Engagement survey.... [Archive]

RAT Management

9th Mar 2019, 00:43

Two years ago the survey results were so bad that it was necessary to follow up with interviews from the survey provider, to find out exactly where the root of the problems are and how things could be fixed. The result was it was so bad, it couldn't be fixed!

Last year's survey is worse! To further substantiate the survey results the most recent TA showed even more crews had been turned off and we're not swallowing the lies any more.

Now you say you are going to fix the distrust. Don't get me wrong, I would like to see it done. But the guys I fly with are either one foot out the door. Or believe nothing will change and it's more fluff. I have to agree. World wars are sorted out in less time than this industrial dispute!

I hope you can prove me wrong but as a start why not address these areas:
HKPA
Statue holiday pay.
13th month excluded from captains 2 years ago. ( That was really wise...)
Bypass pay.
Flat out honesty and transperancy.
Flights like Perth... You know the issue but nobody will actually address the problem... Instead it's soft solutions and intimidatory pressures but they don't really address the issue do they?

I am sure the other readers of this would like to add to the list.

Maybe then you won't need an engagement survey.

Please prove us all wrong and stop this ship from sinking. It might mean you don't get your bonus but wouldn't that be putting money where your mouth is. Or, "Leadership through action" in your terms. Maybe then, we would see the commitment and true value you hold for your crews. The same true value and commitment that you always speak about.

Honestly, good luck. I hope you prove us wrong. It would make you the best manager of all time and set the required direction for all that follow, and truly complete the badly needed transformation.

Also on a side note, that photo of you, I hope your ok old boy? because you don't look well?

plainpilot11

9th Mar 2019, 02:19

If our Ass. had any balls, they would expel from the Ass. anyone who fills out that survey. There should not be a SiNGLE pilot who fills that survey out.

I’m not.

CyberT

9th Mar 2019, 04:35

unitedabx

9th Mar 2019, 05:10

It goes much much deeper than policy. The vast majority of pilots have no confidence in the individual managers to turn this around. Yes men and blow-in's for a few years from Swire populate the 9th floor and don't have the airline as their first priority but rather their bonus and next Swire posting. On the 3rd floor are wannabee's. None with management experience just the ability to bend over and take whatever senior management want to insert so they can report back to their wives that they are management types. Pathetic.

If this airline is to survive and expand a completely new team (from outside the Swire world) is needed. Thats what AA and BA did and it worked. New blood for a new beginning not the same old same old Swire vampires sucking the life out of the company.

Amber Vibes

9th Mar 2019, 06:13

Excellent post, Dan Buster.

unitedabx

9th Mar 2019, 07:05

Spot on Dan.

Management have cried wolf once too often. Now the house really is blowing down.

White None

9th Mar 2019, 07:29

If our Ass. had any balls, they would expel from the Ass. anyone who fills out that survey. There should not be a SiNGLE pilot who fills that survey out.

Disagree, The intent of CC is to not help the company to any further extent than our contract, whilst remaining legal, professional and wholly fulfilling our contract. In what way do you think that filling out the survey and telling them exactly how bad things are, and why, is helping them? It’s an opportunity to put some official numbers out there to the whole CPA and Swire community which can’t be hidden or spun showing how bad things are. If your personal non-official intent is to hamper things and make life hard or uncomfortable, then again, fill out the surveys! Just to say NO to be opposing a request is missing the opportunity to assist with the “own goal” which this survey produces, every time.

IMO, the association should encourage 100% engagement with stating how disengaged we are. Notwithstanding that, I will do whatever the Ass. mandates next time it comes round, last time it was deemed a personal choice.

unitedabx

9th Mar 2019, 08:12

Disagree, The intent of CC is to not help the company to any further extent than our contract, whilst remaining legal, professional and wholly fulfilling our contract. In what way do you think that filling out the survey and telling them exactly how bad things are, and why, is helping them? It’s an opportunity to put some official numbers out there to the whole CPA and Swire community which can’t be hidden or spun showing how bad things are. If your personal non-official intent is to hamper things and make life hard or uncomfortable, then again, fill out the surveys! Just to say NO to be opposing a request is missing the opportunity to assist with the “own goal” which this survey produces, every time.

IMO, the association should encourage 100% engagement with stating how disengaged we are. Notwithstanding that, I will do whatever the Ass. mandates next time it comes round, last time it was deemed a personal choice.

CC means you work to your contract, no more, no less.
Where in your contract does it say "engage in employment surveys "?

Loopdeloop

9th Mar 2019, 08:37

They’re hoping we’ll suffer from survey fatigue & not bother. The sycophants will always do it so the less honest pilots do the better their numbers. Just fill it out & be honest, they’ll get the message. They may not do anything about it but at least they’ll know!

White None

9th Mar 2019, 09:01

CC means you work to your contract, no more, no less.
Where in your contract does it say "engage in employment surveys "?

Happy to discuss the Pro’s and Con’s of this but let’s not dress up the objection to this with it breaking CC; when the last survey went in it did not - period. Are the NC breaking CC because they are engaging with the company beyond their contract? Ridiculous I know, but state your actual objections without being robotic.

For me and the other 1580 pilots who participated last time, we judged that it was a choice, and a chance to express our discontent for our benefit.

mr did

9th Mar 2019, 10:30

Promote "feeling listened to and respected" and "building trust through leadership"... really?? Thats the sort of crap you get from a consultant who sees an 18% participation rate.

All of the real issues (mostly not mentioned in the results unsurprisingly) require money to fix, and this DFO, like all before him, don't control the money.

Chris: just tell your bosses they have massively overshot and to give you the money to resolve all of the very well documented current issues. Or this continues to get worse, parked aircraft worse.

White None

9th Mar 2019, 12:30

The attention to detail and outright skill at Turd Polishing is breathtaking; unfortunately we’re the ones who squeezed out the Turds so we’re not falling for it. As usual though, the double speak is probably aimed up rather than down, one can only hope that the higher powers can see through it, although maybe they just don’t care?

mngmt mole

9th Mar 2019, 14:27

Haha..., ANOTHER survey ! If a company's success was measured by the number of surveys conducted, CX really WOULD be the worlds greatest airline. As the more eloquent above me have pointed out, this is nothing more than another deflection to senior management, who they hope are being fooled into believing that some sort of real management is being done in HK. Sadly, as someone else mentioned, the house is continuing to blow down (burn down!). Dan Buster, your post was right to the point. Shame that the AM and the CK's of the world are only listening to the voices in their heads.

unitedabx

9th Mar 2019, 15:45

Happy to discuss the Pro’s and Con’s of this but let’s not dress up the objection to this with it breaking CC; when the last survey went in it did not - period. Are the NC breaking CC because they are engaging with the company beyond their contract? Ridiculous I know, but state your actual objections without being robotic.

For me and the other 1580 pilots who participated last time, we judged that it was a choice, and a chance to express our discontent for our benefit.

Buy yourself a boxing punch bag, hang it in the garage and take your frustrations out on it. By playing the companys management games and you are by completing surverys when they ask you to you just play straight into their hands. FOR ONCE why not do nothing and see what the management response is. How would the DFO start his letter ? Think what a message that would send. You say you filled out the survey last time ? How's that worked out for you ? Did you get your pay increase ? Did you get a change in management attitudes ? Did you get the promise of a filfilling career ? You got f***k all and still you want to play their games. Buy the punch bag.

Roy De Kantzow

9th Mar 2019, 18:41

A far clearer messege would be sent by 100% of pilots not completing the survey.

It was always a complete waste of time. In my 6.5 years at CX, nothing improved - things only got worse, despite surveys and all sorts.

Simply take the 20 mins you would have spent wasting your time filling it out, and relax, have a beer and spend time with friends or family.

kenfoggo

9th Mar 2019, 18:51

An Engagement Score of 18 per cent ! ! Most companies would realise that the staff/management relationship is completely and irretrievably broken. But what we get from the DFO is delusional ,disingenuous rubbish about the way forward and how many improvements have been made . While all the time he continues to create an environment where any pilot , if he or she has an opportunity to leave , cannot see a reason to remain at Cathy Pacific. Even the Chief Pilot Boeing Fleet cannot see the point in hanging around, he’s also off to pastures new.

Slasher1

9th Mar 2019, 19:23

The opposite of love is not hate. It is apathy.

When people really don’t give a ****e anymore you are not in a good place.

mngmt mole

9th Mar 2019, 20:52

Let it continue to burn. After all, the management seem to keep adding fuel to the fire.

Fly747

9th Mar 2019, 23:35

Very much agree Slasher, there is not much ****e left to give. I predict we will see a lot more guys leaving towards the middle of the year ready for their kids to start school back home or wherever at the beginning of the new school year.
Big recruitment going on for BA, if you don't go now then you'll miss your chance to grab a place on the seniority, leaving it a few months to see what happens here will leave you years behind for eventual upgrade.

TheGreenDragon

10th Mar 2019, 00:40

It's over. Most are leaving, about to leave or looking to leave. It's finally dawned on the post 49er generation that this place is ****, and will only ever get worse. POS18 etc etc
CX will be left with those who have no option but to stay.

Guys getting their A350 upgrades are seemingly a happy bunch . B777 Skippers are not leaving in any numbers higher than the industry norm for natural wastage eg retirement and or sickness. .

You comments sir , are unsubstantiated baloney .

White None

10th Mar 2019, 01:07

My last post on doing, or not doing the engagement survey. 2 points:-

1) I already have a punchbag, but you misunderstand; I don’t feel frustrated filling in the engagement survey. It’s honestly quite hilarious knowing that for some unfathomable reason, you’re being gifted an opportunity to point out, in detail, how terrible things are, in the full knowledge that it’s mandated that those views have to be made public! Of course, in isolation it won’t suddenly solve all the problems, but our resistance method has been to apply death by a 1000 cuts. For the majority of players (by definition) who sit in the middle of the bell curve of opinion, the rhetoric on Prune, the forums etc can potentially be dismissed as being from the more extreme in their views, For anyone (not talking about myself) lacking conviction, to know that the terrible results of the survey come from roughly half of the entire pilot body must embolden them to continue CC, vote No etc. I would at least think that those of you with reservations on the principle of engaging would welcome any strengthening of the masses resolve?

2) Unitedabx - you spelt/spelled, (take your geographical pick), “...f***k...” incorrectly. :=

Air Profit

10th Mar 2019, 01:24

Green Dragon, sure, everything is just fine here. No resignation problem whatsoever. That is why they can't even allocate half the required leave this year, and why they are having to put in more and more reserve on the roster, and why they are desperate to get rid of the TB. I could go on, but according to you things are just dandy, so why should I bother. CX has NEVER been better. It's all just unsubstantiated baloney.

Farman Biplane

10th Mar 2019, 05:54

A functioning, well led, HKAOA would wait till the survey comes out, copy the questions and do the survey on the HKAOA website, encouraging 100% participation rate by members, analyse the “true” data and “sell” it back to the company!
However, it seems the GC and membership are intent on bickering and backstabbing instead.

Fly747

10th Mar 2019, 06:11

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/612b5b4e_e59c_487e_914f_cde827bb622d_64a0824778f27da3cd725d8 b1f238171d8667135.jpeg

Fly747

10th Mar 2019, 06:16

I didn’t make it up. That is an actual poster seen in Kittyland.

Kid Dynamite

10th Mar 2019, 06:39

The guys, girls....now referred to as everyone, everybody....in the poster seem jumping for joy
as they leave to join their new airline !!!

broadband circuit

10th Mar 2019, 12:14

That's not a Buddhist guru - It's Matt Lucas of Little Britain fame.....

VR-HFX

10th Mar 2019, 12:48

Never thought it could happen. Didn't believe it when I saw it. But yes, this is where we have gone.

Let's make 25 March a day to meditate and NOT aviate, navigate or even communicate.

I feel new uniforms on the way...lots of orange flowing stuff and free begging bowls and a bell.

You can't make this taurus excretus up...it must come with an Oxford primer.

Let's get a bunch of Max8's or a bag of Nembutal.

Bangaluru

10th Mar 2019, 14:29

I have always filled in their BS surveys, but never again. “How would the DFO begin his email?” Indeed. There couldn’t be a stronger message sent.

DFO:
”I’m reporting that precisely no pilots filled in the 2020 employee engagement survey. Ummmm.........”

Deer in the headlights.

1200firm

10th Mar 2019, 15:16

You cannot polish a turd but you can cover it in glitter.

Apple Tree Yard

10th Mar 2019, 15:18

Regarding the survey, I hope not a single pilot submits. As for promoting a Buddhist monk and the message he has, well, I am sure that CX is soon to invite a devout Christian to also provide a positive message, then they can have a follow up by someone from the "religion of peace". This is just another piece of evidence that this airline is finished, and that our management have lost the plot. I barely get enough time with my family as it is without wasting another minute of it listening to someone that thinks I have the same value as a beetle (I know, that's exactly what our management value me at!). Seriously CK and RH, would you two get some medication and grow up? This is now passing from tragedy to farce, and YOU are the cause of it.

Flex88

10th Mar 2019, 16:41

The opposite of love is not hate. It is apathy.

When people really don’t give a ****e anymore you are not in a good place.

Exactly Slasher. If 18% participation rate is anywhere near correct, almost all of that group are likely to be clerks who feel it's their duty to log off from their eBay and Amazon accounts for 5 minutes in the hope they are not on the next group of 7/800 to get canned...

That way,"Caring Company" gets a good result in the survey from the perfect demographic.. Win win.

#CXit

Air Profit

10th Mar 2019, 21:40

I've wasted enough of my life completing worthless CX surveys. They obviously haven't listened to a single thing we've told them so why bother. I'd rather they learn the lesson by finding a way to deal with the exponentially increasing resignation rate. That's one "answer" to a question they can't keep ignoring.

FlexibleResponse

11th Mar 2019, 00:54

You would have to be a fool to think any CX Engagement Survey is meant to be for the benefit the employees.

Freehills

11th Mar 2019, 02:04

unitedabx

11th Mar 2019, 02:29

Bangaluru

11th Mar 2019, 04:01

It is very clear that senior management have lost sight of the simple fact that they "run" an airline not an internet or social media platform. These kind of lectures and forums are fine if you are on the cutting edge of employee/ employer strategies but CX and Swires remain in the last century in this regard and no Budhist Monk is going to change that.
"Manage the airline and the rest will follow".

So typical of China; look at what western companies are doing and copy the appearance superficially, thinking that’s all there is to it. Then again, perhaps that’s giving them too much credit.

Brokeidiot

11th Mar 2019, 04:26

Let’s be realistic if we COULD get ever pilot not to fill it in then great. BUT not all pilots are AOA members those non members drink the coolaid and will fill in the survey and only give glowing responses, some AOA members are just members to fit in on the flight deck they don’t even follow CC. So the reality is they will always get some responses. We don’t want those few to give them the wrong impression.

Bangaluru

11th Mar 2019, 05:40

I would say that if and when the 20% fill out the next survey and say everything is great, the contrast between that and the last 2 surveys and the 20% turn out itself would still send the right message. ie (almost) nobody cares.

BlunderBus

11th Mar 2019, 08:10

The overwhelming majority of crew just told them to shove their proposed contract where the sun don’t shine and they need MORE info on how everyone feels???? After what? 4 years of nonstop industrial action why not ask some sensible and relevant questions?? Oh I know .. why not ask the YYZ base cabin crew how they feel??

BlunderBus

12th Mar 2019, 00:12

Better idea... fill the survey in and tell them EXACTLY how you feel!!!
At least results will be consistent and perhaps beating the dog for crapping at the workplace will sink in.
What a total waste of time, money and effort.

Gnadenburg

12th Mar 2019, 01:09

I'm at KA and we had the same series of surveys. I'm not sure how it went compared to CX though its probably worse. I'm not following the management updates and I didn't participate as it's a weaponised survey I warned new joining South Africans against filling out. I told these new joiners if you fill it out with enthusiasm there will be a D Scale within five years. Six months later guess what ?

Please research these surveys and their true aims. They've been around for a long time and the only reason they want engagement is to take from you ! I'm surprised the pilot unions aren't offering more guidence or analysis.

"Industrial-organizational psychologists use psychological principles and research methods to solve problems in the workplace and improve the quality of life. They study workplace productivity and management and employee working styles. They get a feel for the morale and personality of a company or organization."

cxorcist

12th Mar 2019, 17:20

I filled out the survey and was completely honest with my answers. The survey results reflected my answers quite well. There is no danger of management thinking we approve of their work. I encourage all to fill out the surveys. If nothing changes for the better at CX, neither will the survey results. I just wish their was a section about the fuel hedging debacle as I have many thoughts to share about that.

Gnadenburg

12th Mar 2019, 23:00

That's admirably philosophical or even just hopeful? They say a man walking to the gallows still has hope. The industrial psychologists would have a filed day with this information- specifically on demographic groups and what different elements or future elements of the pilot group will accept. D scale was introduced ( possibly mistakenly ) no doubt in part due the information provided by junior demographics of both pilot groups. Jaded and expensive senior pilots will be gone soon and some of the bright eyed juniors I spoke to felt their lot would improve due their positivity in the survey.

I wonder whose results worse? KA or CX ? One group seeing themselves as contract pilots and the other are weighted by industrial action. Possibly very close.

FlexibleResponse

13th Mar 2019, 00:32

Please research these surveys and their true aims. They've been around for a long time and the only reason they want engagement is to TAKE from you ! I'm surprised the pilot unions aren't offering more guidance or analysis.

"Industrial-organizational psychologists use psychological principles and research methods to solve problems in the workplace and improve the quality of life. They study workplace productivity and management and employee working styles. They get a feel for the morale and personality of a company or organization."Ed: My bold and capitals in the second sentence for increased emphasis.

I couldn't agree more with Gnadenburg.

These surveys are not for the our benefit or to improve our lot.
They are purely for the Company to get inside your head so that they can screw us even more royally.

Just how stupid do we have to be to think that the Company in any way cares two figs about our welfare, happiness or prosperity?

They just want to get us to work as hard and as long as possible, for the absolute lowest reward they can possibly get away with. They simply don't have our moral standards.

The first survey we did in CX many years ago, ended up with B scales being invented and imposed upon us (if memory serves me).

Every subsequent survey has likewise resulted in lesser conditions and reward.

So try to see the big picture from the Company's point of view and take control of your life instead of handing it over to the Company and dancing to their song.