Which taildragger to learn in?

[AerBabe]

I would love to do some Tiger Moth flying next summer, so want to get some taildragging experience first. The guy I did my GFT with has offered me training in a Chipmunk or Kitfox, the 'advantage' of the former being that he's an aerobatics instructor too. :eek:

I'm in no real hurry, so what do you guys think about these aeroplanes? (;) Stik) Or would you recommend something completely different? :)

[IanSeager]

Of those two it's a no-braner, go for the Chipmunk.

Ian

[camaro]

Chippie every time. You would also be keeping it in the DeHaviland stable!:)

[LowNSlow]

Chippie for sure.

Why not go to Cambridge (I think) and get some taildragger time on a Tiger Moth :D

[QDMQDMQDM]

Kitfox will be an order of magnitude cheaper, if that's important to you.

QDM

[Crossedcontrols]

In addition to the Chippie.
If you find yourself in the USA between now and next year you could do worse than some time in a J3 Cub. It woud be less than 100 dollars per hour including the instructor.
Flying a J3 in Florida with no door is superb. Also supercubs in Arizona for about the same price.
Don't know how this new FAA thing will affect you.

Keep those feet moving.

CC

[QDMQDMQDM]

Keep those feet moving

And the stick BACK, BACK, BACK!

;)

QDM

[stiknruda]

Aerbabe you babe!

Read this last night and rather than auto-respond, I cogitated overnight.

The Chipmunk is a delight to fly with beautifully harmonised controls and is a descendant (well almost) of the DH82A Tiger moth.

However they are probably quite expensive to rent, mind you - once you've mastered it in the circuit then you can go and do very gentle "Sunday morning aeros" and even some benign spins.

The Kitfox would probably work out a whole lot cheaper, though. I have only about 40 mins in an early variant some time ago but IIRC it is very prone to PIO or phugoids. Something techie to do with low speed/weight and quite a powerful elevator. I must confess that I did not really fall in love with it but as a device to show you what your feet are for on the ground and during the take-off roll and then roll out it might be sensible to start on this for an hour or two.

It might be financially sensible to do some time on both, with the idea that you'd actually finish off on the Chipmunk.

Other aeroplanes that are worth considering are Taylorcraft, Aeroncas and as stated the J3/L4 Cubs and some of the smaller Jodels. Being an impecunious stude rock-chick, it might even be worth casting your eyes further than just Coventry.

Of course, as previously discussed you are always welcome to have a go in my Pushpak to give you some idea what the whole thing is about!

I'd also recommend a look at Plourde's book, The Complete Taildragger but probably not until you're almost ready to do your conversion. I understand that Cubair at Redhill produce a good little tailwheel primer that a 'phone call and a bit of girlie charm might procure for you!

Cheers


Stik

[Genghis the Engineer]

The Kitfox is a PFA homebuilt so isn't legally useable for training anyway. The PFA usually recommend for anybody planning to fly a Kitfox that they train for it on a taildragger version of the Thruster.

Stick with the Chipmunk and save your instructor from breaking the law. It's also almost certainly the best trainer for a Tiger Moth.

G

[Lowtimer]

Aerbabe,

As others have said the Chipmunk is completely delightful, but tends to be quite expensive to hire - especially since the engine only lasts a maximum 1000 TBO on a public transport C of A. As you're close to Coventry you are also probably handy for Sywell, and could have a go in their 90-horse Super Cub. It is pleasant to fly, relatively inexpensive to hire, and the airfield has three grass runways so you can usually take off and land reasonably into wind.

And later you can have a go at their Moth or Pitts S2 for a further challenge.

Both the Super Cub and the Chipmunk are straightforward to fly and make for a fairly non-daunting introduction to taildraggers if you're accustomerd to the mainstream "modern" (i.e. 1950s technology) light aeroplane. The Tiger Moth, having no brakes at all, decidedly pre-war ailerons and a somewhat relaxed approach to yaw stability, has an altogether more old-fashioned feel, and is a much bigger step away from a tri-gear Cessna or Cherokee. I don't mean this as a criticism of the Tiggie - some people find these peculiarities endearing, others not to their taste.

Hope this helps... (edited for spelling)

[foghorn]

Is there still a chippie for hire with an instructor at Shoreham?

cheers!
foggy.

[Mark 1]

I heard some rumours that the Condor might be back at Hinton and available for rent.

Nice to fly and probably a lot cheaper than a chippie.

But having said that you probably won't regret spending a few hours on a chippie - a real classic.

[Taildragger]

Aerbabe....... I am astonished. There is only one taildragger in the world that matters, and you have flown in it with me.!!
How fickle you are.!!

[MLS-12D]

AerBabe,

Choose the Chipmunk. As others have said, if you stay within the DeHavilland family, the Tiger Moth will be more familiar when you get to it next year.

MLS-12D :)

P.S. You can't go wrong with a genuine Canadian design! :D

[BRL]

Foggy The last I heard the chippy is still available at Shoreham......
(If your thinking of coming down here, let us know and we'll meet up or something. I owe you a few pints remember... :D )

[Bluebeard]

Did my taildragger training on Turweston's Citabria, didn't have problems at all despite being generally a bit rusty (me, that is, not the aircraft:D). It has a fairly level attitude so it makes life easier on the ground where all the fun happens.

I've also done about an hour on Hinton's Condor which is very much back in service. Again, very docile on the ground, and very nice in the air too

[Southern Cross]

Try the Supercub at Panshangar.

[AerBabe]

Thanks for all saying the Chippie... it was my preferred option! I know there are all sorts of great places round the country to fly taildraggers from, but I can't travel yet, and can't afford much. The Chipmunk is based at Husbands Bosworth, and (to me) seems very cheap. Plus I know the guy, and we get on, which is very important to me (especially if he's going to be making me fly upside down :( )

Taildragger, of course if you want to let me fly yours for nothing I'd be more than happy ;)

Stik, when I can finally escape the lab (hopefully October) I'd love to come and fly with you. If you'll still have me of course :cool:

[A and C]

I think that i would start with the cheapest taildragger I could find and that would probably be a cub.

With the money saved you could then get checked out in the chipmunk as well.

Just for taildragger training the chipmunk is to expencive but when it comes to the aerobatics it is worth every penny and is probably a better trainer that high powered aircraft such at the Extra 300.

[NearlyStol]

Got to be an Auster !
Tame one of these and you will eat the rest.
Used to be available at Skegness, but I am not
up to date on this.:) :) :) :)

[Circuit Basher]

Aerbabe - all my early light aircraft flying was done in the back of a Chippie as an air cadet - great fun!

First 3 hrs of my PPL were in a Chippie (BDIC at ANT, Blackpool) - probably about 2.5 hrs of those were spent attempting to taxi it!! Mind you, I was a youthful 18 year old then and not aging / grey as I am now....!!

I vote for the Chippie, but have never experienced an Auster / Cub / Citabria / Moth, so maybe should keep my mouth shut due to lack of experience. A major part of my vote comes from the Gypsy Major experience - an absolute classic sound (so that covers Auster and Moth as well!).

[A and C]

It is clear that You have never had to maintain the "good old gypsy major" in the hangar it is an oil drenched pig to work on.

From the tiger moth to the trident De havilland have made the worst aircraft that I have ever worked on fortunatly that dose not stop the chippie being a delight to fly.

[QDMQDMQDM]

My Cub lives at the Auster capital of Britain -- Eggesford, with, I believe, 9 flying and 13 Austers in total -- so I'd better be careful what I say, but... by God the Gypsy is a noisy engine to fly behind. And thirsty too -- 30 litres an hour plus a couple of litres of oil.

Pays your money, takes your choice.

QDM

[formationfoto]

If you can get it at the right price go for the Chipmunk. Pig to own - great to fly. I fly both Chippy and Tiger Moth. Very different handling. DH obviously did some homework between designs. The Chippy is a great handler, can't think I have flown anything better for 'feel'. The Tiger is just great fun but forget crispness and harmonisation.

For training I would go Chipmunk or Super Cub with a slight prefence for the Piper beast as they should be slightly cheaper. The alternative is to go straight to the Tiger as once you have mastered that the chippy should be easy.

Once converted, mounts such as the Jodel D11 series are a good option for cheap(ish) but responsive taildragger time.

If you take up the offer from Stik I can probably arrange trips in each of the types above at a location only a few miles from Stik International.

I had a share in a Kitfox a few years ago and to be honset I would not call it a good coversion mount nor a delight to fly. If you are cash limited after conversion and want to build taildragger hours it is an O.K option but I wouldn't start with it (although it does depend on the model a little).

Glad to see you have realised 'wheel at the back' is better. Skid at the back is even better.

[AerBabe]

Thank you everyone for your input, what a fine resource this forum is :)

FF thank you for that, very kind! I'll keep you posted with my ETA... hopefully won't be too late in the year :rolleyes:

[Hairyplane]

Hi AerBabe

Why not take a break and get yourself across to Clacton for some Cub time?

Best fish, chips and mushie peas in the universe.

Once you have some tailwheel time, let me know and I'll give you a go in one of my vintage machines.

I promise to wear a paper bag if you insist on buying me a beer afterwards!

I learned on Condors. Great tailwheel trainer. I doubt whether you will find anybody offering Condors these days but hopefully somebody out there will prove me wrong.

Anyway, if I was going to do it all again I'd go to Clackers for a week. You can always go on the beach shell-suit spotting when you aren't flying.

[Hairyplane]

Sounds as though the Gypsy engines being discussed here need overhauling.

I flew behind my 10/2 to Stockholm and back. In 26 hours it used 3 litres of oil. 30 litres of fuel ain't bad either??

It is a Vintec overhaul with all the mods.

My other vintage type is powered by a Gypsy 1 - this time a Rollason overhaul and without the ring mod so it does chuck a bit of oil out - probably a half-litre per hour even when being driven hard in display practise.

Whip the cowlings off at the end of every flyiing day and wipe the engine down - it will not be an 'oil soaked pig' or anything like.

Leave it and I am sure it will quickly become nasty.

A bit of pride in ownership pays dividends. Pulling cowlings off to reveal an oil-soaked pig does suggest that soething is lacking here (other than oil that is...).

It is quite gratifying to listen to the wows when I remove the cowlings at a fly-in. Keep it nice - thats all. Takes 5 minutes with a rag.

Great engine - huge contribution to our light aircraft industry. Don't forget that these motors date back to the 30's. View them in that context and be kind!

[LowNSlow]

I'm with NearlyStol, try an Auster; with a free castoring tailwheel and a main undercarriage designed by the chap who got the credit for the kangaroo and the wallabie, they make life interesting :D

Hairyplane, I'm with you, there isn't a seriously leaky Gypsy in the hangar at Rush Green. Even my Cirrus doesn't leak that much (12 year old Norvic rebuild). :D :D

[foghorn]

Big red L -

Thanks - I'll definitely plan a trip down sometime. I fancy getting a tailwheel signoff.

cheers!
foggy.

[Legalapproach]

Would recommend the Chippie. I did my tailwheel convertion in one with Flying Lawyer. Fun and fairly easy to land. Have flown about 20 different tailwheel types since and would still say go for the Chippie.

FL - have just checked my logbook and it says 1985 surely neither of us are that old?

[poetpilot]

Don't get me wrong I love Chippies. I owned half a share in one in the 1980s. But expensive they certainly are. If you want to get LOTS of time in at a more affordable rate, why not try Tatenhill's Citabria first (to get the fundamentals done) before moving on to Chippies?

Most of the other types mentioned are great in terms of experience but scarce in terms of legal training opportunities (though Cubs/Super Cubs are to be found at a few places) & even scarcer in terms of affordable hourly rates...

What you want is to get that "tailwheel complex" stuff signed off in the logbook at an affordable amount, and then get on to savouring the various types on offer thereafter. Otherwise you may well get confused with the different types, as they all have their own delightful little quirks and nuances.

[BlueRobin]

Poet makes a lot of sense. I've booked in at Clacton in September for the Cub farm strip course. Gotta start somewhere. All this different type stuff can come later. ;)

Eight hours, more grass experience and 2 nights accommodation for a few quid shy of 800 nicker. Hey make a weekend of it?

Aerbabe, Baginton will seem miles long afterwards... :)

[Final 3 Greens]

The Cub is a forgiving taildragger.

A&C - didn' realise that the gripper was a tail dragger or did I over rotate???? :rolleyes:

[AerBabe]

BlueRobin... it already seems long :rolleyes: My instructor used to love making me do spot landings and see how quickly I could stop. Love a good challenge ;)

The farm strip course has already been suggested to me, and I will hopefully do it some time next year (depending on when someone is foolish enough to give me a job). Seems like a very good deal. Enjoy yourself, and let me know how you do :)

[QDMQDMQDM]

The Cub is a forgiving taildragger.

It is indeed and this is a long thread, slightly done to death, but FWIW...

Harvey S. Plourde, he of 'The Compleat Taildragger', advocates one of the lower powered cubs -- i.e. 65HP -- as ideal for learning taildragging on. He reckons the Super Cubs (I presume he means 135hp up) have too much power and don't give you a really good feel and understanding for the various torque / gyropscopic forces etc. as it's all over too quickly.

I can see his point. In a 150HP Super Cub you're off the ground pretty much before you know what's happened and in the early days it's just a question of lots of frantic footwork and then a desperate leap into the air. Lower power would give you more time to suss things out.

Like I say, just a thought. Anyway, at the risk of getting flamed about it (again) -- buy his book! ;)

QDM