Lion 737 skids off runway

[FL11967]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-lion-air-plane-skids-14007004

[Solenoid]

What a surprise!!

[Eric Janson]

Why is this company still operating?

Their AOC needs to be suspended ASAP imho.

[PerPurumTonantes]

Anyone want to speculate on damage? Write off or repair? If 2 writeoffs then how will insurers react?

[nonsense]

One user wrote in Indonesian: "Thank god all the passengers are safe."

Others reacted with resignation, including one person who said "Lion being Lion again", possibly referring to the airline's recent troubles.

[RoyHudd]

Easy to criticise, particularly with no facts. (poss defective brakes, flaps, slats, hydraulics) Any number of abnormals can affect landing distance adversely.

And unless you have operated in the Indonesian arena, you have no idea of the truly nasty weather that can occur without warning, and often over airfields with pretty basic support.

I'm not making excuses for them, simply pointing out how easy it is to point the finger of blame without any background.

[RVF750]

To echo RoyHudd, if you read the fantastic book about PanAm, Skygods, by Robert Gandt, you'l lrecall that unlike all other domestic US carriers, who had a multitude of navigation beacons and ILS approaches to fly to, PanAm had to fly all over the third world and into horrendous weather. WIth nothing but NDBs often, there were, unfortunately several tragic accidents. Today, we'd be calling for their AOC to be pulled, " Typical PanAm" ,etc. etc. Granted, they didn't have IRS, GPS and modern RNAV1 on their 707s, but the weather is no better nowadays.

Having said that, Lion Air are not known for their skill in handling the aircraft and the Ex pats they employ are also said to be not exactly top of the heap in reputation sometimes. I remain unconvinced of these accusations. I wouldn't fly with them just in case though....

[Big Pistons Forever]

Not to worry, Boeing just announced another rate increase in 737 production. It should just about keep up with Lion Air hull loses.......

[gulliBell]

Another 20m of runway and we wouldn't have heard anything about it. An interesting evacuation, just about every passenger was carrying something off the plane.

The engines look knackered. The NLG is stuffed, MLG probably also stuffed. I reckon it's worth more as parts than to try and fix it.

[Eric Janson]

Perhaps some of you should take a more detailed look at Lion's safety record. The number of runway excursions is shocking.

They've even had 2 over-runs at the same airport in less than 24 hours. There's also the Bali crash where they flew into the sea - that makes for interesting reading.

The stories from people who've worked there show there is zero safety culture - which is true of Indonesia in general. Just look at their record with ferries.

One of the owners is a Politician with a lot of influence - that means he is above the Law in that part of the world.

The JT610 report will be an interesting read as well.

[DaveReidUK]

The engines look knackered. The NLG is stuffed, MLG probably also stuffed. I reckon it's worth more as parts than to try and fix it.

The mains look OK in the photos I've seen, just well bogged down in the soft ground. The same may well be the case for the NLG. Assuming they are OK, you don't scrap an 8-month old aircraft just for the sake of a couple of engines.

[MCDU2]

There was a time when the manufacturer (presumably under pressure from the feds) would say enough is enough and parachute in a new training department.

[Icarus2001]

Another Boeing software problem? :rolleyes:

[Asturias56]

Perhaps some of you should take a more detailed look at Lion's safety record. The number of runway excursions is shocking.

They've even had 2 over-runs at the same airport in less than 24 hours. There's also the Bali crash where they flew into the sea - that makes for interesting reading.

The stories from people who've worked there show there is zero safety culture - which is true of Indonesia in general. Just look at their record with ferries.

One of the owners is a Politician with a lot of influence - that means he is above the Law in that part of the world.

The JT610 report will be an interesting read as well.


yes well - lots of small airports, lots of bad weather and these days lots and lost of flights - there IS a Safety Culture but TBH it's more like the USA or Europe 40 years ago. Better than it was and improving I think.
I can remember Nigerian A/W putting three F-27's off the end of the runway at Enugu in 4 days - similar reasons

One of the prices you pay if you fly in that part of the world - and the roads and ferries are much much worse

[Hogger60]

https://youtu.be/zKsIPtPlcSA

[my salami]

Easy to criticise, particularly with no facts. (poss defective brakes, flaps, slats, hydraulics) Any number of abnormals can affect landing distance adversely.

And unless you have operated in the Indonesian arena, you have no idea of the truly nasty weather that can occur without warning, and often over airfields with pretty basic support.

I'm not making excuses for them, simply pointing out how easy it is to point the finger of blame without any background.

Agreed!
One fact is certain though, the video clearly shows aircraft landed beyond the end of TDZ.

MS

[Eric Janson]

Long landing on a short, wet runway. Predictable results.

Go-around = Loss of 'Face' in this culture.

Garuda 200 in 1997 is an extreme example of this.

[Zeffy]

...the video clearly shows aircraft landed beyond the end of TDZ.


Are the flaps at 15º for the landing? (they appear to be extended at 40º during the evacuation).

Did the engine sound appear NOT to increase during the landing roll?

[sabenaboy]

Are the flaps at 15º for the landing? (they appear to be extended at 40º during the evacuation).

Did the engine sound appear NOT to increase during the landing roll?

I think all your assumptions are correct! :sad:

The back half of the aircraft was still over the runway. Apparently there was no urgency in getting off the plane (See youtube video) Why did they evacuate?? Looks like poor airmanship and decision making all the way to the end to me!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y2rVlkFxDM

[The Ancient Geek]

It makes sense to get as much weight as possible off the wheels before attempting a recovery but I am rather surprised that they did not bring stairs.

[Reluctant Bus Driver]

8200 ft. of concrete. Should have been long enough even for a 737 landing in the touchdown zone unless lots of standing water... Wonder what the winds were.

[sabenaboy]

Wonder what the winds were.
The answer is available in Avherald (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4c447454&opt=0).

[12A]

TOGA switch on a Lion Air plane is used as much as an indicator on a BMW...

[India Four Two]

In the last video, there is a female voice, presumably CC, saying several times "tidak barang" which means "no luggage"

[Boeing_Guy]

I was thinking maybe requires that touchdown be done no more than 1,500 feet from threshold but then it would cause Lion to land short instead of long.

[skianyn vannin]

Probably using the standard config for landing in these parts on a wet runway. Flap 5 and Vref 220 knots :}

[AndoniP]

it certainly looks like they were going a fair old rate and not slowing much once they were on the runway

[SLF3]

SLF: Isn't Flaps 40 part of the evacuation check list (to make it easier to get out through the over wing exit)?

[the_stranger]

yes well - lots of small airports, lots of bad weather and these days lots and lost of flights - there IS a Safety Culture but TBH it's more like the USA or Europe 40 years ago. Better than it was and improving I think.
I can remember Nigerian A/W putting three F-27's off the end of the runway at Enugu in 4 days - similar reasons

One of the prices you pay if you fly in that part of the world - and the roads and ferries are much much worse
Forty years ago, nobody knew better, nowadays we do. They can do better, but choose not to. Can't say a thing about ferries, but don't see the link. We know how to safely operate a 737, even in horrendous weather and no reason they shouldn't either.
The video clearly shows a touchdown far beyond the TD zone, which should have resulted in a go around.
No weather can be blamed for pressing on and causing this incident. And for that, most of not all runway excursions they had last decade.

[WingNut60]

Mach speed landings are de rigeur in Indonesia.
You don't need an ASI - just look out of the window.
And then hanging off the seat belt as they melt the brakes trying to make the first turn off.

Now superimpose the above onto wet runways after landing long.

Garuda seems to have got on top of the problem, generally speaking.
The others? Not so much.

[Old King Coal]

At PNK / WIOO the R15 is supplied with a 3º ILS, with PAPI on the left set at 3º, and also 3 flavours of VOR approach (X,Y,Z) all planned at 3º. The Jeppesen airport plate states the published LDA for the R15 ILS is 1,983m (with a total runway length of 2,250m and 45m wide). There's also a note 1 (on the Jepp plate) for R15/R33 that states: "Runway slippery during and shortly after rain".

Within the last 8½ years there have been 2 previous overruns there, i.e. prior to this, both involving B737-400's, one of which was also Lion Air (so Lion Air have now overrun there twice).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supadio_International_Airport#Accidents_and_incidents

[gulliBell]

I've seen Indonesian pilots fail their annual simulator check yet they're back on the roster the following week without any additional simulator training....if by some magical stroke of the pen....that's just the way things work in Indonesia.

[WingNut60]

......There's also a note 1 (on the Jepp plate) for R15/R33 that states: "Runway slippery during and shortly after rain".


Of which they get their fair share.
It's been quite a while since I was last in Pontianak but I do remember that the runway surface was a bit whoop-di-doo at that time.
And that doesn't help, but they MAY have done something about that.