Flying with personal logbook

[Sam Rutherford]

I've assumed for years that it was a legal obligation until I saw another post on another thread.

Then, just thought that whilst in the army we never had our logbooks with us (if for no other reason than they were great big heavy things).

So, legal requirement or not? Interested to know.

Thanks, Sam.

[hoodie]

Not.

Licence and photo ID - Yes. Logbook, no.

That's true for both FAA and EASA.

Part-NCO states required docs on board for EASA. Don't know the FAA reg OTTOMH.

[Jonzarno]

I have paper logbooks both for my paersonal hours and the aircraft log which I keep at home and two excel spreadsheets that I have created to provide an electronic equivalent which I carry with me on my iPad and which are backed up to the cloud.

Contrary to the experience of others posting on the other thread, I have been asked for both during a ramp check (in France) and thought it easier just to comply - my spreadsheets were accepted - rather than argue about whether I am obliged to carry either.

[Pilot DAR]

Certainly in Canada, there is no requirement to carry a personal logbook. I believe that there is only a requirement to keep one if you are presenting yourself (and the logbook as evidence) for a higher license, or evidence of required recurrent training. An insurer could also ask you for the information, but not during flight! Leave it at home where it's safe, unless there's a specific reason to take it along that day.

[Jan Olieslagers]

It must depend on local rules and laws. Here in BE I was always taught that it is mandatory to carry both pilot's log and the plane's log but expressly not the plane's maintenance log. Frankly, my only way to never forget registering a flight is to do so immediately after landing so I carry it all the way. One of my instructors attached great importance to registering the exact same times in pilot's log AND aeroplane log AND aerodrome log - there must have been a time when the guys in black compared them. Not clear whether they still do today.

[Ebbie 2003]

I have mine in my flight bag - the log is small and I carry it as it has my medical and my flight review in it.

Not a legal requirement to carry it but I suspect that if I separated it from my flying stuff I would probably just lose it, hence always carry it with me.

[Maoraigh1]

I never carry my log books. Licence with medical certificate are all I require. The aircraft requires Permit to Fly/Certificate, Radio Licence, and Insurance Certificate.
There is also a Journey Log, which I hope the aircraft log sheet ( kept on board - showing recent flights) will serve as. These are immediately ramp checkable.
My Log Books and the Aircraft and Engine Logs stay somewhere safe. The aircraft log sheet is taken away and used to fill-in the A & E Logs.
Am I heading for jail?

[megan]

Having your logbook burn in a crash is going to cause some head scratching among the investigators as to experience/recency etc, assuming you don't survive and the book is the only record..Not required to be carried in Oz.

[B2N2]

Produce an acceptable record on request.
Paraphrasing but that’s what it boils down to.
In the US as a student pilot you have to carry your logbook as it contains the required endorsements signed by your instructor authorizing you to conduct the flight you are currently on.
Any other situation, keep it up to date and in a safe place.

[oggers]

If this is a leagal requirement anywhere then someone will be able to cite and reproduce the regulation.

It is not a requirement under ICAO SARPs. It is not a requirement under the FAA. It is not a requirement under EASA.

[meleagertoo]

It seems extraordinary to me how widespread this misapprehension about carrying logbooks is.

Apart from it not being a requirement in Aviation Law which we've all studied, especially the 'documents to be carried' bit, logbooks are far too precious to risk losing. Having a flight bag pinched or simply picking up someone else's by mistake and leaving your's behind is all too possible, and pouf! there's your flying history gone for ever.

[Level Attitude]

One additional point:
EASA require a Licence to be carried whenever exercising that Licence's privileges.
To have privileges, the Licence, Rating, etc (containing the privileges exercised) all need to be valid.
The only way for an LAPL Holder to prove validity of that Licence is to carry their
Personal Log Book with them, along with their LAPL (and Medical)..

[oggers]

One additional point:
EASA require a Licence to be carried whenever exercising that Licence's privileges.
To have privileges, the Licence, Rating, etc (containing the privileges exercised) all need to be valid.
The only way for an LAPL Holder to prove validity of that Licence is to carry their
Personal Log Book with them, along with their LAPL (and Medical)..

Any licence requires currency to remain valid and yet there is no requirement to carry the logbook. Could you explain to this non-LAPL why that particular licence is a special case?

[hoodie]

It isn't.

The rules are laid down pretty clearly (for once) about what needs to be carried, for both USA and Europe. The personal (and aircraft/engine) logbooks are not on either of those lists.

There's no point second-guessing WHY items are or are not on the list since neither the FAA or EASA say why.

Just follow the rules as written down, I say. There's enough gold-plating to be seen from NAAs without pilots deciding to unilaterally apply even more ourselves.

[BillieBob]

Could you explain to this non-LAPL why that particular licence is a special case?As hoodie says, "It isn't" but it is understandable that some should think otherwise. In the case of, for example, a PPL, the expiry date of the class or type rating is included in the licence but, in the case of the LAPL, there is no class or type rating and validity depends upon recent experience, which is only recorded in the logbook. There is no legal requirement to carry the logbook in flight but FCL.045 (c) requires that, "A pilot or student pilot shall, without undue delay, present his/her flight time record for inspection on request by an authorised representative of the competent authority."

[oggers]

Thankyou BiillieBob and hoodie for your answers.

but, in the case of the LAPL, there is no class or type rating and validity depends upon recent experience, which is only recorded in the logbook

Of course the same can be said of any licence or rating. Validity depends on recency. The LAPL is not different then.

"A pilot or student pilot shall, without undue delay, present his/her flight time record for inspection on request by an authorised representative of the competent authority."

Again not specific to LAPL. I guess some people want to interpret "undue delay" as "immediatley to hand". Bottom line is the logbook is not required to be carried and nobody has been able to cite a regulation stating that it does.

[hoodie]

No problem.

I can cite a regulation that says it doesn't, though. 😎 (For which, see above).

[Level Attitude]

Bottom line is the logbook is not required to be carried and nobody has been able to cite a regulation stating that it does.
I agree there is no Regulation that requires the Personal Logbook to be carried on a flight; but I wanted to point out that if an LAPL Holder, or someone Flying to the LAPL privileges contained in another Licence, were asked to prove the validity of their LAPL privileges (on a flying tour of Europe for example) they would not be able to without it; and, at worst, that might result in their not being allowed to complete their trip in a timely manner.

but, in the case of the LAPL, there is no class or type rating and validity depends upon recent experience, which is only recorded in the logbookOf course the same can be said of any licence or rating. Validity depends on recency. The LAPL is not different then.

This is not correct. The LAPL is different.

Take flying an SEP(Land) for example:

An ATPL, CPL or PPL will contain an SEP(L) Rating with a set expiry date. With the exception of the passenger carrying requirements, there are no experience/recency requirements at all to exercising the Rating's privileges within its two year validity. As long as they are within the Rating validity date (marked on the Licence which does have to be carried) they are legal and it is irrelevant how current/good/bad they are.

An LAPL for SEP(Land) contains no Rating. It permits, by itself, to fly an SEP(L). The LAPL is valid for life BUT contains experience requirements that must have been met in the two years prior to each and every flight in which the pilot exercises those privileges (Ref: Part-FCL.140.A LAPL(A) - Recency requirements).

[Good Business Sense]

Logbooks are not required to be carried full stop because no regulation requires their carriage. You just need to produce them if asked - same as your driver's license.

Sometimes we are asked (AOC op) by customers for a copy of the pilot's license - besides the fact they wouldn't know one if they fell over it - I usually answer that they would also require a copy of the medical, log books for recency, FTL records, emergency training records, first aid training, fire fighting training, route check, line check, annual tech exam, a copy of the examiners license who did the OPC, etc etc etc etc - to check if the pilot is legal ................ but we don't carry those around either. We get a couple of official CAA flight audits a year - they cover everything - stickers for limitations in the right place etc etc but never pilot log books.

Of course, if you find it more convenient to carry it for one reason or another then fill your boots but it's not a legal requirement.

best

[ChickenHouse]

Logbooks are not required to be carried full stop because no regulation requires their carriage.
Yes, there is no explicit rule to carry your personal logbook, but only a weak sentenced 'present in a reasonable due time'. Now it depends on 'reasonable' and 'due' and that is a matter of situations. If you get an audit at your home base on your processes, you get away by saying thanks for the request and go gather what they asked for.

Experience from field ramp checks is different. If you are standing next to your aircraft, want to board with a fellow and get ramp checked, they will ask you to prove FCL.060 Recent Experience 90 days to document legally being allowed to take the passenger. Some checkers may accept an electronic version of the personal logbook, but many won't. As long as FCL does not explicitly allow electronic versions of logbook (electronic document according to common rules of bookkeeping - no alterations possible, non cheatable, certified as originals, all that complex stuff for electronic databases/programs) I stay paper.

And yes, I have been at ramp checks where they forbid the flight until landings without the passenger had been done in front of the checkers. Pretty nasty if you are on an IFR flight at a slotted airport, so I decided, even after carrying is not a legal requirement at first glance, to always have it ready to show in paper. Paper is something an ordinary ramp check agent is able to understand, not sure this is valid for electronic versions. Yes, I do keep an electronic copy for convenience and by treating the paper version as original I get free of the 'common bookkeeping standards'.

[27/09]

I was taught that because in the event of an accident they could be destroyed your logbook should never go with you when you fly as a pilot and an aircraft's logbooks must never travel in the aircraft they relate to. This might not be enshrined in any CAA/FAA rules but it sure makes sense to me.

By all means take copies if you must, but the originals stay at home. There is nothing in the rules I operate to that require a logbook to be carried.

[oggers]

I agree there is no Regulation that requires the Personal Logbook to be carried on a flight; but I wanted to point out that if an LAPL Holder, or someone Flying to the LAPL privileges contained in another Licence, were asked to prove the validity of their LAPL privileges (on a flying tour of Europe for example) they would not be able to without it

The LAPL is different.

Take flying an SEP(Land) for example:

An ATPL, CPL or PPL will contain an SEP(L) Rating with a set expiry date. With the exception of the passenger carrying requirements, there are no experience/recency requirements at all to exercising the Rating's privileges within its two year validity. As long as they are within the Rating validity date (marked on the Licence which does have to be carried) they are legal and it is irrelevant how current/good/bad they are.

An LAPL for SEP(Land) contains no Rating. It permits, by itself, to fly an SEP(L). The LAPL is valid for life BUT contains experience requirements that must have been met in the two years prior to each and every flight in which the pilot exercises those privileges (Ref: Part-FCL.140.A LAPL(A) - Recency requirements)

...and I am pointing out that the other licences you mention do actually have recency requirements, with or without pax. For a start all FAA pilots must do a BFR. Secondly, every IF rated pilot has currency requirements. If this is about showing recency the LAPL is not unique. So what have you not yet mentioned that makes it so?

[oggers]

By all means take copies if you must, but the originals stay at home. There is nothing in the rules I operate to that require a logbook to be carried.

There it is. An answer to the question that is practical, correct, and doesn't invent implied regulations.

[Level Attitude]

If this is about showing recency the LAPL is not unique. So what have you not yet mentioned that makes it so?

My apologies, as LAPL is an EASA Licence I should have said: "An EASA ATPL, EASA CPL or EASA PPL will contain an SEP(L) Rating with a set expiry date....."

LAPL privileges are unique in EASA as, once obtained, they depend solely on meeting the recency requirements (before every flight) to exercise them (plus valid relevant medical of course).

[Mariner9]

Its a real faf for licensing purposes if logbooks are lost these days. The CAA "lost logbook" procedure now requires (amongst other things) 2 interviews (£100+/time), in-between which you need 'proof" from flight club of hours from aircraft rentals. (Someone should tell the CAA not everyone hires).

For that reason, my logbooks now stay at home.

[27/09]

Experience from field ramp checks is different. If you are standing next to your aircraft, want to board with a fellow and get ramp checked, they will ask you to prove FCL.060 Recent Experience 90 days to document legally being allowed to take the passenger. Some checkers may accept an electronic version of the personal logbook, but many won't. As long as FCL does not explicitly allow electronic versions of logbook (electronic document according to common rules of bookkeeping - no alterations possible, non cheatable, certified as originals, all that complex stuff for electronic databases/programs) I stay paper.

And yes, I have been at ramp checks where they forbid the flight until landings without the passenger had been done in front of the checkers. Pretty nasty if you are on an IFR flight at a slotted airport, so I decided, even after carrying is not a legal requirement at first glance, to always have it ready to show in paper. Paper is something an ordinary ramp check agent is able to understand, not sure this is valid for electronic versions. Yes, I do keep an electronic copy for convenience and by treating the paper version as original I get free of the 'common bookkeeping standards'.

I would suggest the person conducting the ramp check was either usurping their authority or was looking for a backhander.

I agree with Good Business Sense