following a failed check .
Personally , I still maintain that this is the company’s way of promoting captains who have expressed an interest in becoming training captains ,so from my perspective anyone who stays in the system for more than a few months are volunteers and not conscripts and need to be dealt with

[mngmt mole]

Colleagues, this is a laughable method for the company to pretend to "insist" all pilots are now selectable for training. In reality, it is a barely disguised method for the company to now move people into training WHO HAVE EXPRESSED A DESIRE TO DO SO. This simply gives them cover ("...I was forced by the company.."). It will be quite evident that this is a farce when you see the seniority numbers of those who are doing their training upgrades. If it is not everyone in seniority order, then it will plainly be those who have chosen to break the TB. Be so advised, and act accordingly. Having said that, I have to give the management credit for thinking this up. Genius. Shame they couldn't have simply negotiated in good faith, which seems to be the only thing they can't bring themselves to do. The long, inexorable descent to oblivion is well and truly continuing. Get out while you still have career prospects elsewhere. Staying at CX will destroy everyone of you, psychologically and physically. No doubt about that at all.

[The FUB]

Letters sent out end of last year to a whole bunch of CNs asking if they would consider TC once the TB was no longer in force. Also a handful of TFOs, in case there was limited take up.

So you can't hide behind "they made me do it"

[Slasher1]

I bet we can all name the Desperados who will be 'forced' into training. Once the names are published in OM-D, we'll all go, 'Yep, THAT guy! No surprise there!'
Desperado is entirely too nice a word for someone who would do something like this at this point.

[Trevor the lover]

Which airline we talking about? There's a large number in the region.

[unitedabx]

Letters sent out end of last year to a whole bunch of CNs asking if they would consider TC once the TB was no longer in force. Also a handful of TFOs, in case there was limited take up.

So you can't hide behind "they made me do it"

52 captains already volunteering on the Airbus fleet to upgrade. Meanwhile the FTM777 has resigned.

[EFIS Check]

HOW TO BREAK THE TRAINING BAN:

1. Approach CAD and have strategy pre-approved. If they seem concerned remind them who pays their salaries.

2. Check with the legal team that CoS are not breached. If a broad violation is unavoidable ensure a legal fight can be protracted until such time your goals have been achieved.

3. Change company docs accordingly.

4. Compile a list of suitable non-volunteering volunteers.
a. Compile a list of those who have expressed an interest in training, subject to the training ban being lifted. Add to the list those who have shown a lot of “engagement” through office visits, uncritical yammer posts and those volunteering for other initiatives (FDAP, CRM, Fuel Saving group, LOSA, etc.) and those sending in useless photos of sunsets and airplanes.
b. Unofficially invite those on the list to "have a chat" and ask if they would object to becoming "reluctant collaborators".
c. Brief successful candidates that if approached by colleagues to stress that they have been forced. If need be, apply harassment & intimidation policy.

5. Intimidate pilots.
a. Sack a few of those bored, loudly barking, pointless motion proposers to shut up the rest of the pilots. Any odd excuse will do, incl. not adhering to uniform standards or checking the allowance sheet for roster changes. How can you have confidence in somebody not wearing a hat ?!
b. If you have to evaluate non-volunteering non-volunteers and they fail the assessment, demote them to FO for lack of core competencies – that will show the rest to pull up their socks.

6. Write plentiful updates in a very conciliatory and reasonable tone. Within:
a. Stress compromise, engagement, mutual respect, partnership, common goals, whilst doing the exact opposite.
b. Schedule pointless meetings with the AOA so you can claim you have consulted. Use the word “stakeholders” a lot.
c. Pretend you are forcing through the changes only in the interest of the employees, the silent majority and the greater good, ignoring the fact that 80% have voted against of what you are forcing down their throat.

7. Give the AOA the full bukkake experience
a. Have AOA-member-trainers train the new candidates
b. Force members of the GC to become trainers.

8. If any of the above fails you can rely on the infighting of AOA members, paralysing any comprehensive counter strategy.

If any of you think that every random Tom, Dick and Harry may be asked to become a trainer you are likely to also believe in the tooth fairy. This is industrial relations theater !

The company is doing nothing less but dismantling the AOA and condemning it to irrelevance. Good luck to us !
Turns out you can vote whichever way you want when it comes to TA’s, you will always end up with the CX mixologist’s rum and coke. The illusion of choice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm4fEeJ501U

[CyberT]

HOW TO BREAK THE TRAINING BAN:

1. Approach CAD and have strategy pre-approved. If they seem concerned remind them who pays their salaries.

2. Check with the legal team that CoS are not breached. If a broad violation is unavoidable ensure a legal fight can be protracted until such time your goals have been achieved.

3. Change company docs accordingly.

4. Compile a list of suitable non-volunteering volunteers.
a. Compile a list of those who have expressed an interest in training, subject to the training ban being lifted. Add to the list those who have shown a lot of “engagement” through office visits, uncritical yammer posts and those volunteering for other initiatives (FDAP, CRM, Fuel Saving group, LOSA, etc.) and those sending in useless photos of sunsets and airplanes.
b. Unofficially invite those on the list to "have a chat" and ask if they would object to becoming "reluctant collaborators".
c. Brief successful candidates that if approached by colleagues to stress that they have been forced. If need be, apply harassment & intimidation policy.

5. Intimidate pilots.
a. Sack a few of those bored, loudly barking, pointless motion proposers to shut up the rest of the pilots. Any odd excuse will do, incl. not adhering to uniform standards or checking the allowance sheet for roster changes. How can you have confidence in somebody not wearing a hat ?!
b. If you have to evaluate non-volunteering non-volunteers and they fail the assessment, demote them to FO for lack of core competencies – that will show the rest to pull up their socks.

6. Write plentiful updates in a very conciliatory and reasonable tone. Within:
a. Stress compromise, engagement, mutual respect, partnership, common goals, whilst doing the exact opposite.
b. Schedule pointless meetings with the AOA so you can claim you have consulted. Use the word “stakeholders” a lot.
c. Pretend you are forcing through the changes only in the interest of the employees, the silent majority and the greater good, ignoring the fact that 80% have voted against of what you are forcing down their throat.

7. Give the AOA the full bukkake experience
a. Have AOA-member-trainers train the new candidates
b. Force members of the GC to become trainers.

8. If any of the above fails you can rely on the infighting of AOA members, paralysing any comprehensive counter strategy.

If any of you think that every random Tom, Dick and Harry may be asked to become a trainer you are likely to also believe in the tooth fairy. This is industrial relations theater !

The company is doing nothing less but dismantling the AOA and condemning it to irrelevance. Good luck to us !
Turns out you can vote whichever way you want when it comes to TA’s, you will always end up with the CX mixologist’s rum and coke. The illusion of choice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm4fEeJ501U



The AOA are already dead. The emphasis is now on getting the hell out of here before there is a serious accident and other seniority lists close.

[petrichor]

This is a cunning scheme devised by the company to circumvent the training ban . This way various Capts who want to go into training will simply say they were coerced to take a training position and simply couldn’t say NO ! . So let’s see how many pass the course and remain in training . If you don’t want to go into training it’s very easy to fail the course or the online training . But I am prepared to say that some will willingly take up the mantle .

Not really cunning..more like a predictable response to a predictable and failed strategy by the union. Almost everyone saw this coming and yet we persevered, as usual we have only ourselves to blame.

[cannot]

It’s no so much that you have yourselves to blame as the fact that you are being sold down the river by selfish pilots who will not abide by the AOA TB . In the old days these people would have been taken behind the barn for a little re education .
but as long as you have people who are prepared to go against the union rules nothing will ever be achieved . Maybe the way things were handled in the old days was better

[unitedabx]

Publish their names and let the pilot community 'deal' with them. Arrive at an outport and make sure they are not invited out. In the flight deck stick to the checklist and don't engage in chat. There are so many things individual pilots can do to make it very clear these defacto SCABS are outed.

[BalusKaptan]

Absolutely!!
Also consider, how do you draft someone into training who doesn't want to do it? What quality of training will that provide? Basically, it would be just multi-engine, single pilot IFR. Not much different to what we do some of the time now with the 'talent' that has been coming through.

[unitedabx]

Absolutely!!
Also consider, how do you draft someone into training who doesn't want to do it? What quality of training will that provide? Basically, it would be just multi-engine, single pilot IFR. Not much different to what we do some of the time now with the 'talent' that has been coming through.

Of course there is always the "option" to keep writing in the training files "unsatisfactory progress". That would clog the system in a matter of hours.

[arse]

TPMS entry:

"Sectors need to be reflown due to the student being unable to absorb inefficient instructional input"

[unitedabx]

TPMS entry:

"Sectors need to be reflown due to the student being unable to absorb inefficient instructional input"

S
"Sectors require repeating. Instructor NFI" ( not f***ing interested )

[unitedabx]

"Instructor couldn't care less "

[1200firm]

So it could be like 1996 when AOA members were training direct entry ASL captains......

[cxorcist]

So it could be like 1996 when AOA members were training direct entry ASL captains......

Isn’t it like that already? ASL contract looks awesome compared to today’s new joiners, in fact far better, as were the trainees.

[Vtwin]

What's all the hubbub? The Brits have used press gangs before. That's how they manned the Royal Navy, forced enlistment. It worked back then...why not now?

[cabbages]

What's all the hubbub? The Brits have used press gangs before. That's how they manned the Royal Navy, forced enlistment. It worked back then...why not now?


A brilliant, incisive and witty analogy Vtwin. I could be wrong but my guess is you're American.

[Slasher1]

Seems like the standard Modus Operandi around here.

Except there's a whole bunch more ways to jump ship these days. Or camp out under the poop deck.

So while it may kinda work, it probably won't kinda work very well.

And if you look at where the Brits were then and where they are now might not work out very well in the long run either.

Arrrrgh and Alas me mateys. Ship's being overrun with scabs and the skipper'n the crows' nest drunk'n the rum again.

[badge42]

Is it true that there is such a thing as a ‘change of instructor request’?

[Sqwak7700]

Not really cunning..more like a predictable response to a predictable and failed strategy by the union. Almost everyone saw this coming and yet we persevered, as usual we have only ourselves to blame.

That makes a lot a sense. So the TB is a failed strategy but it required a response. Let me guess, you are involved in writing some of our manuals?

If it requires a response, that is the opposite of a failed strategy. It was and continues to be a a very good strategy that has brought this whole airline to its knees and recycled many a useless manager. Maybe you are next? Or maybe you are one of the muppets who will try to use this NTC as an excuse?

Let me save you the suspense and spoil the ending. You will be looked at as a scab and it will follow you the rest of your miserable career here.

[Vtwin]

A brilliant, incisive and witty analogy Vtwin. I could be wrong but my guess is you're American.
Yes, and proudly. We pulled the same stunts too back in the day on the Left Coast. Called it being Shanghaied. Easy on the compliments, I did choose to work at CX with the rest of us after-all. Even worse, I stick around...

[unitedabx]

CAD have NOT signed off on this. Appointment to TC is an internal company matter. Upgrade to STC and BTC does require CAD approvals.

[Oasis]

It seems to me the company is a bit schizo lately, but it all makes sense now.
First they give hkpa increase, great.. But mostly for the young ones... The housing for the old ones is less..
Then they force people into training, good for the young ones (faster upgrade times, forgetting about undermining the training ban's effectiveness), bad for the old ones (no control over your own career, unable to leave without probably a very good explanation)
It is now blatantly obvious that our company now only acts to appease the young pilots, as they are the ones leaving and have less to lose by leaving, while they don't care so much anymore for the people who already put all that time in...(sunk cost fallacy, anyone?)

So, if you are a young pilot, and you have options, take note of how the company treats the more senior pilots, this will be you...
Don't be fooled by how things appear to be improving for you now, but instead look at how it will look for you down the line, when you have committed to the airline have a command and a high seniority number and it does not make much sense to leave anymore.

[petrichor]

That makes a lot a sense. So the TB is a failed strategy but it required a response. Let me guess, you are involved in writing some of our manuals?

If it requires a response, that is the opposite of a failed strategy. It was and continues to be a a very good strategy that has brought this whole airline to its knees and recycled many a useless manager. Maybe you are next? Or maybe you are one of the muppets who will try to use this NTC as an excuse?

Let me save you the suspense and spoil the ending. You will be looked at as a scab and it will follow you the rest of your miserable career here.

Wrong sqwak.
sqwak - now that's an appropriate pseudonym for you.... "nonsensical blabbering"...or did you misspell squawk? Either of which suggests you are at the lower end of the food chain, best to keep the responses factual here if you want to join the grown ups rather than going straight for the abuse.

[cxorcist]

It seems to me the company is a bit schizo lately, but it all makes sense now.
First they give hkpa increase, great.. But mostly for the young ones... The housing for the old ones is less..
Then they force people into training, good for the young ones (faster upgrade times, forgetting about undermining the training ban's effectiveness), bad for the old ones (no control over your own career, unable to leave without probably a very good explanation)
It is now blatantly obvious that our company now only acts to appease the young pilots, as they are the ones leaving and have less to lose by leaving, while they don't care so much anymore for the people who already put all that time in...(sunk cost fallacy, anyone?)

So, if you are a young pilot, and you have options, take note of how the company treats the more senior pilots, this will be you...
Don't be fooled by how things appear to be improving for you now, but instead look at how it will look for you down the line, when you have committed to the airline have a command and a high seniority number and it does not make much sense to leave anymore.

Very astute observation. Since joining, I’ve marveled at how CX uses seniority’s privileges and hands them to junior pilots. The most obvious example is the request system on the roster which looks at everyone’s first request (in seniority order) before cycling back. So the most junior pilot on the list gets his/her first choice before the most senior get his/her second. Lack of fleet transfer is another area where senior pilots get pigeon holed while junior pilots upgrade on preferred aircraft. The joker system is, well, a joke! Leave is not allocated at all by seniority, as is the case at most airlines. Even the CMP’s JCR will be done by “weighted fair share” with little to no regard given to seniority. Bottom line... If you want a normal seniority driven lifestyle and career, don’t come (or stay) at CX! It will never be a seniority airline.

[Slasher1]

Yup. The Company loves to play the divide and conquer on a Master's degree level--3 level chess to the long term. Playing pretty much everyone off against everyone and everywhere else (FWIW this does NOT result in a happy or particularly productive work force or work environment--but I don't think this is much of a goal--viewing people who fly airplanes much like the fuel that is used to power them). I hear people whinge and whine and then dutifully put extra time into work; to me personally reminds me of an abused spouse sprucing up dinner (maybe if I don't overcook his steak he won't hit me THIS time). The fact that someone would consider putting MORE time in by going into training is wholly baffling (not to mention you will be thought of as a scab for the rest of your life--and someday have to live with this).

So I think one is wise to look at what level of commitment (from a personal perspective) that one wants to give such a place. For sure, there ARE some decent people here (who are worth knowing and as friends and nice to spend time with and see) but on the macro level you're fodder for the boiler.

The IMPORTANT thing to realize if you're on the bottom rungs is that the pot o' stuff targeted down the road for cuts ('screw those greedy A scalers') is the pot o' stuff you aren't going to get downline. You're cutting YOUR own throat if you buy into the paradigm. And to realize there's the same target opportunity BEHIND you in new hires that the company will attempt to persuade to target YOU. One who is considering anything related to POS 18 from a refugee country might want to consider how this spiral has evolved and ask himself or herself do I really want to poke my nose into this thing. I can understand a few folks riding it out before pulling the pin; hard to fathom how anyone can look at any length of years in being in such an environment. It's kinda funny (to me) when some folks get down into the weeds with upgrades, etc. when the dike is coming apart from around the finger. Yup--upgrade to skipper a bit down the road, work harder, have a worse roster, put in more time, worry about life, and make less (under worse conditions) than a present day senior FO who's currently finishing up his days here.

I think we've seen in the fuel hedging debacle (which IMHO was simply a scam all along--witness the airline magically having enough cash to buy or leverage a new airline) the degree to which the company (IMHO) will make up stuff to push an agenda. True or not. No one knows how money moves across China or around here. If I bill myself for a house my wife and I live in I can make up any number I want to attempt to show my wife how poor I am (she's smart enough not to believe this though).

[Liam Gallagher]

Watching the Company and the AOA is like watching two fat people have sex. It’s unsightly, but amusing trying to figure out which one looks more stupid.Hot on the heels of the DFO's latest blunder, the AOA has played a blinder with just 486 members (20.6% of all members) successfully voting that all future votes require 67% majority to pass. In future, if 1579 vote to do something and just 779 say “no”, then it’s not going to happen. The AOA just adopted democracy by minority rule!!AOA, please just give me my levy back and I’ll leave you all to it. Cathay, just make me redundant and you can replace me with someone on POS18…. everyone’s a winner….A plague on both your houses…….

[Flex88]

EFIS Check
"If any of you think that every random Tom, Dick and Harry may be asked to become a trainer you are likely to also believe in the tooth fairy. "

EXACTLY how it has been for 20 years... I'll counter that if you think the cream rises to the top, you're dead wrong; that only happens in a meritocracy and CX has killed that method of promotion a very long time ago. The dancing buffoon is a great example..

It's just not fair that John/Suzy who joined 3 years ago with 200hrs and have no PIC time can't be trainers...

#CXit while you can

[Avinthenews]

It's just not fair that John/Suzy who joined 3 years ago with 200hrs and have no PIC time can't be trainers...

#CXit while you can

Can't wait for the day when we have Senior second officer trainers

[Hugo Peroni the V]

A letter has been doing the rounds on social media coercing Pilot’s into signing an understanding that their COS allows CX to force them into training by 5th April.

Have many received this letter?

[Roy De Kantzow]

A letter has been doing the rounds on social media coercing Pilot’s into signing an understanding that their COS allows CX to force them into training by 5th April.

Have many received this letter?Wonder how many heroes will be queuing up to sign the letter, citing reasons such as ‘oh I had no choice as my family needs the extra money’, or ‘I signed it because it suited me, and anyway, I don’t mind going into the sim’, or ‘Yeah I signed it because I don’t think it’ll make any difference and I’m scared I’ll lose my command’ etc etc.

[Dilbert68]

The very fact that CX needs people to sign this letter against their own COS shows that it is absolute BS.
If your COS legitimately allowed the Company to force you into Training, there would be no need to sign any 'understanding'.
To all that sign this 'understanding', you will be undermining your own COS and the COS of your colleagues.
The old adage 'sign nothing', rings true now more than ever.

Agree 100% Dan!!! Sign nothing and get legal advice.

[unitedabx]

Agree 100% Dan!!! Sign nothing and get legal advice.

I also heard some pilots may be conscripted into management positions such is the lack of interest.

[stevieboy330]

Nothing with happen & nothing will change, just like the last five years, maybe a "strongly worded letter from the HKAOA", perhaps one from the company too.

[Roy De Kantzow]

Nothing with happen & nothing will change, just like the last five years, maybe a "strongly worded letter from the HKAOA", perhaps one from the company too.

Yes that'll sort them out - the classic strongly worded letter from the AOA. It's exactly the same tactic that has been used the last 18 times, so it'll be the last thing the company will expect this time. That's the genius of the HKAOA.

[groundbum]

if this is a safety related issue contact the hull insurers and point this out to them. They have the ability to raise premiums/refuse cover based on the increased risk. Could get tricky for CX....

G

[The FUB]

A strongly worded letter.

However, in the words of General Melchett, "Ha that's the last thing they'd expect so its what we must do"

[broadband circuit]

I hear that one of the ban breakers who resigned from the AOA to join training, even before people were being "forced", has failed his training upgrade.

Karma is sweet!

Good luck asking for swaps and/or jumpseats. Unless of course you ask "man to man"

[BlunderBus]

As usual it’s left to individuals to take a stand at what amounts to personal risk(as proven countless times in the past)while the rest of you snipe from the sidelines.
And no... I’m not in training.
We are ALL responsible for the outcome here. Nothing will stand up to these guys unless it’s a concerted team effort.

[The FUB]

Which fleet was the upgrade failure on?

[arse]

Nothing will stand up to these guys unless it’s a concerted team effort.

And therein is the problem. We are incapable of a concerted team effort. I am honestly shocked at some of the names I am seeing going into training.

[smogluver]

Useless bottom feeding scabs the lot of them. A few names on that list that I would not give command of a wheelbarrow in a sandpit.

[Oasis]

That's got to hurt... Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.. /s

[exfocx]

Hey Roy,

Just for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rblfKREj50o

[Frogman1484]

There are now just under 100 people on the training list. They have more names than positions required. Let’s face it the training ban is no more. The AOA is like the deer in the headlights. As the guys get their letters, they are resigning from the AOA. The company is now offering an alternative loss of income insurance, which will drive even more people to leave. The TB has now become a liability to the AOA, and they have no idea how to get rid of it as some radical GC members, seam to think it still has some leverage. Just about every guy I’m flying with is thinking about quitting the AOA, as it has become totally irrelevant. The SO”s are now looking at 5 years before an upgrade and they are pleased with the increase in training captains, so are a lot of FO”s who are waiting for a command. There is a reason why the AOA is not returning the levy, as they know a lot of members will quit if they do.

[Gnadenburg]

They've broken the potential training ban at KA.

20% + of KA captains applied for advertised positions that, I'm guessing, will only come about if contract compliance is entered into. Actually, appoint all these applicants and contact compliance is broken too.

No wonder they offered such a brazed MFF / pay rise deal. Sign away seniority, your OT and do double the work for 1%. Thankfully, faith restored and this insult voted down convincingly!

[unitedabx]

They've broken the potential training ban at KA.

20% + of KA captains applied for advertised positions that, I'm guessing, will only come about if contract compliance is entered into. Actually, appoint all these applicants and contact compliance is broken too.

No wonder they offered such a brazed MFF / pay rise deal. Sign away seniority, your OT and do double the work for 1%. Thankfully, faith restored and this insult voted down convincingly!

Surely time to up the game. If TB is being circumvented then apply FULL CC.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

Surely time to up the game. If TB is being circumvented then apply FULL CC.
What more could be doing with CC, we already don't answer the phone or acknowledge notifications. I go to work when Im rostered and don't when Im not

[tiredofstupidity]

Surely time to up the game. If TB is being circumvented then apply FULL CC.

FULL CC. Lol. There is no leverage in CC. Leverage is gone. Yet people seem only concerned with their “precious” levy money and who marked up a PDF document highlighting the fact they were idiots. Any momentum instantly disappeared. Own goal. It’s over. We lost. Time to move beyond.

[unitedabx]

What more could be doing with CC, we already don't answer the phone or acknowledge notifications. I go to work when Im rostered and don't when Im not

During the last CC period the following were in force :

1. Taxy speed not to exceed 10 kts.
2. No directs enroute.
3. CFP fuel and nothing less.
4. All NOTAMS to be read by every pilot in the crew before flight.
5. No Commanders discretion EVER.
6. Tough night down route then call in fatigued.
7. No RETI.
8. Fly one step below opt.
9. Don't accept or request high speed climbs or descents.
10. Jumpseats released ONLY to pilots.
11. Report to briefing at STD minus 90 minutes at HKG not one minute before.
12. On every TPMS click "for manager attention" and force them to actually read all reports.
13. After your sim don't indulge the likes of JW with two hour debriefs. Walk out after the alloted 30 minutes.
14. Email GBS services every week asking for a reference letter. Or use My Letter if you can.
15. Request your full uniform entitlement.
16. Don't indulge the "scabs" on the flightdeck. Checklists only.
17. Officially, no landings to FO's. This forces them into the sim for landing recency and cloggs the system within weeks.

And thats just off the top of my head. Every little helps.

[Farman Biplane]

Unitedbax, you sound very emboldened now that you are retired!

[Backupnav]

During the last CC period the following were in force :

1. Taxy speed not to exceed 10 kts.
2. No directs enroute.
3. CFP fuel and nothing less.
4. All NOTAMS to be read by every pilot in the crew before flight.
5. No Commanders discretion EVER.
6. Tough night down route then call in fatigued.
7. No RETI.
8. Fly one step below opt.
9. Don't accept or request high speed climbs or descents.
10. Jumpseats released ONLY to pilots.
11. Report to briefing at STD minus 90 minutes at HKG not one minute before.
12. On every TPMS click "for manager attention" and force them to actually read all reports.
13. After your sim don't indulge the likes of JW with two hour debriefs. Walk out after the alloted 30 minutes.
14. Email GBS services every week asking for a reference letter. Or use My Letter if you can.
15. Request your full uniform entitlement.
16. Don't indulge the "scabs" on the flightdeck. Checklists only.
17. Officially, no landings to FO's. This forces them into the sim for landing recency and cloggs the system within weeks.

And thats just off the top of my head. Every little helps.

Untitedabx,
You realise most of your fellow pilots are laughing at your list right now? Get real, the company has found ways around CC, and we get no leverage out of it.
Report on time, do your work like a true professional. When fatigued, then call it a day. But your version of CC does no justice to the pilot profession.
We really are our worst enemies.
​​​​​​

[TurningFinalRWY36]

unitedabx most of the things you have listed there have nothing to do CC. That is just sticking it to the company

[tiredofstupidity]

Not only that the list has zero items that bring pressure to bear on the company. They are all easily circumvented with a change in the manuals or only serve to antagonize fellow employees. My favorite is the requesting letters. They could employ 3000 letter writers and still save money by not giving us what we want. All those items might make us feel better, but they don’t do anything to achieve the goal.

The reality is that we have one move left. And it isn’t to change the make-up of the GC or tweak the rules. We all know what it is, but nobody is going to do it.

[unitedabx]

Not only that the list has zero items that bring pressure to bear on the company. They are all easily circumvented with a change in the manuals or only serve to antagonize fellow employees. My favorite is the requesting letters. They could employ 3000 letter writers and still save money by not giving us what we want. All those items might make us feel better, but they don’t do anything to achieve the goal.

The reality is that we have one move left. And it isn’t to change the make-up of the GC or tweak the rules. We all know what it is, but nobody is going to do it.


You can't even say the word "STRIKE".

Oh and 10 of those points listed came directly out of the Delta Airlines union "guidelines for CC" and I think they are treated pretty well these days.

[Steve the Pirate]

During the last CC period the following were in force :

11. Report to briefing at STD minus 90 minutes at HKG not one minute before.



Little wonder CC is having limited effect if you were signing on 20 minutes earlier than required @unitedabx :E

STP

[Flex88]

In reference to all above, the nihilism and apathy among nearly all CX flight crew and in particular the AOA GC is palpable..!!

As you sow, so shall you reap !


#CXit

[Oasis]

Is rather follow that list, then give up like most of you over here. Not a lot of fight in you, oh well... why don’t you step aside, let others carry your burden...

[Hugo Peroni the V]

And by fighting, what are you expecting to achieve? Curious!

Is rather follow that list, then give up like most of you over here. Not a lot of fight in you, oh well... why don’t you step aside, let others carry your burden...

[Oasis]

I hope to achieve the polar opposite of greasing it up and taking it in the rear.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

And how’s that working out? Apart from your brave posts of what a hero you are on an anonymous forum, what have you actually managed to achieve with 4 years of ‘pretending’ to be the man when it comes to contract compliance? I suspect the list of victories is a very short one. (I’ve stoically followed the game plan...just can’t see what keeping on following that plan will do apart from hurt ourselves and let sub-standard volunteers into training).


I hope to achieve the polar opposite of greasing it up and taking it in the rear.

[unitedabx]

And how’s that working out? Apart from your brave posts of what a hero you are on an anonymous forum, what have you actually managed to achieve with 4 years of ‘pretending’ to be the man when it comes to contract compliance? I suspect the list of victories is a very short one. (I’ve stoically followed the game plan...just can’t see what keeping on following that plan will do apart from hurt ourselves and let sub-standard volunteers into training).






So are you just advocating "giving up" ? Unless you have a strategy you will be walked over again and again by the management. Sure you can "rollover" but what does that say about YOU ?

[OK4Wire]

United, I don't think the only 2 options are "giving up" or "staying the course".

In some cases (like this one), "not giving up" means doing the same sh!t over and over for decades thinking it's making a difference to the management. Surely we are smarter than that?! Many, many years of "not giving up" while watching management not only change but actually grow little children into our current managers!

There is a better course, but it involves canceling everything, regrouping and starting again, something that our "cult" or "religious" system will simply not allow.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

Far from it. I’m just saying the plan isn’t working and we are losing and suffering as a result. Einstein once said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result and that is exactly what we are doing.
So are you just advocating "giving up" ? Unless you have a strategy you will be walked over again and again by the management. Sure you can "rollover" but what does that say about YOU ?

[Roy De Kantzow]

OK4Wire and Hugo Peroni the V have this absolutely spot on.

How long can the AOA keep doing the same thing over and over and over and still accept getting regularly shafted by a giant pineapple?

[Oasis]

OK4Wire and Hugo Peroni the V have this absolutely spot on.

How long can the AOA keep doing the same thing over and over and over and still accept getting regularly shafted by a giant pineapple?
got any better ideas?

[Oasis]

Far from it. I’m just saying the plan isn’t working and we are losing and suffering as a result. Einstein once said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result and that is exactly what we are doing.



you know what is insanity?
i just read the aoa negotiations update.
-they are still saying there is no more money
-we can get a pay increase to match inflation, but only if we increase productivity. so in other words, for us to make the same amount of money in real terms, we have to work harder. All the while, pilots are leaving in droves..
And you know your yearly increase does not even come close to inflation....

[oriental flyer]

There are a number of very talented pilots who would make excellent training captains but have not put their names forward out of respect for the TB . Yet sadly there are so many that are perfectly content to screw over their fellow pilots.
The AOA can only achieve any improvements if the pilot group are all prepared to back them yet this lot are undermining their efforts

[Roy De Kantzow]

got any better ideas?

Yes,
Go on strike.

[oriental flyer]

I’m afraid that if you want a career or any improvements to your COS this is your only option

[mngmt mole]

Sadly, due to a few craven individuals with no character or sense of morality (you know who you are....and so do we), the efforts of 3000+ plus pilots has been wasted. I might add that we are talking about an effort now going on 4 years. You have those individuals to thank for wasting your efforts, the sacrifices of your families and the ultimate loss of your leverage and hopes for any improvement to your packages. All so those individuals could squirrel away a few more percent for themselves. The definition of selfish, narcissistic and immoral. Every single one of you.

[cxorcist]

Sadly, due to a few craven individuals with no character or sense of morality (you know who you are....and so do we), the efforts of 3000+ plus pilots has been wasted. I might add that we are talking about an effort now going on 4 years. You have those individuals to thank for wasting your efforts, the sacrifices of your families and the ultimate loss of your leverage and hopes for any improvement to your packages. All so those individuals could squirrel away a few more percent for themselves. The definition of selfish, narcissistic and immoral. Every single one of you.

Amen! There’s no arguing that FACT.

[cxorcist]

4 years....

But. Its. Not. Working.

If that’s true and the consensus, then come up with a better plan, but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water and do your own thing. That is not just selfish and immoral, it’s downright dumb.

[Roy De Kantzow]

If that’s true and the consensus, then come up with a better plan, but don’t throw the baby out with the bath water and do your own thing. That is not just selfish and immoral, it’s downright dumb.


I did, see post 127.

And I can do my own thing - I left CX, which is far more action than many of the chest beaters on here!!

[Air Profit]

Roy, a lot of us here are planning on leaving, but it's not as easy for some as it is for others...so please, don't chest thump. Those that volunteered for training have done a terrible thing to their colleagues, their families and the collective hope for a better future. Just another reason to believe that there really is no career of value left here. It's ironic, but the same greedy, shameless individuals who have thrown their colleagues under the bus have also thrown their own long term best interests under the bus as well. Truly a sad, pathetic airline full of sad pathetic characters. The only real option for those who care about their careers is to leave, and to do so as soon as possible.

[Roy De Kantzow]

Roy, a lot of us here are planning on leaving, but it's not as easy for some as it is for others...so please, don't chest thump. Those that volunteered for training have done a terrible thing to their colleagues, their families and the collective hope for a better future. Just another reason to believe that there really is no career of value left here. It's ironic, but the same greedy, shameless individuals who have thrown their colleagues under the bus have also thrown their own long term best interests under the bus as well. Truly a sad, pathetic airline full of sad pathetic characters. The only real option for those who care about their careers is to leave, and to do so as soon as possible.

The logic of this forum never ceases to amaze.

I leave, as so many on here are encouraged to do (for the sake of clarity I left entirely under my own conscience), and then I get accused of ‘chest thumping’. How does that make any sense? I’m merely stating fact. I have left CX and I do feel that a strike is the ONLY course of action the CX management would understand. Rehashing the same strategy over and over and blindly ‘staying the course’ when ‘the course’ is blatantly not working doesn’t seem to be the smartest course of action. TB and CC have all been circumnavigated, and the industrial strategy needs to change.The pilot body didn’t even blink when COS18 was introduced. It was just accepted as a fait accompli. That shows me there is absolutely zero stomach for any fight, which means you either make your own plans, or accept that the career prospects at CX are over.

[Steve the Pirate]

The logic of this forum never ceases to amaze.



Roy, you should know as well as anyone that 'logic' and 'this forum' are mutually exclusive terms. :E

STP

[Roy De Kantzow]

Ha, my mistake - temporary lapse!

[boxjockey]

I also left. Leaving behind 12 years of a career and all that entails was not easy, but my life is now happier for it. I am sorry for all of my ex-colleagues, as there are many great pilots at CX who do not deserve what they are being dealt. The trajectory of a flying career at CX is now well established, and I hope that all of you who are seeking something better find what you are looking for.

box

[kenfoggo]

For any leader to enact an unpopular policy they need stooges. Theses stooges must be deeply delusional in that they must be made to believe that they are being admitted to some kind of exclusive, elitist inner sanctum and that further enhancements will be attached to their promotion of this unpopular policy. They must be so delusional that they cannot see the damage they are doing to their own standing in the community nor the damage that they do to the best interests of their colleagues. Plus , they must be convinced that doing 30% extra work for 10% extra salary is a wise decision.

There is a school of thought that says that the desire to become a stooge should automatically preclude you from becoming one on the the grounds of poor professional judgement. ( Nobody believes they are “forced” into stoogery, they are all willing volunteers).

[motley flight crue]

Yes. “But I’m a trainer now” is how they look at it.

[cxorcist]

Yes. “But I’m a trainer now” is how they look at it.

“But I’m SCAT now” is how they should look at it. A Training scab, newly minted aptly as scaT, just one rung higher than a full fledged scab.

[Apple Tree Yard]

It's going to be an interesting career going forward for these people. We all know who they are, and we all know what they have done (to everyone of us and our families hopes and futures). At least I know who won't be getting JS's and who not to share a beer with. Reputation: a lifetime to earn, a moment to lose.

[Frogman1484]

There are now just under 100 guys on the training captain list and the list is growing every day. The training ban is dead, it is now causing more problems to us than to them. The reality is that even if we wanted to remove the training ban we will never be able to get rid of it. As it is linked to HKPA and RP, means we will never be able to remove it, as we will never get more than 67% of member to agree on both of these items at the same time. The captains taking up the training positions is only the start, as more people figure out that in the past 6 months the ill conceived motions by a minority of the membership had tangled up the union’s ability to achieve anything, they will start to resign. Most of my contemporaries are waiting to see what happens with the vote in September, they all say that if RF runs and gets voted in as chairman, they will quit the union. The TB is dead and the AOA all of a sudden it totally irrelevant, and we can only blame ourselves for that!

[cxorcist]

There are now just under 100 guys on the training captain list and the list is growing every day. The training ban is dead, it is now causing more problems to us than to them. The reality is that even if we wanted to remove the training ban we will never be able to get rid of it. As it is linked to HKPA and RP, means we will never be able to remove it, as we will never get more than 67% of member to agree on both of these items at the same time. The captains taking up the training positions is only the start, as more people figure out that in the past 6 months the ill conceived motions by a minority of the membership had tangled up the union’s ability to achieve anything, they will start to resign. Most of my contemporaries are waiting to see what happens with the vote in September, they all say that if RF runs and gets voted in as chairman, they will quit the union. The TB is dead and the AOA all of a sudden it totally irrelevant, and we can only blame ourselves for that!

Well, if that isn’t shouting it from the rooftops, I don’t know what is. Well done Froggy!

[Frogman1484]

Well cxorcist, if you haven’t already figured it out your self, then you have your head in the sand.

[cxorcist]

Well cxorcist, if you haven’t already figured it out your self, then you have your head in the sand.

No sand in my sphere. I’m pretty sure you missed my point. It doesn’t matter now, water under the bridge / spilt milk.

[Pickuptruck]

I’m happy to accept the ban worked once but doesn’t work now. I’m just as happy to pretend there is only 4 guys going into training and/or breaking the TB and not the list that’s grown to 60 plus. I’m also happy to pretend there isn’t training captain courses all the way into August.

There guys don’t care, the whole idea that actions like turning your back on them in dispatch will be effective, sadly is rubbish.

We need to vote to end TB/CC. It is in the current climate utterly worthless.

[okm]

, they all say that if RF runs and gets voted in as chairman, they will quit the union. The TB is dead and the AOA all of a sudden it totally irrelevant, and we can only blame ourselves for that!

Why would people quit the AOA if RF got in again as chairman? I think it would be good to have a capable person in as chairman. Not like the previous muppet and temp chap in now.

[Pickuptruck]

About 5 minutes (literally) after the company states they have no plans to extend guys who took bpp and RA55, guess what? An avalanche of junior captains cross the ban and join training in the hope they can get an extension past 55.

Sad if the timing wasn’t so obvious.

[mngmt mole]

Sadly, I don't believe there will be a positive outcome for any pilot depending on CX for a career that will be free of stress, disappointment and ultimately, regret. They will wish they never came to this dysfunctional, dystopian place. The only real choices are to endure a career of the above, or to leave and establish yourselves with an employer back home (as an example, SW 737 Captains make more than CX Captains, and they have a pension, healthcare and are in control over their lives, and that's just one example of many). There is no longer any reason to believe that CX management will wake up one day and realise they "have got it all wrong". In fact, they are now beginning to double down on localising the airline and dissipating the remaining expat benefits. Anyone 45 and under that has other options...you will certainly regret not taking them.

[Steve the Pirate]

The interesting question for me is why would you think that being a pilot should be any different from any other career in these respects?

I might be wrong but I think mole was referring specifically to a pilot's career with CX. However, I do take your point that many careers may well be measured by the degree of stress, disappointment and ultimately, regret that they might bring. I suppose a question might be: does one have the intestinal fortitude to do anything about it other than bemoan one's perceived plight?

STP

[Farman Biplane]

ANy comparison to any other job/profession that doesn’t have recognition of prior experience through the often manipulated and arcane seniority system is completely invalid.