last 727 Pax Flight

[punkalouver]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/the-world’s-last-passenger-727-just-flew-for-the-last-time/ar-BBScLj6?ocid=spartandhp

I had some beautiful smooth landings in the old -200 series, sometimes under challenging conditions. Of course that was in between some firm ones, sometimes in nice conditions.

[His dudeness]

Can´t help it, I still think its the most beautiful airliner ever, especially the short ones just do look right to me. Don´t miss the racket they made, though

[gearlever]

It was the first Jet I flew and the best.
A real pilots plane.

[Reluctant Bus Driver]

Flew Engineer and co-pilot on it. Wish I would have had the opportunity to fly captain. Loved that jet! Would still be on it if we had it.

[pattern_is_full]

Salute!

My second-ever experience flying (except as an unaware infant) was in a 727 (either Eastern or NorthEast, both of which it outlasted). My last 727 ride was 1991 - courtesy of American, to Nashville. It ended in one of the 72's notorious "arrivals" - ;) - hardest touchdown I've ever experienced. Nevertheless, a favorite ride - and I even got to experience a few "powerbacks" before they were discountenanced.

[industry insider]

B727 and VC10 are the best looking airliners made.I used to regularly pax on 727s in West Africa until around 2005, great aeroplane indeed.

[staircase]

As a 727 F/O on my first real airline job, I often wondered if the machine was half in charge of me, and if the machine wasn't, then the Flight engineer was!

3 years flying a wonderful jet that I would no have missed at any price.

[Old Fella]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x743/cathay_l1011_tristar_af61951ce8c48df645832612ca3d159a52783e5 9.jpg


Can´t help it, I still think its the most beautiful airliner ever, especially the short ones just do look right to me. Don´t miss the racket they made, though

You could have had the beauty without the noise with one of these.

[crewmeal]

My last flight on a 727-200 was with Syrian Arab Airlines back in 2006. I flew from Aleppo to Damascus in 45 mins. OK I paid roughly £10 to upgrade to first class, what a treat. It looked like the cabin hadn't been modified in anyway and reminded me of 70's style seating.

[treadigraph]

Can´t help it, I still think its the most beautiful airliner ever, especially the short ones just do look right to me. Don´t miss the racket they made, though
Certainly my favourite American jet airliner...!

[GLIDER 90]

Done a few wheel changes on them.

[midnight cruiser]

What was it about the 727 which made it so hard to land consistently? - I once got whiplash from a landing while I was snoozing on the jumpseat - really painful - I thought I had awoken to the end of the world!

But sorry TriStar - it's got nothing on the 72's looks - I think it's the rakish lines and clean wing. Loved the 'nicotine' orange aura of the cockpit too.

[WilliumMate]

I flew on one of the last Dan-Air 727 flights LEI-LGW before the fleet was grounded I think in 1989. Long time ago but the seats down the back were more like armchairs with ample leg room, air vents in the back of the seat in front of you and windows aligned with the seats. Bloody noisy though. :)

[tezzer]

Can´t help it, I still think its the most beautiful airliner ever, especially the short ones just do look right to me. Don´t miss the racket they made, though

Come to East Yorkshire, the one that flies out of DSA (Finningly) makes a racket, and I can pick it out, as soon as it comes into earshot. Looks lovely too 1

[rog747]

Was lucky to fly on the sole Wardair ship Cy Becker CF-FUN AUG 1972 from Dubrovnik to Gatwick - Awesome to see it arrive at DBV to take us home...We took off into one of the biggest Thunderstorms over the Adriatic and I have never seen a storm and turbulence to this day like it whilst airborne.

Should've been a BCAL 1-11 500 but they had lost one at Corfu the month before so were short of aircraft for IT work.

[rog747]

I flew on one of the last Dan-Air 727 flights LEI-LGW before the fleet was grounded I think in 1989. Long time ago but the seats down the back were more like armchairs with ample leg room, air vents in the back of the seat in front of you and windows aligned with the seats. Bloody noisy though. :)

Invited in 1973 to fly on the ''new'' three Dan Air 727-100's (ex JAL ships) for the day from LGW to Palma and back - DA had put in 2 extra door exits at the rear (like the -200 series) and plonked about 154 seats in it
Talk about cosy...

[dontgive2FACs]

I flew (as 19 year old wannabe pilot) in jump seat on last revenue service for Ansett B727 PER MEL back in 1995/6.

As the circles of aviation go, the very witty F/E on that flight now works with the same airline I fly for as a Captain. I had the good fortune to fly with him as his FO prior to becoming a Captain myself.

Great aeroplane.

[bafanguy]

What was it about the 727 which made it so hard to land consistently?

mc,

You'll certainly get a range of opinion, but I didn't find the airplane particularly difficult to land consistently. Those with an affinity for flap 40 landings often made life more difficult than it had to be. I really didn't care if the FO used 40 but reminded them they would be standing in the door saying goodbye to deplaning pax...plan accordingly. ;)

It did have the occasional Boeing "skip" but just don't extend the spoilers mid-skip and you'd be OK.

The airplane is incredibly stable.

[trident3A]

The most beautiful of the trijets for my money and there's nothing like walking up into the bowels of the aircraft via the rear stairs.

[Three Lima Charlie]

Often referred to as a "Three Hole" airplane...three engines, three toilets, three F/A and three Ass xxxx in the cockpit.

[Turbine D]

I used to fly in and out of Albuquerque on TWA quite a bit. TWA flew both 727s and 707s in and out at the time. The 727s didn't quite have enough energy to depart up through the "pass" whereas the 707s did. Both were great airplanes in their day.

[aterpster]

I used to fly in and out of Albuquerque on TWA quite a bit. TWA flew both 727s and 707s in and out at the time. The 727s didn't quite have enough energy to depart up through the "pass" whereas the 707s did. Both were great airplanes in their day.
I flew both for TWA. Even with the performance of the 707 there was no IFR procedure for departing straight-out to the east. If you experienced that, the captain would have had to request a VFR climb.

[aterpster]

What was it about the 727 which made it so hard to land consistently? - I once got whiplash from a landing while I was snoozing on the jumpseat - really painful - I thought I had awoken to the end of the world!

It was possible to consistently make good landings in the 727 once you "broke the code."

[gearlever]

In the 80s we did some 727 Atlantic crossings, charter flights.

NAV was via one portable INS.
Two FC seat rows had to be removed....

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1325/ins_727_3afe2fe10f8ad6f1bf072bdcef64bcaaed8dd619.jpg

[Turbine D]

aterpster,
If you experienced that, the captain would have had to request a VFR climb.
As I recall, it was always clear (VFR) conditions going up through the pass, never cloudy. In the pass, at times the ground looked to be rising upward as fast as the 707 was climbing, probably not the case, but seemed that way.

[Sailvi767]

What was it about the 727 which made it so hard to land consistently? - I once got whiplash from a landing while I was snoozing on the jumpseat - really painful - I thought I had awoken to the end of the world!

But sorry TriStar - it's got nothing on the 72's looks - I think it's the rakish lines and clean wing. Loved the 'nicotine' orange aura of the cockpit too.

With all 3 engines in the tail the main gear were located further back from the center of lift than most aircraft. If you did not fly a nice smooth flare through the round out and tried to salvage the touchdown by pulling back harder on the yoke you simply drove the main gear into the runway. Best to catch it with power not elevator.
The aircraft was a fantastic hand flying platform. Very stable with excellent control balance. We rarely ever shot a coupled approach since it was such a joy to hand fly.

[pattern_is_full]

What was it about the 727 which made it so hard to land consistently? - I once got whiplash from a landing while I was snoozing on the jumpseat - really painful - I thought I had awoken to the end of the world!

The transformer-like "self-disassembling" wing (with flaps 40 and full-span kreuger flaps instead of slats) that made the 727 effectively the first "regional jet" that could handle shorter small-city runways played a role. I think that with a normal flare, the drag would kill speed and lift much faster than many pilots were expecting.

http://www.airlinereporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/DSC_1179.jpg

Some airlines actually eventually had plates bolted across the flap-handle quadrant to prevent selecting flaps 40.

But the pros as above will know more about the exact - situations, aerodynamics, and "special sauce" needed.

[flash8]

OMG, fond memories of the 727 Flight Engineers course back in '00.... was never much use... a lot of material was supplied on VHS tapes... I am sure I have somewhere still. Absolutely classic piece of Boeing, first class.

[Airbubba]

Some airlines actually eventually had plates bolted across the flap-handle quadrant to prevent selecting flaps 40.

Discussion on the blocked flaps 40 setting here: https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/334159-727-early-high-sink-rate-crashes-2.html

I saw a couple of 'watch this' demos of flaps 40 with pax onboard decades ago. With the power off the glide ratio was like that of a Coke machine. :eek:

[pattern_is_full]

It was the first Jet I flew and the best.
A real pilots plane.

Indeed. Not pax operations, of course, but I just love "riding along" with the cockpit videos of the AmeriJet 727Fs "leaning" into the river valley to join visual final into DOM(inica) as the alt. alert calls "500...400...300." Not a place where the traditional definition of "stable" approaches can be used.

[resar]

I recall flying back to Melbourne from Alice Springs on 727 VH-RME in 1967. Very exciting for a teen. A search indicates it was scrapped in 1995.

[cattlerepairman]

One of my favourite 727 videos: VFR into Engadin airport, Switzerland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js4WQd7XSs8

Flaps AND speed brakes :-)

[His dudeness]

This thread brings back memories....PanAm IGS´ses last THF-STR-THF with a 727...the guys broke all rules in the book during that last approach into what was then RWY 08 at EDDS and a trainee of my dad - who had worked as an ATCO with PA IGS thru its best days and was good friends with several PA pilots - had him come out of retirement and issue the last take off clearance - I was sitting in my KingAir as no 2 to depart and the silence after the acknowledgment of that last T/O clearance was deafening. We all watched it until the smoke trail was gone...My dads gone, PA is gone and now the mighty 27 is gone.

[WHBM]

Was this the last pax flight of any type with a Flight Engineer anywhere ?

[Less Hair]

Air Koryu seems to have one Tu-154 and an Il-18. They must have FE's onboard?

[falcon12]

As does the IL76

[Asturias56]

Rugged and reliable but not terribly comfortable and very noisy by today's standards - a real workhorse that tends to be forgotten

[gearlever]

One of my favourite 727 videos: VFR into Engadin airport, Switzerland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js4WQd7XSs8

Flaps AND speed brakes :-)

UNBELIEVABLE......

[DaveReidUK]

As does the IL76

Not to mention a handful of B742s still flying with F/Es.

[aterpster]

aterpster,

As I recall, it was always clear (VFR) conditions going up through the pass, never cloudy. In the pass, at times the ground looked to be rising upward as fast as the 707 was climbing, probably not the case, but seemed that way.
The ground would have been rising had he had an engine failure.

[aterpster]

Some airlines actually eventually had plates bolted across the flap-handle quadrant to prevent selecting flaps 40.
.
TWA installed that block.

[SeenItAll]

One of my favourite 727 videos: VFR into Engadin airport, Switzerland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js4WQd7XSs8

Flaps AND speed brakes :-)

Geez. That is like a Space Shuttle approach. Glideslope of about 20 degrees, from 50,000 feet down to runway in 4 minutes.

[Raffles S.A.]

There are at least 3 VIP 727s flying and one that has recently been purchased by 2excel for passenger charter (N724YS). Another one, HZ-AB3 has been standing at Lasham airfield for a while, not sure of the status.

[DaveReidUK]

There are around 75 727s still active around the world of which, surprisingly, there are only a dozen or so of the 70-odd 727REs.

[rog747]

Always used to enjoy when on my regular holidays in the early 1980's at EYW Key West watching the screaming and smoking 727-100's of Eastern and National coming in over the old town with that wing 50% more all hanging out and down with flaps 40.
The LDA at EYW was around 4500' but they would usually stop in about 1500' - not sure if they used the NLG brakes too

The 727-100 was an impressive beast - so pleased I managed to get my first ride on one - the Wardair 727

Is there anything today that has the oomph performance and comparison of the 727-100 ?

[Trav a la]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/2018_09_09_at_14_15_02_59ddada9b4f7df5b1e91147ca01279eaf76b8 3cc.jpg

Seen at Lasham in September along with a few other examples, not all in one piece unfortunately..

[MarkerInbound]

Some airlines actually eventually had plates bolted across the flap-handle quadrant to prevent selecting flaps 40.
.

It was part of the Stage 3 noise compliance. The noise certification is an average of a takeoff and landing. The normal engined 727s exceeded the standards for takeoff but by reducing the amount of sheet metal in the breeze they would come in below the limit for landing and by enough margin to balance out the TO noise.

[gearlever]

Always used to enjoy when on my regular holidays in the early 1980's at EYW Key West watching the screaming and smoking 727-100's of Eastern and National coming in over the old town with that wing 50% more all hanging out and down with flaps 40.
The LDA at EYW was around 4500' but they would usually stop in about 1500' - not sure if they used the NLG brakes too

The 727-100 was an impressive beast - so pleased I managed to get my first ride on one - the Wardair 727

Is there anything today that has the oomph performance and comparison of the 727-100 ?

Did the 100s have NLG Brakes?

We had some 200adv with NLG Brakes. These brakes never ever became activ.

[BSD]

Had a jump seat ride into Burlington Vt. many, many years ago in a United -100 series 727.

Gin clear CAVU day, the crew got the field and declared visual some way south over lake Champlain.

The skipper joined on a tight right base (runway 15 I think it was at the time) the wings were rolled level on the centreline at 500’, the wheels “caressed” the ground for the most graceful, smooth touchdown. The calmest, slickest, most unhurried example of sheer finesse that I still recall, in awe, to this day.

After much joshing (“are we down yet?” etc.) from the F/O and the F/E, The old boy just dismissed his obvious skill by giving all the credit to what he described as “Mr. Boeing’s finest” I suspect though, Mr. Boeing’s finest wasn’t the easiest of mounts.

Magnificent aeroplane. Was definitely on my bucket list. I’d love to have flown it.

[bafanguy]

Did the 100s have NLG Brakes?

We had some 200adv with NLG Brakes. These brakes never ever became activ.

I think they were an option vs standard equipment so they show up sporadically in fleets. We got a couple of -100s from the Northeast merger and they had NLG brakes, IIRC. And you had to get on the brakes pretty hard for them to kick in...something like 50% pedal travel ? It's been a very long time so don't bet any money on my recall at this point.

And speekbrakes with flaps extended ? :ugh:

[svhar]

The 727 was the first jet that I flew. It was nice most of the time. It was possible to grease it in but also I have had my worst landings in that airplane too. Normally that happened after a very stable approch in perfect weather. I never understood what I did wrong. Some captains told me to push the yoke forward during the flare. That worked fine some of the time but not always. The next one was the 747. I fell in love with that one immediately. It was always consistent.

[aterpster]

Geez. That is like a Space Shuttle approach. Glideslope of about 20 degrees, from 50,000 feet down to runway in 4 minutes.
I haven't watched the video, but I doubt there was any variation of the 727 that could go above FL 420.

[aterpster]

The 727 was the first jet that I flew. It was nice most of the time. It was possible to grease it in but also I have had my worst landings in that airplane too. Normally that happened after a very stable approch in perfect weather. I never understood what I did wrong. Some captains told me to push the yoke forward during the flare. That worked fine some of the time but not always. The next one was the 747. I fell in love with that one immediately. It was always consistent.

Once you were in ground effect, you retarded the throttles and relaxed the back pressure. You didn't push forward.

[West Coast]

Once you were in ground effect, you retarded the throttles and relaxed the back pressure. You didn't push forward.


Varient specific.

[4runner]

Always used to enjoy when on my regular holidays in the early 1980's at EYW Key West watching the screaming and smoking 727-100's of Eastern and National coming in over the old town with that wing 50% more all hanging out and down with flaps 40.
The LDA at EYW was around 4500' but they would usually stop in about 1500' - not sure if they used the NLG brakes too

The 727-100 was an impressive beast - so pleased I managed to get my first ride on one - the Wardair 727

Is there anything today that has the oomph performance and comparison of the 727-100 ?

i live right next to the cemetery. I’m glad they’re not coming here anymore.

[Bravo Romeo Alpha]

I was an ATC flow controller in Australia many years ago and provided there was not much turbulence the 727-200s of Ansett (now gone) and TAA (now Qantas) would do 350 kts to 20 nm to touchdown for an ILS or visual approach and beat anything else in the sky. Hats off to those flight crews and the 727!

[tdracer]

When I was a kid in Pueblo, CO, United did 727 pilot training out of the local airport. We had a new house on the very east end of town, and you could literally see the airport out the back window on a nice day. I'd often sit out back on a large dirt pile and just watch them do countless touch-and-go landings.

Most memorable flight I ever had on a 727 was Seattle to Salt Lake about 30 years ago. We were behind schedule, and I was concerned about making my connection in Salt Lake - as we started our takeoff roll the center engine surged. I was sitting near the front of the aircraft, but it was still so loud only my seat belt kept me in my seat :eek: (I've heard several engine surges during flight testing in the years since, but none were anywhere near that loud inside the aircraft). After the initial shock from the bang, my next thought was 'damn, I'll never make my connection now' but they continued on with the takeoff as if nothing had happened :confused:. When I was getting off after we landed in Salt Lake, I was in a rush but I still took a minute to ask the pilot standing in the flight deck door about continuing the takeoff after the surge. He immediately started into an explanation of what a surge was but I quickly cut him off - 'I work jet engines and I know what a surge is - I was just surprised you continued the takeoff after the surge'. 'Oh, well if we'd aborted I just would have turned around and tried again - so we just retarded the throttle, made sure it recovered, then advanced it and continued...'
I know well that the 727 center inlet was prone to separation that could cause a surge, and that the JT8D engine was unlikely to suffer damage from a surge. I'm also sure the pilot in question had experienced his fair share of JT8D surges, but I was never quite as comfortable flying on a 727 after that...

[rog747]

i live right next to the cemetery. I’m glad they’re not coming here anymore.

AAAW - were you living in Key West back then too? do you recall any airlines bringing the 727-200 into EYW or was the runway too short?

Out of interest what big jets go in there now?

Not been to Key West on hols for over 20 years as it is now so expensive but I'm planning a trip this year to maybe have a slow drive down the Keys.

My last flights back in the day MIA-EYW-MIA were on rather ghastly very small turboprops (Banderante?)

Had some wonderful vintage prop flights on PBA airways on their DC3's and Martin 404's
walking out to one of these at EYW leaving at sunset in warm balmy air and swaying palm trees to fly back to MIA for a Laker or Air Florida DC-10 to Gatwick

[bafanguy]

...as we started our takeoff roll the center engine surged. I know well that the 727 center inlet was prone to separation that could cause a surge...

tdracer,

Now that you mention it, I do have a vague recall of something in our manuals about the #2 engine, the possibility of surge and x-winds on T/O. I think it was to spool it up with the others but not advance it to T/O power until rolling at some speed ? All my 727 manuals are buried in the storage locker...and I'm lazy.

West Coast ? aterpster ?

[Discorde]

De Havilland designed and manufactured a British tri-jet named (unsurprisingly) the Trident. During the design stage a plan was floated to collaborate on the project with Boeing, who had also come up with the 3-tail-mounted engines 130-seater concept. But the British government interfered, requiring DH to scale the aircraft down to meet the state-owned domestic airline's requirements so the two manufacturers went their separate ways. Result: Trident sales - 117, B727 sales - 1832.

The T-bird prototype flew a year before the 727. It was a delight to fly, with cruise M0.84 or more (gas-guzzling was OK in the days of cheap fuel). During descent it was permissible to select limited reverse on the pod engines (but not below 2000 ft AGL) so impressive plummets while decelerating were available if required.

Take-off performance wasn't so sparkling - the aircraft was affectionately known as the 'ground gripper'.

In its favour, the Trident was the first airliner in the world to be certified for autoland in low visibilities.

[gearlever]

tdracer,

Now that you mention it, I do have a vague recall of something in our manuals about the #2 engine, the possibility of surge and x-winds on T/O. I think it was to spool it up with the others but not advance it to T/O power until rolling at some speed ? All my 727 manuals are buried in the storage locker...and I'm lazy.



YEP, we did it that way as well.

[WHBM]

If you look at the photo above, then apart from the obvious stuff like engine position and the empennage, it looks pretty much like a 737 Max. Cover up to the rear of the wing root and you would be pushed to spot the difference. Same fuselage, same flight deck exterior. It seems in 55 years that Boeing design has been incremental rather than substantive. Well done to the original 727 designer.

I wonder if any of the original 727 tooling is still in use at Renton on the Max.

Regarding whether this was the world's last pax flight with an FE, the examples returned of the B742 and the IL76 are, if I am not mistaken, all freighters now.

[Less Hair]

Having flown a lot onboard PA 727 as a kid I seem to remember they had two versions of the No.2 engine air intakes: One oval and one round shaped. Must be related to the surge issue. Pan Am in Berlin had early -100s and later -200s. Remember flights from Munich (Riem) with stop at Nuremberg to Tempelhof. Got all those tin "Junior Clipper Pilot" wings back then.

[bafanguy]

...seem to remember they had two versions of the No.2 engine air intakes: One oval and one round shaped. Must be related to the surge issue.

The -100s had the oval intake while the -200s were round. I can't remember (if I ever knew) why the difference. They both had JT8Ds of various dash numbers.

Someone here knows the "why" of the difference.

[DaveReidUK]

Regarding whether this was the world's last pax flight with an FE, the examples returned of the B742 and the IL76 are, if I am not mistaken, all freighters now.

At least a couple of the surviving B742s aren't freighters:

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/412x232/790926as_557b10478453c972542169ebcb1f4b116e5a4128.jpg

:O

[aterpster]

Varient specific.
Yes, the -100 was a bit more flexible than the -200.

[aterpster]

When I was a kid in Pueblo, CO, United did 727 pilot training out of the local airport. We had a new house on the very east end of town, and you could literally see the airport out the back window on a nice day. I'd often sit out back on a large dirt pile and just watch them do countless touch-and-go landings.

Most memorable flight I ever had on a 727 was Seattle to Salt Lake about 30 years ago. We were behind schedule, and I was concerned about making my connection in Salt Lake - as we started our takeoff roll the center engine surged. I was sitting near the front of the aircraft, but it was still so loud only my seat belt kept me in my seat :eek: (I've heard several engine surges during flight testing in the years since, but none were anywhere near that loud inside the aircraft). After the initial shock from the bang, my next thought was 'damn, I'll never make my connection now' but they continued on with the takeoff as if nothing had happened :confused:. When I was getting off after we landed in Salt Lake, I was in a rush but I still took a minute to ask the pilot standing in the flight deck door about continuing the takeoff after the surge. He immediately started into an explanation of what a surge was but I quickly cut him off - 'I work jet engines and I know what a surge is - I was just surprised you continued the takeoff after the surge'. 'Oh, well if we'd aborted I just would have turned around and tried again - so we just retarded the throttle, made sure it recovered, then advanced it and continued...'
I know well that the 727 center inlet was prone to separation that could cause a surge, and that the JT8D engine was unlikely to suffer damage from a surge. I'm also sure the pilot in question had experienced his fair share of JT8D surges, but I was never quite as comfortable flying on a 727 after that...
I have over 7,000 hours on the 727 (which I did not like), most of that time was in the -200. Never experienced that center engine surge.

[bafanguy]

I have over 7,000 hours on the 727 (which I did not like)...

aterpster,

What didn't you like about the airplane ? Other than having to put your coffee cup on the floor.

Once you lose 50% of your hearing, the wind noise doesn't bother you anymore. ;)

[Raffles S.A.]

The -100s had the oval intake while the -200s were round. I can't remember (if I ever knew) why the difference. They both had JT8Ds of various dash numbers.

Someone here knows the "why" of the difference.

Compressor stalls occur with crosswinds with the oval intakes both on the ground and during flight, may be the reason why Boeing changed them to round.

[SeenItAll]

I haven't watched the video, but I doubt there was any variation of the 727 that could go above FL 420.

I was citing how the Space Shuttle lands, not a 727 -- and only suggesting that the dive that was required to get this 727 into St. Moritz seemed thematically similar to that of the Shuttle.

[tdracer]

If I recall correctly (and we're talking old, old memories here), all the early 727s had the oval center inlet (both -100 and -200). At some point Boeing introduced the 727 Advanced with several updates - one of which was the round center inlet.


I wonder if any of the original 727 tooling is still in use at Renton on the Max.

Probably not in Renton - the 737 fuselage is made in Wichita (by what is now Spirit). But I'd bet some of that fuselage tooling dates back to the 727 and perhaps even the 707.

[Joe le Taxi]

No need to dive into Samedan (follow the published visual route along the valley, and not the scary spiral they were doing) -

- just a need to not fly into a mountain - something which eludes some unfortunates from time to time at Samedan (invariably when crews try to "improvise")

[bafanguy]

If I recall correctly (and we're talking old, old memories here), all the early 727s had the oval center inlet (both -100 and -200). At some point Boeing introduced the 727 Advanced with several updates - one of which was the round center inlet.

tdracer,

There were so many 727s built it's hard to keep them all straight. I wouldn't doubt your recollection at all.

Ours would mostly have been post-1973ish following the Northeast merger. The 100s and 200s from NE would have been older.

We had -232s for whatever that's worth...and about 9 or 10 -232As which had the aux fuel tank (6,000 lbs ?) and the Block 5 autopilot which was an improvement over the more common version with the pitch control via the turn knob...finesse required but you get used to it pretty quickly.

We had two 232As with winglets as an experiment which went nowhere as far as I remember. Those had the 40 flap position either blocked off or its use prohibited due to control rigging required by the winglets. All my recollections subject to "revision". ;)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/38016434@N05/15369166536

[short bus]

The Mexican Feds have a couple 727s they are still using - or at least they were until a couple years ago the last time I saw anything about them.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x695/727_f4e9c9fec1f9510f83ae016770bc932f2fe0d6dc.jpg

[amf1966]

Sad to see so many of these classic planes reaching the end of their days - including the queen of the skies herself...

The 727 has a great deal to answer for...

1977, and great excitement as an 11-year-old kid (me) is being taken on a family holiday - an early example of a "package holiday".

Much anticipation as I climbed the stairs into the back of a Tunis Air 727 and settle in to my seat.

The moment that thing throttled up and hurtled off down the runway, I was smitten; I spent the majority of that holiday dreaming of the journey home and a repeat performance of that exhilarating acceleration and leap off the ground.

That day in 1977 was the start of my life long obsession, fascination and thirst for knowledge about aviation; and a Tunis Air B727 is entirely responsible.

What memories...

[5711N0205W]

My last 727 pax flight would be from Pointe Noire to Libreville with Air Nobag where the 727 positioned into PN empty and all the seat backs were folded forwards from braking, we got on board after eventually bribing our way out of the holding cage (departure lounge)... happy days :)

[bafanguy]

This is their fate:

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6975728

[tdracer]

One little known variant of the 727 - the JATO option.
Apparently a Mexican airline wanted to be able to operate fully loaded out of Mexico City on a hot day, and the JT8D wasn't quite up to the task. So they added JATO bottles - if they lost an engine after V1, they hit a switch that fired a couple of JATO bottles (I think they were located in the wheel wells?).
According to a coworker that had been on board for the flight tests, you couldn't really tell the difference when they fired the JATOs...
Eventually they were able to upgrade the engines sufficiently that the JATO option was no longer needed. From what I heard they were never actually used in anger.

[gearlever]

One little known variant of the 727 - the JATO option.
Apparently a Mexican airline wanted to be able to operate fully loaded out of Mexico City on a hot day, and the JT8D wasn't quite up to the task. So they added JATO bottles - if they lost an engine after V1, they hit a switch that fired a couple of JATO bottles (I think they were located in the wheel wells?).
According to a coworker that had been on board for the flight tests, you couldn't really tell the difference when they fired the JATOs...
Eventually they were able to upgrade the engines sufficiently that the JATO option was no longer needed. From what I heard they were never actually used in anger.

Yep, a first officer which flew for some years as a CPT in South America, told me about this feature. Two rockets in the MLG wheel well, associated with the auto pack trip system.

[suninmyeyes]

I wonder if DB Cooper is still alive and remembers his 727 ride affectionately?!

[gearlever]

I wonder if DB Cooper is still alive and remembers his 727 ride affectionately?!

Isn't he the owner of this website?;)

[bafanguy]

One little known variant of the 727 - the JATO option.

...the JT8D wasn't quite up to the task. So they added JATO bottles - if they lost an engine after V1, they hit a switch that fired a couple of JATO bottles (I think they were located in the wheel wells?).
...you couldn't really tell the difference when they fired the JATOs...

tdracer,

Interesting. Hadn't heard of the JATO on the B727. Any US operator have them installed ?

They were installed on a number of airplane types...as you certainly know (military in particular).

I flew for a small non-sked that had JATO on its DC3s. Yep DC3s. We figured they'd just relocate the impact site if needed.

Overseas National Airways had DC-9-33Fs with JATO mounted in the fuselage fairings where the aft edge of the wing abutted the fuselage. I think they got the MGTW from 109K to about 114K.

Here's a pic but you can't really see the JATO openings but they were there. Saw 'em myself up close while sharing ramps with other non-skeds.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Douglas_DC-9-33F_N937F_ONA_MIA_17.07.76_edited-2.jpg

[WHBM]

I believe JATO was only selected by Mexicana, for getting out of the hot & high points on their network.

Of course, the Trident 3 took a somewhat similar approach to insufficient performance :)

[Kerosene Kraut]

Could JATO for commercial airplanes still be certified today?
Where would you drop the empty bottles?:}

[aterpster]

If I recall correctly (and we're talking old, old memories here), all the early 727s had the oval center inlet (both -100 and -200). At some point Boeing introduced the 727 Advanced with several updates - one of which was the round center inlet.


I can only speak about TWA. Our -100s had a round center inlet, all our -200 and -200As had an oval center inlet.

[aterpster]

aterpster,

What didn't you like about the airplane ? Other than having to put your coffee cup on the floor.

Once you lose 50% of your hearing, the wind noise doesn't bother you anymore. ;)
Poor takeoff performance at ABQ, DEN, and COS. The -100 would wallow at altitude in turbulence. I don't recall having to put the coffee cup on the floor. I also didn't like all the short legs that TWA had for the 727 fleet. I progressed to the 767, then 1011, both of which had CATIII fail-active and outstanding autoflight. The autopilot on the 727 was lousy. Late in the game we got 10 advanced -200s with an allegedly better autopilot. Yeah, right. It could do limited CATIII with no decrab. No one used that "feature."

A friend had an engine failure (-100) on ABQ Runway 26 (shed a tire into one of the outboard engines). It did not fly as advertised in the simulator. They turned down the Rio Grande and struggled for miles to get enough altitude to return for landing.

Also, TWA used the smallest engine on the entire 727 fleet, 14,500 pounds of thrust. I'm not good on engine model numbers. I have no doubt that had I had an engine failure after V1 on ABQ Runway 08, it would have been all over.

[fantom]

Yes, we even had them in Merrie Olde Englande.


https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/minlgw/727%20ND%20SBG_zpsoqvhpada.jpg (https://s20.photobucket.com/user/minlgw/media/727%20ND%20SBG_zpsoqvhpada.jpg.html)

[bafanguy]

I can only speak about TWA. Our -100s had a round center inlet, all our -200 and -200As had an oval center inlet.

aterpster,

If you flew with the -7 engines they were no bargain. We had the -15s on the -200s IIRC. It was an improvement over the NE -200s which had the -7s.

Apparently there's more to the inlet story than I understood. I assumed the -100 had oval and -200 was round. I'm obviously misinformed. Now I am curious about why the difference.

Boeing 727-23 - American Airlines | Aviation Photo #2196268 | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/American-Airlines/Boeing-727-23/2196268)

[fantom]

Dash -7? You must be joking.

I think these were -19Rs when I flew them.Serious stuff.

No, just had a look at the excellent data from Bafanguy and it shows the three we gave to Syria 9K AFB/C/D as -17Rs. Brain fade...

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/minlgw/small727.jpg (https://s20.photobucket.com/user/minlgw/media/small727.jpg.html)

[gearlever]

Boeing 727 Take Off With RATO

[bafanguy]

Dash -7? You must be joking.

https://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/minlgw/small727.jpg (https://s20.photobucket.com/user/minlgw/media/small727.jpg.html)

fantom,

I don't think I was but maybe my recall isn't accurate. I can't (without digging into my buried 727 manuals in the storage shed) say with 101% certainty that the inherited NE -295s had -7s but that sure is my recollection. They were dogs...I do remember that.

Looking at this list, one can find -200s produced with -7s on them so my recall is not as far afield as it could be:

Boeing 727 Datacenter (http://727datacenter.net/prodlist/b727_t_0.htm)

[jimtx]

fantom,

I don't think I was but maybe my recall isn't accurate. I can't (without digging into my buried 727 manuals in the storage shed) say with 101% certainty that the inherited NE -295s had -7s but that sure is my recollection. They were dogs...I do remember that.

Looking at this list, one can find -200s produced with -7s on them so my recall is not as far afield as it could be:

Boeing 727 Datacenter (http://727datacenter.net/prodlist/b727_t_0.htm)

"Lead sleds" EAL had some.

[bafanguy]

"Lead sleds" EAL had some.

jimtx,

Thanks. Here's the Boeing list by customer codes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_customer_codes

Kinda interesting.

[punkalouver]

A nice thing about the 727 is that you can go down and slow down. This is just at idle thrust with no speed brakes being used. One can be at 250 knots and intercepting the glideslope at say 5000 feet and just slow down while using the slow speed trim switch(don't you miss that switch) and start configuring. Of course then you have your 10 spoiler panels that can be used for descent as well(compared to just four on the 737-200 and no slow speed trim switch). I heard of one guy being at full flap and gear down at 320K(max gear down speed) as he was quite high and apparently it was really noisy with a big descent rate.

737 guys thought their aircraft were so great because they were comparing it to the turboprops they flew previously, but 727 guys didn't thin much about the two-holer with its main gear seeming to wander as you rolled down the runway(what cause that again, some sort of damper). We had 737's with gravel kits and a 180 knot gear speed and a slow cruise speed. As one former 727 driver said: on the 737 you fly around slowly all day and when you finally get to destination, you can't slow down.

The 727 wing was a thing of beauty when clean and then seemed to slowly come apart into this incredible high lift device for landing with 40 degrees flap viewed from the side making it appear as if the wing was close to a full half circle. The 14 spoilers killed all that lift. I flew as a pax a lot on it and I always loved watching the flaps come out. I also liked the look of LED's 2,3,6, and 7 being the first ones to extend on the leading edge. It just looked kind of cool and the speedbrakes would be tested during the initial taxi out as well. Nosegear brakes added to stopping capability if you had them.

The tail is a thing of beauty with its sweepback and look. Like the DC-9, you might end up having to listen to unsynced engines, especially in the climb. I tried to sync them up in cruise as I thought I could barely feel the sensation of unsynced engines. As a pax, you would hear those engine on approach in the back much more than any wing mounted engine although the 737-200 was annoying loud for the rear pax on takeoff and climb. 727 engine noise seemed more enjoyable as a pax. As for the pilots, it was nice and quiet in the cockpit for a silent engine start and taxi our with the loudest sound being the altimeter vibrator. Mind you, it seemed quite loud if the side window was opened so I suppose the glass was fairly thick. Adding thrust for takeoff just made the air conditioning airflow increase. You would be on initial climbout with it still being nice and quiet. That all changed at 250 knots in the climb though.I heard a few compressor stalls. Fairly quiet in the cockpit but quite loud as a pax.

[tdracer]

Could JATO for commercial airplanes still be certified today?
Where would you drop the empty bottles?:}

I doubt it - I don't think you could show the necessary reliability (JATO bottles have been known to occasionally go boom - that would be serious bad news if it was strapped to a commercial airliner at the time). This all happened before my time - stories told by coworkers who had been involved ~10 years earlier. But I got the impression the JATO option was basically just a rule beater.
Back in 2011, we took a 747-8F to Kangerlussuaq in Greenland to do some cold weather testing. First full day we were there it was too warm for the planned testing so we basically got the day off (took a tour up to the glacier which was quite interesting). Anyway walking around Kangerlussaug there are literally hundreds of used JATO bottles. I understand they use them to get C130's off the icecap. Some of the bottles were just laying about but most incorporated into the local landscape - fences and such made from old JATO bottles.

[hiflymk3]

A masterpiece of form and function, they looked the biz. Sleek balanced lines, swept back, pointy nose, it looked fit for purpose, poised like it wanted to fly and fast. Only ever PAX but it puts a smile on my chops remembering the flights I had on them, here, there and everywhere.

[aterpster]

Dash -7? You must be joking.

The joke was on the passengers and crews.

[4runner]

AAAW - were you living in Key West back then too? do you recall any airlines bringing the 727-200 into EYW or was the runway too short?

Out of interest what big jets go in there now?

Not been to Key West on hols for over 20 years as it is now so expensive but I'm planning a trip this year to maybe have a slow drive down the Keys.

My last flights back in the day MIA-EYW-MIA were on rather ghastly very small turboprops (Banderante?)

Had some wonderful vintage prop flights on PBA airways on their DC3's and Martin 404's
walking out to one of these at EYW leaving at sunset in warm balmy air and swaying palm trees to fly back to MIA for a Laker or Air Florida DC-10 to Gatwick
I was, but too young to care about jet noise and not very close to the airport. It’s mainly ERJ’s and 73’s now. The -700 of course. Silver brings Saab’s. I quit using them, even to JS due to on time performance and loads. Seaborne manages pretty well with them though. Just sayin’....

[Flava Saver]

If I recall correctly (and we're talking old, old memories here), all the early 727s had the oval center inlet (both -100 and -200). At some point Boeing introduced the 727 Advanced with several updates - one of which was the round center inlet.


I’ve never seen a -200 with an oval intake on number 2. Can anyone provide a photo of a -200 with this setup?

[stilton]

A nice thing about the 727 is that you can go down and slow down. This is just at idle thrust with no speed brakes being used. One can be at 250 knots and intercepting the glideslope at say 5000 feet and just slow down while using the slow speed trim switch(don't you miss that switch) and start configuring. Of course then you have your 10 spoiler panels that can be used for descent as well(compared to just four on the 737-200 and no slow speed trim switch). I heard of one guy being at full flap and gear down at 320K(max gear down speed) as he was quite high and apparently it was really noisy with a big descent rate.

737 guys thought their aircraft were so great because they were comparing it to the turboprops they flew previously, but 727 guys didn't thin much about the two-holer with its main gear seeming to wander as you rolled down the runway(what cause that again, some sort of damper). We had 737's with gravel kits and a 180 knot gear speed and a slow cruise speed. As one former 727 driver said: on the 737 you fly around slowly all day and when you finally get to destination, you can't slow down.

The 727 wing was a thing of beauty when clean and then seemed to slowly come apart into this incredible high lift device for landing with 40 degrees flap viewed from the side making it appear as if the wing was close to a full half circle. The 14 spoilers killed all that lift. I flew as a pax a lot on it and I always loved watching the flaps come out. I also liked the look of LED's 2,3,6, and 7 being the first ones to extend on the leading edge. It just looked kind of cool and the speedbrakes would be tested during the initial taxi out as well. Nosegear brakes added to stopping capability if you had them.

The tail is a thing of beauty with its sweepback and look. Like the DC-9, you might end up having to listen to unsynced engines, especially in the climb. I tried to sync them up in cruise as I thought I could barely feel the sensation of unsynced engines. As a pax, you would hear those engine on approach in the back much more than any wing mounted engine although the 737-200 was annoying loud for the rear pax on takeoff and climb. 727 engine noise seemed more enjoyable as a pax. As for the pilots, it was nice and quiet in the cockpit for a silent engine start and taxi our with the loudest sound being the altimeter vibrator. Mind you, it seemed quite loud if the side window was opened so I suppose the glass was fairly thick. Adding thrust for takeoff just made the air conditioning airflow increase. You would be on initial climbout with it still being nice and quiet. That all changed at 250 knots in the climb though.I heard a few compressor stalls. Fairly quiet in the cockpit but quite loud as a pax.



Very nice commentary on a lovely aircraft, my first jet as well and I feel fortunate to have flown it


Still the best handling airliner I think, stable yet delightfully responsive and went through turbulence like a hot knife through butter


I liked using that cruise trim button as well, made for very smooth adjustments

[aterpster]

I’ve never seen a -200 with an oval intake on number 2. Can anyone provide a photo of a -200 with this setup?
Perhaps it was the -100 that had the oval #2 inlet. It's been a long time.

[DaveReidUK]

Perhaps it was the -100 that had the oval #2 inlet. It's been a long time.

That's my understanding.

[atakacs]

No need to dive into Samedan (follow the published visual route along the valley and not the scary spiral they were doing)

That's indeed an odd approach they are flying - anyone with specifics ?

[MarkerInbound]

The joke was on the passengers and crews.

The company I was flying them for put -7s on some 200s because "the engines are lighter and we can haul more freight." That might have been true on an ISA standard day but go up a couple thousand feet and crank up the temperature and we were leaving freight behind. Everything got upped to -9s or -15s in a year.

[ThreeThreeMike]

In the days of analog devices and the pair of wires which accompanied many of them, the real estate needed for the man-machine interface in the 727 was quite expansive.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x702/26763_1502610739_98dc5ab573bcacebbdf66476c88f02bd23a63f61.jp g

[pattern_is_full]

...Like the DC-9, you might end up having to listen to unsynced engines, especially in the climb. I tried to sync them up in cruise as I thought I could barely feel the sensation of unsynced engines. As a pax, you would hear those engine on approach in the back

Yah - that comment kicked off a memory of my early flight mentioned previously. The MMMMMMmmmmmmMMMMmmMmMmMmMmMmMmMMMMmmmmMMMMMMMmmmmmmmMMMMMMM of the unsynced engines "beating" as we climbed and turned over Boston Harbor. Of course, my seat was aughty-F (I could see into the #3 fan right outside the window) - but that sound came to symbolize "jet travel" to me for quite a while.

[sb_sfo]

I got my A&P in '78, and my first job wrenching on the big jets was in '79 working on Mexicana 727s with the JATO option. After a year or so, I got on with UA, and shortly had to relocate to ORD, where I got taxi/runup qualified on all the fleet, but the 727 was my favorite. Commuting back to SFO, I would usually take a DC-10 flight home (prime rib sliced seat-side in F/C), but occasionally the -10 was full, so I would slide down the concourse and jump on a 727 ORD-OAK-SFO. The OAK-SFO leg was usually empty, so I could jump-seat for the Bay tour. Depart RWY 27, head down the Bay, then line up on 28 at SFO. Those guys were busy, but it was great to watch. Loved the 727, except for the tire changes. Big freaking tires.

[bafanguy]

33M,

Do you know where that pic was taken ? From the view out the windows (and the lack of a F/E seat), it appears to be a static display.


In the days of analog devices and the pair of wires which accompanied many of them, the real estate needed for the man-machine interface in the 727 was quite expansive.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x702/26763_1502610739_98dc5ab573bcacebbdf66476c88f02bd23a63f61.jp g

[aterpster]

33M,

Do you know where that pic was taken ? From the view out the windows (and the lack of a F/E seat), it appears to be a static display.
It appears to be the flight deck only,

[aterpster]

TWA paid extra to have the switches go in the "wrong" direction. Same for the 707, 880, and at least the DC-9-10.

[bafanguy]

It appears to be the flight deck only,

I'm going to guess it's in a museum judging from the dining tables. The Delta museum in KATL rents out the venue to non-av functions where dining is involved. I've never been there but should probably drop by to see if my pension check is on display since it's...history. :mad:

[DaveReidUK]

It appears to be the flight deck only,

It's the nose of ex EAL/FedEx 727-100C N8160G (19360) which is (was?) at the Boeing Future of Flight Center at Paine Field:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/560x377/4221021_6503bd50cd511debac26840f7a0fc661042b0a6f.jpg

Boeing 727-25C - Eastern Air Lines Aviation Photo #4221021 Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Eastern-Air-Lines/Boeing-727-25C/4221021/L)

[fantom]

TWA paid extra to have the switches go in the "wrong" direction. Same for the 707, 880, and at least the DC-9-10.
Somebody did the same to the A320. I was in USA in the sim and found them. Cannot remember who it was though.

[Airbubba]

Here's a 1983 UPI archive article on the end of 727 production:

Final production of Boeing 727July 26, 1983By MARTIN HEERWALD
SEATTLE -- The jetliner that has been decorated by a king, survived a Mach 1 dive and been a best-seller in commercial aviation since the early jet era is quitting while it's ahead.

The Boeing 727 will be taken out of production in August of next year, company officials have announced. They said the three-engine, medium-range plane has been the success story of the airways, far exceeding its early promise.Back in 1960, the Boeing Co. was keeping its fingers crossed that it would be able to place as many as 400 of the 727s in commercial airline fleets. They weren't even close.


When the last of the 727s comes off the line in August, 1984, it will be the No. 1,832. It will go to Federal Express, Boeing's newest commercial airplane customer.
Total 727 sales amount to more than $20 billion, and it's estimated 727s of all kinds have carried more than 2.2 billion passengers.

The 727 was first put into commercial service by United and Eastern Airlines in early 1964. In nearly 20 years of service under the flags of scores of carriers, the 727 has proven to be tough and durable.

Boeing spokesman Tom Cole said the popular trijet will be the first of Boeing's family of jetliners to go out of production. Military versions of the 707, the company's first jet transport, are still being produced.

Cole said the 727, the right plane at the right time for so many airlines around the world, must give way to newer, more fuel-efficient models.

Boeing hopes that when it comes time for airlines to replace their 727s over the next couple of decades, the successor will be the new 757. The twin-engine 757 already has proved it can carry 185 passengers at substantially less cost than the 727 can transport 145 customers.

But the 727 will be flying short-to-medium routes well into the 1990s.

Cole said nothing compares to the amazing sales success of the 727, which brought the jet age to many smaller airports around the world.

'It is far and away the most sold commercial airplane of any kind that has ever been built, and that includes all propeller airplanes,' he said.

'A lot of people think more DC-3s were produced than any other airplane, but there were only several hundred commercial models of the DC-3. The others were produced as military planes in World War II.'

Cole said the 727's closest rival in planes sold is the DC-9. McDonnell Douglas has taken orders for nearly 1,200 of the two-engine transport.

The 727 still is one of the quietest and most flexible transports, the Boeing spokesman said.

'We're sad to see it go, but we're not crying,' Cole said, 'because we're also glad to see progress toward a more efficient airplane.'

And there are episodes of glory to remember.

No one knows better the kind of punishment the trijet can take than King Hassan II of Morocco, who had good reason to 'pin' a medal on his 727 -- giving it the Head of the Order of the Throne, the kingdom's most cherished award.

The king was returning over the Mediterranean from France in 1972 when his escort of three Moroccan jet fighters suddenly turned enemy in a coup attempt and poured machine gun and cannon fire into the transport. One of the jets rammed the tail of the 727.

The pilot of the plane got on the radio and convinced the attackers they should quit firing because they had already killed the king. But that was a ruse. The badly damaged 727 managed to land at Rabat and King Hassan emerged without injury.

Boeing repaired the plane and restored it to service.

Trans World Airlines also can attest to the toughness of the 727.

In April 1979, a TWA 727 suddenly plunged from 39,000 feet to 5,000 feet in a tight, spiraling dive and was near the speed of sound when the pilot managed to pull out and level off.

TWA engineers spent more than a half-million dollars examining the aircraft, virtually taking it apart and putting it back together. They found 'absolutely no' structural damage. The dive was blamed on a freak performance of a wing slat.

The 727 was put back into service the same year, first as a training plane and later on regular commercial flights.



No, just had a look at the excellent data from Bafanguy and it shows the three we gave to Syria 9K AFB/C/D as -17Rs. ...



Years ago I believe you or somebody else here mentioned sheep being ritually bled to death in celebration of the planes' arrival in Damascus. The celebrants then put bloody handprints on the side of the aircraft. :eek:

[fantom]

Years ago I believe you or somebody else here mentioned sheep being ritually bled to death in celebration of the planes' arrival in Damascus. The celebrants then put bloody handprints on the side of the aircraft. :eek:[/left]
You have to live there to see/believe what goes on.

[gearlever]

Years ago I believe you or somebody else here mentioned sheep being ritually bled to death in celebration of the planes' arrival in Damascus. The celebrants then put bloody handprints on the side of the aircraft. :eek:

In the 80s I have seen it many times at Istanbul Atatürk airport.

[NWA SLF]

Regarding TWA 841 in 1979, it is inaccurate to say the airplane suffered no structural damage. It suffered substantial structural damage but was able to be repaired. CVR had mysteriously been erased, Captain "Hoot" Gibson was never cleared. Word through the aviation mechanics network was the FE was "fooling around" with a flight attendant who accidentally extended the #7 slat at FL 390. Most reports only state substantial damage but living by the TWA overhaul base at the time, I remember wings needing to be replaced. In a trial that awarded a passenger $50,000 in emotional distress, the court record state the wings were bent and the fuselage was wrinkled, yet it was repaired. Also testimony states the FE was in the lavatory at the time but as the CVR had been erased the crew was left with a less than honorable legacy. Still the 727 withstood a 6g loading yet recovered for a safe landing. Emotional distress? I would have accepted sitting in the bar with a free tab until a flight was arranged to take me on to MSP, the 727's destination.

[aterpster]

Regarding TWA 841 in 1979, it is inaccurate to say the airplane suffered no structural damage. It suffered substantial structural damage but was able to be repaired. CVR had mysteriously been erased, Captain "Hoot" Gibson was never cleared. Word through the aviation mechanics network was the FE was "fooling around" with a flight attendant who accidentally extended the #7 slat at FL 390. Most reports only state substantial damage but living by the TWA overhaul base at the time, I remember wings needing to be replaced. In a trial that awarded a passenger $50,000 in emotional distress, the court record state the wings were bent and the fuselage was wrinkled, yet it was repaired. Also testimony states the FE was in the lavatory at the time but as the CVR had been erased the crew was left with a less than honorable legacy. Still the 727 withstood a 6g loading yet recovered for a safe landing. Emotional distress? I would have accepted sitting in the bar with a free tab until a flight was arranged to take me on to MSP, the 727's destination.
Neither the FAA nor TWA took any action against the crew. There was no requirement to preserve the CVR in 1979. It is unknown whether the crew erased the CVR. It is known that the aircraft was on either APU or ground power so the CVR cycled more than 30 minutes.

I flew the airplane not long after it returned to service. The only wrinkled skin was around the lower, very aft portion of the fuselage. It was a -100 (-31 for TWA).

[DaveReidUK]

Word through the aviation mechanics network was the FE was "fooling around" with a flight attendant who accidentally extended the #7 slat at FL 390.

All the slats were extended. No 7, previously misaligned, subsequently failed to retract when the others did.

[stilton]

Neither the FAA nor TWA took any action against the crew. There was no requirement to preserve the CVR in 1979. It is unknown whether the crew erased the CVR. It is known that the aircraft was on either APU or ground power so the CVR cycled more than 30 minutes.

I flew the airplane not long after it returned to service. The only wrinkled skin was around the lower, very aft portion of the fuselage. It was a -100 (-31 for TWA).



From reading ‘scapegoat’ a recent book on
this incident( you may find interesting atrp) it seemed to be routine procedure on those days to delete the CVR after each flight


Not surprised the magnificent 727 stayed together that night though, Boeing builds a superb, strong aircraft

[Webby737]

I worked on many B727s back in the 90s but my favourites were the UPS -100s, they had been re-engined with RR Tays and retrofitted with a glass cockpit and head up display.
Did anyone here fly them ?

[Airbubba]

From reading ‘scapegoat’ a recent book onthis incident( you may find interesting atrp) it seemed to be routine procedure on those days to delete the CVR after each flight

When the CVR was introduced to U.S. carriers in the 1960's the erase button was demanded by ALPA due to privacy concerns of the crews. Of course, ALPA received assurances that the new CVR technology would only be used to improve safety and never for disciplinary or liability purposes.

The old CVR's recorded 30 minutes and the erase button cleared the whole recording. I believe on the 727 the parking brake had to be set and the engines shut down (or was it on external power?).

Ironically, to me anyway, current U.S. regs say the erase button can delete all but the last 30 minutes of the recording at any time, not just on the blocks:

(f) In complying with this section, an approved cockpit voice recorder having an erasure feature may be used, so that at any time during the operation of the recorder, information recorded more than 30 minutes earlier may be erased or otherwise obliterated.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/121.359 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/121.359)

A trend in recent years is for the NTSB to harvest what used to be labeled 'non-pertinent conversation' from the CVR. In the Colgan 3402 mishap a decade ago comments on commuting and sleeping in the crew lounge were included in the CVR transcript and even read into the Congressional Record.

[tdracer]

All the slats were extended. No 7, previously misaligned, subsequently failed to retract when the others did.

The story that was floating around Boeing at the time was that there was a belief that you could get a little better cruise speed and fuel burn if you extended the flaps a bit (flaps 1?) - but to do it you had to pull circuit breakers to keep the leading edge slats from also going out. Supposedly, the flight engineer was out of the cockpit and the pilots decided to try it - then the flight engineer came back in - saw the CBs out and put them back in. Due to the aero loads, only one set of slats deployed which immediately rolled the aircraft into a dive - which they managed to recover from only when the deployed stats were ripped off...
No idea of there is any truth to it...

I worked on many B727s back in the 90s but my favourites were the UPS -100s, they had been re-engined with RR Tays and retrofitted with a glass cockpit and head up display.
I was helping out on a flight line aircraft down at Boeing Field many years ago when one of those took off - at the time I didn't know about the re-engine but could hear an obvious difference. I was informed about the re-engine by one of the people I was working with. Good for fuel burn, but I think the main driver was noise (UPS normally operates in the middle of the night and was running into curfew problems with the JT8Ds). A while after that, UPS had an all engine flameout at cruise with the Tay installation (they got them re-started and landed safely). Anyway the FAA came to Boeing and wanted an explanation of how that could happen - and Boeing politely told them 'that engine installations is an STC, we were not involved and know almost nothing about it. Go talk to your people who granted the STC' :=

In the mid 1970s, Boeing was all set to launch a 727-300 program, using a re-fanned JT8D-200. United was to be the launch customer. But right before the planned launch announcement United suddenly got cold feet and pulled out and the program was quietly shelved. However the engine was eventually used for the MD-80.

[CONSO]

tdracer said " The story that was floating around Boeing at the time was that there was a belief that you could get a little better cruise speed and fuel burn if you extended the flaps a bit (flaps 1?) - but to do it you had to pull circuit breakers to keep the leading edge slats from also going out."
A VERY well placed WELL known good friend of mine ( deceased in 2004 ) who was a Boeing Engineer -ex Multi engine Military pilot- Boeing KC 135 delivery pilot- and a training pilot - at various times in his long career - and had been involved in training a Canadian chief pilot for Wardair on 727 ( whom I happened to meet .. long story ) when Wardair bought a 727 for a route from Vancouver to Ireland as I recall with a 727 !!- told me ( years later ) about the flap- circuit breaker method on 727 . So at least that part seems to be true.

And as to the 727 LE slat and dive story - dont know- but I do know of a jammed slat issue ( which required a change in first 3 or 4 767 slat linkages ) due to a one side jamming issue on first or second flight of 767- which resulted in a very hot landing at Paine . Spent a few interesting tooling hours on that :)

[CONSO]

And as to the other inadvertant dive stories - maybe- a bit of confusion with the 707 Pan Am 115 flight in 1958?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_115

During the rapid descent the copilot was unable to effect recovery. When the captain became aware of the unusual attitude of the aircraft he returned to the cockpit and with the aid of the other crew members was finally able to regain control of the aircraft at approximately 6,000 feet; they later made an emergency landing at Gander (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gander_International_Airport) with damaged flaps.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_115#cite_note-3)

One later "story" of that plane said that after it was returned to service with slightly bent wings- it had one of the best fuel burns of that model until retired years later

[speaker]

One of the best threads I can recall on Pprune for many years. Thanks everyone, fantastic memories!

[DaveReidUK]

In the mid 1970s, Boeing was all set to launch a 727-300 program, using a re-fanned JT8D-200. United was to be the launch customer. But right before the planned launch announcement United suddenly got cold feet and pulled out and the program was quietly shelved. However the engine was eventually used for the MD-80.

There were of course some 60 or so 727s, mostly -200s, that were partially re-engined with the re-fanned JT8D-217/-219 (the centre engine remained the original one as there wasn't enough room in the bay).

There are a dozen or so still flying, whereas the Tay 727QFs are all long gone.

[punkalouver]

One of the best threads I can recall on Pprune for many years. Thanks everyone, fantastic memories!
You're welcome.

[rog747]

There were of course some 60 or so 727s, mostly -200s, that were partially re-engined with the re-fanned JT8D-217/-219 (the centre engine remained the original one as there wasn't enough room in the bay.

Yes the Valsan RE and WL upgrade - with winglets - I think I recall Air Columbus coming into LGW with them and Cougar? - Not sure if Sabre AW had the RE as well?

Dan Air never went down any upgrade road for their 727-200's - They were starting to get 733's and 734's

[aterpster]

From reading ‘scapegoat’ a recent book on
this incident( you may find interesting atrp) it seemed to be routine procedure on those days to delete the CVR after each flightYes, we routinely pressed the erase button after parking the brakes my entire career.

[aterpster]

When the CVR was introduced to U.S. carriers in the 1960's the erase button was demanded by ALPA due to privacy concerns of the crews. Of course, ALPA received assurances that the new CVR technology would only be used to improve safety and never for disciplinary or liability purposes.

The old CVR's recorded 30 minutes and the erase button cleared the whole recording. I believe on the 727 the parking brake had to be set and the engines shut down (or was it on external power?).
My recollection was setting the parking brake. The 727 wasn't on external power unless the APU was inop.

Ironically, to me anyway, current U.S. regs say the erase button can delete all but the last 30 minutes of the recording at any time, not just on the blocks:
Camels and tents.

A trend in recent years is for the NTSB to harvest what used to be labeled 'non-pertinent conversation' from the CVR. In the Colgan 3402 mishap a decade ago comments on commuting and sleeping in the crew lounge were included in the CVR transcript and even read into the Congressional Record.
It has morphed significantly, as do most things involving government.

[bafanguy]

Re TWA 841: I vaguely recall a theory floated at the time, wholly unverified, that there was a practice at higher FLs of pulling the Leading Edge Isolation Valve c/b and extending the fist notch of flaps to improve stability (increased wing area ?). The first notch moved the flaps mostly aft vs down. The max altitude with flaps extended is FL200 as higher altitudes were not flight tested for mach effects.

With the c/b pulled, movement of the flap lever wouldn't allow hyd pressure to reach the LEDs.

As the story went, the F/E returned to the cockpit, saw the c/b popped and reset it allowing the LEDs to receive hyd press and extend to match the flap lever position resulting in the event.

I have a problem with that theory: The event occurred at night (2148 local time). So, we're to believe that the F/E entered a dark cockpit at night and saw one c/b popped on the P-6 panel among a forest of c/bs...in the dark and reset it without comment to the crew ?

I just don't think that passes the plausibility test.

Not long after that event, we got a bulletin about slat droop at the gate with no System A hyd press on them (not Krueger flaps...they always drooped with out pressure). There is an allowed amount of droop before MTC action is required. The explanation of excessive droop had something to do with cracks being found in the slat actuator retract lock ring...or some other component with the potential to let a slat not remain retracted.

Admittedly, my recall is fuzzy but that's what I remember.

aterpster ?

[Raffles S.A.]

Re TWA 841: I vaguely recall a theory floated at the time, wholly unverified, that there was a practice at higher FLs of pulling the Leading Edge Isolation Valve c/b and extending the fist notch of flaps to improve stability (increased wing area ?). The first notch moved the flaps mostly aft vs down. The max altitude with flaps extended is FL200 as higher altitudes were not flight tested for mach effects.

With the c/b pulled, movement of the flap lever wouldn't allow hyd pressure to reach the LEDs.

As the story went, the F/E returned to the cockpit, saw the c/b popped and reset it allowing the LEDs to receive hyd press and extend to match the flap lever position resulting in the event.

I have a problem with that theory: The event occurred at night (2148 local time). So, we're to believe that the F/E entered a dark cockpit at night and saw one c/b popped on the P-6 panel among a forest of c/bs...in the dark and reset it without comment to the crew ?

I just don't think that passes the plausibility test.

Not long after that event, we got a bulletin about slat droop at the gate with no System A hyd press on them (not Krueger flaps...they always drooped with out pressure). There is an allowed amount of droop before MTC action is required. The explanation of excessive droop had something to do with cracks being found in the slat actuator retract lock ring...or some other component with the potential to let a slat not remain retracted.

Admittedly, my recall is fuzzy but that's what I remember. aterpster ?

If the F/E found a popped CB, he should have first announced it before resetting it.

[tdracer]

A trend in recent years is for the NTSB to harvest what used to be labeled 'non-pertinent conversation' from the CVR. In the Colgan 3402 mishap a decade ago comments on commuting and sleeping in the crew lounge were included in the CVR transcript and even read into the Congressional Record.
Apologies for the thread drift, but in the case of Colgan 3402, IIRC wasn't root cause determined to crew error basically caused by excessive fatigue of the flight crew? I think you could make a pretty good case that the conversations regarding commuting and sleeping in the crew lounge were very pertinent with respect to crew fatigue.

[Raffles S.A.]

Yes the Valsan RE and WL upgrade - with winglets - I think I recall Air Columbus coming into LGW with them and Cougar? - Not sure if Sabre AW had the RE as well?

Dan Air never went down any upgrade road for their 727-200's - They were starting to get 733's and 734's


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1124/20170107_203501_152eb4c6a427dc94de03e2abf68ca2a7959bd494.jpg
Super 27 performance, granted we were on the light side.

[exeng]

Massive thread drift: how can we get into Colgan air from a great thread about the 727.


Kind regards
Exeng

[atakacs]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1124/20170107_203501_152eb4c6a427dc94de03e2abf68ca2a7959bd494.jpg
Super 27 performance, granted we were on the light side.

Probably ignorant here but anything special about those readings?

[Raffles S.A.]

Probably ignorant here but anything special about those readings?

2,000 ft/min rate of climb at 32,000 feet, much higher than a standard 727-200 even with -17 engines.

[jimtx]

If the F/E found a popped CB, he should have first announced it before resetting it.

My memory is hazy but I believe there were two circuit breakers associated with the leading edge devices, a "leading edge valves" and a "LEFUS". I never saw it done but pulling one would allow you to extend the flaps without the LEDs. One rumor was that they were trying out the idea and didn't understand the system that well and pulled the wrong CB.

[bafanguy]

2,000 ft/min rate of climb at 32,000 feet, much higher than a standard 727-200 even with -17 engines.

Yep... that's fun to watch. Must've been "...on the light side.".

I see "ALT SELECT" armed so must be a Block 5 autopilot ? It was an improvement over the standard Bloc 4 which required you to pay attention and select ALT HLD or bust the altitude.

I got to prefer the Sperry F/D with a separate bar for roll and pitch vs the Collins FD 108/109 with the "bat wings".

[tdracer]

There were of course some 60 or so 727s, mostly -200s, that were partially re-engined with the re-fanned JT8D-217/-219 (the centre engine remained the original one as there wasn't enough room in the bay).

Perhaps hearsay, but I was told that Pratt wanted to go with a larger fan on the JT8D-200 series, but was limited by the center inlet capabilities (apparently Boeing was willing to re-engineer the engine mount for the larger fan, but not the S-duct). Going with a larger diameter fan would have given the JT8D-200 better fuel burn and perhaps a bit more thrust capability.
If true, Boeing actually managed to hurt the performance of the MD-80 :rolleyes:

[Raffles S.A.]

Yep... that's fun to watch. Must've been "...on the light side.".

I see "ALT SELECT" armed so must be a Block 5 autopilot ? It was an improvement over the standard Bloc 4 which required you to pay attention and select ALT HLD or bust the altitude.

I got to prefer the Sperry F/D with a separate bar for roll and pitch vs the Collins FD 108/109 with the "bat wings".

I also prefer the cross hairs. The "alt sel" function has to be engaged each time after changing the altitude in the alert window, so we made a standard callout, "XXXX set, alt sel armed".

[DaveReidUK]

Perhaps hearsay, but I was told that Pratt wanted to go with a larger fan on the JT8D-200 series, but was limited by the center inlet capabilities (apparently Boeing was willing to re-engineer the engine mount for the larger fan, but not the S-duct). Going with a larger diameter fan would have given the JT8D-200 better fuel burn and perhaps a bit more thrust capability.
If true, Boeing actually managed to hurt the performance of the MD-80 :rolleyes:

Yes, I was wondering that after I wrote it.

I'm not that familiar with the engineering of the 727, but from what I remember of the similar Trident, there was room to hold a party in the centre engine bay. So I'm quite prepared to accept that it was intake flow constraints rather than physical space in the bay that prevented the replacement of the 727 centre engine.