Rail Link - Melbourne Airport.

[Sunfish]

Is it just me or have politics and greed combined to knobble the provision of fast convenient rail access to YMML?

The politics: the route is a huge dogleg from the airport through Sunshine station - the (labor voting) crime capital of Victoria, then by regional lines to the central city.

The greed: Folks, this is going to be a slow, infrequent service bedeviled by crime and unnecessary suburban rail stops. This is nothing like the frequent express services of Europe. And the cost! $10billion! And the time - 9 years to build starting in 2022!

Thus there is not going to be any cheap, viable, convenient alternative to the greedy airport and it’s carparks for at least another 13 years!

[CurtainTwitcher]

Is it just me or have politics and greed combined to knobble the provision of fast convenient rail access to YMML?

The politics: the route is a huge dogleg from the airport through Sunshine station - the (labor voting) crime capital of Victoria, then by regional lines to the central city.

The greed: Folks, this is going to be a slow, infrequent service bedeviled by crime and unnecessary suburban rail stops. This is nothing like the frequent express services of Europe. And the cost! $10billion! And the time - 9 years to build starting in 2022!

Thus there is not going to be any cheap, viable, convenient alternative to the greedy airport and it’s carparks for at least another 13 years!
Got to protect the Taxi Uber industry too.
Is it true there is a completed station under the international terminal already that has been sitting idle for all these years?

[Thumb War]

Sounds just like the rail link in Paris - that’s in Europe isn’t it?

[mickjoebill]

Sco Mo said the trains could/would use the new metro tunnel! So screwing the capacity of that tunnel.

My route, favoured by a local polli was to run the line due west to the Calder Park raceway then South to Southern Cross.
(this is the massive area of land under the high voltage power lines)

Plenty of space for a station next to Calder Park, providing
1/ Park and ride to those on Calder or heading from the West in the ring road
2/ interchange to regional and urban rail lines
3/ This provides an alternative route and so decentralises transport routes, which is a strategically savvy long term plan.
4/ Potential redevelopment of Calder Park raceway for a F1 venue(currently Victoria paying $50M a year to host F1)
5/ Budget hotel
6/ Train Shuttle from park and ride to terminals reduces traffic congestion around terminals.

The issue is that Melbourne Airport would gag at the potential loss of parking fees, due to a park and ride that is off-airport.

[Berealgetreal]

Nightmare of a place to live and work out of. Choked with traffic, crime and socialist propaganda at every turn. A million people have turned up in the last 5 years and no change to infrastructure whatsoever. Half the time you’re stuck behind a tram if you think you'll be clever and try to to avoid the tolls. Worse thing is the landslide victory in the elections basically saying “we love this give us more”. How can a city this big not have a high speed train city to the airport in 2019, honestly. The current trains are broken half the time anyway. In the city you wonder when the next extremist is going to have a crack at getting front page news while the police run around in circles trying to catch them meanwhile locals chime in with trolleys and other "deterrents". Its a dead set circus.

At the airport the ATIS changes 3-5 times from setup to pushback and just about every 3rd pushback involves a runway change. On arrival it’s ARBEY, LIZZI and WAREN times over and over no matter what time of day or night. Runway and taxiway works that have been going for at least a decade. After 4 long sectors, 12 hours on the clocks you’re at max weight onto a wet Runway 27 quartering gusty crosswind tailwind. Meanwhile the carpark clears a million bucks a day while the airlines scratch their heads on where to find more revenue. Over in the that backwater Brisbane they've had an airport train for more than a decade and shortly two big parallel runways.

Seriously, the coffee and food just isn’t that good but if you’ve been outside of Australia.

Please flame me I want to hear "if you don't like it leave" as its quite original and well thought out. Was a great city, its been left behind and taken off on a tangent in the last 10 years particularly the last 5. Via Sunshine? Awesome, a few ICE fuelled bashings to get the kiddies up to speed sound like a great idea.


If you've been away this is todays Melbourne https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-07/female-traffic-light-signals-melbourne-pedestrian-crossing/8330560

[Half Baked]

Yep!

I left ML10 years ago and was sad to say goodbye. Now I can't wait to get out of the place when I visit. Having said that, Macedon Ranges are still gorgeous.

Unfortunately though it's not just Melbourne. It's now everywhere.........

The leftist loonies, tree huggers and PC brigade have dug themselves in like Alabama ticks. The countries nearly f**ked and will be completely after the next general election.


Very sad state of affairs!

[LostWanderer]

Got to protect the Taxi Uber industry too.
Is it true there is a completed station under the international terminal already that has been sitting idle for all these years?

Ah yes, I have heard that one over the years...perhaps it links up to the secret alien base under Denver airport.
But in all seriousness, I understand there is really a tunnel already under Southern Cross which is ready for the the airport link when they start work on it...that said, never let the truth get in the way of a good rumour.

[601]

$10billion! And the time - 9 years to build starting in 2022

That would be the cost and time frame from a tunnel from the Airport direct to Flinders St.
Crossrail (http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/maps/tube-map)

[Global Aviator]

Someone mentioned Paris, that rail link is a public not always express but it works and is direct.

Dedicated rail links ideal.

There are so many airports around the world with great public transport options - Australia erm?

Havent been to Melb for a while but last time the road works, sheeet I thought that was for a train up the middle.

Can someone not just contract the Wagners?

[vee1-rotate]

And the cost! $10billion! And the time - 9 years to build starting in 2022!

Well duh, of course. The construction unions in Australia need job security so they'll string something out from how long it should take (a few years) to how long they want their workers to be making a salary that is in excess of a captain on a narrowbody aircraft. Talk about a backwards country. I live in the US now and the project speeds over here are incredible. They've built a whole new freeway structure in the city I live, including overpasses, new roads etc etc in a little over a year.

[Derfred]

I don’t know why people get so excited about a rail link.

Sydney did it, but only with an Olympics looming, and they made it cost so much it’s cheaper to get a cab into the city with more than 1 person.

It’s not an express, it doesn’t take you anywhere fast.

The Melbourne one will be the same. In fact, I think I heard Skybus (it’s main competition) will be one of it’s major shareholders. So I’m guessing it won’t be price competitive with the existing options.

Don’t for one minute think you’ll be getting a cheaper or quicker route to the airport... Ten Billion dollars later...

[clark y]

This is all part of the outer rail circle which will be built in time for my children's children's retirement. Should just build it to Broadmeadows. Same social issues but should be able to be done a lot quicker and already part of the outer rail circle grand plan as far as I'm aware.

What will be first- a train from Melbourne airport or Badgery's creek opening?

[ExtraShot]

Nightmare of a place to live and work out of. Choked with traffic, crime and socialist propaganda at every turn. A million people have turned up in the last 5 years and no change to infrastructure whatsoever. Half the time you’re stuck behind a tram if you think you'll be clever and try to to avoid the tolls. Worse thing is the landslide victory in the elections basically saying “we love this give us more”. How can a city this big not have a high speed train city to the airport in 2019, honestly. The current trains are broken half the time anyway. In the city you wonder when the next extremist is going to have a crack at getting front page news while the police run around in circles trying to catch them meanwhile locals chime in with trolleys and other "deterrents". Its a dead set circus.

At the airport the ATIS changes 3-5 times from setup to pushback and just about every 3rd pushback involves a runway change. On arrival it’s ARBEY, LIZZI and WAREN times over and over no matter what time of day or night. Runway and taxiway works that have been going for at least a decade. After 4 long sectors, 12 hours on the clocks you’re at max weight onto a wet Runway 27 quartering gusty crosswind tailwind. Meanwhile the carpark clears a million bucks a day while the airlines scratch their heads on where to find more revenue. Over in the that backwater Brisbane they've had an airport train for more than a decade and shortly two big parallel runways.

Seriously, the coffee and food just isn’t that good but if you’ve been outside of Australia.

Please flame me I want to hear "if you don't like it leave" as its quite original and well thought out. Was a great city, its been left behind and taken off on a tangent in the last 10 years particularly the last 5. Via Sunshine? Awesome, a few ICE fuelled bashings to get the kiddies up to speed sound like a great idea.


If you've been away this is todays Melbourne https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-07/female-traffic-light-signals-melbourne-pedestrian-crossing/8330560


This! A million times this. :D I’m lost as to why people choose to live there, but I guess some are just suckers for punishment.

[Dark Knight]

The Alice Springs - Darwin railway construction project took approximately 18 months to complete 1,420km of track (including up to 2km of track per day) at a total cost of approximately $1.2 Billion completed in 17 September 2003. (approx. 846,000/km

`In one day, on April 28, 1869, these men, fired with the enthusiasm of the greatest railroad construction race in the history of the world, laid ten miles and fifty-six feet of track in a little less than twelve hours to bring the rail head of the Central Pacific three and one-half miles from Promontory, Utah, USA using steam driven cranes and shovels by a small squad of Irish workmen and Chinese Coolies.' A record unbroken to this day.
(I will wash my mouth out later)

The proposed ambitious project will cost an estimated $8-$13 billion and the time - 9 years to build starting in 2022 to be completed 2031: This to build approximately 27 kms of track, infrastructure & stations!

No wonder the country is rooted as Hanrahan would say; Rooted I tell yers Mate! Rooted!

[SOPS]

Female traffic lights??? Really??? Isn’t there better things to do for Melbourne, like cracking down on the crime gangs, for instance?

[Rated De]

The proposed ambitious project will cost an estimated $8-$13 billion and the time - 9 years to build starting in 2022 to be completed 2031: This to build approximately 27 kms of track, infrastructure & stations!

Endless immigration and declining infrastructure spend is gridlock.
Outside the home market myopia Australia is now the white trash of Asia LKY warned of, with the third world infrastructure to match. Only problem is the trash is mixed now as Melbourne and Sydney added a million people, improving 'vibrancy'
Stuck in endless traffic gridlock, inhaling toxic fumes or stuck on a train inhaling unwashed toxic armpit fumes, the commuters can at least enjoy the glow of flammable cladding lighting their way, while toll roads circle the city, on their ever lengthening commute.

Sounds like an episode of the brilliant ABC series "Utopia" oh wait...

[Buster Hyman]

There is no Station under Tullamarine. Plenty of service tunnels but that's it. There is also no tunnel under SXS aside from the old pedestrian access tunnels.

The best idea I heard was a Maglev or Monorail...yes, just like Shelbyville...into the old DFO at SXS.

[777Nine]

Australia is fast becoming a mediocre country. There is no logic to anything and people in charge making the laws and what not constantly take us futther backwards. Australia unfortunately is a backwater, and we can't seem make basic decisions or do anything with foresight because someone gets upset, and then everything is stonewalled.

Everyone having a go at Melbourne, just remember that Sydney is an 'international' city but doesn't have a 24hr airport and you can't get a drink after 10pm because everything is closed.

What is it with this country..

[pilotchute]

The price and frequency of Skybus to Melbourne Airport makes an airport train station unfeasible.
I cant find a train service to any airport (that has a dedicated station) in a western country for less than $18 Aussie. Which funnily enough is about the cost of skybus.
The rise of Uber etc has made an airport train station even less attractive.

[morno]

Sure Australia has its problems, but have any of you guys actually ever lived in a third world country?

Might stop your whinging if you did. I enjoy nothing more than stepping onto Australian soil after months in the real third world.

Buildings that are not falling down, clean air that doesn’t have a hazardous rating for 10 months of the year, rules and standards that don’t see you and your family risking life and limb whenever they step outside..... you know, just the small things that you take for granted :rolleyes:

[601]

I cant find a train service to any airport (that has a dedicated station) in a western country for less than $18 Aussie

Brisbane is close at A$19.00

[gordonfvckingramsay]

So we’re asspiring to be only just better than a third world country Morno? If you believe all the bull$hit from pollies, Australia is the greatest country on Earth and it simply isn’t, we’ve rested on our laurels and it shows.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

All the Australia bashing on here is laughable. Please tell me in the age of Brexit and Donald trump which country is doing things so much better? As the old saying goes, if you don’t like it, leave!

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Maybe you’re too young to have witnessed the steep decline in this country. We used to be a can do nation with unashamed aspirations and now we’re frozen stiff by short term politics and PC crap. Ask any old timer when was the last time Australia did anything really great and they’ll reply “the snowy hydro”, a great achievement by any measure.....almost half a century ago! Now we fart around deciding if we need a piece of basic first world infrastructure.

P.S. I think you’ll find the “like it or leave” statement applies to immigrants who came here for the free stuff and the good life, and then complain about how bad they’ve got it.

Hooroo!

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Maybe you’re too young to have witnessed the steep decline in this country. We used to be a can do nation with unashamed aspirations and now we’re frozen stiff by short term politics and PC crap. Ask any old timer when was the last time Australia did anything really great and they’ll reply “the snowy hydro”, a great achievement by any measure.....almost half a century ago! Now we fart around deciding if we need a piece of basic first world infrastructure.

P.S. I think you’ll find the “like it or leave” statement applies to immigrants who came here for the free stuff and the good life, and then complain about how bad they’ve got it.

Hooroo!

You didn’t answer my question. If Australia is such a terrible backwards country, which other countries are doing better? The U.S. has the Trump administration, gun control problems and crumbling infrastructure. The U.K. has brexit which has the potential to implode their economy (note the drop in the value of the pound since the vote). Asia has massive pollution and over population issues, the EU has opened the flood gates to refugees (1 million in Germany alone), the Middle East is great if you’re a fan of sharia law and oppressing women. South African farmers are being murdered every second day. But hang on, Melbourne Airport doesn’t have a rail link (never mind that the Tullamarine Freeway was just widened). What a terrible country we live in! I fly with heaps of guys who have spent time overseas due to the Ansett Collapse or the ‘89 dispute and I think most of them are pretty happy to be home.

Sometimes in life it’s worthwhile to remember just how good you’ve got it!

[machtuk]

Maybe you’re too young to have witnessed the steep decline in this country. We used to be a can do nation with unashamed aspirations and now we’re frozen stiff by short term politics and PC crap. Ask any old timer when was the last time Australia did anything really great and they’ll reply “the snowy hydro”, a great achievement by any measure.....almost half a century ago! Now we fart around deciding if we need a piece of basic first world infrastructure.

P.S. I think you’ll find the “like it or leave” statement applies to immigrants who came here for the free stuff and the good life, and then complain about how bad they’ve got it.

Hooroo!


Well said, we now live in a seriously fractured society led by sucsesive inept Govts.
i feel sorry for the future generations of Australia, am glad I lived most of my life in a once proud country.

[Ascend Charlie]

We are frozen by partisan politics. Look how long it took them to even start Buggery's Crack Airport.

In Jakarta, they have built an elevated railway right around the city leading to the airport, over 40 km, with elevated stations and it basically follows the freeway. In Oz the Labor and greens would scream their tatts off at the mere mention of such a project.

[Global Aviator]

Straya...

I know I mention it a bit, West Brisbane, Wellcamp.

I don’t think enough focus has been put on what CAN be done if it wants to be done.

We are building an airport here - gubment no your not due airspace.

Airport built and operating.

Wagners proved what CAN be done, I jest but why not give every tender to them? Buggery’s would actually be built or are there more studies to be done on the rare western slug, or is it environmental impacts on blah blah blah.

Straya tied up by a gubment wanting to stay in power 4 years.

As mentioned above LKY was spot on.

Oh back on topic... Trains to airports... Choo Choo...

[ExtraShot]

Everyone having a go at Melbourne...

Oh no, I’m happy to include Sydney as a ‘Sh&@hole’ as well. Looks pretty from the Air at least!


Only problem is the trash is mixed now as Melbourne and Sydney added a million people, improving 'vibrancy'

Yes, that’s a Million people EACH, in a little under a decade. Then built practically NO additional infrastructure to cope with it. Vibrancy! Yay! At least Harry Triguboff and Gerry Harvey (et al) got rich and the Federal Governments got to crow about their GDP figures!

Now that the pollies have decided building some infrastructure might be a good idea, we end up paying through the nose because it now requires Tunneling, repurchasing property, moving other infrastructure, etc, etc... and then we still have to add in all the vested interests wanting their share of the cash...

[gordonfvckingramsay]

ECAMS etc...Since when has Australia based its standards on how bad it is everywhere else? I don’t have any aspirations to move OS, that’s why this pace annoys me.

[machtuk]

ECAMS etc...Since when has Australia based its standards on how bad it is everywhere else? I don’t have any aspirations to move OS, that’s why this pace annoys me.

Save ya breath ya cant convince people who look outside their own backyard for reasons & excuses, we live HERE not over there! We all know that a lot of other countries can build anything in a short time frame, we are NOT one of them due total lack of leadership, corruption, something here that runs too deep to be effective for the good!

[ramble on]

if Humanity is going to get past the next millennium we need to concentrate on quality and not quantity especially in so called leading first world countries.

Quality in every aspect of our societies - including city infrastructure. Cities should be a nice place to be - not rat runs.

The Australian big business continuous growth and development “everything for profit” model doesn’t work to our long term benefit. We are being “mined” as a resource. It should be the other way around.

Australia is becoming 3rd world.

[cattletruck]

As long as we keep telling the bogans that Melbourne is the world's most liveable city and they keep believing it then Melbourne remains the world's most liveable city.

I've never had a problem using SkyBus (or other airport bus services) so don't believe a rail link will improve anything. SkyBus runs every 15m in peak, and other companies e.g. the Dandenong Airporter, have reasonable timetables if you are willing to book beforehand.

Melbourne metropolitan trains still operate with a steam age mentality. Nearly empty regional services are given higher priority causing delays and blockages in the city loop to regular metropolitan trains, and when these regional trains eventually pass they get every red signal at every station along their way to the country. And if a normal train is cancelled along a line at peak hour then all subsequent trains are full like sardine cans. You would think the train company would be able to shunt a train or two travelling in the opposite to peak to pick up the fat just like the trammies do so well, but no its all too hard for the sh!t for brains running the system.

Honestly, I don't want or need a rail link to Melbourne airport as it will be crap just like the rest of Melbourne's rail network.

[Buster Hyman]

The big plan they had was to instigate TCAS (Train Communication And Signalling) that would allow a higher flow rate through the network. (Instead of signals controlling blocks of track, TCAS would just maintain separation) This was being rolled out before I left, roughly 5 years ago. You can probably thank the militant arm of the RTBU (drivers) for that little gem.

Anyway, regardless of that, the City Loop, as cattletruck mentioned, is the achilles heel of the system. Honestly, I don't know of anywhere in the world where trains reverse direction in a tube/loop at lunchtime!

[havick]

The price and frequency of Skybus to Melbourne Airport makes an airport train station unfeasible.
I cant find a train service to any airport (that has a dedicated station) in a western country for less than $18 Aussie. Which funnily enough is about the cost of skybus.
The rise of Uber etc has made an airport train station even less attractive.

I literally just caught a train from Fort Worth to Terminal B at DFW for $2.50 one way.

They finished building this rail line in Jan.

[machtuk]

I literally just caught a train from Fort Worth to Terminal B at DFW for $2.50 one way.

They finished building this rail line in Jan.

I was in DFW middle of last year, the place was amazing! First time for me there & I was impressed with the infrastructure of the airport, coming back to Oz made me feel as if I dropped back into the last century & expected to see Smithy taxing in in his Southern Cross! We really are very bad at planning ahead, there's simply no foresight or leadership, just squabbling idiots called politicians!

[whatever6719]

Im not happy with the way the place is being run much either BUT, Im really glad to live in a country that at least has some consideration for the people that big infrastructure projects affects.
Sure, you get major projects like highways, trains tracks or whatever built in record time but did you spare a thought for how many hundreds of people that were most likely chucked out of their homes with god knows
what compensation if any? I'd hate to think of what has been destroyed just so some accountant can get to the office 10 minutes faster
At least in this country, the impact on the average person is considered, as well as the environment ..as it should be, unlike other countries.

We all have to accept that we live in an imperfect world ..its never ever gonna always be the way we would like.

[ExtraShot]

At least in this country, the impact on the average person is considered, as well as the environment

Net Overseas Migration running at 3-4 Times traditionally ‘average levels’ , with the bulk of said migrants crowding into already overcrowded and under-supported Capital cities, considers no such thing.

Infrastructure cannot keep up, wage growth is depressed, public services are further overcrowded the Environment has to support far denser concentrations of people; I can go on.

Even the infrastructure that ultimately is built comes up short, as it is Years later than required. Then ultimately we pay through the nose for it to be built (for various reasons that are mostly related to the above), then pay through the nose to use it once it’s finished!

If the impact on people and the Environment were a consideration, far more manageable levels of population growth should be the starting point.

[GA Driver]

if Humanity is going to get past the next millennium we need to concentrate on quality and not quantity especially in so called leading first world countries.

Quality in every aspect of our societies - including city infrastructure. Cities should be a nice place to be - not rat runs.

The Australian big business continuous growth and development “everything for profit” model doesn’t work to our long term benefit. We are being “mined” as a resource. It should be the other way around.

Australia is becoming 3rd world.


This is spot on, the only thing you forgot was ‘return on investment’ and ‘shareholder return’ (As all infrastructure costs require this :rolleyes: .) Someone has to get rich for all this ‘planning’ work to be done.

[601]

This is spot on, the only thing you forgot was ‘return on investment’ and ‘shareholder return’

Tthe old chestnut " cost benefit analysis", you know like the one they did on the Sydney Harbour Bridge. How many lanes would we build on the SYB these days?

just squabbling idiots called politicians!

And all the NIMBYs that come out of hibernation or a change in Govt.

An example is the excellent idea we had in Brisbane for the cross river tunnel. It was to included BUS and rail.
However, like a lot of other progressive engineering, as against political, thinking, it was "de-newmanised" by the present Govt. So we may get a tunnel with just rail.

The bus expansion has now to compete for routes and stops with other surface infrastructure..

[Ascend Charlie]

Don't forget that other magnificent piece of planning, the new QLD trains, Annastacia Btfsplk's crowning glory.

Buy new trains to our Gummint's specification, but don't bother checking if they are the right size or if they work or not, then discover that they are totally wrong and need huge amounts of money to rectify.

Then start wailing that there are not enough train drivers, and that it takes 2 YEARS to "train" a driver, and they are only allowed to train people already working for the QLD Rail, and that no other already-qualified people are allowed to be hired, because the unions won't allow it.

Then use a diesel loco to drag the new trains into the fixing house, because nobody is qualified to drive the stupid things to get them fixed.

And then question why people wonder WTF is going on.

[601]

need huge amounts of money to rectify
This is a classic.
A major toilet cubicle design flaw in the State Government's $4.4 billion New Generation Rollingstock trains means the carriages will be transported to Maryborough from India to be fixed.
In what is mounting as a farcical situation for the heavily delayed train building contract with Canadian manufacturer Bombardier, southeast Queensland public transport company TransLink has confirmed all 75 trains under the contract will be built in India and shipped to the state with the identified design flaw.
37 trains, which will still be built with problem toilet cubicles, are yet to enter production under the project.
The faulty trains will then be split into individual cars and driven by truck to Maryborough, where the toilets will be modified to meet disability access standards.
It follows a $155 million deal with local manufacturer Downer EDI to fix the trains was announced by the Labor Government two weeks before the 2017 state election.
The patch-up funding was trumpeted as a boon for local jobs in the must-win seat of Maryborough.
But it was never revealed until now that faulty trains would continue to be built under the plan.
Mr Saunders said the good news was the required work would bring "substantive" jobs back to the job-starved town of Maryborough.

Why in heavens name would you continue to build the trains in India knowing full well that they will require modification once the arrive in Qld.
To top it off, Bombardier indicated that they would modify the trains at a cost of $ZERO.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Someone has mates at Downer EDI perhaps? Doesn’t this sort of thing to tender? Zero dollars is pretty hard to beat I would have thought.

[Bend alot]

Net Overseas Migration running at 3-4 Times traditionally ‘average levels’ , with the bulk of said migrants crowding into already overcrowded and under-supported Capital cities, considers no such thing.

Infrastructure cannot keep up, wage growth is depressed, public services are further overcrowded the Environment has to support far denser concentrations of people; I can go on.

Even the infrastructure that ultimately is built comes up short, as it is Years later than required. Then ultimately we pay through the nose for it to be built (for various reasons that are mostly related to the above), then pay through the nose to use it once it’s finished!

If the impact on people and the Environment were a consideration, far more manageable levels of population growth should be the starting point.


You really should be factual - Last years migration level is lower than other years.

Australia’s migrant intake will be substantially down this financial year – possibly 25,000 below the 190,000 planned figure – led by reductions in the number of skilled and sponsored working visas.

The migration program has been at 190,000 since 2012-13 but dropped to 183,000 last financial year and will fall further again this year.
In 1970 the rate was 13.27 migrants per 1,000 people, 1980 was 3.31, 2000 was 4.07, 2005 was 5.85, 2010 was 10.6 and 2015 was 7.95.

Agreed a problem is most of the immigrants tend to go to Sydney and Melbourne and that needs to be addressed.

Australia actually needs more migration not less, it is a simple numbers thing!

By 2030 we will not need a train, we will just get either a google, Uber or Amazon drone to take us to the airport using our monthly subscription drone service.

[machtuk]

I think most in here know this place is rudderless ship when t comes to major decisions & infrastructure, trouble is Australia COULD be a great country but it never will, well not in the foreseeable future anyway. We have a fairly stable climate (despite all the numbnuts who subscribe to climate change), huge open spaces, we are pretty much left alone from the major world issues, we are resource rich but we are seriously corrupt at all levels, we plebs at the bottom of the food chain haven't got a chance neither has future generations! Still we made our bed now we must lie in it!

[rodney rude]

Self centred, totally useless politicians combined with corporate greed are both killing this country.

A few years ago I got a lift with a friend into the centre of Minneapolis - a city comparable to Adelaide. She said
she doesnt usually drive to saver parking fees. She pad $5 for all day undercover parking in the city centre, When
I got home a sent here a picture of parking fees at one Melbourne under cover - first hour $56.

The I took the 45 minute train ride to the airport - $1.75. This ****hole is just ruined by greed.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

We have a fairly stable climate (despite all the numbnuts who subscribe to climate change)

wow, so you’ve exposed yourself as a climate change denier. Really adding credibility to your argument 😂

[ExtraShot]

You really should be factual - Last years migration level is lower than other years.

Australia’s migrant intake will be substantially down this financial year – possibly 25,000 below the 190,000 planned figure – led by reductions in the number of skilled and sponsored working visas.

The migration program has been at 190,000 since 2012-13 but dropped to 183,000 last financial year and will fall further again this year.
In 1970 the rate was 13.27 migrants per 1,000 people, 1980 was 3.31, 2000 was 4.07, 2005 was 5.85, 2010 was 10.6 and 2015 was 7.95.

Agreed a problem is most of the immigrants tend to go to Sydney and Melbourne and that needs to be addressed.

Australia actually needs more migration not less, it is a simple numbers thing!

By 2030 we will not need a train, we will just get either a google, Uber or Amazon drone to take us to the airport using our monthly subscription drone service.

The running average of Net Overseas Migration before figures were boosted by the Howard government, (and then boosted further to over 300000 one year during Rudd’s reign of incompetence), were 70000 per year. In the year to June 2018 the figure was 236733.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/featurearticlesbyCatalogue/7A40A407211F35F4CA257A2200120EAA

The increase has boosted those GDP figures nicely, and the made the federal budget look much better than it otherwise would have. Shame about Housing prices, the cost/quality of now much more crowded public services schools/hospitals/public transport, wage growth, the time it took you to get from A to B, general quality of life, etc...

There is no basis for you assertion the ‘Australia needs more immigration, not less’. Oh wait , ‘aging population’, yeah? A far more moderate, carefully managed migration program focusing on The quality of migrants rather than large quantities, will be just as effective as filling skills shortages. We are able to train and employ our own citizens ahead of almost all of the occupations on the ‘skilled’ Migration list , which much of the time is merely an excuse to keep wage growth flat and not have to spend on training your own workforce (Qantaslink anybody?)

With all those Uber and Amazon drones you talk about coming (!), along with all the other automation we’re expection in the coming decades, where will this growing population work? Come to think of it, It’d probably support an ageing popultaion, with a highly trained sector of working people, quite well!

You can’t force people not to live in Sydney or Melbourne, so the problems there will just keep growing (and with other Capitals as well, because most migrants don’t move to regional areas), with the ABS predicting Sydney will have a population of 9 million by around 2050 or so. Can you imagine that? Wow, how livable, it’ll only take you 4 hours in traffic everyday to get to and from work, but just imagine the ‘vibrancy’!

[TimmyTee]

wow, so you’ve exposed yourself as a climate change denier. Really adding credibility to your argument 😂

He's not the only one on here (or on the flight deck). Not sure if it's vested interests, or a certain type who become pilots. It's amazing we rely on science so much on a daily basis, yet so many pick and choose which science they want to believe!

[Bend alot]

The running average of Net Overseas Migration before figures were boosted by the Howard government, (and then boosted further to over 300000 one year during Rudd’s reign of incompetence), were 70000 per year. In the year to June 2018 the figure was 236733.

3101.0 - Australian Demographic Statistics, Jun 2018 (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/featurearticlesbyCatalogue/7A40A407211F35F4CA257A2200120EAA)

The increase has boosted those GDP figures nicely, and the made the federal budget look much better than it otherwise would have. Shame about Housing prices, the cost/quality of now much more crowded public services schools/hospitals/public transport, wage growth, the time it took you to get from A to B, general quality of life, etc...

There is no basis for you assertion the ‘Australia needs more immigration, not less’. Oh wait , ‘aging population’, yeah? A far more moderate, carefully managed migration program focusing on The quality of migrants rather than large quantities, will be just as effective as filling skills shortages. We are able to train and employ our own citizens ahead of almost all of the occupations on the ‘skilled’ Migration list , which much of the time is merely an excuse to keep wage growth flat and not have to spend on training your own workforce (Qantaslink anybody?)

With all those Uber and Amazon drones you talk about coming (!), along with all the other automation we’re expection in the coming decades, where will this growing population work? Come to think of it, It’d probably support an ageing popultaion, with a highly trained sector of working people, quite well!

You can’t force people not to live in Sydney or Melbourne, so the problems there will just keep growing (and with other Capitals as well, because most migrants don’t move to regional areas), with the ABS predicting Sydney will have a population of 9 million by around 2050 or so. Can you imagine that? Wow, how livable, it’ll only take you 4 hours in traffic everyday to get to and from work, but just imaging the ‘vibrancy’!
The Howard Government 1996- 2007 visas granted 73,900 and 148,200 respectively however his first full year 1998 it was reduced to 67,100 visas granted.
The Rudd Government highest number of visa grants appears to be 171,318. So if you have a figure of over 300,000 that means a lot of returning residents entered Australia that year.

Last year Australia's migration planning level was unchanged at 190,000 most of this is skilled migration and includes around 54,000 in partner visas (partners and children of an Australian citizen or PR). For the first time in many years this planning level was not meet - we could not attract enough skilled worker applicants and were 25,000 short. Partner visa planning levels were meet and FYI it has around 12-24 month processing time and over $7,000 for the application. The Skilled worker visas are much cheaper and faster.

Over the years Migration Program planning numbers have fluctuated according to the priorities and economic and political considerations of the government of the day. By 1969 program planning figures had reached a high of 185 000. However, by 1975, the planned intake for the year had been reduced to 50 000. The migration intake gradually climbed again after this and by 1988 there was another peak under the Hawke Government with a planned intake of 145 000. After 1988 the Migration Program planning levels were gradually reduced, with a low of 80 000 in 1992–93.

After the Howard Government came to power in 1996, following an initial dip, there was a gradual increase in the planned migration intake, with immigration seen as being closely tied to economic growth. This upward trend was initially continued under the Rudd Government, with numbers reaching a record high of 190 300 in 2008–09. However, in 2009–10 the planned intake was reduced to 168 700, and has been kept at this level for 2010–11.The recent reductions in the Migration Program have been attributed to the impact of the global financial crisis (GFC) on the Australian economy, which led to a decline in the need for additional skilled labour.It remains to be seen what impact the ‘sustainable population’ debate taking place in the context of the 2010 election will have on future Migration Program planning levels.



Yes, the ageing population of current tax payers is a factor of migration requirements and a reason that there are age limits on the skilled worker visas. What many are not aware about the 130,000ish Skilled Worker visas granted is that they include partners and children. so the actual number of "workers is much lower than 130,000 and the children are future tax payers.

The Skilled Workers program is very flawed and yes a reason to stop wage growth, the place I work is a prime example. But there are ways that can be fixed. Labour Hire companies are far more to blame for flat wage growth.

The jobs of the future will certainly be different from the jobs we are use to now - HR grew out of nothing, I still do not see the need for them, other than a mouth of a manager that does not have the balls to say things themselves. But certainly some interesting options will arise to suck a reasonable amount of that large pool of Supa from the many retirees.

There certainly are ways to get the incoming migrants to settle in other areas, South Australia introduced one recently.

It seems I returned to Australia at that peak on the graph in your link and became a resident again. I obtained a visa for my wife, and my two children obtained citizenship by descent - sorry if that offends you.

* in addition to the 190,000 there is the 15,000 humanitarian visas granted that are not included in that number (that a resultant of fighting in wars).

[Ascend Charlie]

15,000 humanitarian visas granted

...and they go straight onto the Centrelink teat and suck the life out of us taxpayers.

[ExtraShot]

So if you have a figure of over 300,000 that means a lot of returning residents entered Australia that year.

Not my figures, it’s right there in the ABS data. It might include more Australians returning, but that’s part of the NOM calculation. That year we had population growth that practically added another Canberra to our total (we’re now doing that every two years ,roughly), do you see that equivalent level of infrastructure being built? No? Then that effects people’s quality of life, and usually it’s disproportionately affecting the poorer demographics that rely on the Public Transport, Public Schools and Public hospitals, etc, to a greater extent.

There are certainly ways to get the incoming migrants to settle in other areas

We have been trying this as a country for at least a Century in various forms. It doesn’t work. People are always going to migrate to Sydney and Melbourne (and other capitals) in greater numbers, exacerbating congestion issues.

Moderation of the migration program back to historic norms would allow the States to catch up and, more or less keep up.


sorry if that offends you

What? Seriously?

[Bend alot]

...and they go straight onto the Centrelink teat and suck the life out of us taxpayers.
A 2 second search.

https://www.dss.gov.au/settlement-services/programs-policy/syrian-and-iraqi-refugee-crisis/saras-story

Two jobs and studying.

https://www.dss.gov.au/settlement-services/refugee-stories

[Bend alot]

Not my figures, it’s right there in the ABS data. It might include more Australians returning, but that’s part of the NOM calculation. That year we had population growth that practically added another Canberra to our total (we’re now doing that every two years ,roughly), do you see that equivalent level of infrastructure being built? No? Then that effects people’s quality of life, and usually it’s disproportionately affecting the poorer demographics that rely on the Public Transport, Public Schools and Public hospitals, etc, to a greater extent.



We have been trying this as a country for at least a Century in various forms. It doesn’t work. People are always going to migrate to Sydney and Melbourne (and other capitals) in greater numbers, exacerbating congestion issues.

Moderation of the migration program back to historic norms would allow the States to catch up and, more or less keep up.




What? Seriously?
The population growth of Australia is planned at 2% per year (for a long time), of course the numbers must then get bigger.
Your data does not support 3-4 times unless you pick a selected year or a lull period not an average over time .

Why not refuse the Australians that decided to leave Australia and not contribute to the country's growth in infrastructure by paying taxes here, that right to return then?

See over the past 20 years millions of us have left Australia to make good money in other countries and not paid any taxes here - yet we expect the place to improve and grow in our absence. If you leave a house for 20 years it will be in very poor shape when you return. If you rent that house it will not be as bad but it will not be improved.

Australia has for years been renting infrastructure, Sydney and Melbourne airports are prime examples and will not be improved.

There are options to have new immigrants move to places other than Sydney and Melbourne. There are incentives such as the new SA ones and then there can be penalties ones such as employer fees for sponsorship of skilled workers on a sliding scale. Need a doctor in Exmouth fee $300 want a doctor in Sydney $4,000,000 all per year, 4 years Tr then 4 years renewable after 8 years Pr grant and they can live where they want.

You would get a few specialist doctors still going to Sydney at $4M per year but not just every doctor that wishes to live in Australia. After 8 years in Exmouth you could never live in Sydney.

[ExtraShot]

The population growth of Australia is planned at 2% per year (for a long time), of course the numbers must then get bigger.

2% population growth... an obscene figure. That’s 500000 additional people, every... single... year..! At present it is around 1.6% (400000 per year), which is more than twice that of the U.K. and US and most other OECD countries. Again we are not building the infrastructure to support it, around a Canberra worth every year. As the subject of the origin of this thread suggests, we will be unable to do so within any reasonable timeframe or cost. That leaves us sharing more crowded and slower existing infrastructure with more and more people, lowering quality of life for the majority, usually those at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale.


Your data does not support 3-4 times unless you pick a selected year or a lull period not an average over time


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/730x526/e252f0ca_f50e_445b_acb5_184a59af1ca9_94b1fc71f68760154c5e6ff a7521884aeea29968.png



Why not refuse the Australians that decided to leave Australia and not contribute to the country's growth in infrastructure by paying taxes here, that right to return then?

Reductio ad absurdum...

Im not arguing against population growth or immigration. Merely the size of our current program, one of the largest in the OECD, for minimal gain for the majority of the population, which significantly contributes to the issues raised in this thread with this and other pieces of infrastructure that we build.

[Mk 1]

...and they go straight onto the Centrelink teat and suck the life out of us taxpayers.

They do do they? Tell me more...

[pilotchute]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.news.com.au/finance/work/careers/migrants-unemployment-rate-among-new-australians-doubles/news-story/8211ef023e576933198a9256248712ed

[Berealgetreal]

Easier to dig rocks out of ground or import people for growth rather than innovate.
Lucky country- lazy option.

[tech9803]

I cant find a train service to any airport (that has a dedicated station) in a western country for less than $18 Aussie.

Chicago $5
San Francisco $9.65
Copenhagen about US$6
Amsterdam E9.50

[Ascend Charlie]

Mk I said: They do do they? Tell me more...

Migrants from the Middle East and North Africa are also three times more likely than European or Asian immigrants to be out of work in the first five years of settlement. And their 33 per cent jobless rate is six times higher than the national average.

[mickjoebill]

Sydney did it, but only with an Olympics looming, and they made it cost so much it’s cheaper to get a cab into the city with more than 1 person

Was in Sydney on Friday and Saturday, on a My first senior! opal card, $17 took me to and from the airport and as many ferry, train and train rides around Sydney as I wished.

mjb

[Derfred]

Was in Sydney on Friday and Saturday, on a My first senior! opal card, $17 took me to and from the airport and as many ferry, train and train rides around Sydney as I wished.

mjb

Awesome!

Last time I was there with my wife and son it was cheaper to catch a cab.

[Tankengine]

Was in Sydney on Friday and Saturday, on a My first senior! opal card, $17 took me to and from the airport and as many ferry, train and train rides around Sydney as I wished.

mjb

To be fair though; if you had not travelled from the Airport your fare with a Seniors Opal would only have been $2.50 for the day.

[patty50]

Was in Sydney on Friday and Saturday, on a My first senior! opal card, $17 took me to and from the airport and as many ferry, train and train rides around Sydney as I wished.

mjb

Solution is for everyone to be a boomer then we can all enjoy reasonably priced public transport travel.

[PoppaJo]

Andrews out of cash! Rail is now ‘on hold’

I mean, what’s another 20 years.

[Capn Bloggs]

Don't worry, his labor mates/matesses in CBR will see to it that you get more of other state's GST to help out. "Their budget is in good shape", she (Zoe Daniel) said. :cool:

[Icarus2001]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1625x846/3ee1c474_6e32_4e49_a9bd_58323271293d_64a0eae45fe84b09c086a59 6a57e7998c67ca79d.jpeg

[ajax58]

Is there any source on this other than the HS article?

[Capn Bloggs]

Oh that is a beauty, Iccy! :D

[Ladloy]

I'd love to know how any of this has anything to do with socialism?

[nonsense]

The problem with rampant capitalism is that eventually you run out of other people's children to send down the coal mines.



https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1625x846/3ee1c474_6e32_4e49_a9bd_58323271293d_64a0eae45fe84b09c086a59 6a57e7998c67ca79d.jpeg

[neville_nobody]

The problem with rampant capitalism is that eventually you run out of other people's children to send down the coal mines.

It's not a problem really all that happens is that the cost of labour increases increasing the cost of your final product. If people agree that we shouldn't have child labour and can afford to pay more for products they will. That is the real beauty of true capitalism is that it is self correcting. If something becomes too expensive to produce the market will soon figure it out and people stop buying the product or change their spending habits.

[Sunfish]

Strictly correct NN - in perfect competition in a free market.

However our markets are not free and there is no perfect competition.

Transport is most definitely not a free market!

Rail is a natural monopoly - unless you are prepared to build say 5 competing rail lines - so rial charges a monopoly premium.

Taxis and hire cars? Nope, the vehicles and drivers are licenced and numbers are capped.

Airport access? Nope - the parking nazis see to that.

[PPRuNeUser01531]

Reckon extending the present tram line from YMEN to YMML could be a cost affective and viable option to consider in the short term. Not for everybody but sure many would take advantage of such a service.

[Deaf]

Reckon extending the present tram line from YMEN to YMML could be a cost affective and viable option to consider in the short term. Not for everybody but sure many would take advantage of such a service.

Timetable for route 59 shows ~45min to YMEN probably another 10 min to YMML. About the only time the bus has taken so long for me was when the B200 crash at YMEN blocked the freeway and we went via the ringroad.

[PoppaJo]

How about we just build a train line from the city to the damn airport! As soon as bloody possible! How hard is it. Only in Oz. Embarrassing.

[Capn Bloggs]

Poppa, read post #65. Comrade Dan has spent all his (taxpayers) money.

[RickNRoll]

Capn, the cost has blown out to a massive amount due to years of delays. Land and corridors have long been built over. If they had built it at the same time as the airport it would have cost very little. The real reason it hasn't been built yet is because the airport is really a massive capark business. A train would impact those profits.

[Global Aviator]

I know Asian countries are 3rd world and have no idea……

Bangkok - skyrail
Kuala Lumpur - fast train
Singapore - subway
Jakarta - train (45 min)
Osaka / Haneda / Narita - fast and easy bullet access
Hong Kong - super efficient
China - can’t remember been to long!

Straya - leading the way!

[Sparrows.]

China - can’t remember been to long!


Shanghai - Maglev

[Capn Bloggs]

Straya - leading the way!
Perth! Train. :ok:

[PoppaJo]

Wonder who is paying for the SRL then. No doubt will blow out to over $100b.

[Icarus2001]

Perth! Train. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

A train ride to domestic that has a station no where near the terminal, you know, for the future business park.

[ExtraShot]

A train ride to domestic that has a station no where near the terminal, you know, for the future business park.


The Airport station is right underneath the control tower, centrally located for the future terminal consolidation. The fare is less than 5 bucks.

Redcliffe station is near the Qantas terminal, linked by a 10 minute walk or the use of the carpark bus. That terminal will likely move in due course so why go to the effort of putting an entire train station underneath it?

[Icarus2001]

ExtraShot, read what I wrote. DOMESTIC side.

[Capn Bloggs]

Iccy, Extrashot is correct. It's not DOMESTIC. You're talking about the current QANTAS terminal. Perth airport should have built the eastern Qantas terminal (and second runway) by now but...

[ExtraShot]

ExtraShot, read what I wrote. DOMESTIC side.

I did read it. As Bloggs has clarified, it is merely the Qantas side.

What is the Airport station is pretty perfectly located for a consolidated terminal. Perth Airport and now the State government no longer want Qantas on the Western side anymore than necessary, so the train station on that side was never intended to facilitate them staying.

I believe the Redcliffe Station master plan is for an area akin to what is like the Mascot precinct in Sydney… commercial, hotels, apartments… eventually (as with everything in WA - Wait Awhile).


With regards to that terminal move, I’ve heard rumors Qantas may be relenting in their tiff with Perth Airport, with a (large) sum being offered up by Qantas if it’s matched by the other parties in various ways and forms. The current digs would be improved to allow Qantas to do a bit more of the international flying it wants to (fixing whatever caused the Joburg flights to cease and Jakarta flights to be still born)while a new terminal extension is built on the Eastern side. I guess we’ll see how that works out.

[Icarus2001]

Quite right. Slip of the keys, by domestic I was showing my age as I still think of the West side as domestic. After Q spent nearly $100milion upgrading their terminal they will not be in a hurry to move.
How is that parallel runway coming along?

[ExtraShot]

Ahhh, the parallel runway… we’ve all seen the drawings… heard how great it will be…

Everyone wants it, no one wants to pay for it, and rest assured the rent-seekers on various sides are busy!

This is Australia though, and it matters who you are mates with, and ultimately it is us the public that will pay for it, and the profits will float magically off into the ether.

The thing that impresses me most about the airport train line in Perth is that it is infrastructure that will be ‘grown into’. In terms of patronage , surrounding development, and future extensions. We’re pretty much always playing catch up with when infrastructure is built in this country, but this seems to be an example of getting ahead of the curve. It happens so rarely.