View Full Version : UK airports inability to deal with snow
BRS closed pretty much constantly from 2000z last night until much later today.
LPL, MAN and BFS closed last week for a good 2-3+ hrs at times due to snow clearance.
Yet we all fly into airports around the continent that manage to stay open with a mix of chemical de-icing and snow clearance procedures that only take 30mins or less.
When are we going to accept that snow actually happens and we need to prepare for it?
Asturias56
1st Feb 2019, 10:25
Simple economics - it's not worth spending a few hundred thousand dollars on the kit , its maintenance and training the operators for something that happens maybe once every 3-5 years and only lasts a day or so
If you live in Russia, Canada or Norway you have to have the kit - in much of the world it's just not worthwhile...............
Rated De
1st Feb 2019, 10:27
BRS closed pretty much constantly from 2000z last night until much later today.
LPL, MAN and BFS closed last week for a good 2-3+ hrs at times due to snow clearance.
Yet we all fly into airports around the continent that manage to stay open with a mix of chemical de-icing and snow clearance procedures that only take 30mins or less.
When are we going to accept that snow actually happens and we need to prepare for it?
It all depends on incentive.
Now that the airport is comfortably in private hands rest assured they have done the numbers.
Sunk capital into expensive equipment can't be justified when, on probability the number of days in any given year the airport is affected is below a given threshold.
Much better improving the revenue mix with more shops and car parks. As they say money for nuthin'
Thus as a monopolistic airport owner, they are all rather chuffed that the 'externality' is borne by the poor old taxpayer that built the asset in the first place. The politicians who sold the public assets have long ago spent the money and comfortably retired on the back of the same taxpayer.
Been going on a while and nothing changes...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/Heathrow-will-always-struggle-with-snow-airport-admits/
TelsBoy
1st Feb 2019, 10:39
I wondered when this rant would come up.
Put simply, other places in the world get much more snow on a more regular basis, so it makes more financial sense for them to invest in posh expensive snow-clearing equipment to continue normal operations. Here in the UK such events are pretty rare and as such there isn't the business case to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on snow clearers that sit unused for 11 months of the year rotting away with flat batteries and siezed engines and driveshafts and de-icing fluid that goes off because its not been used and is therefore unusable (did you know that? De-icer fluid has a shelf life? Thought not.), which then all costs a hell of a lot of money to put right again... It's actually financial sense to accept that for a very short period of time things will be disrupted but then the world carries on as normal after said short period of disruption has passed.
As for Heathrow, it will always struggle, because it is at capacity. Any small thing will thus completely stuff everything up.
But hey, without understanding all this it's much easier to have a good old rant on PPRuNE. Hope you feel better now.
jimjim1
1st Feb 2019, 10:51
Maybe it's because it does not snow often enough to make the needed investment worthwhile?
It seems to snow less that it did a few decades ago.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/12/often-does-snow-fall-uk-getting-rarer/
Images originated from Met office. The paper had a 3 image gif. I have extracted the individual frames and also attached the gif below.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1160x699/uksnow_61_90_f0c0fd43383c89e2d0acf8931f5cf4a7fdb6ef61.png
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1160x701/uksnow_71_00_3fee192703cab1a6757d22b6d52597ae97e515e1.png
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1160x699/uksnow_81_10_909fd1c9320c182f5c37bd3b05348348588a280f.png
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/618x770/snow_85bb3240d03b8af919c3d465842744b0e3438bde.gif
Less snow that 20-30 years ago, who'd of thought it. Looks like us young generation do actually have it better.
So money on drone defenses is more useful than money on snow defenses.
I do appreciate the irony of Brits skiing holidays being cancelled or delayed due to snow too!
Out Of Trim
1st Feb 2019, 11:19
Heathrow and Gatwick have plenty of snow clearing kit already. Not sure about the smaller airports!
Heathrow and Gatwick have plenty of snow clearing kit already. Not sure about the smaller airports!
When I was stuck at Heathrow in December 2018 I understood the reason was health and safety on the ramp! The certainly wasn't any damn snow.
Less Hair
1st Feb 2019, 11:48
It boils down to costs. It's cheaper to face some hours of chaos than having the full kit and trained staff ready 24/7.
Meester proach
1st Feb 2019, 11:53
[QUOTE=TelsBoy;10377264]I wondered when this rant would come up.
Put simply, other places in the world get much more snow on a more regular basis, so it makes more financial sense for them to invest in posh expensive snow-clearing equipment to continue normal operations. Here in the UK such events are pretty rare and as such there isn't the business case to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on snow clearers that sit unused for 11 months of the year rotting away with flat batteries and siezed engines and driveshafts and de-icing fluid that goes off because its not been used and is therefore unusable (did you know that? De-icer fluid has a shelf life? Thought not.), which then all costs a hell of a lot of money to put right again... It's actually financial sense to accept that for a very short period of time things will be disrupted but then the world carries on as normal after said short period of disruption has passed.
As for Heathrow, it will always struggle, because it is at capacity. Any small thing will thus completely stuff everything up.
But hey, without understanding all this it's much easier to have a good old rant on PPRuNE. Hope you feel better now.[/QUOTE
They seem to have applied the same criteria to drones....
Bit of a lazy attitude I feel ? How much does this cost the airlines and I’m sure you’d feel more incentive if it was your holiday delayed or ruined.
TelsBoy
1st Feb 2019, 13:04
Meester proach (cracking username!)
Sorry if I came across badly. As said elsewhere it all boils down to cost sadly. It's not lazy, it is simply a balance (as with everything) between cost and benefit. Drones was simply ignorance I believe, whereas winter ops is different. Believe me I've been there (with screaming toddlers) when my holiday's been delayed but nothing can be done!
Asturias56
1st Feb 2019, 13:12
"I’m sure you’d feel more incentive if it was your holiday delayed or ruined"
I wouldn't be happy but I wouldn't be surprised either. When I travel on business or pleasure I think about the weather, public holidays, strikes etc - if i MUST be somewhere on a specific date I add in some extra hours or days - and that applies to cars/trains/planes
It's amazing so much of the ssytem works the way it does - but we've come to expect perfection every time, all the time - and that is ... unlikely I'm afraid
Out Of Trim
1st Feb 2019, 13:18
When I was stuck at Heathrow in December 2018 I understood the reason was health and safety on the ramp! The certainly wasn't any damn snow.
I wasn't there.. But, as someone that has suffered a broken leg slipping on ice whilst working on the ramp at Gatwick; maybe they had a good reason to halt operations. There was no damn snow then either! :*
Scrotchidson
1st Feb 2019, 13:54
Airports in recents years have spent millions on snow clearing equipment etc but you can have all the equipment in the World but ultimately you cannot operate a runway when it continues to snow heavily. You also need to appreciate the people & training that is required to operate the machinery and the fact you cannot have staff trained up by standing by all year long in case it snows. In other Countries it snows for months hence the investment in personnel is worth while but in the UK the guys and girls operating the equipment will be drafted in from other departments across the Airport.
Also, airlines can take their share of the blame when they don't "spend enough money" on their de-icing contracts and can't run their own schedule based on the number of rigs they pay for...
Some airlines rightfully cut down their schedule based on a forecast even if the snow doesn't arrive because its absolute mayhem in terminals when flights get cancelled on the day. Last winter one airline got that wrong and cancelled their schedule on the day of the snow event despite the fact we got the runway open and was available throughout the whole day. You can imagine the chaos in the terminal and on aircraft that had already boarded their flights. That hadn't nothing to do with the airport.
NONE of us are so important that we have to defy the weather and travel on time every time. Get real. People get a slight delay and they just whinge. In the end most regulars have iPads and laptops full of things to keep them busy or amused -and I say that as someone whose flight back to BRS is cancelled and there’s not another planned for at least 24hrs.
Ancient Mariner
1st Feb 2019, 15:17
NONE of us are so important that we have to defy the weather and travel on time every time. Get real. People get a slight delay and they just whinge. In the end most regulars have iPads and laptops full of things to keep them busy or amused -and I say that as someone whose flight back to BRS is cancelled and there’s not another planned for at least 24hrs.
Not my sentiment when our flight from Frankfurt to Hong Kong was delayed due winter weather, we lost our connecting flight to Manila, therefore the day's last flight to Busuanga. Had to find hotel in Manila for party of eleven, then the same number of new air tickets, lost one prepaid day at the resort.
Travel insurance is a good thing.
Per
dsc810
1st Feb 2019, 15:58
When are we going to accept that snow actually happens and we need to prepare for it?
We being an island have a maritime climate whereas the continent has continental type climate.
This means our snow is wetter and heavier than the snow falling on the continent which is much drier and lighter.
As a result:
You find the ski resorts are on the continent not the the UK as light powder type dry snow is easier and more pleasant to ski in while heavy clogs of mush wet snow that we get in the UK is not.
Added to which the dryness of the atmosphere makes it less unpleasant to humans, so - 20C in Austria "feels" not as bad as -5C in the damp wet UK
Light dry snow is easier to clear and to snow-blow away - unlike the snow in the UK.
We have to snowplough it off the roads and runways etc - that takes a lot of time and effort/energy to move it.
Added to which if you don't move the wet UK snow off roads it is then compacted down and freezes into sheet ice which is now much more difficult to move and more difficult to gain traction over. Hence why our roads become a nightmare in snow.
It is literally a different type of snow....
Ventti
1st Feb 2019, 16:13
This morning in Helsinki, from stop at the deicing stand to the moment the Embraer 190 was moving again took 3,5 minutes. There were four trucks operating two for the wings and two for the tail.In my opinion that was pretty effective...
But yes, HEL has to have this capability, no question about it.
Startledgrapefruit
1st Feb 2019, 16:26
If you have one runway and it's snowing you have to "close" it as you can't land aircraft on it while it's blocked
Passengers / media just react to "runway closed"
While in reality it's a team of fire men working hard to clear tons of frozen water from area 45m x1600m in conditions 95% of people being critical of them would not step foot in
Pilot DAR
1st Feb 2019, 16:31
It is literally a different type of snow....
It is said that the Inuit people of the Canadian arctic have seven different words for the different types of snow. Yup, 'makes sense to me! I have literally spent more money on snow clearing/grass cutting equipment for my home runway, than either of my three planes cost me. Snow clearing cost is an investment you can choose to make or not, based upon your sense of whether you need to fly when it's snowy or not, and your guess as to how often there will be enough snow to need to clear. Three winters ago, I only cleared snow three times all winter, this winter, very different!
Airport operators will serve the needs of the users of the airport, who will have to pay for those services. If you want the runways always clear, it can be done - for a cost! But a part of that cost is capital equipment, which will just sit and cost money if not used, so it's a business case as to whether it's worth the cost, if heavy snow is infrequent.
Here in Canada, we can expect that once it snows, melting away quickly is unlikely, 'cause it'll stay cold, so better clear it. In other places, even a heavy snowfall will likely met away in a day or so, so its a big cost to clear it early, knowing that it will melt away anyway. That kind of snow, as mentioned, will be wet and heavy = extra work to clear. The very cold not likely to melt away soon snow is light and fluffy, and easy to snowblow away - once you buy the snowblower!
Capt Scribble
1st Feb 2019, 16:46
It is often drifting snow on the ramp that causes the problems. Its relatively easy to drive a formation of sweepers down the runway but clearing around all the parked aircraft is a different matter. At BRS where there are no airbridges, the pax will always have to walk some distance and all those routes need to be cleared. Today, I was sent home, last year it took 3hrs from requesting deicing until ready to go. Frustration all round, unfortunately no simple solution.
bucoops
1st Feb 2019, 18:49
Not just here. First time I flew into PHL we were one of the last ones in before it closed for several days. Yes it was a big dump of snow but on a part of the world much more used to it than us and it still had them closed for nearly a week.
caaardiff
1st Feb 2019, 19:01
BRS closed pretty much constantly from 2000z last night until much later today.
LPL, MAN and BFS closed last week for a good 2-3+ hrs at times due to snow clearance.
Yet we all fly into airports around the continent that manage to stay open with a mix of chemical de-icing and snow clearance procedures that only take 30mins or less.
When are we going to accept that snow actually happens and we need to prepare for it?
From what I hear BRS pretty much had snow non stop most of the morning into lunchtime, maybe even later. That coupled with having adequate equipment for our climate and how often we get snow, it's pretty much a losing battle when the snow is still coming. Don't forget BRS is on top of a hill and is an Airfield originally desgined as a bad weather training airfield.
BRS reopened in the early evening but the Airlines had already cancelled pretty much every flight for the rest of the day, with the exception of EI and the evening inbound KLM.
Questions are now being asked by the public why they couldn't operate some flights from other Airports. There were EZY aircraft in BHX and CWL. KLM did operate the AM flight from CWL and BM had an aircraft in SOU and BHX. Frustrations were probably a lot high because of the increased rugby travellers.
When are we going to accept that snow actually happens and we need to prepare for it?
Yes, it does, probably once a year though.
Skyjob
1st Feb 2019, 19:56
Maybe it's time next time runway works are carried out to install subterranean heat sources, keeping the ground/runway just warm enough to keep melting the snow on the rare occasions it does fall in theUK.
Small investment, lasting results, no training required, no machines to maintain and crews to train
tubby linton
1st Feb 2019, 19:59
Keflavik last year, heavy snow shower but the runway was open and usable in fifteen minutes after the last snowflake.
A mix of:
1. Denial. Color pictures about the snow statistics back in 1770 while snow disruption happened in the UK this year, the previous year, the year before that and the year before that. It will happen in 2020 too. What will you do if the UK gets the next vortex thingy? Close the country for weeks?
2. Mistification of snow. Special wet snow in the UK vs. dry snow in Europe? BS. You get both everywhere (and the other 20 types). You need to be ready to clean both. Guys blabbing in he telly about the end of the world with hardly flakes coming down around them? Come on. Should teach people what a winter tyre is and to have a blanket/shovel/food and a full fuel tank at all times if you don't want to be the Florida gators frozen in the swamp (thinking WTF??).
3. Different scales. Most of the times your "heavy" snow is not really heavy snow. Your "freezing" weather is not very freezing weather. Your feared snow "accumulation" happens in 2 mins in Helsinki. Yes, it's possible to operate airports in heavy snow (for even days/weeks of it), see Finland, Scandinavia, the Baltic states, Russia etc. Basically any place on Earth spending on it, planning with it and training staff to deal with it.
4. Economic excuses. Yes, ploughs, de-icing rigs and liguid are bloody expensive. As does landing lights, ILS, terminals, security staff etc but you still pay those to ensure safe and continuous operation. Airlines know that is expensive but they are willing to pay for them to avoid disruptions as they do in all corners of the continent. Buy/operate them and charge it on the airlines for God sake as does every airport in Europe. They will be happy to pay for it if they see something on return instead of the repeated meltdowns. A LOT better than shelling out the 250 EUR to each pax (if you fly to a country where the judge does not accept 1 cm of snow as the reason for an airport closure).
5. Training of staff. Can't do effective snow cleaning/de-icing ops with people who need winter preparation memos like "it will be cold", "you will need to wear gloves and warm clothing" etc. Send them for a training in Oslo, Stockholm or Helsinki to get the grasp of the task and how to deal with it. Not only the de-icers and the plough drivers. You get the news of fuelers refusing to get to the apron in 2mm of snow and you don't know whether you should laugh or cry.
Sailvi767
1st Feb 2019, 23:27
Keflavik last year, heavy snow shower but the runway was open and usable in fifteen minutes after the last snowflake.
Keflavik as about enough storage and deice capacity to cover 15 minutes of departures from London Heathrow!
Not just here. First time I flew into PHL we were one of the last ones in before it closed for several days. Yes it was a big dump of snow but on a part of the world much more used to it than us and it still had them closed for nearly a week.
PHL used to be used as leverage by the unions during labor disputes that had nothing to do with the airport itself. They are very capable of dealing with major snow events if they feel like it, provided that the Eagles are not playing.
fox niner
2nd Feb 2019, 05:40
Kilimanjaro is located near the equator. Yet they used to have snowploughs an de-icing equipment. It came with the “standard USSR airport equipment” in the 1970s, when Tanzania had very friendly relations with Moscow.
All equipment was cannibalised in about 1 year.
farefield
2nd Feb 2019, 06:21
TBSC said "Training of staff. Can't do effective snow cleaning/de-icing ops with people who need winter preparation memos like "it will be cold", "you will need to wear gloves and warm clothing" etc."
Hit the nail on the head, the 'elf and safety culture is so restrictive, however if you go to some parts of the world and see the blatant disregard for common sense or the rules it makes you cringe.
jimjim1
2nd Feb 2019, 06:48
Less snow that 20-30 years ago, who'd of thought it. Looks like us young generation do actually have it better.
!
I think it's worse:)
I knew there was less snow on the ground from my own experience. I went looking for supporting evidence to post here since my anecdotes are not strong on their own.
I of course cannot recall how many days of snow we had in any year however I have taken part in several different snow-essential activities over the years.
As a child I went sledging at some point every winter it seemed. It would snow and there would be a week of sledging. Then it was not every year or the snow melted very quickly.
After I started driving I went snow driving on local hill roads in the night every year, then not every year, then almost never due to a lack of snow. What fun.
At a relatively late age I started skiing in Scotland, with good snow cover every year. The snow was fickle, sometimes there was snow in the west, sometimes in the east, but there was almost always snow for skiing in the winter. Within a very few years there was almost no reliable snow. I gave up skiing in Scotland.
I moved my skiing to Europe. Tignes in the French alps was open for skiing 365 days a year on the glacier there. Search for [tignes ski 365 jours par an] and click Translate this page. This season the glacier opened as follows:
29/09/2018: opening of the fall skiing season on the Grande Motte glacier
05/05/2019: closing of Tignes' glacier.[1]
That's about seven months. It's not that there is no demand. People love skiing.
A number of years ago (2005 ish) at Tignes a local guide pointed out a huge cablecar intermediate tower that he explained that his grandfather had worked on constructing. He said that the glacier ice had to be dug away to expose the bedrock for the foundations. As he pointed at it, the glacier was 100ft below the base of the pylon. Looking at a webcam image today it looks as if the glacier is quite a bit more than 100ft below the pylon. See first image below.
At Tignes the glacier is now "preserved" by creating snow trapping trenches. This was not necessary previously. See second image below. Again from a live webcam.
There is a lot less snow round here.
[1] https://en.tignes.net/what-to-see-do/skiing/winter-ski-area
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1160x753/tignes_tower_d64e88a29f876d798bf6ad1049ba13f9c44f2e3b.png
Pylon is near centre of frame. When built the base of the pylon was buried in the glacier by a small amount. The entire outcrop was within the ice of the glacier.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1160x753/tignes_furrows_0337912622716d0b71f01cf3701a009ea7a1b9f2.png
A and C
2nd Feb 2019, 06:54
Most UK airports have a “back to black” policy , they don’t have and can’t justify the cost of the equipment to maintain this standard of runway surface.
Go to Scandinavia and you will find snow covered runways with braking action enhanced with hot sand, of course the braking action is degraded but it will not stop you landing and taking off as long as you can meet the performance requirements of your aircraft.
I’m afraid the UK is Elf & Saftey gone mad and applied by people who simply don’t understand winter operations, if Norway applied UK practice there would be no flying from November to March from any airport north of Trondheim.
SMT Member
2nd Feb 2019, 06:56
Hit the nail on the head, the 'elf and safety culture is so restrictive, however if you go to some parts of the world and see the blatant disregard for common sense or the rules it makes you cringe.
Indeed. I used to work for an Australian owned but UK run company, and almost died laughing when they sent out a 'winter preparation pack' to all stations globally. It was comically simple and contained information any 4-year old kid in my country would have known; that winter is cold, snow is slippery and ice even more so. If that's the level of communication you need to get the point across, I'm afraid there's not much hope.
It's also worth mentioning that it's the airports who'll have to finance the equipment, but the airlines who'll be bearing the compensation (EU261) claims. That's hardly an incentive for the airports to do anything about it, and as long as there's a demand for the airport to provide its service, there's not much apart from moaning and bickering the airlines can do about it. Sure, the airport could raise fares to finance the purchases, but that'll result in even louder moaning and bickering. Nothing's quite so short-sighted as airline ground operations; eyes are firmly fixed on the next quarter and money's tighter than a tight thing.
DingerX
2nd Feb 2019, 07:22
The way it works is that the airport uses an event like this to raise its rates, then next year cuts the snow removal capability/deicing fluid, etc. as a cost cutting measure. Repeat as necessary. The economic argument will never be there. Snow is an act of God. For-profit outfits don't do God's work.
DaveReidUK
2nd Feb 2019, 07:37
Interesting range of views, some of which have hit the nail on the head.
When talking about the UK, one only has to remember that pretty well all its airports are in the private sector. At the end of the day, it all comes down to shareholder value and the bottom line.
You don't have to look any further than that. Get used to it.
FlyingStone
2nd Feb 2019, 08:37
UK Elf & Safety is indeed ridiculous at times.
However, it all comes down to money... As airports are privately operated, they are free to choose the limit of what kind of disruption is economically viable, just as the airlines do. How many fail-operational B737NGs operate in Africa or Australia? Probably zero, because it makes exactly zero economical sense to pay a lot of money for the one time a year (or decade) you will need it. Or how many Cat 3B installations are there in those parts of the world?
I really don't see any sense in buying equipment to ensure Scandinavia-style winter readiness in UK, which gets 1cm of snow for 3 days a year.
compton3bravo
2nd Feb 2019, 08:51
Surprised nobody has blamed Brexit yet!
I liked jimjim1s reference to "the fall skiing season " :)
That's how I do it...............
Asturias56
2nd Feb 2019, 09:36
Interesting range of views, some of which have hit the nail on the head.
When talking about the UK, one only has to remember that pretty well all its airports are in the private sector. At the end of the day, it all comes down to shareholder value and the bottom line.
You don't have to look any further than that. Get used to it.
Exactly - you prepare for what you REALLY need - a couple of days disruption every 5 years is not a big issue. There'd be a load of posts about "waste", "corruption", excessive spending", "people paid to sit around for years for something that never happens" etc etc if the UK did bring in Norwegian levels of snow clearance preparation
Timmy Tomkins
2nd Feb 2019, 13:27
Re BRS; it is a matter of investment but also practice. I was based there in the 90s and recall one chaotic day in particular, with a snow mover moving snow from A to B and the next one that rocked up moved it back again; total confusion. Eventually took off bound for ABZ where the snow was much much worse and all the kit was moving in harmony, keeping runway and ramp clear. Relatively normal turn around and back to BRS chaos. So far as I could see much of the kit was the same it was the organisation.
andrasz
2nd Feb 2019, 14:38
It's also worth mentioning that it's the airports who'll have to finance the equipment, but the airlines who'll be bearing the compensation (EU261) claims.
This is the essence of it. While EU261 is well intended from a consumer point of view, it is fundamentally flawed that it puts the blame squarely on the airlines, and does not include service providers (airports, ATC, etc) higher up the food chain. Airports are natural monopolies, no matter whether ownership is public or private, and will only spend money on things they are compeled to do so.
Don’t think you can claim EU261 for weather.
The Airlines are liable for welfare and onward travel costs though.
cossack
2nd Feb 2019, 16:58
There is no financial incentive for UK airport operators to invest in de-icing/snow clearing equipment. If they have passengers stuck in their shopping malls, I mean terminals, they are still making money.
Meeters and greeters are still paying for parking while waiting for delayed pax and the airport is still making money.
Where I work we had 30cm of snow last Monday afternoon/evening. The airport slowed to a crawl but there was always at least one runway available. There were many diversions and cancellations but there were still about 600 movements (50% of normal January day) and yet there were complaints that we should have done better.
They were still scraping compacted snow off the taxiways yesterday after 4 days because temperatures never got above -10C and spent a lot of time around -20C (-30s with the wind chill). Because of the cold, ground crews had to go inside regularly to warm up and arrivals weren't parked for up to a couple of hours because of the extended time needed to service each flight. Inbound flow control was necessary to avoid gridlock. There were up to 30 flights on the ground waiting for gates!
Bad weather is expected here, we have the equipment for it and still it causes disruption.
PerPurumTonantes
2nd Feb 2019, 21:28
Maybe it's time next time runway works are carried out to install subterranean heat sources, keeping the ground/runway just warm enough to keep melting the snow on the rare occasions it does fall in theUK.
Small investment, lasting results, no training required, no machines to maintain and crews to train
https://trid.trb.org/view/1436898
$53m to install and $8,250 for each hour of operation
gatbusdriver
3rd Feb 2019, 06:44
We had an interesting meeting with LGW airfield ops team a few years ago where we asked many questions related to operations in cold weather/snow.
One issue here, and the reason they have a back to black policy, is due to the temperature. When it snows here the temperature is normally around 0 degrees so the state of the snow is always changing, which means by the time you pass a runway contaminant and depth it has changed. To avoid any potential law suit they ensure the runway is clear.
It’s money.
So if snow is not exceptional weather (in the UK it really isn’t) insist the airlines automatically pay delay compensation to those affected.
heathrow 150k (say) passengers a day at EUR 250 each is EUR 37mm a day.
That would change the dynamic.
Skyjob
4th Feb 2019, 18:25
Or make the airports pay who are responsible for keeping the airport open, not its users (airlines).
Then airport money has to be used for either equipment or compensation claims.
Airlines should not be burdened by the airport's lack of capability
Airlines are an informed buyer of a service from an airport. They set the service level agreement. Just like for fuel, baggage handling, food. The passenger has s contract with the airline, not the airport. If the airline hurts, they will get the airport to sort it.
tubby linton
4th Feb 2019, 18:46
Keflavik as about enough storage and deice capacity to cover 15 minutes of departures from London Heathrow!
Not when i was there. Check your facts.
To answer JimJim1 and others.
The UK is in a 'maritime' climate zone and its climate is driven by the Atlantic. The Atlantic affects most of North West Europe but to a lesser extent. The Atlantic has what is known as the Atlantic Multi-decadal Oscillation (AMO). For the last few decades the AMO has been in its 'positive' phase that is the water is warmer than 'normal' there are some indications that it is about to move into its negative phase and everything will cool down. See the diagram below
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x540/slide1_07a02f320fde39bb956b9a364f52eccdccbe7d61.png
While this does not explain all the weather as the cool ocean also affects (and is affected by) atmospheric circulation it does raise (or lower) the chances of precipitation in the winter falling as snow in UK. As it is multi-decadal an entire career can exist in one phase of the AMO. So it is not simple to just 'rely on experience' due to our fleeting existence. Also, linear projections do not work on sine waves, so just because we have worked all the time on the rising side of the sine wave seeing less and less snow, we cannot assume that there will not be a descent back in a few years with more and more snow.