Best android tablet to use for SkyDemon. [Archive]

BoeingBoy

27th Feb 2019, 07:52

I've been using a Tesco Hudl II (which was well ahead of its time in performance) and it's been brilliant at running SD. It's still available on ebay with new batteries for a price that you can try out the Android presentation without spending too much. It's GPS, compass and attitude sensors allow you to run some of the 'imitation instrument' apps that could at least get you through a cloud break in a full instrument failure. However I recently bought a Lenovo Tab4+ 8" tablet to replace the Hudl as the main SD presentation and that's been excellent but has not got the compass or attitude sensors built in. Total cost of the two would be around £200.

Jan Olieslagers

27th Feb 2019, 08:41

I am using an Archos 55, but find the GPS performance less than impressive. Still it is quite sufficient, especially when flying. I never even looked into the compass or attitude sensors, I don't think they are available on this cheapo phone.

Meikleour

27th Feb 2019, 08:54

Samsung Galaxy Tab A6 about £120 from Argos works perfectly well with Skydemon. No issues with overheating either.

TheOddOne

27th Feb 2019, 16:42

ivorPhillips

27th Feb 2019, 18:14

As per Meikleour. The internal GPS works fine on my knee, for which the A6 is perfectly sized. I've also got a yoke mount for it. I find the battery lasts for 8 hours of use so no need for additional charging leads - it's completely stand-alone.

Friends of mine went 'up-country' yesterday into England. Wiltshire, actually, so a really long way!. The iPad packed up after about 30 mins as it dropped the Bluetooth connection to the GPS thingy and wouldn't recover. However, they also had a Samsung A6 which performed perfectly both ways, no need for GPS 'help'.

If iPads are so great, why is there a market for a holder with cooling fans built-in and GPS dongles?

TOO
If you brought the cellular iPad mini you would have GPS built in so no need for a dongle, and buying the silver or white model will remove a potential overheating problem,
i have flown in Spain at 40 C strapped to my leg and never had a problem with my silver one, but I will agree you will pay a premium for owning a IPad

Mooneyboy

27th Feb 2019, 19:22

Thankyou for all the replies.

Certainly these days the tablet market has a lot more choice than when I first got my iPad mini ( which isn’t the cellular one).

Had a look at Argos and the Samsung tab I couldn’t find it at the £120. The Lenovo seems to be at a good price so that might be the one I go for. The Tesco Hudl 2 with the ability for an artificial horizon sounds intriguing. I’ll have a search to see if there is a modern alternative.

Was also looking at the Huawei MediaPad T3 7 Inch 16GB Tablet. This says it has a ‘gravity sensor’ so hoping this would mean this could provide similar to the Tesco Hudl. This tablet says it ‘supports gps’. Does this mean it has it internally?

Thanks

Mooneyboy

dirkdj

28th Feb 2019, 05:25

I have the Huawei 8" Mediapad and run Skydemon. The internal GPS works fine but I mostly used the Bluetooth GNS2000 external receiver. The Mediapad has exceptional screen quality. Highly recommended.

Prangster

28th Feb 2019, 17:56

Jesus have non of you lot heard a things called maps compasses and wizz wheels

Jan Olieslagers

28th Feb 2019, 19:39

@Prangster: What's that in English, please?

Maoraigh1

28th Feb 2019, 20:06

"Jesus have non of you lot heard a things called maps compasses and wizz wheels"
Airspace Avoid has the circles already shown. Using compasses to draw circles damages the screen.

Mooneyboy

1st Mar 2019, 09:51

‘Wizz wheels’ is that the new second hand car dealership owned by Wizzair??

mothminor

1st Mar 2019, 11:58

Jesus have non of you lot heard a things called maps compasses and wizz wheels

I don`t think such things are taught these days.
I have to admit though, flying close to controlled airspace in poor visibility is hard work and I`m becoming tempted to take the easy way out.

dirkdj

1st Mar 2019, 12:54

One infringement could cost you more than 10 years of Skydemon use and many tablets.

Maoraigh1

5th Mar 2019, 19:10

Copied from the newspaper in the "Don't Get Lost" thread. £7000+ fine.
"Despite his aircraft being equipped with GPS mapping, he chose to rely instead on the more traditional method of navigation using a paper chart and visual reference points. At some point he lost awareness of his position and entered Luton Airport’s controlled airspace twice as he tried to establish his location."

Mooneyboy

6th Mar 2019, 06:14

I believe if there is a tool out there to help then why not use it but don’t 100% rely on it.

What I did like about SkyDemon was the ability to print out a flight plan with magnetic headings etc. So if there is an issue with your tablet for example battery runs out, freezes, you loose GPS signal ( which I’ve had numerous times in the eastern Mediterranean) then either you get your phone out which has the gps ability or you revert back to you old school map.

Regarding using solely maps for navigation how many of us have been convinced we know where we are and then realise something doesn’t quite tie up. Look at the map and there isn’t enough detail or have made an error in the planning stage.

In a commercial airliner there is always redundancy built in. So for one example if one landing gear computer fails there is a second and if that fails manual gear extension.

I fully intend tend to take this approach of redundancy available for when I’m navigating in light aircraft. Last thing I would want is a fine or sending a commercial aircraft on a go around due to my infringement.

AndoniP

6th Mar 2019, 08:52

Jan Olieslagers

6th Mar 2019, 16:07

You can say that again.

matthew_gbr

7th Mar 2019, 10:18

I found that a phone is better for skydemon over a tablet, and having the phone mounted at head height against the left window (in my case, by suction mount). I repurposed an old phone (Motorola Moto G) to be dedicated to skydemon. Never leaves my flight bag.
In this configuration and because of its smaller screen size, I find I spend more time looking out and flying and only need to glance at skydemon to verify that I'm track and to adjust course, or to read time/distance to next waypoint. It's small and not obtrusive.
For airport plates, circuit diagrams, flight plan, etc - I print those out for my kneeboard. I could do it with a tablet, but paper is far easier to access and an insurance against any technical failure.

Nige321

8th Mar 2019, 07:53

Be aware that when an iPad overheats and shuts down, it's because the battery thermocouple is complaining.
The fact that Android tablets don't is beacuse they haven't got as much monitoring, not because they're better.
If an iPad closes down it's too hot for ANY tablet...

Hyperdark

10th Mar 2019, 07:14

I have a Nexus 7 and an Ipad Mini, the Nexus is Brighter and small enough to fit on my panel, the Ipad I use on a kneepad which unfortunately means I have to deal with more due overhead glazing
I am at the stage of deciding which way works best for me, they both function well with the software.
I've never had either overheat, but my cockpit is a tad draughty

flyme273

10th Mar 2019, 10:50

I choose Samsung Galaxy itablet 8 inch. Pleased with the product good battery life. Needs a shade to prevent reflections in sunny weather.
Flyme

Discorde

10th Mar 2019, 19:34

The Galaxy Tab has an 'Outdoor mode' (Settings -> Display -> Brightness) available to increase screen brightness. Works well with SkyDemon.

Edward Teach

17th Mar 2019, 16:22

If an iPad closes down it's too hot for ANY tablet...

I don't agree with this.

I've had overheating problems on just about every Apple device I've owned (iPad 2, iPad Mini, iPad Pro x3). I've NEVER experienced any overheat problems on any Android device I've ever owned (too many to list -Currently on a OnePlus6T, Galaxy Tab S2 8 and Galaxy Tab Pro S).

Nige321

17th Mar 2019, 17:00

I don't agree with this.

I've had overheating problems on just about every Apple device I've owned (iPad 2, iPad Mini, iPad Pro x3). I've NEVER experienced any overheat problems on any Android device I've ever owned (too many to list -Currently on a OnePlus6T, Galaxy Tab S2 8 and Galaxy Tab Pro S).

You are missing my point. The Android kit WILL be overheating, it’s just the OS doesn’t care...Because Android has to look after so many flavours of harware, it doesn’t have the deep hardware monitoring that Apples tightly integrated eco system has. Android simply doesn’t care much what hardware it’s sitting on, or if it’s frying to death in a hot cockpit. It may still work, but the heat won’t be doing it any good... Apples heat monitoring might be conservative, but it’s there for a good reason...

Jan Olieslagers

17th Mar 2019, 17:58

Prop swinger

17th Mar 2019, 18:46

Standard Apple reasoning.

"It's not a bug, it's a feature."

Nige321

17th Mar 2019, 18:51

I should think that, if the Android machine _really_ overheats, something bad would happen to it. Edward tells us this has not occurred. So either the iOS things need more protection from overheating than Android stuff, or the protection is far out on the safe side. It must be said this might favour the device's long life - but who cares, in an apparatus that's not meant to last more than five years anyway?

Quite right, it may well fail, but not necessarily the first time it gets very hot.
Can you guarantee it will last the full five years?
And what if it finally falls over at the wrong moment...
My worry is always what damage the heat is doing to those big flat LiPo cells...
Some cheap Android devices may not have ANY thermal protection read by the OS.

iOS devices tend to run cooler than Android, but their protection systems are built with very conservative limits.
Think of it as a feature, not a fault...

Nige321

17th Mar 2019, 18:52

Standard Apple reasoning.

"It's not a bug, it's a feature."

Correct, it's a feature. It's called thermal protection...:ugh:

Jan Olieslagers

17th Mar 2019, 19:01

It is a nice discussion, thanks for that!

Can you guarantee it will last the full five years? Of course I cannot, and nobody can. For no kind of device, least of all the new-fangled "Hai-Tek"

And what if it finally falls over at the wrong moment... That's an easy one: switch to plan B, all of us have a plan B at hand; some even have plan C and plan D. Great!

My worry is always what damage the heat is doing to those big flat LiPo cells...
Some cheap Android devices may not have ANY thermal protection read by the OS.

That is the right kind of concern. But even mid-quality LiPo's have all kind of protection built into themselves. It should not be a concern of the host device. Beware, though, of low-cost so-called high performance Lithium batteries; especially from certain low-price sources/countries.

Nige321

17th Mar 2019, 19:10

But even mid-quality LiPo's have all kind of protection built into themselves. It should not be a concern of the host device. Beware, though, of low-cost so-called high performance Lithium batteries; especially from certain low-price sources/countries.

Errr... You hope!!

Jan Olieslagers

17th Mar 2019, 19:14

Negative: I know. But your definition of "mid-quality" may differ from mine, of course. Lack of certification of them batteries, perhaps. I totally agree that only a fool will install batteries from Ebay, Banggood &c in anything carried aloft.

Prop swinger

18th Mar 2019, 07:07

Correct, it's a feature. It's called thermal protection...:ugh:. . . covering up poor design.

In their quest for form over function they built a product with inadequate ventilation/cooling & try to cover up by shutting it down. If anyone complains, they're told "they're using it wrong."

I can do 4 or 5 hour flights with my device plugged in & charging, with the screen turned up to maximum brightness & it barely gets warm.

Nige321

18th Mar 2019, 08:48

. . . covering up poor design.

In their quest for form over function they built a product with inadequate ventilation/cooling & try to cover up by shutting it down. If anyone complains, they're told "they're using it wrong."

I can do 4 or 5 hour flights with my device plugged in & charging, with the screen turned up to maximum brightness & it barely gets warm.

Not really, Apple are renown for good thermal management in both their prtable and desktop devices.
If your Android is 'barely warm' then it isn't being fried in a greenhouse cockpit.
As I said, it's down to thermal risk management - Apple play it safe, it's easier for them to do it, whereas the Android market has its usual fragmentation problem.

Ask yourself why really there's only two players in the commercial and military EFB market.
iOS and Windows.
ie. USAF use 21,000 iPads. Delta use 10,000 Surfaces.
You won't find many Android tablets amongst the major players.
Two main reasons, security and, yes, thermal control...

Edward Teach

18th Mar 2019, 10:37

Nige321

18th Mar 2019, 10:44

Exactly this.

Security is the ONLY reason. It has nothing to do with thermal management. As above.

It has a lot to do with thermal management or rather lack of it in Android tablets...
Still, if that's what you want to believe and trust your nav to, go ahead...

jaycee46

22nd Mar 2019, 16:41

Going back to the subject, rather than a iOS / Android willy waving contest.

I have to confess that, although I've considered one, I have never used an android device with SD as I'm sure, at the time I subscribed to SD, it was a 'lesser version' available on Android. It may have changed now, so happy to be corrected on that one!

I'm currently using my wife's old Ipad 2 cellular, which must be getting on for seven or eight years old, and it works fine - haven't experienced any overheating issues. Previously, I used an Ipad Mini with a Garmin Glo GPS, and it was the Glo which kept quitting due to overheating, as it usually sat on the coaming in full view of the sun. Popping it out of the sun for a couple of minutes revived it, though, and I found it worked just as well sitting on the back seat.

My point is - eventually - that there are loads of second hand ipad 2's about on online auction sites, which will be the same kind of money as a new Android tablet.

ChickenHouse

25th Mar 2019, 21:02

I also vote for either a low-end iPad or second hand. There is not much sense in saving money with regards to flying on that level. C‘mon, we talk of investing the equivalent of two hours of flight.

Btw, after ForeFlight started offering AirMillion charts from today on, Skydemon turns now 95 percent dead for me. I was using Skydemon along ForeFlight for a couple of month, to compare and be ready to jump on the next train. I really like the more professional feel of ForeFlight and suspect this will even improve under Boeing supervision. Skydemons clear VFR charts compared to FF ugly homebrew kept me until today. As of today, for me SD only serves to check graphical Notam, once that is available in FF I am 100 percent out.

Another reason to choose iOS: staying ahead of innovation progress.

vfr-uk

16th Jul 2019, 11:18

This thread has been very useful...

I’m an Apple person of at least a decade, with many workstations, laptops, iPads and iPhones in the house.

But I wanted a dedicated device bigger than my iPhone 8 for flying, and none of my current ipads have GPS. My default would be an iPad but frankly I just think the prices are getting crazy and resent having to get a cellular one to use gps. I thought about a Bluetooth gps unit like Garmin Glo, which I could have used with a full size recent iPad or very old mini 1. But that means more devices to charge and remember.
I’d been watching a few iPad mini 3&4 on eBay but they still go for £250+ with no warranty and no idea of their past lives. £500+ new seems a waste for something I want to live in my flightbag and not have too many apps on. In fact I don’t want the temptation of all my usual Apps.

Im not that familiar with Android (used one device briefly years ago), but ultimately decided it would be worth keeping an open mind and trying it - so based on some comments on this forum and others, plumped for a Huawei M3 lite (8 inch) which was reduced to £140 new and has GPS, good screen and battery life.

Not used it in the air yet but first impressions are encouraging. Mostly I’m just getting used to Android to try and get as familiar as possible and learn how to shut everything off I don’t need and make sure I can move around it. Skydemon itself seems pretty good, the biggest thing that hits you initially is that it refreshes significantly slower - panning around in planning is much less smooth than on Ios (phone and ipad) , not sure if this is device or code or bit of both. Also I’d prefer if aircraft and waypoints would just stay in sync between devices, but that’s not an Android/iOS thing.

The rest will report back as I go. I’ll have the iPhone on a ram sucker mount and the m3 on my knee board (ordered a simple silicone case and used two strips of Velcro to hold to the interior knee board so can still close lid and use paper - for now).

No idea what the Android equivalent to iOS location services ‘always’ is. Any tips for that and any other Android things would be much appreciated!

Hope to fly with it this week so will add some more comments down the line.

rb14

17th Jul 2019, 17:10

A bit late to all this. I've just finished my PPL and wanted to share my experience in this regard. The Flying School that saw me through my training has many planes, each of which has a dedicated, charged iPad. On a cross-country recently, the iPad overheated mid-flight and shut down. It was a very hot day and had been lying on the seat. Trouble is, this had also been running PilotAware. So, suddenly and WITHOUT WARNING, that key source of information was lost. Fortunately, my personal Android tablet (Samsung), positioned right alongside, carried on doing its thing. My Android phone, on a suction thing in the windscreen, carried on doing its thing. I was actually navigating using a CAA chart with the route plotted, but I am glad I wasn't reliant on the iPad.

When I landed back at base and reported the issue with the iPad, I was told they'd seen this issue, albeit rarely, on other iPads on the fleet.

BoeingBoy

17th Jul 2019, 18:09

I started out with a Tesco Hudl 2 which has performed faultlessly. Sadly it's a little slow now but It has built in accelerometers so the 'instrument apps' available on Google Play to replicate DG and AI and navaids are useful back ups in the event of everything failing in flight.

I went on to buy the Lenovo Tab 4 (8") which has been fine. Both tablets run SD faultlessly although the Lenovo seems to have an issue with Sky Echo's WiFi signal in that it tends to drop reception on warmer days. I'm not sure if that's the tablet or the SE though.
The Lenovo is still widely available and you can still pick up some sealed 'as new' Hudl's on Ebay for less than £100.

Gertrude the Wombat

17th Jul 2019, 19:07

could at least get you through a cloud break in a full instrument failure
What is a "full instrument failure"?

If you're contemplating a cloud break you're in an IFR certified machine, aren't you, so for a "full instrument failure" you have to lose both vacuum and electrics at the same time? Does that ever happen?

vfr-uk

18th Jul 2019, 17:22

Does that ever happen?

Its probably happened to someone and no doubt wasn’t their best day... personally if I lost either system in the a/c in IMC I’d be pretty glad of any backup, especially if it was a full electric failure.

Flew with the Mediapad M3 today. Was generally pretty happy seemed to keep GPS signal even with kneeboard cover over it. Something tells me it’s not quite as refined as iOS version (roads and railways disappeared and needed restarting) but otherwise so far so good.

Mooneyboy

18th Jul 2019, 21:21

I’m still at the moment using my iPhone 8 to run SD as only just started out doing a few NAV trips. It’s great and use a holder on the dash.

Only annoying thing about using a phone for navigation is when your coming up to a crucial turning point near controlled airspace and your map disappears as the Mrs tries to call you!

My plan is to get a refurbed iPad mini 2 or 3 4G so it has GPS ( also think the 1st iPad mini doesn’t software update enough to run SD now) from sites such as musicmagpie, amazon or similar with a year warranty. Use the iPad mini on a knee pad for SD and my iPhone 8 as a Directional Indicator.

The only heading aid on my aircraft is a compass and despite UNOS and calculations my compass turns seem very inaccurate even when straight and level! I remember how annoying I found it to keep slaving the DI on a C150 but realise now how much I took it for granted compared to just having a compass.

Really I want another device to back up my iPhone as still backing up on the old maps.

vihai

19th Jul 2019, 09:50

It has a lot to do with thermal management or rather lack of it in Android tablets...
Still, if that's what you want to believe and trust your nav to, go ahead...

How many schematics of how many Android tablet models did you analize to know they lack thermal measurements and how many tests did you do to confirm the components temperature exceed the datasheet limits before any thermal protection intervenes?

I guess none and none, thus it's just a speculation, isn't it?

I am pretty sure you will be able to find badly designed tablets that have all sorts of issues but you are extending your guess to ALL tablets just because they are non-Apple....

vfr-uk

20th Jul 2019, 06:46

Having now had a week few with an Android (Huawei M3 lite) device alongside iOS, I’d say for £140 it’s pretty good value.

There are definitely a few oddities compared to iOS, but overall it fits the brief of getting a small, new, light, dedicated device that can live in my flightbag.

SkyDemon’s definitely less refined on it - some (very few) menus don’t work ideally or block functionality. The graphics refresh is a bit slower. There’s a small learning curve to setting up and moving around it.

Apart from the menus, there are two things bothering me:
Without WiFi it’s not trivial to share routes between android and iOS.
I was really surprised that Android doesn’t update in the way iOS does. It seems you’re pretty much stuck with the os it came with. For me that means a brand new device with an outdated OS and security updates and no chance to update it. That is really disappointing - had I known that I would probably have stuck to the used iPad route.

cats_five

20th Jul 2019, 07:14

Some more expensive Android devices promise some degree of future updates. Also the cheaper end is often older models on older versions of Android.

Nige321

20th Jul 2019, 14:18

How many schematics of how many Android tablet models did you analize to know they lack thermal measurements and how many tests did you do to confirm the components temperature exceed the datasheet limits before any thermal protection intervenes?

I guess none and none, thus it's just a speculation, isn't it?

I am pretty sure you will be able to find badly designed tablets that have all sorts of issues but you are extending your guess to ALL tablets just because they are non-Apple....

I spent 7 years developing a miltary nano UAV with an Android and iOS GCS.
No need to analise schematics, the available hooks in the respective OS's which point at the various thermocouples on the device in hand tell their own story.

Try reading Apple's hardware notes for more information on their devices.
Try getting the same info out of Samsung for one...

If you weren't quite so unpleasant I'd post some more info...

Maoraigh1

20th Jul 2019, 20:36

The Nexus7 I'm using for this has had a few system updates, from Google. My Android Sony appears to have had none.

Dan Winterland

21st Jul 2019, 04:03

The Apple devices with GPS have a SIM card slot. This because they use AGPS for position initialisation, whereas many Android devices have regular GPS with processors that cope with initialisation without the use of cell-phone signals. I use an iPad at work which doesn't have a SIM card installed, as the company don't provide one. It takes forever to get a GPS lock, if it ever does. For private flying (running Sky Demon), sailing and hiking I use a Samsung Galaxy tab (no SIM) with both GPS and GLONASS. The Android device is far superior in every way, particularly at sea where you need a bright screen.

Grass_Strip_Goat

21st Jul 2019, 14:11

Samsung Galaxy Tab running SkyDemon here linked to a Pilotaware Rosetta in my little XAir. Works really well and gets its GPS data from the Rosetta.

LowNSlow

22nd Jul 2019, 14:17

Mooneyboy the iPad mini 1 still runs SD with no problems. My only problem is remembering to charge the GNS 1000 which provides it with the GPS signal.

beamer

22nd Jul 2019, 18:17

As a bit of a Luddite myself, I still prefer to do things the old fashioned way - map, protractor, ruler etc. However, there is no doubt that SD is an impressive piece of kit which has a place in todays GA environment. All that being said, I see too many pilots spending too much time with 'heads in' rather than 'heads out'. The ideal solution I guess is for the occupant of the left hand or forward seat to fly the aeroplane whilst a colleague alongside or behind looks after SkyDemon - in my day they used to be called navigators !

VictorGolf

23rd Jul 2019, 09:36

I had a ride in my chum's Mazda 6 over the weekend and I was most impressed with the HUD which shows the speed and current speed limits. It was very clear and unobtrusive. Is the technology sufficiently cheap to apply to GA? This might overcome the "looking-in" problem which I find very distracting with SD and Easy VFR.

Loggerheads

23rd Jul 2019, 12:59

What's all this talk of heads in looking at an iPad?

Time heads in is a fraction of that spent reading a chart the old fashioned way. If not you're doing something wrong.

vfr-uk

16th Aug 2019, 21:06

Just as an update, although the M3 lite 8 was good, it was a bit laggy in the display sense. Perfectly OK in flight but moving around the map planning was slightly sluggish compared to an iPad (which I do most planning on anyway). Huawei just released the M5 Lite 8 (2019 model) and I had the chance to return the other one and update. I have to say it’s significantly better and only £60 more at £199, and so I strongly recommend it. It’s small, light, fast, and latest Android. It’s so new I can’t get a screen protector or case yet so just Velcro’d It to my knee board and hope for the best.

If there was an iPad mini at this price new with GPS I’d much prefer that, but since they’re way more expensive I’m happy with the Android one - it can live in my flight bag and be mostly dedicated to flying.

I’m starting to get used to / live with most of the iOS / Android differences. Most annoying so far are printing (AirPrint is so much better and more widespread), backup (iCloud is so good for full iOS device backup) and sharing between devices.

For SkyDemon there’s practically no difference apart from an (arguably) less appealing aesthetic on menus etc. I jump between iOS and Android version most days and no problems.