Red Arrows to move from RAF Scampton to one of three sites

[Warmtoast]

According to MOD quoted by BBC News here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47617062

Red Arrows to move from RAF Scampton to one of three sites.
They are RAF Leeming in North Yorkshire, RAF Waddington in Lincolnshire and RAF Wittering in Cambridgeshire

[Wrathmonk]

If Wittering is the chosen home I hope the lawyers are ready for the chap who lives in the big house on the extended centreline. He didn't like the Harriers so don't think he's going to be too happy with the Reds practising several times a day (plus the coloured smoke). Also, wonder how many crashes on the A1 they will cause...? Unless, of course, they are going to continue to rehearse at Scampton.

[isaneng]

Waddo is full.
Wittering, well, why?
Leeming? Ok, same model of Hawk? (Ready to be corrected). Makes sense. Therefore absolutely not.....

Topcliffe?
Thorney?
Little Riss ?

Suggestions on a postcard to...............

[chevvron]

Waddo is full.
Wittering, well, why?
Leeming? Ok, same model of Hawk? (Ready to be corrected). Makes sense. Therefore absolutely not.....

Topcliffe?
Thorney?
Little Riss ?

Suggestions on a postcard to...............
Linton would be ideal; Halton even better, or pinch Abingdon back from the brown jobs; that would make Brize happy.https://www.pprune.org/images/icons/46.gif
Altenatively they're resurfacing Northolt for practically no other military traffic...

[isaneng]

Oooh, didn't think of Halton.
Delay hand-back of some prime estate?

Stop them having to build in flat Lincs......

[Vendee]

If Wittering is the chosen home I hope the lawyers are ready for the chap who lives in the big house on the extended centreline. He didn't like the Harriers so don't think he's going to be too happy with the Reds practising several times a day (plus the coloured smoke). Also, wonder how many crashes on the A1 they will cause...? Unless, of course, they are going to continue to rehearse at Scampton.

If you mean the big house just to the south of Barnack, he also dislikes Google streetview because the entire frontage of his property is all blurred out.

[Bob Viking]

I bet any member of the wider Reds organisation who has bought a house near Scampton is praying for Waddington.

Knowing how the needs of people are always considered a priority I’m sure the powers that be will make the right decision.

Can you sense the sarcasm?

BV

[Wrathmonk]

bought a house near Scampton

Valley or Culdrose it is then!

[handleturning]

Also, wonder how many crashes on the A1 they will cause...?.

same at Leeming.

[Melchett01]

If Wittering is the chosen home I hope the lawyers are ready for the chap who lives in the big house on the extended centreline. He didn't like the Harriers so don't think he's going to be too happy with the Reds practising several times a day (plus the coloured smoke). Also, wonder how many crashes on the A1 they will cause...? Unless, of course, they are going to continue to rehearse at Scampton.

Question is when did he buy said house. Airfields aren’t easy to hide, so if he bought it whilst the airfield was active he’s on a sticky wicket and needs to complain about the standard of survey done by the conveyancer. I was constantly fending off daft complaints whilst holding at Coningsby many moons ago. They quickly shut up when I asked how long have you owned your home, because we’ve been here since 1940. Low flying complaints were always amusing ‘no Madam, I can assure you it wasn’t gratuitous behaviour just to disrupt your party, he was in fact landing at the time you spotted him’.

As for how many crashes on the A1, you could ask the similar question about Leeming or Waddington and the A15. Personally I’d quite like them in Wittering. Between the Reds and BBMF using my house as a waypoint in the past, I could have most of the display season sewn up. But as it stands, and purely because it’s a wholly illogical move, they will no doubt end up at Waddington.

[downsizer]

Also, wonder how many crashes on the A1 they will cause...?

Not vastly different to having 2 Sqns of Harriers there really.

[Innominate]

ISTR that the Air Experience Flight at Wittering couldn't operate at weekends because the Air Traffic Control contract only covered Monday to Friday. Moving the Reds there should solve the ATC issue, but the AEF might not mix well with the Reds...

[Lima Juliet]

Melchy

Sadly for Wittering the precedent is already set!

£1m payout over country house idyll ruined by the scream of Harrier jets

No one should have to endure this, rules judge making order against RAF

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/apr/17/jeevanvasagar

[Lima Juliet]

chevvron

Sadly the boat was missed in 1957 when RAF Halton was due to start its concrete runways - the Sandy’s Report that same year cancelled it. This is what may have been:


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1738x1536/d1bec2de_ca87_4ea5_9d21_f013a0bb6cc4_312455b13d30ab62adf11b0 f8448a556b1bf5265.jpeg

Finally, on Halton a very small handful of locals proper kicked off about the arrival of 2 piston powered glider tugs to operate from the airfield. Which always made me chuckle as 10 years earlier the RAF Engineering Apprentices were conducting engine ground runs on 3x Vulcan bombers flown in for their use - yes, landed they on the grass as well as a Comet airliner!

The last hard military runway to be built in the UK was at RAFC Cranwell that was finished by 1959 for the arrival of the Vampire, Jet Provost and Meteor. Prior to that it was grass which made it a strange choice to operate our first prototype jet the Golster E28/39 during World War 2 from a grass airstrip.

[Tashengurt]

Surely Leeming would make most sense in terms of centralising T1s?

[Treble one]

Wittering and practices over Scampton or Cottesmore?

Waddington has too many ISTAR assets for them to want a load of Reds fans around watching?

Leeming would make sense to consolidate all of the T1 assets and engineering? (Just seen your post Tashengurt. Apologies)

Just some thoughts.

[DCThumb]

As I recall from local airspace user groups a while ago, the airspace above Scampton is a prized asset. I would imagine Durham Tees Valley would not be happy about the establishment of a D313 type area up to 9500’ on their doorstep - Doncaster were already trying to grab a piece of 313 but it has grandfather rights! Wittering would appear to intrude on the Sibson PJE reservation so wouldn’t work, and the Reds complained about the transit time from Cranwell to 313 back in the day....
The (last) plan for Waddington involved a separate enclave on the ‘Vulcan’ side of the airfield, the catch being the need for a separate entrance from the A15 which was going to cost a lot. However, I think the airspace issues might mean that Waddington gets them.....

[Cows getting bigger]

I guess it will be Scampton then. Just like the last 47 iterations of RAFAT rebasing. :rolleyes:

[ivor toolbox]

Brawdy anyone?
Brown jobs moving out... tick
Lots of space.... tick
Sheep as neighbours... tick
Hawks already been there... tick

Ttfn

[Tea White Zero]

How about Kemble????? Couple of hangars at the far side would be about the right size. big parking area - still has the die stains on it:)

[campbeex]

Just to float a couple of Scottish options, how about Leuchars or Kinloss?

I guess certainly the latter could be awkward regarding transit distances to most of the display locations through the season and would there be possible conflict with Lossiemouth?

[tezzer]

Leconfield, get the Pongos out, take up all the traffic lights on the runways, and restore it to it's former glorious use.

[pr00ne]

tezzer,

You’ve obviously not been to Leconfield recently. They havel done a LOT more to the site than just install traffic lights on the runway!
It would probably be cheaper and quicker to build on a brand new a greenfield site.

Oh, and one that doesn’t have a large town right off the end of the runway.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Because they're based at Leeming doesn't mean they to practise over that airfield; the then recently closed LOO might provide an ideal location for a relocated airspace avoid, far enough away from built up areas, the A1, Robin Hood and DTVA while leaving homeplate free for 100 Sqn.

[superplum]

Mildenhall will be coming available with lots of space for all and sundry (and luxurious support facilities at no extra cost).

I guess that's will be a No then!

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Mildenhall will be coming available with lots of space for all and sundry (and luxurious support facilities at no extra cost).

I guess that's will be a No then!
Lakenheath would just LOVE that..........!

[LincsFM]

Well with Sentinel only being on contract till March 2021 there could be a spare hangar at Waddo

[newt]

There is one option not being discussed! Disband the Reds! Saves lots of money and saves the pen pushers having to sort out where they would operate from! SIMPLES.............OK..............It’s a joke!!��

[OldnDaft]

Well with Sentinel only being on contract till March 2021 there could be a spare hangar at Waddo
And RJ moving to Fairford potentially....

[Nige321]

But how long will they be wherever they move?

Assuming they don't go for another couple of years, what's the realistic out of service date for the Hawk T1?

[Jerry Atrick]

The best place for the Reds would be Linton-on-Ouse - remote with plenty of open space around. It's not too late yet...

Leeming has to be worst location as no practices could be achieved using the main runway, which is essential for build-up with newer pilots, as the surrounding area is populated and close to the A1.

Waddo is surely too busy and the A15 will restrict display zones.

Wittering could work if the training area is shifted west towards Collyweston, mitigating impact on A1. Not perfect though.

My call - reactivate Cottesmore, joint base share with army, new hangar & facilities on old TTTE pan. Just the runway lights to put back in. Commutable from Scampton too.

[chevvron]

Just to float a couple of Scottish options, how about Leuchars or Kinloss?

I guess certainly the latter could be awkward regarding transit distances to most of the display locations through the season and would there be possible conflict with Lossiemouth?
Stornoway??

[chopper2004]

The best place for the Reds would be Linton-on-Ouse - remote with plenty of open space around. It's not too late yet...

Leeming has to be worst location as no practices could be achieved using the main runway, which is essential for build-up with newer pilots, as the surrounding area is populated and close to the A1.

Waddo is surely too busy and the A15 will restrict display zones.

Wittering could work if the training area is shifted west towards Collyweston, mitigating impact on A1. Not perfect though.

My call - reactivate Cottesmore, joint base share with army, new hangar & facilities on old TTTE pan. Just the runway lights to put back in. Commutable from Scampton too.

Linton is slated for closure, unless the powers to be have retracted their decision. Believe by 2020/1 timeframe ...it be gone.

Cheers

[chopper2004]

Surely Leeming would make most sense in terms of centralising T1s?

On the surface it would make a lot of sense, but that be too logical 😂

cheers

[Bob Viking]

All this talk of centralising assets. I can see why people think it makes sense but just consider a few things.

The Reds jets are maintained by RAF Engineers. 100 Sqn jets are maintained by civilian contractors.

Having the jets sat on the same airfield doesn’t necessarily mean everyone can start to share tools.

I’m not an engineer and don’t pretend to know much about the trade but some people’s idea of ‘simple’ may need rethinking.

BV

[Just This Once...]

Also worth noting that the last effort to move the Red's airspace reservation fell flat on its face. The 'fix' was to continue to use Scampton despite the team moving to Cranwell, before moving back to Scampton again. With the final disposal of Scampton the current airspace reservation will expire with it. Finding a new location for R313 may be quite a challenge. As it is the Civil Aviation airspace restriction is only reserved for 12 months at a time and is signed into legislation via a Statutory Instrument under the 'public interest' test.

[Mr Bollo]

I recall there was a plan to move RAFAT to Leeming about 10-15 years ago, but it was kiboshed by North Yorkshire Police due to the their perceived risk of major RTAs on the A1(M) as Joe Public slowed to watch the daily "airshow".

[chevvron]

If Wittering is the chosen home I hope the lawyers are ready for the chap who lives in the big house on the extended centreline. He didn't like the Harriers so don't think he's going to be too happy with the Reds practising several times a day (plus the coloured smoke). Also, wonder how many crashes on the A1 they will cause...? Unless, of course, they are going to continue to rehearse at Scampton.
I recall hearing on 'Antiques Roadshow' a few years back that Bunny Campione, one of their experts, lives at Burley House although whether she actually owns it I don't know.

[Vendee]

I recall hearing on 'Antiques Roadshow' a few years back that Bunny Campione, one of their experts, lives at Burley House although whether she actually owns it I don't know.

The house referred to on the Wittering centreline isn't Burghley House. I think Burghley is owned by the Cecil family.

[Tashengurt]

BV seems to make a valid point. No economies there if the Reds Hawks are engineered and have supply chains entirely seperate to Leemings resident units.

[Il Duce]

Linton-On-Ouse! 4 runways to choose from and a new(ish) ATC tower with radar suite (in fact, one of the most modern towers in the RAF). ATC and Fire already established and enough room around the existing MATZ not to trouble too many other airspace users when pushing the top level of the MATZ up to 9500' (then calling it R4¿#). Sorry if that seems like talking sense, I couldn't help myself.

[typerated]

Also worth noting that the last effort to move the Red's airspace reservation fell flat on its face. The 'fix' was to continue to use Scampton despite the team moving to Cranwell, before moving back to Scampton again. With the final disposal of Scampton the current airspace reservation will expire with it. Finding a new location for R313 may be quite a challenge. As it is the Civil Aviation airspace restriction is only reserved for 12 months at a time and is signed into legislation via a Statutory Instrument under the 'public interest' test.

Donna Nook Range is I would imagine the least utilised airspace in the country (planet?).
Never hears aeroplane noise from one day to the next!

Not that far from Waddo

[Bob Viking]

Whilst you were congratulating yourself on your Linton plan did you stop and think about the length of runways at Linton?

6000’ for the ‘long’ runway and 4400’ for the short. Currently no barriers either.

How much do you know about operating a fast jet and the length of runway required?

BV

[Jerry Atrick]

6000’ for the ‘long’ runway and 4400’ for the short. Currently no barriers either.
Same as Kemble then...wasn't a problem in the early 1980s.

[taxydual]

And Linton due to close. OK, keep the airspace above Linton. But you don't have to use the groundspace at Linton. A couple of minutes transit from Leeming.

[pr00ne]

Taxydyal,

The whole thrust of the MoD “better estates” rationalisation, under which Linton is closing, was to free up Govt land for house building.
Not really practical to have Leeming based Reds practising over a new housing development is it?

[Tashengurt]

And Linton due to close. OK, keep the airspace above Linton. But you don't have to use the groundspace at Linton. A couple of minutes transit from Leeming.

Might interfere with Eastenders once they build a housing estate there?

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

The infrastructure around LOO cannot support a huge housing estate without major Infrastructure upgrades; a more likely use for the site would be as a location for a new prison, more's the pity.

[typerated]

https://twitter.com/Derbi595/status/1108051315375161349?s=19
Somewhere you can do this ?

[Finningley Boy]

Linton would be ideal; Halton even better, or pinch Abingdon back from the brown jobs; that would make Brize happy.https://www.pprune.org/images/icons/46.gif
Altenatively they're resurfacing Northolt for practically no other military traffic...

Abingdon would need a lot of work doing if the team were to be based there, for example, a brand new control tower, the last one was demolished about four or five years ago.

Best regards, FB

[chevvron]

Whilst you were congratulating yourself on your Linton plan did you stop and think about the length of runways at Linton?

6000’ for the ‘long’ runway and 4400’ for the short. Currently no barriers either.

How much do you know about operating a fast jet and the length of runway required?

BV




6,000ft ample for Hawks (they used to operate from Kemble; 6,000ft and no barriers); barrier footings still visible at Linton on satellite photos on all runways.

[chevvron]

The infrastructure around LOO cannot support a huge housing estate without major Infrastructure upgrades; a more likely use for the site would be as a location for a new prison, more's the pity.
When MOD close a site, the land has to be offered to other government departments before being offered on the open market and the Home Office are always looking to build new prisons; look at Lindholme, Stradishall, Bovingdon etc.
Mind you, as Linton isn't too far from Catterick, no doubt the brown jobs are eyeing it up.

[MPN11]

https://twitter.com/Derbi595/status/1108051315375161349?s=19
Somewhere you can do this ?Before they invented MSD*, I assume? ;)


* Or whatever it's called these days.

[Finningley Boy]

Taxydyal,

The whole thrust of the MoD “better estates” rationalisation, under which Linton is closing, was to free up Govt land for house building.
Not really practical to have Leeming based Reds practising over a new housing development is it?

Still we're the 5th or 6th largest economy in the whole wide world. We have three, so described, main operating bases left, Belgium have two, so does the Netherlands. I still wonder where all our, used be 4th now apparently 6th and falling, defence expenditure is frittered away? And we still need to sell off as much Government, almost always MOD land, as possible to get by?

FB

[Bob Viking]

OK, lets get into it. Firstly some caveats.

1. I have no idea what the plan for the Reds is and I have no opinion either since it won’t affect me in any way.

2. I should probably have said ‘FJ ops in 2019’.

I cannot see any Duty Holder being overly impressed with Hawk formations operating from a 6000’ runway (Kemble is 6500’ and at that length, that matters) with no barriers and no brake chute in dry weather let alone wet weather (it has been known to rain on occasion in North Yorkshire).

The short runway at Linton is fine as an alternate when (strong) wind permits, again if it had barriers but would not be a duty runway of choice.

So I may have been a little harsh before, based on the fact I assumed the cost of installing four barriers would be quite high, but if the Reds must move, surely an option with a longer runway and existing barriers would be preferable.

BV

[LincsFM]

I think the point is that the MOD isn't going to spend a fortune on a new home for the Reds hence why Wittering, Leeming and Waddington have been shortlisted. If money wasn't a problem Scampton would be staying open.
I do wonder why people mention every RAF base that has been closed in the last 40 years . Wake up and smell the coffee!

[Shaft109]

If Linton and Halton are going to close why not concentrate everything on Scampton? Lots of space for Initial Recruit training, Reds stay, Airspace restrictions don't change, maybe BBMF as a visitors centre too, close to other infrastructure Like Waddington, Cranwell and Coningsby.

[chevvron]

I cannot see any Duty Holder being overly impressed with Hawk formations operating from a 6000’ runway (Kemble is 6500’ and at that length, that matters) with no barriers and no brake chute in dry weather let alone wet weather (it has been known to rain on occasion in North Yorkshire).





Kemble has dislaced thresholds on both ends bringing LDAs well below 6,000ft (5832 on 08 and 5379 on 26) as they were when the RA were based there but then, since when did the RA take any notice of displaced thresholds?

[Green Flash]

A quick perusal of anywhere in North Yorkshire will reveal dozens of disused WW2 airfields, many with very obvious runways still extant. Pick 1/2 doz, a big blob of dayglo (red?) paint on them and you have your ground reference. Yes, you probably can't land in an emergency (well, you probably can) but the Reds display over many non-airfield locations.

[chevvron]

A quick perusal of anywhere in North Yorkshire will reveal dozens of disused WW2 airfields, many with very obvious runways still extant. Pick 1/2 doz, a big blob of dayglo (red?) paint on them and you have your ground reference. Yes, you probably can't land in an emergency (well, you probably can) but the Reds display over many non-airfield locations.
Does that include Topcliffe?

[Bob Viking]

Why exactly has this thread morphed into a ‘name your favourite airfield’ thread?!

There are three options according to the thread title. Surely they warrant more discussion?

They all have long runways and/or stopping aids.

BV

[alfred_the_great]

Culdrose or Yeovilton, obviously.

[reds & greens]

Why exactly has this thread morphed into a ‘name your favourite airfield’ thread?!

BV

No idea, - but if that's the game, I'll add Brüggen

[BEagle]

Leeming - a little further north than ideal, given that most displays are in the south of the UK. But a good long runway and plenty of available space, with only Tatty Ton and the nascent T1 AFS being in residence. Of the 3, the only one which doesn't require departures and arrivals over a major road. Teesside/Durham or whatever it calls itself these days isn't really that close to be a factor, but would be a convenient diversion.

Waddington - rather busy with resident aircraft and visitors, no spare hangarage. The proximity of the A15 and the road traffic issue which that would cause whenever the Team was departing or landing would be rather significant.

Wittering - full of plastic pigs flying UAS and AEF most of the time and much closer to the A1 than Leeming is to the A1M.

Of the 3, Leeming seems the obvious choice. Which no doubt means that Swanton Morley will actually be chosen!

[mymatetcm]

The old RAF Squires Gate sat empty and unused, takeoff over the sea and practise out of the way to the delights of the Blackpool populace. would have stuck the P8 in there also. Blank canvas

[John Knight]

[QUOTE=Melchett01;10423922]

Question is when did he buy said house. Airfields aren’t easy to hide, so if he bought it whilst the airfield was active he’s on a sticky wicket and needs to complain about the standard of survey done by the conveyancer. I was constantly fending off daft complaints whilst holding at Coningsby many moons ago. They quickly shut up when I asked how long have you owned your home, because we’ve been here since 1940. Low flying complaints were always amusing ‘no Madam, I can assure you it wasn’t gratuitous behaviour just to disrupt your party, he was in fact landing at the time you spotted him’.

As for how many crashes on the A1, you could ask the similar question about Leeming or Waddington and the A15. Personally I’d quite like them in Wittering. Between the Reds and BBMF using my house as a waypoint in the past, I could have most of the display season sewn up. But as it stands, and purely because it’s a wholly illogical move, they will no doubt end up at Waddington

Waddington was looked a few years ago as a new home for the Reds. It was rejected because: Operational flying interfered with playtime.
There is no room on 22 to place a barrier in its traditional location. It would over run the road.....
Also I heard the Reds wanted a separate entrance to ‘their’ bit of the real estate so they didn’t have to bother with things like guardrooms etc.

[H Peacock]

Waddington - rather busy with resident aircraft and visitors, no spare hangarage. The proximity of the A15 and the road traffic issue which that would cause whenever the Team was departing or landing would be rather significant.

Ah, good point, the A15 adjacent to Waddington - rather like the, er, A15 adjacent to, er, Scampton! ��

[BEagle]

Ah, good point, the A15 adjacent to Waddington - rather like the, er, A15 adjacent to, er, Scampton! ��

Err, no. :rolleyes: Unlike the, err, A15 next to Waddington, which has traffic lights to stop traffic when aircraft are landing on RW22 due to its proximity to the road, the, err, A15 at Scampton was built sufficiently far from the, err, RW threshold to allow road traffic to continue normally, no matter whether aircraft are landing or, err, not. Same applies to, err, Wittering....:hmm:

[DCThumb]

Beagle, Waddington ‘rather busy’????? When were you last there? Almost all flyable assets deployed - other than the odd flying club movement I have noticed very little change in traffic between runway closed and open!

I accept the earlier point about 313 being renewed annually, however, it is established and the CAA would be hard pressed to deny a renewal. However, going to them to ask for a completely new patch of restricted airspace, 10 miles by 8500’ would be a different story. The Reds will go wherever they can access 313 from I think....

And for those advocating keeping Scampton open, much of the infrastructure is derelict, yet subject of English Heritage preservation orders. We tried moving loads of units in there when it last reopened (C4 hub) but the preservation orders stopped it.

[GeeRam]

However, going to them to ask for a completely new patch of restricted airspace, 10 miles by 8500’ would be a different story.

They have though, proposal application went to CAA in Nov of last year.

https://airspacechange.caa.co.uk/PublicProposalArea?pID=105

[Jerry Atrick]

Good find GeeRam. I can't see how R313 could be applied at Leeming, but maybe Topcliffe?

[DCThumb]

Asked is very different to approved......

[handleturning]

If RAF PR get a vote, and they will, then it will be Wittering. Get rid of that old Harrier and stick 'Home of the Red Arrows' for everyone to see. Would hazard a guess that Wittering would be the pilot choice.

[Il Duce]

I can see Wittering working however, perhaps not as successfully as some other options. Establishing a new R313 directly on top of Wittering would be tight squeeze up against the Sibson para DZ. You could push that airspace a bit further north, over Cottesmore but then you're nudging up against Buckminster Gliding Club at Saltby. On top of that, if there is the desire to continue as is normal at Scampton during practices, you'll need to man Cottesmore's ATC tower and Fire section. Further, whilst Wittering has an ACR currently manned by blue suits who could provide the radar services to RAFAT in the same way that Waddington currently does, when Programme Marshall kicks in, those blue suits and the radar will be relocated at Marham - not convinced Cottesmore (or Wittering) will be in "solid radar cover" in the same way as Scampton is to Waddington.
Yorkshire, IMHO, would appear to be the best bet.

[chevvron]

Yorkshire, IMHO, would appear to be the best bet.
Finningley is hardly ever used; why not buy it back?

[Lima Juliet]

I believe if WIT is used then COT’s runway/overhead would be used for practice.

[jumpseater]

Finningley is hardly ever used; why not buy it back?


PMSL, like the MOD can afford to buy back an international airport for a display team.

[Onceapilot]

I notice some of the discussion includes different basing/practicing locations. Can I offer a thought that it would seem to be important that RAFAT training is conducted in the overhead of an airfield with a suitable Crash Rescue and Fire fighting capability?

OAP

[andrewn]

I believe if WIT is used then COT’s runway/overhead would be used for practice.

This has definitely been the strong rumour for some time, so no surprises there. The inclusion of Waddington and Leeming into the mix is interesting, but I suspect is nothing more than an attempt at making it look like a transparent process is being worked through.

Waddington has been rejected previously and would, you assume, still require the existing R313 - which kind of defeats the object of the exercise if, as suspected, Scampton is to be turned into the latest ToyTown housing estate.

Leeming has the T1 co-basing advantages, but not a lot else going for it, with the A1 proximity making Leeming itself unsuitable for practices and no other obvious candidate aerodromes under MoD control.

We shall see, of course...

[Harley Quinn]

This has definitely been the strong rumour for some time, so no surprises there. The inclusion of Waddington and Leeming into the mix is interesting, but I suspect is nothing more than an attempt at making it look like a transparent process is being worked through.

Waddington has been rejected previously and would, you assume, still require the existing R313 - which kind of defeats the object of the exercise if, as suspected, Scampton is to be turned into the latest ToyTown housing estate.

Leeming has the T1 co-basing advantages, but not a lot else going for it, with the A1 proximity making Leeming itself unsuitable for practices and no other obvious candidate aerodromes under MoD control.

We shall see, of course...

Does Cottesmore or Wiittering have the necessary support services now? ATC, Fire & Rescue, Fuel storage, hangars suitable to house and maintain aircraft, are the operating surfaces up to snuff? Have any new housing estates been built since flying ceased, will it be affected by constant practice sorties. If the answer is we're not sure, then everyone on RAFAT should start practicing understanding that strange Yorkshire accent, because Leeming probably has all that good, practical, expensive stuff already.

[Tashengurt]

Is the presence of the A1 so close to Leeming really such an issue.
Many roads with many distractions all over the UK.
Would the MOD pay for some roadside conifers to prevent gawking?

[motormouser]

Leeming - a little further north than ideal, given that most displays are in the south of the UK. But a good long runway and plenty of available space, with only Tatty Ton and the nascent T1 AFS being in residence. Of the 3, the only one which doesn't require departures and arrivals over a major road. Teesside/Durham or whatever it calls itself these days isn't really that close to be a factor, but would be a convenient diversion.

Waddington - rather busy with resident aircraft and visitors, no spare hangarage. The proximity of the A15 and the road traffic issue which that would cause whenever the Team was departing or landing would be rather significant.

Wittering - full of plastic pigs flying UAS and AEF most of the time and much closer to the A1 than Leeming is to the A1M.

Of the 3, Leeming seems the obvious choice. Which no doubt means that Swanton Morley will actually be chosen!

Ref. Waddington...the A15 will be diverted shortly (year or so) and will no longer run at the end of the runway...just a thought!

[chopper2004]

Does Cottesmore or Wiittering have the necessary support services now? ATC, Fire & Rescue, Fuel storage, hangars suitable to house and maintain aircraft, are the operating surfaces up to snuff? Have any new housing estates been built since flying ceased, will it be affected by constant practice sorties. If the answer is we're not sure, then everyone on RAFAT should start practicing understanding that strange Yorkshire accent, because Leeming probably has all that good, practical, expensive stuff already.

Cottesmore does not as it’s been near a decade since end of Harrier ops, handed over to the army. Not even sure if the runway is in good shape. Wittering has the necessary infrastructure ATC, Fire, etc as it does operate 16 and 6 Sqn plus Cambridge and London UAS

https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/stations/raf-wittering/

On a numerous note, why not start up flight ops lol at Wyton 🎃🤖 ....sure the only thing flying is the MAGPAS MD902 but they’re moving to Alconbury come next year. And hey it was only quarter of a century ago, that 100 Sqn was based there with their Hawk T1s... lol

Cheers

[andrewn]

Cottesmore does not as it’s been near a decade since end of Harrier ops, handed over to the army. Not even sure if the runway is in good shape. Wittering has the necessary infrastructure ATC, Fire, etc as it does operate 16 and 6 Sqn plus Cambridge and London UAS

https://www.raf.mod.uk/our-organisation/stations/raf-wittering/

On a numerous note, why not start up flight ops lol at Wyton 🎃🤖 ....sure the only thing flying is the MAGPAS MD902 but they’re moving to Alconbury come next year. And hey it was only quarter of a century ago, that 100 Sqn was based there with their Hawk T1s... lol

Cheers

I assume the thinking re COT is the runway is still in good (enough) order and that a ATC caravan and fire cover would be provided by WIT. I didn't see Wyton on the shortlist myself, probably because its earmarked to be covered in thousands of houses in the near future. Nice idea though!

[622]

With ATC Gliding going the way it is going......Syerston, and it has a nice new hangar :p

[Sky Sports]

Wittering are holding a public consultation about the move. Are Waddo and Leeming doing the same?

https://www.facebook.com/royalairforcewittering/photos/a.584306591675227/1863358060436734/?type=3&theater

[diginagain]

With ATC Gliding going the way it is going......Syerston, and it has a nice new hangar :p
And, they've moved the main road back a quarter of a mile...

[Echo Romeo]

Should Wittering be chosen what would the likely impact on local private airfields be?There is Spanhoe lying under the Western stub and Shacklewell to the North within the Matz.

[chevvron]

Should Wittering be chosen what would the likely impact on local private airfields be?There is Spanhoe lying under the Western stub and Shacklewell to the North within the Matz.
Parachuting to the south from Sibson too with an advisory 'avoid' area.

[pr00ne]

Echo Romeo and chevvron,

Apart from the fact that Wittering is currently a busy flying training station, so Spanhoe, Shacklewell and Sibson are already being coped with, it used to be even busier with a large Harrier OCU, an operational Harrier squadron and two operational Hunter squadrons, so if it was OK then I guess the addition of an aerobatic team with Cottesmore as their RLG/display overhead should still be OK?

I wonder how they managed when Wittering, Cottesmore and North Luffenham were all operational?

[just another jocky]

Echo Romeo and chevvron,

Apart from the fact that Wittering is currently a busy flying training station, so Spanhoe, Shacklewell and Sibson are already being coped with, it used to be even busier with a large Harrier OCU, an operational Harrier squadron and two operational Hunter squadrons.....

Used to be busier? Nope. Nosier perhaps, but not busier.

[Pure Pursuit]

Mildenhall will be coming available with lots of space for all and sundry (and luxurious support facilities at no extra cost).

I guess that's will be a No then!

The closure of Mildenhall is delayed TFN as there is no pan space for the AAR Wing at any other European USAF base.

[gijoe]

There is a very easy way to solve this - bin them.

There are far more important things - pretty basic things - within the Defence realm that the resources could be allocated to. Remove the tree from the top of the AWS, heating properly working in accommo blocks etc.

Gimping around the world pretending you are promoting British defence sales and industry is laughable.

[chopper2004]

Another suggestion lol :) a return to the days of 100 Sqn including their Flt Lt famous international Rugby player Take back the runway at Wyton, put back ATC, fire section ect ect. One still see the mount for the PAR near the MAGPAS facility. The MAGPAS facility (Specialist Aviation Services provide MD902) will be moving to former RAF Alconbury airfield side now known as Alconbury Weald come 2020 with their (SAS provided) AW169.

Few months AAC Wildcats used the runway for an exercise ...

Ah just realised....tis busy up there...what with being on approach and T/o from the EGUN....plus commercial air traffic ..

Cheers

[chevvron]

The closure of Mildenhall is delayed TFN as there is no pan space for the AAR Wing at any other European USAF base.
Re-open Sculthorpe or Alconbury? Heyford is too far gone.

[GeeRam]

The closure of Mildenhall is delayed TFN as there is no pan space for the AAR Wing at any other European USAF base.

You mean someone didn't actually bother to check before taking the decision to announce the closure........ surely not :rolleyes:

[Pegpilot]

In response to Sky Sports question yesterday, public consultation meetings are indeed planned for the other 2 sites, on the 9th for Leeming and the 10th for Waddington.

[drustsonoferp]

There is a very easy way to solve this - bin them.

There are far more important things - pretty basic things - within the Defence realm that the resources could be allocated to. Remove the tree from the top of the AWS, heating properly working in accommo blocks etc.

Gimping around the world pretending you are promoting British defence sales and industry is laughable.

I don’t think that’s what the MOD study into the matter concluded. The Eastern Hawk endeavour in particular had a significant financial value attributed to it.

[chopper2004]

Re-open Sculthorpe or Alconbury? Heyford is too far gone.

I would love if the MoD took Alconbury Weald and hand it back to the 501st next door......still there is half a runway left , two hangars by it. Beyond that it’s a small village and industrial estate on side with 4/5 large buildings built on the northern side plus all sorts of crap dotted around. How do I know this ? I pop in every so often as one of my clients is on site.

Then again going into the realms of fantasy, what with small village there...can be used as base housing lol.

Scunthorpe is used mainly by the 352nd with their Cv-22B and MC-130J for exercises and stuff , dropping PJs and STS quite regularly with Civil Engineering Squadrons from either the Hall or Heath sends an Oshkosh By Gosh fire truck in support of impending manuevers. Behind that it’s private property , some industrial estate one side. Barracks are run down, dilapidated suppose nothing short of lick of paint, a good interior designer , window cleaner and so forth and so forth to make it habitable again.

Cheers

[Tashengurt]

Re-open Sculthorpe or Alconbury? Heyford is too far gone.
I wondered if Sculthorpe was still active?

[pr00ne]

Tashengurt,

Alconbury is too far gone ever to be an airfield again. Sculthorpe has almost no support facilities. And seeing as the closure of Scampton was part of an MoD estate rationalisation exercise to reduce the defence estate, I doubt if they will be contemplating reopening anywhere! Wyton airfield is scheduled for large scale redevelopment so no chance of that coming back into the fold.

[GeeRam]

Is there still plans to joint base the RAF and USAF Rivet's at Fairford, plenty of space there, and its not near any main arterial roads, and a known display base, and going back home to Glos could be spun nicely in the media?
Proximity to Brize might be an issue though I guess?
I'm sure they will end up at Wittering though.

[pr00ne]

GeeRam,

Was there ever a plan to move 51 Squadron to Fairford? They have a newly refurbished hangar at Waddington and that is the RAF ISTAR home. Fairford is a thinly staffed USAFE deployment base with expenditure planned to build new accommodation and infrastructure to accomodate the USAF RC's that deploy to Mildenhall. No RAF infra or admin there, and again, the whole point of Scampton closing is to reduce the MoD estate and reduce the estate spend, not add more and spend more.

[GeeRam]

GeeRam,

Was there ever a plan to move 51 Squadron to Fairford? They have a newly refurbished hangar at Waddington and that is the RAF ISTAR home. Fairford is a thinly staffed USAFE deployment base with expenditure planned to build new accommodation and infrastructure to accomodate the USAF RC's that deploy to Mildenhall. No RAF infra or admin there, and again, the whole point of Scampton closing is to reduce the MoD estate and reduce the estate spend, not add more and spend more.

I have no idea, thats why I was asking.........just remember someone here posting a link some time ago, of a specialist defense media article about the cost saving implications being looked at of a joint RAF/USAF Rivet base at Fairford once Mildenhall closed. Have no idea whether it was real, speculation or complete guff and what the current situation was :confused:

[Skeleton]

GeeRam,

Was there ever a plan to move 51 Squadron to Fairford? They have a newly refurbished hangar at Waddington and that is the RAF ISTAR home. Fairford is a thinly staffed USAFE deployment base with expenditure planned to build new accommodation and infrastructure to accomodate the USAF RC's that deploy to Mildenhall. No RAF infra or admin there, and again, the whole point of Scampton closing is to reduce the MoD estate and reduce the estate spend, not add more and spend more.

Their have been enough screw ups in the past to prove your theory sadly wrong. Those in power are more than capable of adding more and spending more to close something. I was in a Quarter that had gas central heating installed precisely 6 weeks before it was demolished!

[Martin the Martian]

I think I may have the answer.

B site at Culdrose is undergoing refurbishment and the plan is for 736 NAS to move across to it with their Hawks. Perhaps the Reds could move there instead. B site is on the other side of the airfield from the rest of the flying units and is adjacent to the public viewing enclosure. Furthermore, if the Reds would like a separate entrance, then use could be made of the large entrance next to the public car park, which would allow direct entrance to what could be termed the RAF Culdrose enclave. Practice flights could be held over Predannack (Culdrose's satellite airfield) which, as it is on the Lizard peninsula, is a long way from any civilisation anyway. Of course, fuel costs would increase as long transits would have to be made to anywhere else in the UK to display but, looking at the just published 2019 schedule, the team seems to have an aversion to displaying anywhere north of Cosford anyway.

By the way, only 39 public displays this year, including the North America tour? I guess that is how the team is being affected by squeezing defence expenditure.

[pontifex]

When I was doing the Gnat CFS course the Arrows were using Fairford (so were we!). Why can't they do it again?

[chevvron]

I wondered if Sculthorpe was still active?

https://www.airfieldresearchgroup.org.uk/forum/norfolk-airfields/176-sculthorpe

[OldnDaft]

GeeRam,

Was there ever a plan to move 51 Squadron to Fairford? They have a newly refurbished hangar at Waddington and that is the RAF ISTAR home. Fairford is a thinly staffed USAFE deployment base with expenditure planned to build new accommodation and infrastructure to accomodate the USAF RC's that deploy to Mildenhall. No RAF infra or admin there, and again, the whole point of Scampton closing is to reduce the MoD estate and reduce the estate spend, not add more and spend more.

Not "was" but definitely "is" - the plan is under consideration.

[chevvron]

Do the rocks still occupy Honington?

[Bob Viking]

Unless your answer is either Leeming, Wittering or Waddington then might I suggest you do not actually have the answer!

I don’t think the MOD or indeed the title of the thread ever suggested a new location was going to come from anywhere other than the three shortlisted options.

We all know there are dozens of deactivated airfields across the UK but I seriously doubt anyone in the MOD is looking to reactivate any of them.

Maybe, if we must speculate, it would be better to discuss which of the three actual possibilities are most likely?!

BV

[Martin the Martian]

I was being VERY tongue in cheek. Maybe I should have used some emoticons.

[pr00ne]

OldnDaft,

Says who?

Not according to 51 Squadron or the USAF at Fairford.

[just another jocky]

Unless your answer is either Leeming, Wittering or Waddington then might I suggest you do not actually have the answer!

I don’t think the MOD or indeed the title of the thread ever suggested a new location was going to come from anywhere other than the three shortlisted options.

We all know there are dozens of deactivated airfields across the UK but I seriously doubt anyone in the MOD is looking to reactivate any of them.

Maybe, if we must speculate, it would be better to discuss which of the three actual possibilities are most likely?!

BV


Stop talking sense Bob!

None of the 3 airfields mentioned would suit the current incumbents and the disruption to the local area of wherever they decide to place R313 will be considerable too, except perhaps Leeming where the airspace is less busy than Lincolnshire.

[pr00ne]

just another jockey,

Or Wittering, where R313 could be placed over Cottesmore

[BEagle]

As Cottesmore is south of 53 deg N, the RAFAT Restricted Area would no longer be 'R313' if a decision was made to base the team at Wittering, with a nearby RA.

For various reasons, Leeming seems the obvious choice. Particularly since it has very little other traffic these days.

When I joined the RAF 50 years ago, there were 50 more UK aerodromes available to the RAF (yes, really). Most have now either been squaddified, turned into housing or left to rot. Which means that only Leeming, Waddington or Wittering are the available options...

I looked at Wittering on Google Maps today, using the 'satellite' option. What a shame to see that the only aircraft sitting on the ASP were the UAS/AEFs' plastic pigs......:(

[Onceapilot]

Or Wittering, where R313 could be placed over Cottesmore

Like I said, it would seem unlikely that a location without Crash Rescue and Fire fighting capability at the primary training location would satisfy a modern risk assessment! :ooh:

OAP

[Vendee]

Do the rocks still occupy Honington?

They do. I've been told the runway isn't in great shape and I know that the approach lighting has been pulled up.

[just another jocky]

As Cottesmore is south of 53 deg N, the RAFAT Restricted Area would no longer be 'R313' if a decision was made to base the team at Wittering, with a nearby RA.

I looked at Wittering on Google Maps today, using the 'satellite' option. What a shame to see that the only aircraft sitting on the ASP were the UAS/AEFs' plastic pigs......:(

I know you weren't trying to offend but I do find that comment a little more than annoying.

I spend my life flying those "plastic pigs" and many, many students who will form the backbone of tomorrow's RAF will have many happy memories of those same "plastic pigs". So just because they don't fulfil your definition of a great aeroplane to fly doesn't give you the right to be so disdainful. Perhaps you could choose your words a little more carefully next time.

Oh, and btw, the UAS and AEF are the lesser part of the flying that occurs at Wittering. Please can some of you drag yourselves kicking and screaming into today's RAF?

[just another jocky]

just another jockey,

Or Wittering, where R313 could be placed over Cottesmore

Like I said: "...and the disruption to the local area of wherever they decide to place R313 will be considerable too, except perhaps Leeming where the airspace is less busy than Lincolnshire".

Placing a new R313 over Cottesmore would take out a huge proportion of the flying area currently used by a large number of both Tutors and Prefects.

[typerated]

https://airspacechange.caa.co.uk/PublicProposalArea?pID=105

Is this some form of pinning the tail on the donkey game?

[BEagle]

ACPs are much more rigorously treated these days. The RAFAT ACP is only at stage 1b, so it will be a while before the next stage in the consultation is reached.

MoD has yet to decide its intended basing for RAFAT; the ACP is generic at present but will become more specific once the future base for the Team has been decided.

Unfortunately most of Scampton has been allowed to rot away and many of the MQs have been flogged off. It would take a lot of money to restore the station to the state it was when I did my A2 there in 1992.

[Motleycallsign]

Is there not a covenant the MOD will have to return the A15 back to it's original line if Scampton were to be closed. It was diverted a fair distance to accomodate the runway I believe.

[harrogate]

It's Leeming. I can guarantee it 🤫

[Reader not a writer]

Interesting thread

Any modern risk assessment will rule out a location close to a major road in these times of culpability. Got a gut feeling the Reds might end up in North Wales.

RNAW

[dead_pan]

Any modern risk assessment will rule out a location close to a major road

They don't have to display over the base though (or do they?)

I'm campaigning for them to move to Brize FWIW - acres of practice area to the south, close to their spiritual home at Rissington, only a short hop to RIAT, and there must be a spare hangar for them to tuck themselves into amongst the heavies. So many wins.

[chopper2004]

Interesting thread

Any modern risk assessment will rule out a location close to a major road in these times of culpability. Got a gut feeling the Reds might end up in North Wales.

RNAW

Hmmm

Valley too busy a pan with students plus suspect there is no infrastructure/ tooling etc to support legacy Reds T.1 As it’s all T2 world up there.

Cheers

[BEagle]

The 3 choices have already been announced, assuming that Scampton cannot be saved...

They are Leeming, Waddington or Wittering.

To my mind, the only one which makes sense (apart from restoring Scampton) is Leeming.

[Onceapilot]

To my mind, the only one which makes sense (apart from restoring Scampton) is Leeming.

If Leeming makes sense.....It won't be Leeming! ;)

OAP

[Green Flash]

Base at Leeming and you can bring Topcliffe into play. Only 8 miles away, MOD owned, no large roads nearby, working runways, pre-position a crash truck, med cent, tower, an RLG if you like. Nah, too obvious.

[Tankertrashnav]

Meanwhile they are at Tanagra in Greece for their annual Exercise Spring Hawk. My son who is currently working in a nearby shipyard told me he was chatting with "some RAF pilots" in a bar a few days ago, but had no idea who they were. Now this morning he tells me they have been treated to a mini-display right over the yard, which is at Vathi not too far away from Tanagra. Coincidence, I am sure!

[Finningley Boy]

Base at Leeming and you can bring Topcliffe into play. Only 8 miles away, MOD owned, no large roads nearby, working runways, pre-position a crash truck, med cent, tower, an RLG if you like. Nah, too obvious.


How about Leuchars? and why not in this United Kingdom! Further more the locals would welcome the return of active FJ flying with open Blue Woad painted arms.

FB

PS Only trouble is, the Army would make the chaps march everywhere and salute and stuff. "Sergeant" 'Yes Sah' "I want you to give these air force chaps three hours of close quarter drill, time they learnt their left from the right, blarsted RAF!" 'Yes Sah right away Sah!'

[Tankertrashnav]

Quite right too! ;)

[Davef68]

How about Leuchars? and why not in this United Kingdom! Further more the locals would welcome the return of active FJ flying with open Blue Woad painted arms.


Whilst my response as a local would be 'Yes please!' I suspect the transit distance to the majority of their display locations would rule it out.

[Finningley Boy]

Whilst my response as a local would be 'Yes please!' I suspect the transit distance to the majority of their display locations would rule it out.

East Fortune, Troon, Port Rush they'd be well within reach!

FB

[Lima Juliet]

Akrotiri? :ok:

[BEagle]

For those who STILL don't understand, the 3 potential basing options have already been announced; they are either Leeming, Waddington or Wittering....

[andrewn]

For those who STILL don't understand, the 3 potential basing options have already been announced; they are either Leeming, Waddington or Wittering....

So Tern Hill is out then?

[mopardave]

It's Leeming. I can guarantee it 🤫

Indeed it is....I saw a Red Arrows logo'd Land Rover pull in there the other day! ;)

[1.3VStall]

Small Cog - there is no flying infrastucture left at Honington, apart from a derelict control tower. All the runway lighting and ATC equipment has been ripped out and only the middle 3,000' of runway is useable. Oh, and the large ASP, which was originally built for the TSR2(!) has been built on.

[Roadster280]

PS Only trouble is, the Army would make the chaps march everywhere and salute and stuff. "Sergeant" 'Yes Sah' "I want you to give these air force chaps three hours of close quarter drill, time they learnt their left from the right, blarsted RAF!" 'Yes Sah right away Sah!'

... and how is this a bad thing? :O

[Asturias56]

should be Port & Starboard................

[Onceapilot]

should be Port & Starboard................
Not since 1985-ish. :rolleyes:

OAP

[rockape2k7]

I've heard from a reliable source that they will move to @RAF_Luton. And will take over half of the Millennium Falcon fighter's hangar. They are just going to budge the MF up the expansive hangar a little. SS Enterprise operations will remain @RAF_Luton also.

[squawking 7700]

Heard last Friday that there's a real possibility of them staying at Scampton.

[typerated]

Are they not changing role to become as FTS as part of a damage limitation plan to reduce the training backlog?

[pr00ne]

squawking 7700,

I do hope that there is some substance to that.

After all, it can't cost that much to keep the minimal presence at Scampton going, can it?

[squawking 7700]

pr00ne,
My 'substance' for that info comes from supplying equipment to a couple of contractors that work on essential infrastucture at Scampton, Waddington, Cranwell, Coningsby, Leeming, Marham and a few others, I'd like to think they've got some insight on future requirements.


7700

[Timelord]

More likely MOD has just forgotten to tell their contractors that they decided to close Scampton I’m afraid. In fact they have probably just placed a ten year maintenance contract that will cost more to terminate than it would have done to keep the airfield open.

[Harley Quinn]

squawking 7700,

I do hope that there is some substance to that.

After all, it can't cost that much to keep the minimal presence at Scampton going, can it?

Really?

I do hope you're being sarcastic. The cost of maintaining 70 year old infrastructure for a single flying unit is eye-watering. Close the airfield, retain necessary infra for the other occupants (mobile met unit?) and move RAFAT to Yorkshire today.

[Green Flash]

The MMU have had a rather peripatetic existence (Brize, Benson and now Scampton, amongst others). Indeed, as ERAS are based at Leeming they might find a natural home up there too, maybe?

[chevvron]

How about Leuchars? and why not in this United Kingdom! Further more the locals would welcome the return of active FJ flying with open Blue Woad painted arms.

FB

PS Only trouble is, the Army would make the chaps march everywhere and salute and stuff. "Sergeant" 'Yes Sah' "I want you to give these air force chaps three hours of close quarter drill, time they learnt their left from the right, blarsted RAF!" 'Yes Sah right away Sah!'
Probably the same if they moved to Brawdy.

[pr00ne]

Harley Quinn,

It is a single flying unit but one of three units on the station AND there is a commercial flying outfit in Hawker Aviation, who must be paying a commercial rent for their premises plus contributing to airfield operating costs. There is hardly a surplus of military airfields left in the area.
The cost of reproviding that 70 year old infrastructure elsewhere AND an airfield operating facility dedicated to the team must also be eye watering.


chevvron,

The army are vacating Brawdy and the site is up for disposal. And after 2021 Leuchars will most probably be in a foreign country.

[Harley Quinn]

Harley Quinn,

It is a single flying unit but one of three units on the station AND there is a commercial flying outfit in Hawker Aviation, who must be paying a commercial rent for their premises plus contributing to airfield operating costs. There is hardly a surplus of military airfields left in the area.
The cost of reproviding that 70 year old infrastructure elsewhere AND an airfield operating facility dedicated to the team must also be eye watering. .
Leeming has the infrastructure already, capital costs are sunk, Hawk mk1 support facilities etc. are in place. I would almost guarantee that anything Hawker Aviation paid for use of the facilities went into government general coffers, not defence so no real benefit there. Consolidation would surely be the prudent thing to do.

[langleybaston]

The MMU have had a rather peripatetic existence (Brize, Benson and now Scampton, amongst others). Indeed, as ERAS are based at Leeming they might find a natural home up there too, maybe?

Surely the MMU HQ, such as it is, is an office for the CO, the Adj, and a tech leader, plus a storage Portakabin?

Unless things have changed a great deal "since my day" all the other staff are either on Ops /Exs or working on other RAF stations awaiting the call to arms.

[andrewn]

Leeming has the infrastructure already, capital costs are sunk, Hawk mk1 support facilities etc. are in place. I would almost guarantee that anything Hawker Aviation paid for use of the facilities went into government general coffers, not defence so no real benefit there. Consolidation would surely be the prudent thing to do.

Highly unusually I find myself agreeing with Pr00ne on something!

HQ - you can only consolidate so much - how many decent sized active mil airfields do you think we have left? Scampton is almost uniquely suited to the needs of RAFAT and all this latest rebasing proposal is doing is proving that case. As for Leeming, where would they practice? Leeming has a busy Hawk squadron based, that is about to get busier, not sure the 3 slots per day for 40mins that RAFAT require would work to well? Plus you've got he A1 right next door. So you could use Linton overhead as that is closing (another shortsighted decision) but what's the point in closing one station to keep another, less suitable one, open? Anyway the beancounters will be looking to flog Linton to property speculators at the earliest opportunity.

Whichever way you look at this the only right answer for RAFAT remains Scampton. What should happen is we (our hapless Govt) take some pride in the old place, spend a good dollop of cash on it and make proper use of it. Moving the BBMF from Coningsby to Scampton would be a good start,so freeing up space for the extra Typhoon squadron(s).

[pr00ne]

Harley Quinn,

So, Leeming has an empty C -Type hangar does it? All fully equipped to modern Health and Safety standards and fully equipped to accommodate and service 13 Hawk T1's? And with the added office and admin space for the Team, and accommodation on station for the 100+ folk of the Team? And the airfield is capable of being shut to other traffic 3 to 4 times a day every day for an hour at a time and has sufficient Air Traffic, Fire and Ops staff to open at weekends and Bank Holidays in the display season?
There is a reason that the RAFAT have historically had an active airfield all to them selves.

[Megaton]

Before first 9 ships are flown RAFAT usually utilitise 6 slots per day. Once they’re into 9 ships drops to 3 slots. Moving to another active airfield is a folly that’s failed before.

[chevvron]

Harley Quinn,

So, Leeming has an empty C -Type hangar does it? All fully equipped to modern Health and Safety standards and fully equipped to accommodate and service 13 Hawk T1's? And with the added office and admin space for the Team, and accommodation on station for the 100+ folk of the Team? And the airfield is capable of being shut to other traffic 3 to 4 times a day every day for an hour at a time and has sufficient Air Traffic, Fire and Ops staff to open at weekends and Bank Holidays in the display season?
There is a reason that the RAFAT have historically had an active airfield all to them selves.
I understand that, unless there's a display on a bank holiday monday, RAFAT have mondays and tuesdays as days off.

[campbeex]

And after 2021 Leuchars will most probably be in a foreign country.

The term "foreign" is something of a relative term. I'm sure we could always rent out the airfield to you if you're stuck.

[pr00ne]

The term "foreign" is something of a relative term. I'm sure we could always rent out the airfield to you if you're stuck.

Nope, independence is independence, you will be a foreign country with all that implies. Whilst I am sure that there will be a CTA like we have with Ireland, Ireland is still a foreign country and an independent Scotland will be just that. You will have to loook elsewhere for revenue for the many airfields you will have but not need.

[Finningley Boy]

Nope, independence is independence, you will be a foreign country with all that implies. Whilst I am sure that there will be a CTA like we have with Ireland, Ireland is still a foreign country and an independent Scotland will be just that. You will have to loook elsewhere for revenue for the many airfields you will have but not need.

Scotland won't be an independent country, not for long anyway, not if the future plans that Geeeverhofstadt is constantly referring to come to fruition after we either leave or stay in. The EU plan will eventually involve centralized taxation in Brussels, single standing military forces and whatever else to complete the exercise. Ask yourself tis question about Scottish independence, if membership of the EU was such an imperative and leaving the UK in 2014 (as now) would mean leaving the EU, why did the SNP press ahead with the risk of being chucked out of the EU initially?

FB

[DucatiST4]

Why not base them at Akrotiri during the winter then during the display season let them stay at the various airfield still remaining around the UK based on where their next display is?

[campbeex]

Nope, independence is independence, you will be a foreign country with all that implies. Whilst I am sure that there will be a CTA like we have with Ireland, Ireland is still a foreign country and an independent Scotland will be just that. You will have to loook elsewhere for revenue for the many airfields you will have but not need.

Nope, England would be a foreign country. Depends on one's perspective, doesn't it?

Anyway, I feel that's probably enough thread drift.

[SirToppamHat]

Why not base them at Akrotiri during the winter then during the display season let them stay at the various airfield still remaining around the UK based on where their next display is?
Because even in the display season they regularly fly practice displays which require the airfield to be sterile and the airspace above it sanitised. The BIG issue here is the airspace. R313 (ISTR 5nm from the centre of the Scampton runway and up to 9,500 feet above mean sea level); it is not within the MOD's gift to just move it around the UK and even if the CAA has agreed to consider a request to move it, it will take years to get a decision and require a lot of consultation.

[Harley Quinn]

Harley Quinn,

So, Leeming has an empty C -Type hangar does it? All fully equipped to modern Health and Safety standards and fully equipped to accommodate and service 13 Hawk T1's? And with the added office and admin space for the Team, and accommodation on station for the 100+ folk of the Team? And the airfield is capable of being shut to other traffic 3 to 4 times a day every day for an hour at a time and has sufficient Air Traffic, Fire and Ops staff to open at weekends and Bank Holidays in the display season?
There is a reason that the RAFAT have historically had an active airfield all to them selves.


Dunno about the latest H&S standard, I'd guess the RTP hangars and offices are in reasonably good nick and will be, if not already, available. Leeming always seems to have plenty of accommodation. Upping the establishment of Leeming a bit or establish a whole new unit with all its support staff requirements? I don't necessarily agree that 'because that's the way we've always done it' is much of an argument.
Of course we could just outsource to Breitling.

[andrewn]

Dunno about the latest H&S standard, I'd guess the RTP hangars and offices are in reasonably good nick and will be, if not already, available. Leeming always seems to have plenty of accommodation. Upping the establishment of Leeming a bit or establish a whole new unit with all its support staff requirements? I don't necessarily agree that 'because that's the way we've always done it' is much of an argument.
Of course we could just outsource to Breitling.

Not forgetting the frequent visits from local WI, cubs, guides, STEM, the local and national news media? Co-locating the Reds with other busy flying units has been tried before and failed, miserably, for a variety of reasons. Just because the Government has changed many times since and the Defence Chiefs have forgotten how bad an idea it is (or just dont care), it doesnt make it any better an idea!

Agree with your last point - if we cant do it properly, why bother doing it at all...

[Willard Whyte]

Of course we could just outsource to Breitling.

I wasn't concentrating on first read through, and thought it said "Of course we could just outsource to Beijing."

The way things are going that might be on the cards...

[spekesoftly]

Yep, sponsored by Huawei and renamed 'Hwed Harrows' .....