AFPS15 - government decision.

[ForcesPensionSociety]

https://forcespensionsociety.org/2021/12/mccloud-sitrep/

[Lima Juliet]

Bob Viking

I agree that this has been a total cluster, but the calculator is going to be quite complicated (lots of combinations of different circumstances) and will need a lot of Beta testing before going live. I guess the last thing they need to have is a calculator that gives out the wrong figures and opens up a new challenge?

[Common_Sense]

Has anyone had an update on this yet?
I understood that the aspiration was to be starting to resolve the issue by March 2022?

[popeye107]

Has anyone had an update on this yet?
I understood that the aspiration was to be starting to resolve the issue by March 2022?
Have a look at the Forces Pension Society site. There are some good updates on there, I think what you want is there, may need to go back to 1 Dec 21.

[gipsymagpie]

The latest they are allowed to have the solution out is Oct 23. I have no illusion that they will finish the job earlier. Latest update was that the updated calculator publication has been delayed.

[ForcesPensionSociety]

https://forcespensionsociety.org/2022/02/update-on-the-armed-forces-pension-calculator/

[Bob Viking]

As I sit here on my sun lounger I had a random thought. I wondered how much the MOD is paying for a new online pension calculator to work out the post-McCloud benefits for individuals. It seems to be very hard since it is taking an awfully long time which probably means it is awfully expensive.

I realise there are many thousands of affected individuals and many, unique circumstances.

There are people who are able to calculate the benefits manually though. Any well trained accountant could do similar with access to the correct information.

So what if we took a bunch of recent maths graduates and offered them a decent salary to take an individual case load and work the pensions payments out manually?

A recent graduate might think an annual salary of £40,000 is pretty awesome. Every £1,000,000 would get 25 such graduates for a year at a time. They could each handle dozens of cases a day probably.

I’m willing to bet we have invested many millions of £’s into the calculator already. Couldn’t we just save a lot of time and money and even create some well paid jobs to do it mandraulically? We could then actually provide the many thousands of veterans and currently serving individuals who are trying to make life decisions based on their pensions with the correct information to do it?

I’m sure it’s more complicated than I’m making out but I still fail to see why we are waiting years for a calculator when the information and expertise is there to have done it already.

Anyway, back to my book.

BV

[alfred_the_great]

My understanding is that there are several policy questions - across all pension schemes - that are “open”.

I sense that there are no easy answers, and whatever process is chosen will result in some being better off, and others worse off.

[Bob Viking]

I understand that. But on the issue of producing a pension forecast of the various schemes for each individual it’s just a matter of maths. A GCSE student could do that with the correct training.

BV

[artyhug]

Bob I think what Alfred is referring to is how ‘interpreting’ policy one way or another could result in significant savings. Significant enough to ride out the outrage bus!

If that proves so then only when results of every interpretation option are analysed will a decision be made. It reminds me of the FRI3 rollout.

In short the FRI3 offer was have cash if you have an IPP between these dates. The key being the use of IPP.

What ‘they’ forgot was the not insignificant number of SSC commissions who had transferred to PC after the switch to 40/20. They all had a 16 year IPP in the window but not an exit date.

Initial interpretation was off you jog chancers, until the desperate need for aircrew arose which was when the ‘interpretation’ changed.

All in the detail and what you can legally get away with.

it still makes me laugh at how it was genuinely considered moral to ‘interpret’ the definition of IPP but there you go.

Forewarned is forearmed!

[Common_Sense]

Any update on this?

[popeye107]

Any update on this?
its been placed on the back burner until later in the year, more pressing issues like new rank tabs for aviator engineering specialist recruits!
I can see a sense of humour snap at some point and further legal action, probably by the judges, to win compensation for the uncompensated.
It would be a sad fact to know, but how many have died whilst waiting for this to be sorted?

[gipsymagpie]

As I have pointed out previously, they have built in a date of October 2023 before they need to do anything else. They will not do anything before that date - delivering early? it's just not how they operate.

[popeye107]

As I have pointed out previously, they have built in a date of October 2023 before they need to do anything else. They will not do anything before that date - delivering early? it's just not how they operate.
Can you confirm they do actually deliver on time, anytime?🤔😂😂😂

[downsizer]

As I have pointed out previously, they have built in a date of October 2023 before they need to do anything else. They will not do anything before that date - delivering early? it's just not how they operate.

One would like to hope the calculator is released before then!

[cynicalint]

aviator engineering specialist recruits!
Are you sure it is not Aviation Recruit, Specialist Engineer?

[Chauderon]

A lot of replies on LinkedIn to the latest AFPS 15 Remedy (McCloud) Sitrep from the Forces Pension Society. Perhaps like other retired members, I thought the choice would finally be arriving next year, but it's actually receiving a letter in the 18 months starting 1 Oct 23. So the way this has gone to date, I'm expecting the first letter 31 Mar 25 - and then what is the timeline to actually make a choice and for this to be implemented? How do we know this will also not slip to the right, as elements of the remedy have so far?

Is there anybody here who can explain the legal side of this? This was fallout from the 2008 economic crash, with AFPS 15 being announced a few years later. It was clearly illegal at the time for some personnel to stay on AFPS 75 and others to be forced out of the scheme. My question is, this has been found to be illegal initially in court and then at appeal. But is there any legal body overseeing the timeline of the remedy? It's around a decade since AFPS 15 was announced and the proven illegality is still not rectified. Who or what is to stop letters being sent out in the year 2050?

Not just a vent, I'm genuinely interested to know which legal body sanctions waiting for this period of time - when some scheme members are not going to make it to the finish line.

[Asturias56]

"I'm generally interested to know which legal body sanctions waiting for this period of time"

Parliament or the Sec State - if they don't write a timescale into the law or the rules and regs you are stuffed

[Countdown begins]

"I'm generally interested to know which legal body sanctions waiting for this period of time"

Parliament or the Sec State - if they don't write a timescale into the law or the rules and regs you are stuffed

Do you know anything about the pensions case?
Whilst you may be correct about timescales, do you know if there was a timescale? Do you know who the ‘top cover’ the military has in this case?
If you do know could you let the rest of us know?

[Low average]

A lot of people could really use the money that MOD illegally took from them back in 2015 - especially now.

I fear the only way to get them to pay up is a combined legal action of sort. How exactly that could be done would be a good question to answer from any lawyers in the house...

[Chauderon]

A lot of people could really use the money that MOD illegally took from them back in 2015 - especially now.

I fear the only way to get them to pay up is a combined legal action of sort. How exactly that could be done would be a good question to answer from any lawyers in the house...

Exactly, for some years now I've thought "this time next year we'll be millionaires..."; okay not quite Del Boy... but that this would be completed and my family would receive the circa £10K lump plus monthly boost I calculate AFPS 75 would have provided. With current inflation thanks to the same Government that illegally altered the pension scheme in the first place, the restitution is becoming increasingly worthless.

PS thank you for giving service to your country

[Bob Viking]

May I please draw your attention to my post #258 from April 2022?

My idea to provide a human to produce a bespoke calculation for every individual could not only be cheaper but also significantly quicker. If my idea were taken up then every individual could have their forecast ready to go well before October 2023. That way, as soon as the legislation is sorted, the MOD could ask everyone the question and have an answer immediately. Or would I be right in thinking there is no rush for them to dish out extra money to their employees both current and past? So much for ‘people are our most important asset’.

I am now a veteran and for me it is a case of a non PAS AFPS 75 pension plus 7 years of AFPS 15 or a level 26 PAS pension plus 5 months of AFPS 15. Those are two very different kettles of fish and I am very interested to find out if my ‘fag-packet maths’ is correct.

BV

[Countdown begins]

A lot of people could really use the money that MOD illegally took from them back in 2015 - especially now.

I fear the only way to get them to pay up is a combined legal action of sort. How exactly that could be done would be a good question to answer from any lawyers in the house...
Whilst the Armed Forces are just fodder to this government, the Judges are not. If this whole debacle gets churned up I can see them protesting with a much louder voice than the Armed Forces and Fire Brigade unions.
Apart from getting my pension earlier, aged 65 vice 67, I don’t know if I’ll actually be any better off as I was top whack for my rank after 30 years on 05 and same for 5 years on 15. I will jump to solely 05.

[Fortissimo]

I had a chance conversation in the summer with someone from DWP who was working on the McLoud fallout. Apparently they have only identified a handful of people who would be better off on the legacy schemes, though I would still want to know what the calculation was if it was my pension at stake. The complication for implementation is that the individual schemes within the public sector have to be written separately into law, which means the legislation has to be consistent across the schemes and not inadvertently disadvantage anyone.

As for 'top cover', the VSOs have very little say in what happens and can only try to influence the debate. There are people on CDP's team who are directly engaged but, again, they have no executive authority as that all rests with DWP and by extension the Treasury. The (relatively) good news is that the jam today vs jam tomorrow question - the combination of schemes you end up with - has been cast to ensure you get the most amount of jam and that the flexibility on timing of decisions means that you should not lose out in the long run. That said, I don't think there will be compensation for those whose pension income was limited under option A compared with the final option B, and whose quality of life was affected in some way by a reduction in disposable income. The bean-counter argument there will be that the way you use your disposable income is a personal choice.

[Chauderon]

To counter that bean-counter argument as to how you spend your money, I would say it only applies to Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and kind. For the rest of us, not having had access to possibly tens of thousands of pounds for a decade could mean someone renting instead of buying a house, leasing instead of buying a car, children not being supported to university, medical procedures not being completed, etc. The money that people thought they were going to receive as part of their pension would have been for many of us - important for living, and continues to be so as Low average said above. Both the initial AFPS change and the endless remedy are a sad indictment of the treatment of those who have served.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Did we ever get a definitive statement as to interest payments on this money? Highly pertinent now as inflation death spirals away.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

McCloud Remedy Interest Request (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1123968/McCloud_remedy_interest_rate_-_HMT_to_GA.pdf)

This seems to have snuck under the radar - the Treasury have written to the Govt Actuary for formal advice on interest rates. Of note is footnote 2:

The remedy will come into force for the majority of members on 1 October 2023, unless HM Treasury decides to bring it into force earlier for some members, in accordance with section 131(2) of the Act. However, in relation to those schemes subject to Chapter 1 of Part 1 of the Act (‘Chapter 1 schemes’), each member will be informed of their rights in relation to the remedy through their Remediable Service Statement (RSS) which will normally be issued within 18 months of that date. This is expected to be at some point in 2023-2025. HM Treasury consider that, from the date 28 days after their RSS has been issued, it is appropriate for the 8% simple rate to cease since the member will have had their position remedied in law and will have been informed of their rights.

Essentially, expect a solution sometime in 2023-2025 on an individual basis, and you will hopefully get 8% interest against all money owed for the majority of the time.

<Edit to add> also a key point is that it appears to be simple interest instead of compound interest.

[Chauderon]

Good spot. That's effectively a lot of money in an 8% savings account right now (albeit simple interest). Hopefully that spurs some action.

[Common_Sense]

How do we expect the tax situation to work if the service leaver suddenly receives money (pension) above their current income from their new employment? Surely it won’t be taxed at the 2023 months income tax rates as additional income?

[Akrotiri bad boy]

Oh Dear! HMRC will see that as an additional income and tax it accordingly. I suppose it's a situation of cake and eat it, that is salary and pension.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

How do we expect the tax situation to work if the service leaver suddenly receives money (pension) above their current income from their new employment? Surely it won’t be taxed at the 2023 months income tax rates as additional income?

I assume (naively) that because it is clearly identified as money that has been "illegally" withheld, as opposed to a change of policy, that it would be taxable for the years it was supposed to have been paid. Likewise for the pension fund "jump" which would likely exceed the annual threshold, clearly it hasn't been accrued magically in one year - it was always there, just being withheld.

Obviously that would be the right and decent thing, so I think we can all assume the opposite will happen and watch HMRC tax it at the highest rate of interest possible....

[Atlasisrubbish]

AFPS05/ 15 versus 05

I’ve now got all the paperwork and a lump sum in under 21 days. I’ve been lucky.

I’ve also had a rough stab at which is best, and unless I’ve got something really wrong I’m going to be better off on a mix of pensions. Has anyone else had a fag packet go at the sums?

[Lima Juliet]

AFPS05/ 15 versus 05

I’ve now got all the paperwork and a lump sum in under 21 days. I’ve been lucky.

I’ve also had a rough stab at which is best, and unless I’ve got something really wrong I’m going to be better off on a mix of pensions. Has anyone else had a fag packet go at the sums?

Yes, if you are going to 60 with AFPS15 then everyone should be better off with 15 than 05. My reasoning for that is that the final pension (not talking EDP here) is based on 1/47th on 15 across a career average (which is career average since 2015 for most retiring now) and 1/70th of your best 365 days’ pay in your last 3 years. Of course, everyone’s circumstances are different, so definitely do your sums carefully!

[Common_Sense]

Is there anyone that has left service and tried the new calculator to try and understand what they’re owed?

[Bob Viking]

I have. Let’s hope it’s just a beta version. I’d say it still needs work!

BV

[Lima Juliet]

Yep, as BV says, it needs a bit of work and for Reservists it is a retrograde step as it doesn’t seem to do RFPS05 anymore. However, you can adjust the dates a little if you left in the last year or so and still get a fairly good indicator of what you’re likely to get.

[High Average]

Is there anyone that has left service and tried the new calculator to try and understand what they’re owed?

It doesn't work if you have already left as far as I can see. Glasgow wrote to me a few days ago and said that I would receive a letter detailing the amounts with/without the McCloud judgement in the coming months rather than via the calculator

[alfred_the_great]

It’s says at the very beginning it is a calculator for serving personnel…

[kweelo]

From the AFPS:

As you are probably all aware, the enhanced Armed Forces Pension Calculator (https://mod-pc.co.uk/) is now live, and will provide Serving Personnel with an illustration of their pension entitlement, and for those who are in-scope for the AFPS 15 Remedy, a side-by-side comparison of their reformed (AFPS 15) and legacy scheme benefits.

Many of our Veteran members are asking the team if the new version of the calculator will be available for those who already left. Unfortunately, the answer is no, it only operates for serving personnel (as per the previous version of the calculator).

Veterans will need to wait for their Remediable Service Statement (RSS) which will be issued within 18 months from 1 October 2023 – so by 1 April 2025

The initial RSS will not facilitate an election choice unless/until your deferred benefits are due to come into payment. Rather this RSS will simply compare the pension benefits for the remedy period for information purposes only. Thereafter, members with deferred benefits can request one RSS per year if they wish until such time as their pension benefits are payable, at which point they will be requested to make their remedy choice.

[Melchett01]

I have. Let’s hope it’s just a beta version. I’d say it still needs work!

BV

Further to my post on the other thread - finally got a vaguely sensible answer out of the new calculator, but only after I selected ‘No’ to the AVCs question. So at least the result should undershoot what I’m actually owed.

That said it’s still a surprising result in that my lump sum is greater if I revert to the 75 Scheme and my annual pension is greater if I stay as I am on the scheme that kicked in in Apr 15. Slightly surprised as I promoted in 2017 so was hoping that promotion under 75 Scheme terms might be a bit of a boost.

The utter confusion that is MOD pensions continues!

[ForcesPensionSociety]

The AFPS 15 accrual rate is better than that of AFPS 05 but you need to factor in that AFPS 05 has an automatic lump sum whereas AFPS 15 does not. However, if you surrender pension, you can generate a bigger lump sum than that of AFPS 05.

[Chauderon]

Happy McCloud Day!

Hoping the letters arrive nearer today than an unreasonable 18 months from now.

[gipsymagpie]

Happy McCloud Day!

Hoping the letters arrive nearer today than an unreasonable 18 months from now.
Sadly I think we all know what is actually going to happen. Roll on March 2025!

[godsavethequeen]

Has anyone in receipt of their pension received their RSS yet?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Has anyone in receipt of their pension received their RSS yet?
I'm in close Comms with around 10 people waiting for one and it's silence all around so far. I'd expect the above - they'll all drop on last day of mar 25 to kick the can as far as possible!

[kweelo]

Has anyone in receipt of their pension received their RSS yet?

Not in receipt of my pension yet. I've had mine, leave within the next 30 days.

[Party Animal]

Mmmmm - Looking at the MoD published booklet 'Your 2015 Pension Remedy Explained' booklet (which is surprisingly good), I note the timescales going back to July 2019, when the Govt committed to take steps to remedy the pension discrimination saga. Through much gnashing of teeth and allegedly significant legal bureaucracy, MoD then managed to delay implementation until October 2023 with a defensive line that it could take until April 2025 before everyone in the bracket gets their RSS statement! Cynically, I suspect it will probably be several months after that before corrected pension amounts are finally settled. The aforementioned booklet also states that those already in receipt of a military pension will be prioritised!!

In my particular case, having extended well beyond the age of 60 (still in a flying job on a FL Sqn) and now recently retired, I had no option other than staying on AFPS75 terms which meant all those years from the age of 55 upwards counted for absolutely nothing towards my final pension. Having topped out on the highest level for PAS several years ago, the McCLoud judgement is a fantastic deal for me to the tune of approx. £10k per year and so I ask myself - what have MoD pension staffs been doing since July 2019? I remember one DiN pushed out by some high level female civil servant about 18 months ago that made a big point of the fact that nothing needed to be done before Oct 23. The amount of adverse feedback to her comments on ModNet nearly crashed the system and after responding to the first 2 comments in a very defensive manner, that was the end of her replies.

In response to some of the comments above though, I know of many, many retired individuals who are waiting for their RSS and yet I do not know of a single person who has heard a sniff as yet. I'm sure a MoD spokesperson would throw out wankword statements about dedicated teams working around the clock, at pace, deeply committed etc., but in reality I suspect it's been dumped on an overworked junior as a secondary duty (great for Billy Bobs career profile etc.) I also wouldn't be surprised if Billy Bob suddenly identified as a hedgehog and therefore needed to hibernate from the office for 6 months - fully supported by MoD's latest LGBTQ+* policy diktat.

Sadly I suspect pba target will probably be proved correct with his March 25 prediction but even that may prove optimistic once the excuses start flowing like 'overwhelmed and understaffed blah'. As ever, watch this space.

[downsizer]

Hmmmmmm, largely agree with all the recent posters that this will take ages. Currently in reciept of a mix of 75/15.....I also wonder how they will balance the acoount so to speak...what if I choose an option that reduces income and increases lump sum after already having recieved the income for instance, surely the longer this takes the more complex the offer becomes?

I looked at a colleague who is due to leave RSS and it wasn't terribly clear either!

[alfred_the_great]

Mmmmm - Looking at the MoD published booklet 'Your 2015 Pension Remedy Explained' booklet (which is surprisingly good), I note the timescales going back to July 2019, when the Govt committed to take steps to remedy the pension discrimination saga. Through much gnashing of teeth and allegedly significant legal bureaucracy, MoD then managed to delay implementation until October 2023 with a defensive line that it could take until April 2025 before everyone in the bracket gets their RSS statement! Cynically, I suspect it will probably be several months after that before corrected pension amounts are finally settled. The aforementioned booklet also states that those already in receipt of a military pension will be prioritised!!

In my particular case, having extended well beyond the age of 60 (still in a flying job on a FL Sqn) and now recently retired, I had no option other than staying on AFPS75 terms which meant all those years from the age of 55 upwards counted for absolutely nothing towards my final pension. Having topped out on the highest level for PAS several years ago, the McCLoud judgement is a fantastic deal for me to the tune of approx. £10k per year and so I ask myself - what have MoD pension staffs been doing since July 2019? I remember one DiN pushed out by some high level female civil servant about 18 months ago that made a big point of the fact that nothing needed to be done before Oct 23. The amount of adverse feedback to her comments on ModNet nearly crashed the system and after responding to the first 2 comments in a very defensive manner, that was the end of her replies.

In response to some of the comments above though, I know of many, many retired individuals who are waiting for their RSS and yet I do not know of a single person who has heard a sniff as yet. I'm sure a MoD spokesperson would throw out wankword statements about dedicated teams working around the clock, at pace, deeply committed etc., but in reality I suspect it's been dumped on an overworked junior as a secondary duty (great for Billy Bobs career profile etc.) I also wouldn't be surprised if Billy Bob suddenly identified as a hedgehog and therefore needed to hibernate from the office for 6 months - fully supported by MoD's latest LGBTQ+* policy diktat.

Sadly I suspect pba target will probably be proved correct with his March 25 prediction but even that may prove optimistic once the excuses start flowing like 'overwhelmed and understaffed blah'. As ever, watch this space.

oh dear, really?

the problem was the fact that there were more than just the MoD affected, and Co-ordinating multiple pension schemes took a while.

[Atlasisrubbish]

oh dear, really?

the problem was the fact that there were more than just the MoD affected, and Co-ordinating multiple pension schemes took a while.

Alfred, you fall flat on your face again.
Since October 1st there has been NO co-ordinating with any other scheme.
From October 1st guess what’s been happening. Were you the real ‘Pike’?

[Chauderon]

I’m pretty sure if I had acted illegally and held a significant sum of Government money, it wouldn’t take them a decade to get it back from me.

And yet we supposedly have an Armed Forces Covenant in this country. Disgusting way to treat those who have served the nation.

[Common_Sense]

Anyone had their RSS yet?

[Chauderon]

Negative