Dont Apply To Cathay

[Apollo19]

Pilots

There are plenty of posts out there talking of issues within Cathay. This company is in desperate need of pilots. Do not come here. The reasons to stay away are plainly stated throughout this site. Cathay’s hubris will not let them recover in any meaningful way. As they expand their net to get more pilots do not be lulled into coming here: it is in no way worth it. Gone are the Halcyon days of big money and bases. Worse yet, they have been given the answer to the problem but refuse to act. It’s sad to see a once great airline ruined by ego.

Forewarned

[cxorcist]

Pilots

There are plenty of posts out there talking of issues within Cathay. This company is in desperate need of pilots. Do not come here. The reasons to stay away are plainly stated throughout this site. Cathay’s hubris will not let them recover in any meaningful way. As they expand their net to get more pilots do not be lulled into coming here: it is in no way worth it. Gone are the Halcyon days of big money and bases. Worse yet, they have been given the answer to the problem but refuse to act.

Forewarned

100% correct and will be 100% ignored by inexperienced (non-) pilots with SJS. CX still has a reputation within the industry that is in no way deserved in this decade. Things will only get worse. It’s a fact; but young, gullible, wet behind the ear puppy dogs won’t believe us. CX will persist attacking pilots until there is nothing left. Those joining on CoS18 are signing up for little more than indentured servitude. Even single pilots will be so poor in HK that they will be literally running home to mommy and daddy on their days off. It will be their best option.

[Ecam321]

Indeed, young inexperienced pilots don’t come to CX, you may need or want a job that pays well and gives you valuable experience and CX is the place. But if you come you will ruin it for the poor old A/B scale guys desperate to bank more money, buy more houses and feather there nest for retirement. Think about them when you selflessly turn down you job at CX.

[Staggers]

It’s “their” old chap not “there”. If you want to wind us up you have to remember we were here 😂 long before you or spell checkers were.

[Meikleour]

Staggers: If you are going to act as "spelling police" then get your own spelling in order! HEAR/HERE! ! Unless of course you meant you were used to listening.

[Staggers]

Oh dear I am a senile old sod well spotted stepped on my own dxxk there! I’d better go back to reminiscing about how we did it on the L1011😂.

[Meikleour]

Staggers (https://www.pprune.org/members/21677-staggers) : A real measure of the "old CX" would be if you remember/experienced the 3 hour Noel Jones debriefs!!! I only experienced it once on command training and it almost resulted in a physical response.

[Good Business Sense]

Staggers (https://www.pprune.org/members/21677-staggers) : A real measure of the "old CX" would be if you remember/experienced the 3 hour Noel Jones debriefs!!! I only experienced it once on command training and it almost resulted in a physical response.

"Thumbwheel" :-)

[Tea time]

Make sure your at the correct “oil Level” it took me a while to figure out he was referring to eye level

[Kitsune]

Flap or Flaps...

[Jn14:6]

'Down, three green' (singular!)

[Porterboy]

I feel like your message would be better received by pilots aspiring to work at Cathay (at least DESO/DEFO's) if it was communicated more like this: "Don't apply to Cathay. We have been fighting for better working conditions for far too long now. We need more pressure on the company which is made easier if people stop applying. This is for YOUR direct benefit because once the resumes stop piling in for long enough, the company will have no choice but to raise the pay and improve conditions. At that point, you'd be smart to think about applying again because this company was and can be a great place to work if things are changed. The current pay and conditions make it difficult/borderline impossible to live in a 500 square foot apartment and the majority of the contract is amendable at the company's discretion, including pay and benefits which will no doubt be decreased. There is much room for improvement and you stand to directly benefit from not applying or at the very least not accepting an offer until a better contract is presented to the pilot group (unless you're scud running a 1900 in Mali getting bombed every night...)."

Start making it about them, not you, and you'll find much more support. I'm on your side, but you guys need to re-read your posts before you send them and to think about how it would have come across to yourself years ago when when you were applying to the airline. If you guys aren't willing to strike, the only thing you can really do to make things better is to try to convince people that working at CX shouldn't be something that's desirable. It shouldn't be that hard to do, but I'll take a wild guess that tons of people are still flocking to HK given that the company feels confident in offering COS18. The cadets are another story though. I wouldn't doubt it if, for a lot of them, COS18 is an upgrade in life or at least on par since most of them are just finishing high school/university. They don't have a ton of choices in HK aviation wise with no experience, and they do not have GA/regionals like in OZ, USA, Canada. Labour laws make it impossible to go to another country for experience unless they hold dual citizenship. I'd assume that most of them are applying to CX because they love flying, which I'm sure most of you did too at some point in your life. My guess is that the only way you could get across to someone like that is to tell them how Cathay has destroyed your love for flying in a relatable way, because it'll be hard to find sympathy from them when talking about how much you're paid.

Sincerely,
Someone who will no longer apply unless things are improved.

[bringbackthe80s]

My advice is still the same: come to Europe and do 4 legs every day for 85 hours a month. On minimum legal rest.

[Sholayo]

I have a request: to Apollo19 and others - please name a company which is hiring now and offer good work conditions. When reading PPRUNE my impression is that this is worst time to become a pilot ever.
However the whole reason I am even on this forum is because if I compare current job market to what I could see throughout my entire life now it is best time ever to get hired. And if Cathay is hiring - I would go there in a heartbeat. Again - if not there - WHERE?

&

[Air Profit]

Forty three...and you want to be sitting as an SO for up to 5 years, with no flying, and on a package that will barely allow you a modest lifestyle (with a family, forget it). Ok, come on in...the water is lovely :rolleyes:

[Slasher1]

I would submit that, when cost of living is considered, many US regionals would offer more (real) flying experience, better pay (what you need to make depends entirely on where you live), real work rules, CASS/KCM, and a better future and lifestyle. Probably being more fun and a better work environment to boot. Even better with the majors.

You might not get a shiny new jet (although many are) and will spend more time actually working (i.e. actually flying). You won't get to galavant around Asia and CX generally takes better care of you on the road.

So it depends on what you are looking for. If barely eeking by living in a shoebox and watching air go by (facing declining future conditions as different factions of your workforce are divided against each other and conquered) is for you by all means have a go. Things ain't gonna get better until the healing begins--there's no indication of this ever happening (indeed the wounds from the early 2000s were never addressed and have continued to fester and get worse with the various purges not helping things).

In fact, I think the only thing that's really changed for the better is information availability of what someone is getting themselves into.

[Pfly3]

I did my interview about 6 months ago and I was offered a DEFO position on the B747. Anyway, after I did my math I realized this package is not worth to relocate on the other side of the world to be working as an FO for at least 15 years.

HK is a very nice, fun and international city but if you don't have money forget even to barely reach the quality life you had back in Europe. Apart from the expensive houses and the bad quality you get in return, what shocked me most was the costs for food. My wife and I went around a few grocery shops and we were surprised by what we found out, expensive products and not always the first choice. Also if you looking at dining out in a good restaurant you would pay at least 40% more than what you are used back home. Anyway if you can live eating mostly Chinese products of doubtful origin you will be fine.

On top of this with Cos18 is not clear if you can commute home or any base abroad would be available in the future so plan to be living in HK the rest of your life.

Long story short HK can be a great place to live if you have enough money, Cos18 doesn't give you enough money or opportunity for a quality life (commuting)

For those of you asking which other companies offer better working conditions if you are a FO go to places like EasyJet and in 4 years you'll get your command having a great quality life if you are a CPT go to China 8 years there and than you can plan for an early retirement. It's very sad to have to compare a once elite Airline with those places but this is what it is.

Sorry for the rant and good luck everybody

[Sam Ting Wong]

Slasher, US is out of reach for Cathay new-joiners.
I haven't seen a Green Card holder among cadets or DFO for more than 10 years. Those who do join are from countries with extremely low pay or with zero experience. Which is the reason why advocating not to join is useless. I flew with one guy recently who was very pleased he could go on a trip without worrying about the safety of his family. Go figure.

Pfly3, I agree, DFO on COS18 with a secured job in Europe probably difficult to sell. Maybe if your wife can work in HK as well or you like to live in South East Asia. What I don't understand :why the rant? You received a job offer, nobody is forcing you to accept it. I have doubts you are what you say, the type of anger you display is typically only achieved after joining and a few years in the company :-))
Anyway, the main recruitment into Cathay is via the cadet scheme, DFO's are a thing of the past.

[MACH.88]

I wouldn’t be so sure that DEFOs are a thing of the past. The question is would CX even be able to attract suitable candidates?

MACH.88😎

[Springbok614]

I wouldn’t be so sure that DEFOs are a thing of the past. The question is would CX even be able to attract suitable candidates?

MACH.88😎

Declined a DEFO interview with Cathay when they expected me to pay for a language proficiency exam... they are obviously not desperate for experienced crew and doubt they are attracting experience. Legacy carrier spiralling interview costs down onto eligible candidates... pffft...

[stevieboy330]

I totally understand guys wanting to come to CX, back in the day I would have done anything to get in, actually I did ! I studied for the interview for months, I had 5000 good hours & felt like the luckiest person I the world when I was offered a position. I was hired as B scale, I bought & sold in HK a few times etc, I made money, I flew all over the world. However, I can honestly say I don't think there are very many workplaces in, or out of aviation that is as as negative as the cockpit of a Cathay jet. It's a hard place to be, a lot of the time.
It truly is a toxic place to work & its getting worse, not better.
Pilots HATE management & management seem to HATE the Pilots. Cabin crew & ground staff have little regard for the Pilots & the culture is one of dobbing in & reporting work colleagues, (though not in the cockpit thankfully). I can't imagine many Pilots at Cathay would say "yeah come to CX you will like it" & at the end of the day, that's probably all you need to know. Sorry to tell you but coming to Cathay is very likely a decision you will regret a lot. CX will also leave you feeling very unhappy, financially stressed & worst of all your time could have been spent getting a better result elsewhere. It's probably a mistake to stay for most but that's a whole other, more complicated situation & story for most who have already travelled a long way down the CX path & invested a lot since joining........Nobody joining now can say they were not warned, nor should they complain when they get to HK & discover their new reality.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I have a different view for what it's worth.

There are two main problems with Cathay in my opinion, and I think both create negative views as above.


Numer one, and by far the biggest factor:

you will be based in Hong Kong if you start employment with Cathay. Forget basings, they will be out of reach for anyone joining now. This means you either accept this place as your residence, or you commute and become miserable from day one. Hong Kong can be a problematic city for Westerners. It is relatively expensive, heavily polluted at times, humid and very hot in summer, and if you don't commit yourself to years of studying Chinese, your social life will be comprised of other expats. Housing is usually a small flat in a high rise, international schools have high debentures and monthly fees, Western food is dear. You will live a typical expat life, because of the language barrier excluded from most cultural offerings, local people will likely remain a mystery to you. Most pilots do not get used to the city, regardless of their contract. That is the main problem. Cathay is based in Hong Kong and that is that. Check for yourself if you like it here, and most importantly, if your family does. I personally don't find it that bad, I like the mentality of the locals, I like the fact that I can travel around Asia easily, it is bearable for me here. I enjoy the comfort of a live-in nanny, the low tax system,the fantastic public transport, and the general international vibe. I married a local and my kids speak Chinese. I love the local kitchen and I buy most of my groceries on layovers. I am on B scale, so if the lower package you will get offered is sufficient to you is something you need to evaluate for yourself. It will largely depend on your alternatives of course, a point that many colleagues miracously find very hard to digest. Do not count on improvements of your package after joining, this will be in vain.Some C scale pilots are currently in the painfull process of realizing this, and some of the extreme comments are the result of it. Many colleagues, especially those in here, do not like Hong Kong, period. Fair enough. But in my observation, this is independent from the package they are on, lots of B scale pilots are miserable, see the commentator above. In my opinion, the crucial point is if you are really willed to spend your life in Hong Kong. Those who don't like the local people, the culture, the food or the density are having a hard time. These people end up frustrated, and some then go on to blame the company for their misery. Don't make this mistake. I have to honestly admit, I also have my days where I had it, but almost always is the reason not Cathay, but rather the job itself: the jetlag, the pollution, the weather etc. I sometimes miss my family, my friends, my car and my home country, but in general Cathay has treated me well. I really can't blame them for my decision to join.

Reason number two affects the entire industry. Conditions get worse, everywhere, since decades now, and except maybe at American majors there is no end in sight. This is a psychological burden that is very irritating. Cathay has to survive in this toxic market, plus unfortunately still suffers from serious management mistakes and other effects like increased local competition. Most pilots here see Cathay as the villain, but in my opinion this is largely scape goating for a very challenging industry as a whole. Tough labor negotiations taking place as we speak don't help either, and Hong Kong legislation is not very labour-friendly to put it mildly. Most colleagues been here so long, they don't know the reality outside of the bubble anymore. They have no idea what life at a low cost airline really means, at cargo airlines, in the corporate sector. They don't know how hard you have to work at most places, they don't know how meagre your net pay after massive taxes usually really is. They have, at least in my opinion, a nostalgic and at times sentimental viewpoint.

Take all insights with a pinch of salt, mine included. Make up your own mind.

[main_dog]

STW, whilst I don’t always agree with you, the above is a very good and balanced post.

[Flaender]

STW, I understand your sentiment quite well as I have been surrounded by it for 10+ years.
I would rather look back at my career and look in the mirror knowing that I tried to push back against the deterioration of our contracts (or as a minimum slow down the rot) and the lies, deceit and immoral behavior of (y)our masters than give in to your defeatist attitude and/or the "I'm allright Jack-Syndrome".

You're not wrong, but the fact that your attitude is a majority one is the reason the profession is in decline.
Granted: you faired better than I did, since my efforts seem to have been in vain.
Good luck to you and yours in Hong Kong and cx.

[Roy De Kantzow]

I personally don't find it that bad,.... it is bearable for me here.

STW - I find your summary generally accurate and balanced... however.... above I have taken a snippet from your post. Is it worth living a life that is 'not that bad' and 'bearable'?! You get one shot at it...

Personally, I have found Hong Kong hollow and boring. That's not to say we had a decent time there... it's just not somwhere I personally want to spend the rest of my life. Certainly not in this day and age. Maybe in the time of the A-Scalers when you work in HKG for 20 years make really good money and retire at 55. Those days are gone. Join CX with eyes wide open!

Otherwise, nice summary!

[unitedabx]

STW

I think the question is " will you be able or want to retire here ?" For the vast majority the answer is "NO". HKG and CX is a temporary ( perhaps 30 year ) posting but definately not a place you want to retire to.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Roy, totally agree. Best would be a place to live that you really like and enjoy. If the move to HK is worth it is up to the individual. I find my personal alternatives (low cost, contract or corporate) overall less attractive, even if they would allow me a residence somewhere else. In the end it is all about the options you have, isn't it? If my choice was the right one I will tell you after my last day at work :)

United, I do not want to retire to HK. But why would that be relevant? I totally agree, HK is a temporary place to live ( as all are:-), at least for me.

[unitedabx]

Roy, totally agree. Best would be a place to live that you really like and enjoy. If the move to HK is worth it is up to the individual. I find my personal alternatives (low cost, contract or corporate) overall less attractive, even if they would allow me a residence somewhere else. In the end it is all about the options you have, isn't it? If my choice was the right one I will tell you after my last day at work :)

United, I do not want to retire to HK. But why would that be relevant? I totally agree, HK is a temporary place to live ( as all are:-), at least for me.



STW my retire to Hong Kong point is " if it's so good here ( HKG ) then why do 99% of all expats leave ? Every local I talk to has the same plan ie to work until they can go elsewhere and work or retire. So for a pilot why would you come here in the first place only to spend the next 20-30 years planning your escape.

[Sam Ting Wong]

United, if you read my post carefully, you will notice I never claimed that HK is great. Your argument, a city is only acceptable as residence if it is a place you would retire to would probably seen by many people on this planet as utopian luxury. After all, you joined yourself and I get a sense you might not retire here.

My point is that Cathay is based in Hong Kong and that is that. Anyone who wants to join has to accept HK as residence. I also mentioned that it is vital for every applicant to evaluate the available accomodation, the food price, the school fees etc. Only the individual can make a final judgement, simply because it depends on his or her other options, personal circumstances, preferences, goals etc.

May I ask you, united: why did YOU join?

[unitedabx]

United, if you read my post carefully, you will notice I never claimed that HK is great. Your argument, a city is only acceptable as residence if it is a place you would retire to would probably seen by many people on this planet as utopian luxury. After all, you joined yourself and I get a sense you might not retire here.

My point is that Cathay is based in Hong Kong and that is that. Anyone who wants to join has to accept HK as residence. I also mentioned that it is vital for every applicant to evaluate the available accomodation, the food price, the school fees etc. Only the individual can make a final judgement, simply because it depends on his or her other options, personal circumstances, preferences, goals etc.

May I ask you, united: why did YOU join?





STW I totally respect your opion and post. I joined back in the 1980's on A scale when CX was the airline of choice for every pilot in the world. A CX pilot was elite. 3000 hours minimum on a medium size jet to get an interview, unfrozen ATPL and the prospect of a quick command within 4 years. The good old days I know but they were great days when CX was great. It saddens me that in the last 20 years CX has gone from the very best airline in the world from every aspect to near the bottom if not the very bottom.

[Farman Biplane]

United, I think you will find there are much worse gigs out there in the other reality.
I thought you had announced your retirement anyway?

[Flava Saver]

If it’s that bad... why haven’t the masses quit. Numbers speak volumes, and that ain’t happening.

[controlledrest]

If it’s that bad... why haven’t the masses quit. Numbers speak volumes, and that ain’t happening.

The only reason many of us stay is seniority. Have you heard of it? It is a scheme agreed by airline management at the introduction of jets when jet type ratings were conducted in the aircraft. The ratings were a major expense and at the time jet pilots were in high demand. With seniority if one changes companies one starts at the bottom. If I could change employer at the same rank or higher I would be gone. Economists will tell you one factor which gives employees power is 'mobility of labour' - the ability to change jobs. We don't have it. So year after year cost cutting focused management can screw us over. CX doesn't even have the supposed positives of seniority - we have had direct entry commands and first officers in the past, we can't use it for fleet changes, it doesn't really work for staff travel and we don't have it for leave and rostering. CX is a truely ****** place to work. I hate the company. I do nothing extra to help them and at the moment I can't move to a better job. No other profession has seniority. As an industry we have to get rid of it if we want to see conditions improve as we would have the power of mobility of labour.

[OK4Wire]

All true, CR. Although I read (somewhere) that seniority was introduced even earlier, in the late '40s as startups scrambled for experienced war-time crews. Maybe that was only in the States, not world-wide.

If only I had the mobility that my 26 year old Doctor son has.

[kahaha]

I joined back in the 1980's on A scale when CX was the airline of choice for every pilot in the world. A CX pilot was elite. .

Rose tinted spectacles alert !

Elite? C'mon, working out in the far east, when HK was a dirty, down trodden colony?

Choice of every pilot? Not true, it was the choice some pilots had to make after failing to secure employment with their national airline. Or were ejected from the military, and called up their squadron mates.
Back in the '80s was the hey day of legacy pay in Europe. BA Captains lived very well, thank you. No need to sweat it out in HK.

[anxiao]

Not necessarily true, Kaha.

I was around united's era in the early 80s and left BA to join CX. Best move I ever did. Lost 9 years of seniority in BA and got a 747 command after 8 years of seriously fun and professionaly challenging FO flying at CX. e.g. at BA you had to be a Captain to do the IGS approach, in CX you did them as a junior FO from day one.

Elite may be the wrong word I agree, but it was one of the best gigs on the planet for a single 30 year old pilot.

Since then it has been dragged down by management incompetence and venality. I would not leave Ryanair for CX now...

[unitedabx]

Rose tinted spectacles alert !

Elite? C'mon, working out in the far east, when HK was a dirty, down trodden colony?

Choice of every pilot? Not true, it was the choice some pilots had to make after failing to secure employment with their national airline. Or were ejected from the military, and called up their squadron mates.
Back in the '80s was the hey day of legacy pay in Europe. BA Captains lived very well, thank you. No need to sweat it out in HK.

For any pilot who wanted to work outside their home country CX WAS the airline of choice. Outfits like Gulf Air and Saudia recruited but you always put your application in to CX just incase your number got called up. No failed military pilots in CX. Red Arrows leaders and Faulkland War heros maybe. In the 1980's there was one American pilot in the company, the vast majoity came from UK and Australia and a few refugees from SA. I sense in your reply that you were one of those who applied and got rejected, hence the sour grapes. But we were the elite and proud to be so.

Your referal to HKG as dirty and down trodden in the 1980's is totally false. It was the jewel in the SE Asia crown. Sorry you didn't get in when you first applied. Perhaps you had to wait until the standards dropped by which time the elite status had faded.

[SandwichOfficer]

The standards were so high you didn’t even need to be able to spell Falkland correctly......

[unitedabx]

The standards were so high you didn’t even need to be able to spell Falkland correctly......

jealous or what ? that's why you'll remain in the RHS. Can't see the wood for the trees. I have people like you to correct my spelling mistakes.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

but in general Cathay has treated me well. I really can't blame them for my decision to join.

However much you may be enamored to your employer despite their constant attack on your CoS, your post and point of view is irrelevant here.
As a B scale, your contract is infinitely better than the one any new joiner will have to sign. Most importantly, you never had to worry about housing.

New joiners have a very different lifestyle to plan for. One that involves spending a not insignificant proportion of a salary scale that doesn't keep up with inflation into renting a space that would qualify as a walk-in closet elsewhere in the World. That's before considering housing a family with kids.
Education is getting more expensive as you said, yet the newer contract offers less compensation for tuition fees.
The only property ownership experience available is paying a 25 year, US$1 million mortgage for a 500 sq.ft. flat, if you've been thrifty enough to save up for the 40% deposit and stamp duty, and assuming you've been here more than 7 years continuously.
Hong Kong is not really getting any bigger, and as more people are coming in, the cost of life keeps increasing (way faster than the laughable official inflation rate), and quality of life keeps decreasing.
Life in HK on CoS18 will be a very far cry from what your experience has been, and will only get worse with time.

Then again, deterring the rosy-vision equipped wannabees is impossible. All they see is a big shiny jet. They tell themselves it'll be alright, that they'll commute to Phuket or that they'll go back home when they've had the P1 rating... Of course by then, years have passed and life has a way of making it hard to start over again somewhere else, and CX, along with every other airline, has taken advantage of another soul desperate to join the ranks at any cost to cheapen the profession.

On the whole, I agree with many. It's not just CX we're fighting against. They're just a greedy corporation doing what they do best: maximizing profit at the expense of their employees whenever they can get away with it (and aided by the very favorable local labor laws). As long as hordes of starry-eyed kids who still idolize the profession and lifestyle keep flocking in and signing any paper that's waved at them to get the chance to look through a windshield, things will just keep getting worse, regardless of how many of these threads warning them we post.

The profession as a whole is going down the drain. Airlines have found the solution to infinite and cheap workforce: hire anybody with a pulse. Those things fly themselves anyway, right?

[SandwichOfficer]

jealous or what ? that's why you'll remain in the RHS. Can't see the wood for the trees. I have people like you to correct my spelling mistakes.

the problem with people who claim to be ‘elite’ is that they very rarely are. I have sat next to Red Arrows Leaders, Falklands Harrier Aces, F18 Jocks, etc who have all been the most pleasant individuals to fly with. And not once have they mentioned that previous ‘elite-ness’.

One of Cathay’s many problems are the individuals who strut around saying things like ‘I have people to do that for me’ and ‘I am an elite pilot’.

You’re not elite. You were born in a different era and you were lucky to be in the right place at the right time. Airline flying is not brain surgery. Yes, there’s a certain amount of aptitude required and everyone has to put in the hard yards to get into an airline. However being a capable and respected Captain is not so straight forward. You may be the former, but I doubt you are the latter.

[main_dog]

Yonisoy, that post should be printed on Flight International. Spot on.

[Tankengine]

Even in the eighties CX was not everything to all pilots.
I can remember drinking with A scalers- the first two beers was all about how much they got paid and investments, after a few more it was how they wish they could have a swim at the beach or eat the fish they caught back in their home country.
A legacy carrier at home is always OK. :)

[Sam Ting Wong]

Yonosoy,

is it really necessary to discredit everyone who accepts the current conditions ? I find this a bit patronizing , with all due respect.

We don't know the individual options or motives of every single new-joiner. I think one needs to have more appreciation for the tough market out there, limited international working rights ( SA comes to mind), financial aspects regarding the financing of training, personal circumstances ( what if your wife can have a decent incone in Hong Kong?), etc etc.

The very same arguments you are bringing up I heard 15 years ago from A scalers. The industry is changing and that is that. Don't blame kids you don't know nothing about, don't be that guy. No offence intended.

[Amber Vibes]

"tough market out there".... "....the industry is changing"......

Only in Hong Kong through spin and manipulation, and genuinely in a handful of other countries. Otherwise, these comments do not reconcile with the rest of world.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Amber, recruitment target are young cadets with no experience or guys with little experience, the wrong rating, a really bad job, from countries with extreme low wages or simply a not very helpful passport.

Check the options on hand for this group and if you think there are superior offers post it here.

[Dilbert68]

Under current policy, CX will hire anybody to sit in the cockpit. Let that sink in for a moment.

How many of you have extremely successful friends from all walks of life that will confess to you that they always dreamed of being a pilot? They never pursued it because they weren't passionate about aviation to put up with the years of low paying jobs, living in the middle of nowhere, etc. Most of us put our lives on hold just to fly, it was our sole focus and eventually we landed an airline job after much hard work and many life lessons.
That very same job is now being offered to people that are no more qualified than the guy selling me a phone in Mong Kok. They get to bypass all that hard work and end up in the same place as you are. The result is a group of "pilots" that have no knowledge of aviation whatsoever and furthermore, don't care. They are not earger to sponge up information from the senior crew they fly with, they would rather just collect the pay cheque and go home. No wiser after the flight than they were before it.
And you all wonder why the standards are dropping?
As long as the Trainers in this airline keep letting standards drop then they will. I have flown with far too many line pilots who have no right to be there, the writing is on the wall.

You really think this new crop of recruits is going to balk at COS 18? They would come for half.

[Slasher1]

Under current policy, CX will hire anybody to sit in the cockpit. Let that sink in for a moment.

How many of you have extremely successful friends from all walks of life that will confess to you that they always dreamed of being a pilot? They never pursued it because they weren't passionate about aviation to put up with the years of low paying jobs, living in the middle of nowhere, etc. Most of us put our lives on hold just to fly, it was our sole focus and eventually we landed an airline job after much hard work and many life lessons.
That very same job is now being offered to people that are no more qualified than the guy selling me a phone in Mong Kok. They get to bypass all that hard work and end up in the same place as you are. The result is a group of "pilots" that have no knowledge of aviation whatsoever and furthermore, don't care. They are not earger to sponge up information from the senior crew they fly with, they would rather just collect the pay cheque and go home. No wiser after the flight than they were before it.
And you all wonder why the standards are dropping?
As long as the Trainers in this airline keep letting standards drop then they will. I have flown with far too many line pilots who have no right to be there, the writing is on the wall.

You really think this new crop of recruits is going to balk at COS 18? They would come for half.

Ya....that's a very good point and the reason that if it were to remain relevant, HKAOA would HAVE to strike over the introduction of POS18 (which many, myself included, have said). POS 18 effectively sidesteps the union through the introduction of individual contracts. On whatever conditions downline.

Whether it has the wherewithal to shut the place down I have no idea (but have my doubts).

No matter what, this is a very certification intensive industry. While you might be able to hire any button pusher you want off the street, it takes TIME and money to obtain the ratings (and HKG is more onerous than many) in order to occupy certain seats and perform certain functions. The new hires can get this on a type of apprenticeship, but it will take significant time to spin them up. In other words, if you DON'T want this to happen, you'll have to act to make it not happen.

And by the time they're spun up, it'll all be over (assuming the company is smart enough to hike their conditions just enough to make them stay, but not enough to sustain a life they're chasing--which they historically have been and probably are--and that the new hires are too dumb to figure out this is what's happening--essentially spending their career chasing a fleeting carrot).

The ONE card the union has is that the company can't (at present) man the airline with the z-gen button pushers. This will change over the next few years. So they have the TIME it takes to spin up these people up to act.

[Amber Vibes]

Amber, recruitment target are young cadets with no experience or guys with little experience, the wrong rating, a really bad job, from countries with extreme low wages or simply a not very helpful passport.

Check the options on hand for this group and if you think there are superior offers post it here.

"...young cadets with no experience or guys with little experience..." - That's the case everywhere because there is a pilot shortage.
"....the wrong rating,...." - Unless you are employed through an aviation employment agency under a contract, this is not applicable anywhere right now. While it may help, it doesn't hurt.
"...a really bad job...." - That is very subjective. In most cases, regardless of where you work, if your record is clean, and skills and knowledge are up to par, this simply doesn't hold true.
".... from countries with extreme low wages or simply a not very helpful passport...." Yes, this is mostly true for a small minority, but again exception --- not the rule.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Amber,

the reality is people are joining. You might not approve, but they do.

[Air Profit]

S.T.W. You have just highlighted the issue that will prove the eventual downfall of CX. You are right, "people" are joining. The problem is, "pilots" aren't joining. I'll let you figure out the nuance in that statement. Once upon a time you had to be a pilot to be employed at CX. Now, barely out of adolescence and with no knowledge of aviation makes you a "pilot" in CX. That can't and won't end well. Most of us now at CX see the writing on the wall and are making plans to escape this rudderless, sinking ship. They can try and replace us with "people" all they want, but that doesn't substitute for experience, loyalty, dedication and wisdom. One day the headlines in the paper will make that apparent.

[mngmt mole]

Another corrosive factor in the ever declining standards and career outlook for CX pilots is the fact that CX can, and will, hire anyone from anywhere. There was a time when they only hired the "best", mainly airline pilots from other established first world carriers, or RAF/RAAF pilots, either transport or fast-jet. There was NEVER any question of their abilities as pilots, or as individuals. Now, we have seen the airline populated by people who normally would have been clerking in a bank, working in hotel management or waiting in a restaurant. We now have people from more third world nations than first world nations flying for CX. Look around dispatch during the busy times of day and the writing is on the wall as to where this airline is heading. The day of the experienced, first world thinking expat pilot at CX is over. In another 10 years, there will be few expats left, and it will be (especially in HK) another Chinese airline. Not saying that with bitterness, simply an acknowledgement of where the management have allowed CX to evolve. It will be a lonely place for the few western expats on the flight deck, and much sooner than most suspected. As that realisation is now sinking in, it is causing the ever increasing exodus of expats from CX, replaced by the ever increasing stream of mainly local wannabe cadets, who's knowledge of "aviation" is less than most school boys in the UK. Come back in 10 years and we can debate the accuracy of the above. I will place a bet that I am not far off. It's over, and it's time for anyone who can establish a career back in their home countries to realise that the sooner they make the move, the better off they will eventually be. To stay here is to wither and die.

[unitedabx]

Another corrosive factor in the ever declining standards and career outlook for CX pilots is the fact that CX can, and will, hire anyone from anywhere. There was a time when they only hired the "best", mainly airline pilots from other established first world carriers, or RAF/RAAF pilots, either transport or fast-jet. There was NEVER any question of their abilities as pilots, or as individuals. Now, we have seen the airline populated by people who normally would have been clerking in a bank, working in hotel management or waiting in a restaurant. We now have people from more third world nations than first world nations flying for CX. Look around dispatch during the busy times of day and the writing is on the wall as to where this airline is heading. The day of the experienced, first world thinking expat pilot at CX is over. In another 10 years, there will be few expats left, and it will be (especially in HK) another Chinese airline. Not saying that with bitterness, simply an acknowledgement of where the management have allowed CX to evolve. It will be a lonely place for the few western expats on the flight deck, and much sooner than most suspected. As that realisation is now sinking in, it is causing the ever increasing exodus of expats from CX, replaced by the ever increasing stream of mainly local wannabe cadets, who's knowledge of "aviation" is less than most school boys in the UK. Come back in 10 years and we can debate the accuracy of the above. I will place a bet that I am not far off. It's over, and it's time for anyone who can establish a career back in their home countries to realise that the sooner they make the move, the better off they will eventually be. To stay here is to wither and die.

MM,

You are spot on with that post. Anyone who thinks differently is a fool.

[Avinthenews]

Hong Kong has been under China for over two decades I'm not sure why many still think CX will end with the standard of "pilots" it hires. Cathay IS A CHINESE AIRLINE it's based in Hong Kong, I think many are drinking their own cool aid, it's not a western one because it hires expats, several asian airlines hire expats, the writing is on the wall, CX won't end and "pilots" of all nationalities will continue to join.

The airline isn't what many of us joined and it's never going back, it's morphed into Korean or an old Singapore Airlines from it's expat heyday except we still have the worst rostering lifestyle control of possibly all other airlines.

If you think you're joining some fancy expat friendly airline you're not, it's an asian airlines that may have an incident like Korean or Singapore Airlines but it'll survive just like they have.

If you're a westerner and have put CX on some pedestal since you were a kid, perhaps you should replace it with your local major or runner up. Hey even Korean has a better roster so you can commute.

[letsfly75]

After 10 years at CX I’m out. The writing is on the wall. I did like this job but I just don’t see a future here.

[Amber Vibes]

Amber,

the reality is people are joining. You might not approve, but they do.


Whether I approve or not is neither here nor there. I was simply responding to your misapprehensions. Your remarks are inflammatory and misleading, or at best misinformed. Sorry, but there it is.

[Staggers]

Staggers (https://www.pprune.org/members/21677-staggers) : A real measure of the "old CX" would be if you remember/experienced the 3 hour Noel Jones debriefs!!! I only experienced it once on command training and it almost resulted in a physical response.

I remember them/him well; actually saw him laugh at himself once!

[Staggers]

"Thumbwheel" :-)


and TL told me that story himself when I was doing my L1011 conversion.

[Staggers]

One has to ask why we endured such silliness.
My take on it is that we all thought we had won the lottery and that trivia apart it was about the best deal going. Sadly it has gone steadily down hill after the 80s.

[mngmt mole]

...”endured such silliness “...?? Would rather be back enduring that “silliness “ than the mindless incompetence and pointlessness of the current era. At least the managers back then still stood up for their pilots.

[unitedabx]

...”endured such silliness “...?? Would rather be back enduring that “silliness “ than the mindless incompetence and pointlessness of the current era. At least the managers back then still stood up for their pilots.

Totally agree. back then the managers were pilots first and managers second. They could all fly and loved flying. Contrast this with the bunch we have now. Most are well below average flyingwise( look how many only got commands on their second attempt ) and fly as little as possible prefering to sit at a desk and micro manage the policies dictated from above. Pathetic crowd.I well remember one guy ( still up there ) told me he was applying for a management job because his wife wanted him to have weekends free to look after the kids while she did yoga classes. Pathetic.

[Staggers]

Totally agree. back then the managers were pilots first and managers second. They could all fly and loved flying. Contrast this with the bunch we have now. Most are well below average flyingwise( look how many only got commands on their second attempt ) and fly as little as possible prefering to sit at a desk and micro manage the policies dictated from above. Pathetic crowd.I well remember one guy ( still up there ) told me he was applying for a management job because his wife wanted him to have weekends free to look after the kids while she did yoga classes. Pathetic.

God help us a management run creche

[Meikleour]

Staggers: If you saw him laughing then it must have been a line flight and not a check ride. He was the "classic" Jekyll and Hyde when it came to the different roles.

[Good Business Sense]

and TL told me that story himself when I was doing my L1011 conversion.

:):) Did you have the tickets waived at you in the first week? :):)

[lucille]

Another corrosive factor in the ever declining standards and career outlook for CX pilots is the fact that CX can, and will, hire anyone from anywhere. There was a time when they only hired the "best", mainly airline pilots from other established first world carriers, or RAF/RAAF pilots, either transport or fast-jet. There was NEVER any question of their abilities as pilots, or as individuals. Now, we have seen the airline populated by people who normally would have been clerking in a bank, working in hotel management or waiting in a restaurant. We now have people from more third world nations than first world nations flying for CX. Look around dispatch during the busy times of day and the writing is on the wall as to where this airline is heading. The day of the experienced, first world thinking expat pilot at CX is over. In another 10 years, there will be few expats left, and it will be (especially in HK) another Chinese airline. Not saying that with bitterness, simply an acknowledgement of where the management have allowed CX to evolve. It will be a lonely place for the few western expats on the flight deck, and much sooner than most suspected. As that realisation is now sinking in, it is causing the ever increasing exodus of expats from CX, replaced by the ever increasing stream of mainly local wannabe cadets, who's knowledge of "aviation" is less than most school boys in the UK. Come back in 10 years and we can debate the accuracy of the above. I will place a bet that I am not far off. It's over, and it's time for anyone who can establish a career back in their home countries to realise that the sooner they make the move, the better off they will eventually be. To stay here is to wither and die.

Newsflash!.

Its not just a disease at CX but in every other airline in the world. The dumbing down of pilots is a result of huge advances in automation both in the air and on the ground. The list of places in the world where ATC is not your nanny is ever diminishing. The systems, when they're working, on most modern aircraft make them dare I say crash proof. Experience, skill, airmanship have all been relegated to being non essential traits.

Some people may call this progress. I'm just glad I've retired.

[mngmt mole]

Non essential skills....until suddenly they are. AF447 anyone?

[Staggers]

:):) Did you have the tickets waived at you in the first week? :):)


and at other times in my career 😂😂😂

[boofta]

jones was so far out of his depth the best he could do was belittle everyone he dealt with
he was not a bad person, just doing a job about 5
pay grades above his abilities
there were far worse (others)
one particularly nasty ex FE with less actual hours
than all the new -joiners
hope you all realise that you only lose the new joiner
tag in CX when you retire
good luck to all

[Hellenic aviator]

:):) Did you have the tickets waived at you in the first week? :):)

Yep. I remember the first week in ground school when Jones did that to our class.
Funny thing was someone actually DID get up and said, "My last name is XXXXX, do you have my ticket?". He (candidate) was dead set on leaving, stating clearly to him that he didn't sign up for this. Wasn't going to tolerate that sort of treatment from Day 1 as a new-hire. Granted back in those days, the queue to join was long and distinguished......nowadays, pending you pass their silly group exercises and "tell me of a time when you........" questions, you pretty much have a job offer and no "Jones' Welcome to Cathay, our door is always open - we value you" treatment. Ahhh the good ol' days.

[VR-HFX]

I remember them/him well; actually saw him laugh at himself once!
Staggers...that would have been playing cricket for Kai Tak, I suspect.:cool:

[twothree]

Staggers...that would have been playing cricket for Kai Tak, I suspect.:cool:
Ref: NJ. Do you remember "Lower the Dunlops!"

[Good Business Sense]

Ref: NJ. Do you remember "Lower the Dunlops!"

......... how about ........ "a balanced wing is a happy wing", ...... from a man I miss a great deal !

[VR-HFX]

Ref: NJ. Do you remember "Lower the Dunlops!"
I used to hear "Dangle the Dunlops" a bit in the early days but poor old NJ didn't do alliteration:hmm: