View Full Version : ‘Fast jets’
stilton
23rd Dec 2018, 05:11
Curious as to how this term came into use,I believe it’s only used in the UK to describe
fighter / strike aircraft
Most jets are reasonably fast so how did aircraft in this class end up with this description?
ExRAFRadar
23rd Dec 2018, 06:04
Nice try, now go and have a lie down.
MPN11
23rd Dec 2018, 07:45
I had a Belvedere unhelpfully refer to himself as a “twin turboprop” on the RT. ;)
I guess he was also a slow-jet!
Pontius Navigator
23rd Dec 2018, 08:48
Or ME when many FJ had two engines and RW also, but ME was neither FJ or RW.
In initial pilot training however the Jet Stream was ME in contrast to the Hawk which was FJ. On graduating your pilot was either FJ, ME, or RW trained.
In other words the origin was the training system and not the operational type.
stilton
23rd Dec 2018, 09:24
Or ME when many FJ had two engines and RW also, but ME was neither FJ or RW.
In initial pilot training however the Jet Stream was ME in contrast to the Hawk which was FJ. On graduating your pilot was either FJ, ME, or RW trained.
In other words the origin was the training system and not the operational type.
Understand,
Thanks for the informative reply, now it makes sense
Tankertrashnav
23rd Dec 2018, 10:35
The Mk I Victor was certainly a "fast jet" once it got going, with many examples of it exceeding Mach one. However during its takeoff run and climb it was most definitely a "slow jet"!
chevvron
23rd Dec 2018, 12:26
Most jets are reasonably fast so how did aircraft in this class end up with this description?
Er Jet Provost?
stilton
23rd Dec 2018, 12:57
The Mk I Victor was certainly a "fast jet" once it got going, with many examples of it exceeding Mach one. However during its takeoff run and climb it was most definitely a "slow jet"!
I’m just finishing ‘Victor Boys’
I’m even more impressed with that amazing aircraft now, as you say it was very fast
Cruising at .85 initially at FL470 in the MK 2
Quite something and easily the best looking bomber until the B1 came along
SASless
23rd Dec 2018, 13:32
Quite something and easily the best looking bomber until the B1 came along
My vote would have to be for the Boeing B-47 when it comes to "beauty".
https://www.cloud9photography.us/Military-Aviation-9/Boeing-B-47-Stratojet-Military/i-RVWBMXR/A
Pontius Navigator
23rd Dec 2018, 16:19
Er Jet Provost?
Basic trainer that enabled FJ/ME streaming.
flash8
23rd Dec 2018, 16:35
If I recall BFT (or do I mean EFT?) was on the JP and were then streamed/chopped after aptitude was determined, going by the famous TV series of the early 80's of course (so I admit I could be wrong), Was the reason made to move away from the JP purely based upon age/maintainability of the a/c etc?
Pontius Navigator
23rd Dec 2018, 16:36
If I recall BFT (or do I mean EFT?) was on the JP and were then streamed/chopped after aptitude was determined, going by the famous TV series of the early 80's of course (so I admit I could be wrong), Was the reason made to move away from the JP purely based upon age/maintainability of the a/c etc?
Flash, your last privacy age.
Garbled
It should have been your last point - age and maintainability.
India Four Two
23rd Dec 2018, 19:01
I always thought that 'fast jet' was used for comms security. I remember when I was flying cross-country in UAS Chipmunks, we were told we must use the term 'single piston' when talking to ATC.
I bet that fooled the Russian 'trawlers'! :E
Phantom Driver
23rd Dec 2018, 19:29
Stilton-
Quite something and easily the best looking bomber until the B1 came along
Second that . Now those WERE the days of Great Britain; Handley Page, English Electric , Hawker , Avro , Vickers , Blackburn etc etc......
Oh well , must be time for another G & T .
Pontius Navigator
23rd Dec 2018, 19:51
I42_ you were not alone. We were a 4-jet rather than a Vulcan. At the time the RAF had only 4 types of 4-Jet.
Herod
23rd Dec 2018, 22:14
Basic trainer that enabled FJ/ME streaming.
And rotary. I know; I went that route. (the cream always rises)
NutLoose
24th Dec 2018, 01:46
so incidentally does poo ;):O:}
stilton
24th Dec 2018, 02:11
My vote would have to be for the Boeing B-47 when it comes to "beauty".
https://www.cloud9photography.us/Military-Aviation-9/Boeing-B-47-Stratojet-Military/i-RVWBMXR/A
The B47 was a great looking aircraft, it’s cockpit canopy must surely be the largest
ever made !
sharpend
24th Dec 2018, 10:03
One of the very fast jets was the VC10!
Lima Juliet
24th Dec 2018, 11:14
One of the very fast jets was the VC10!
:p :p :p :p for an airliner...iirc the Vne (Vmo) was 315kts IAS and Mne M.94? So ‘very fast’ for an airliner but not quick enough to be a ‘fast jet’.
NutLoose
24th Dec 2018, 11:45
A Jaguar was a fast jet................. :E
A Jaguar was a fast jet................. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif
Limited to M0.9 at low level if drop tanks were fitted. Could exceed it though.
Here we go...……………………..
SASless
24th Dec 2018, 14:16
Stilton......the early model B-52 Stratofortress (not necessarily fast or pretty but still hoofing it all these decades later) also started life with a canopy design that made it look very similar to the B-47.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-52_Stratofortress#/media/File:YB-52sideview.jpg
factanonverba
24th Dec 2018, 18:51
Limited to M0.9 at low level if drop tanks were fitted. Could exceed it though.
.95 comes to mind with tanks fitted.
I stand corrected.
My display jet was totally clean apart from the outboard pylons, which marginally improved directional stability, which the jet started to run out of at high alpha.
The Buccaneer was a "Fat" jet.......
NutLoose
25th Dec 2018, 12:03
Considering the Jag was originally a trainer design I always thought its ability to go supersonic wasn't bad.
There were rumours about a VC10 achieved it, even a spitfire came close.
sharpend
26th Dec 2018, 08:14
Considering the Jag was originally a trainer design I always thought its ability to go supersonic wasn't bad.
There were rumours about a VC10 achieved it, even a spitfire came close.
The Jaguar, if clean, was supersonic at low-level. I should know. Shall not say where though :)
The VC10 has gone supersonic, though in error. Crossing the Pond at speed with the Flt Eng off the flt deck, then passing thro a front resulted sometimes in a big change in temperature which resulted in s big speed jump. Though the mach warning horn would have sounded, unless of course a naughty man had pulled the cb.
NutLoose
26th Dec 2018, 13:08
I did a supersonic dive in the back of a Jag off Gib once :)
The spitfire was a Mk 19 in a dive off Hong Kong with a Flt Lt Powell at the controls.
NutLoose
26th Dec 2018, 13:10
I did a supersonic dive in the back of a Jag off Gib once :)
The spitfire was a Mk 19 in a dive off Hong Kong with a Flt Lt Powles at the controls.
it was PS854 and recorded 0.96 Mach or 715mph in a dive from over 51,500 ft and no that isn't a typo!
More here
Edward Powles ? Fastest Piston Pilot ? World of Indie (http://www.worldofindie.co.uk/?p=265)
...
Thud_and_Blunder
26th Dec 2018, 16:35
Considering the Jag was originally a trainer design I always thought its ability to go supersonic wasn't bad.
Haven't done a recent search, but I believe the Jag may have had its roots in the Breguet 121, which ISTR was a potential bidder for the NATO light-fighter competition (Sabre replacement?) that was sort-of won by the Fiat G91. Sort-of, in that only the Germans, Italians and Portugese ever bought them. As usual, facts are probably all over the shop - DuckDuckGo is your friend (never touch G00gle meself...)
Pontius Navigator
26th Dec 2018, 21:09
Course you did!
And survived 🤓
BEagle
26th Dec 2018, 22:06
sharpend wrote:
The VC10 has gone supersonic, though in error. Crossing the Pond at speed with the Flt Eng off the flt deck, then passing thro a front resulted sometimes in a big change in temperature which resulted in s big speed jump. Though the mach warning horn would have sounded, unless of course a naughty man had pulled the cb.
Oh really? That could only happen if someone was trying to maintain a constant TAS and failed to notice a change in OAT of around -57 deg C! Frankly I smell BS, I'm afraid! Try doing the IMN / IAS / OAT calcs, mate! What I suspect happened was that no-one was monitoring the IAS and the change in OAT across a front increased engine thrust, which caused the aircraft to accelerate, tripping the high speed warning horns...and probably the odd surge or few!
During Full Air Tests, I was authorised to take the VC10K2/3/4 up to (IIRC) M0.925. The airflow noise and buffeting, as well as the nose down pitch change at high IMN and the general handling, indicated to me that anything faster would have been very risky. The VC10 C Mk1 was cleaner, but even so I very much doubt that any RAF pilot ever went supersonic in a VC10!
Hockham Admiral
27th Dec 2018, 09:41
The Buccaneer was a "Fat" jet.......
She certainly was! With a clean wing Mk 2A and newish Speys she would reach M.95 or 620kts on arrival at a display back in the day. You had to be very sure that you kept the ball in the middle above 600kts.
Percy Cute
27th Dec 2018, 14:26
Most jets are fast (or vast).
Some are fighters, the majority are not.
Questions?
NutLoose
27th Dec 2018, 17:04
And survived ��
:) S / Ldr St**n 14 Sqn took me up to do aeros, nice experience as was flying in a Fuga.. incidentally we put some Jags up for the border opening if i remember correctly, but we were not there so to speak at the time, it was flag waving come hands off sort of detachment.... caused a few in RAFG and the UK to nearly have heart failure when they saw the impromptu flight on the news, good detachment, bar nearly stuffing the seven three into the rock trying to land in out of limits crosswinds, apparently the crash was sounded as they thought we were history. Night on the Algarve and back the next day, followed by several days of walking around smelling like I had been on the piss all day and getting pulled up more than once because of it due to the muppets smashing the litre of spirits in my bag that was on top of all my uniforms.
olster
27th Dec 2018, 18:04
Well, that made sense...
ivor toolbox
27th Dec 2018, 21:07
The Buccaneer was a "Fat" jet.......
Banana Jet
Ttfn
NutLoose
28th Dec 2018, 01:53
Olster, you have lost me, I was replying to PN's comment about flying in the Jag and pointing out that we all came very close to not surviving at all, closest to death I have ever come too, we nearly lost most of the Sqn.
BVRAAM
28th Dec 2018, 03:42
Not just a UK term. It's used in the U.S. as well.
beardy
28th Dec 2018, 22:18
:) S / Ldr St**n 14 Sqn took me up to do aeros, nice experience as was flying in a Fuga.. incidentally we put some Jags up for the border opening if i remember correctly, but we were not there so to speak at the time, it was flag waving come hands off sort of detachment.... caused a few in RAFG and the UK to nearly have heart failure when they saw the impromptu flight on the news, good detachment, bar nearly stuffing the seven three into the rock trying to land in out of limits crosswinds, apparently the crash was sounded as they thought we were history. Night on the Algarve and back the next day, followed by several days of walking around smelling like I had been on the piss all day and getting pulled up more than once because of it due to the muppets smashing the litre of spirits in my bag that was on top of all my uniforms.
Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by Fuga?
BEagle
28th Dec 2018, 22:57
I guess he means the Fouga Magister as it was still in service with some air forces at the time in question. In fact the Belgians only retired them in 2007!
Intrigued that they went to the Algarve and back though - it's quite a long way from Gib. Or perhaps he meant Algeciras?
Sleeping
29th Dec 2018, 08:45
Intrigued that they went to the Algarve and back though - it's quite a long way from Gib. Or perhaps he meant Algeciras?
While the border with Spain was closed the preferred alternate for Gib was Faro.
It was thought that the welcome from the immediate neighbors would be less that cordial, as indeed it was found to be on the odd occasion!
NutLoose
30th Dec 2018, 02:23
Yes, Faro, so we had to stay in Vilamoura on the Algarve, Fuga was a private jet G-FUGA
http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff321/taylortony/Fouga/Fouga3.jpg
It was thought that the welcome from the immediate neighbors would be less that cordial, as indeed it was found to be on the odd occasion!
yep had a Jag divert in from Deci on way to Gib, lots of politics involved and only cleared once fixed back to Deci, took off out to sea. quick left hander and landed in Gib :)
Pontius Navigator
30th Dec 2018, 08:26
Maybe the Jag, possibly a Domine. Diverted into one of the Balearics. Naturally someone told Madrid but the Airport Manager or similar realised the implications and potentially Charlie Foxtrot and organised a quick turnround. The bird had flown by the time Madrid ordered it be impounded.
RetiredBA/BY
30th Dec 2018, 12:26
sharpend wroteThe VC10 C Mk1 was cleaner, but even so I very much doubt that any RAF pilot ever went supersonic in a VC10!
In 6 years on it I Never heard anyone mention a VC 10, standard or super, going supersonic or even reaching M 1 indicated Anyway, on the 10 the Mach meter overread, . 84 indicated ( BOAC/BA cruise speed) was actually . 825 true, not much faster than the .8 true on a 767 and slower than the jumbo at .85.
A Victor 1 yes, been there, done that, but even then an indicated M 1 was probably not Mach 1 TRUE.