History of CRM in Australia

[Seagull V]

Does anyone know if there is a definitive history of the implementation of Crew Resource Management in aviation in Australia please? The when, where, who, how, stages, failures, successes etc. etc. I have tried Google without any real success. Any assistance will be appreciated.

[Mach E Avelli]

I don't know when CASA decided to mandate it, but I certainly recall doing a CRM course as far back as 1991 or 1992 here in OZ and have done a few since.
The very first time I did CRM was in Holland, conducted by KLM sometime around 1980. After the Tenerife disaster they were among the first to come up with the concept of CRM. European operators were including it in most induction programs not long after.
Initially there was quite some resistance to the concept by some of the more 'rusted on' Captains of the day; often the same characters who never fully embraced the concept of sharing take-offs and landings with First Officers.

[Duck Pilot]

From my PX days, the instructors who taught it - some of whom frequent theses forums, clearly indicated that TAA may have been the first airline in Australia to adopt CRM training.

[Checklist Charlie]

I seem to recall at TAA we had Aircrew Team Management courses run by Tony Wilson during the mid 80's. CRM by a different name.
CC

[RUMBEAR]

I don’t think there will be much history to search on google. While CRM May have been trained within major airlines dating back to the 80’s, it was only mandated by CASA about 7-8 years ago. In High Capacity AOC’s anyway it was integrated into the safety management system.

[Toruk Macto]

Not sure if true but was told in very early days at Qantas the courses where segregated into rank ? Captains all in together in complete agreement that all fault lay with junior ranks . Next door the F/O’s where saying same about captains . If true it’s a good story ?

[mustafagander]

Toruk Macto no, that's not how it went. All ranks, Cpt, F/O, S/O and FEO did it together.

When I did the initial CRM as a 2 day live in course it was run by Cpt Graham Beaumont.

[john_tullamarine]

I joined Ansett in 1975 and AN certainly was at the forefront of accident causation training. I can't be 100% certain due to the memory's not being able to pinpoint the first training sessions ... but I am pretty certain that they came in when I was still on the Fokker .. so sometime during the period 75-78 ?

[Three Wire]

I joined Ansett in 1975 and AN certainly was at the forefront of accident causation training. I can't be 100% certain due to the memory's not being able to pinpoint the first training sessions ... but I am pretty certain that they came in when I was still on the Fokker .. so sometime during the period 75-78 ?

I believe JT that in Ansett it was the KHUFAC course begun in 1983, and sourced from KLM. TAA in parallel, ran a course tailored by UQ specialiasts from the United course begun in 1980 or thereabouts.
If memory serves me right, the instructors in both airlines were always Captains, although the courses were mixed 50/50 with four stripers and F/Os of various grades.

How do I know? Well I have a few degrees in HF, sat through the TAA version in a well known ME airline, and then later designed and implemented an HF course in that airline that is still running with very few changes. Oh and we used Captains and F/Os to facilitate the course. My degrees involved a fair bit of the history of CRM in airlines.

[Dora-9]

I believe JT that in Ansett it was the KHUFAC course begun in 1983, and sourced from KLM.

That's my recollection too. Managed/run initially by Keith Wallace.

[Tankengine]

Toruk Macto no, that's not how it went. All ranks, Cpt, F/O, S/O and FEO did it together.

When I did the initial CRM as a 2 day live in course it was run by Cpt Graham Beaumont.
The exercise done after a few beers in the evening was the highlight of that course for me! 😁

[LeadSled]

Not sure if true but was told in very early days at Qantas the courses where segregated into rank ? Captains all in together in complete agreement that all fault lay with junior ranks . Next door the F/O’s where saying same about captains . If true it’s a good story ?

Absolute rubbish!!
Right from the word go, and Qantas was a very very early adopter, CRM days were all ranks, and included cabin crew in the same groups.
Tootle pip!!

[PW1830]

Early days in QF there was some suspicion about the agenda and those with most to learn learnt the least.
A weekend in Coogee and cold beer on Qf.

[greybeard]

The Ansett course was taken to the Perth and Sydney Bases in 1986 with a course in Melbourne for the Facilitators with Keith Wallace

[30/30 Green Light]

My first CRM was in 1986,Mt Eliza, TAA. 2 days live in, Capt's F/O's and F/E's all in together, and evenings full of beer. And as mentioned earlier those with the most to learn, learned the least Cheers!

[john_tullamarine]

I believe JT that in Ansett it was the KHUFAC course begun in 1983

So much for my ageing memory cells. However, I thought the presentations well-intentioned and, overall, reasonably interesting. As I recall, Gerry Backhouse was tied up actively with them as well ?

[Seagull V]

My thanks to those PPruners who have responded.
There were some valuable clues amongst the replies that have helped me unearth a bit more.
Any other comments or information will be appreciated.
Seagull V

[ANCIENT]

TAA started the preparation of their course in 1983 by engaging UQ to design the whole thing.
Course was called ATM, Aircrew Team Management. I still have the manuals as I was one of the facilitators.
First courses were run in 1985.
With regard to QF, they were told by the authority that they needed to get on board. Two captains were on a course I was running with another pilot when we were informed the QF pilots had put in an objection to CASA, or whatever they called themselves then, asking that the course be shut down because it was encouraging FOs to questions the Captain’s decisions!
Maybe embellished but can certainly confirm the QF captains were not comfortable. Time moves on and QF now have a strong CRM course.
Have done many different CRMs since and found great variety in value, I think a lot of this is past its use by date.

[LeadSled]

Maybe embellished but can certainly confirm the QF captains were not comfortable. Time moves on and QF now have a strong CRM course.


Ancient,
Embellish would be an understatement, didn't happen. Every airline has a bunch of pilots who were slow to accept the idea, after all, they survived WWII as a single pilot in their Lancs etc.
All I am seeing here is the rather ridiculous TAA nonsense that "TAA knows it all" and Qantas knows nothing.
Tootle pip!!
In the day, so well developed that all QF's major interactions, particularly commercial, were with Ansett, a far more commonsense outfit.

[Judd]

and QF now have a strong CRM course.
I bet they have. In the old days the briefing before take off and the top of descent briefing assumed both pilots could read a chart and any pertinent information therein. "Any questions?" was the usual briefing. if there was a pertinent question it was handled on the spot. Nowadays one eye is kept on the CVR microphone to ensure every long winded sentence is recorded for legal reasons - not flight safety reasons. Arse covering is vital just like the Public Service.

Since CRM/ TEM and other buzzwords crept into aviation lexicon, briefings have become markedly longer to the extent of being useless in terms of the receiver of the briefing trying to remember every word the other bloke is uttering. The theory being the more sentences that can be crammed into a briefing the less opportunities for the legal eagles or FOQA readers to swoop on one tiny inconsequential item to hang the crew out to dry in event of an inconsequential incident.

[lucille]

From my PX days, the instructors who taught it - some of whom frequent theses forums, clearly indicated that TAA may have been the first airline in Australia to adopt CRM training.



Such was the success and high regard that CRM was held in, Didnt the first course attended by a couple of PX Captains end in fisticuffs, with one of them knocked out? Classic conflict resolution.🤣 GC was one of the protagonists...forgot the other.

[Checklist Charlie]

I'm sorry to say "Leady" but your All I am seeing here is the rather ridiculous TAA nonsense that "TAA knows it all" and Qantas knows nothing. sounds like sour grapes dating back perhaps to the Blue team and the Red Team scenario.

However if you insist with your line then I can add some QANTAS Captains were well known to respond to a greeting of "Good Morning" with "Thank you".

TAA's course was called ATM, the T standing for Team which is what we were.

CC

[LeadSled]

I'm sorry to say "Leady" but your sounds like sour grapes dating back perhaps to the Blue team and the Red Team scenario.

However if you insist with your line then I can add some QANTAS Captains were well known to respond to a greeting of "Good Morning" with "Thank you".

TAA's course was called ATM, the T standing for Team which is what we were.

CC

CC,
It long pre-dated the takeover of TAA by QF ---- the determined non-cooperation went back to pre-jet days --- indeed late 1940s.

To say the "culture" of the two organisations was diametrically opposed would be the understatement of the week.

A company, Q.A.N.T.A.S Ltd., that started off as a listed public company, and always traded as a public company (unlisted) even when almost all the shares were owned by the Commonwealth, versus the National Airlines Commission, a Labor government creation designed as the starting point for the nationalization of all Australian airlines, and trading as Trans Australia Airlines, TAA.

"TAA" was always grotesquely inefficient, hence the two airline policy, because Menzies didn't have the inclination to can TAA . But that is another story of short term political thinking, and politicians being snowed by "public servants" --- sound familiar.

At the time of the QF takeover, "TAA" was fundamentally broke, despite almost $900M being pumped into it in the year before by Treasury, mostly to fund the pension scheme, which was technically insolvent.
Tootle pip!!

[RodH]

That's my recollection too. Managed/run initially by Keith Wallace.

That's quite correct.
I did the KHUFAC Instructors course in 1983.
We initially attended a 2 day presentation by a KLM Captain who designed the course for KLM after the horrendous Tenerife Disaster. From this presentation about 6 ( not exactly sure of numbers ) were chosen to be instructors.
After the course we did a week of training at the Hawthorn Institute of Technology to learn how to best present and manage these courses. This was a very valuable course as it really helped with instructing and getting the word across more effectively.
There were about half a dozen Instructors , 2 from Qld were myself and Bob Delissa.
It was run by Captains who had done the Instructors course and the course itself was a mix of Capt's. F/O's and F/E's.
The course was generally well received although there were always those who resented changes.
That's about all I can recall that may be pertinent.

[Captwally]

Did you know my dad?

[Captwally]

That's my recollection too. Managed/run initially by Keith Wallace.
did you work with Kieth?

[Xeptu]

My memory of it, I wasn't multi crew myself until the late 80's it was definately around then in some form but not really taken all that seriously until around 2000 when the statement "Captain You Must Listen" and "Taking Over" was written into the crew operating manuals as a very defined procedure. I don't know if it has ever been used in practice in the real world..

[Cilba]

In answer to Checklist Charlie (post no 4) It was called Aircrew Team Management. I did it at Healesville in 1987 and the facilitators were Tony Wison and Bob Upham. I still have the handout. I enjoyed it.

[megan]

First CRM I recall with our private operator was run by Lyndon Haskett mid 90's. On a later course run by one of own pilots he asked the question "who is responsible for setting standards?", a couple of pilots answered "chief pilot". Wrong answer, the chief pilot hit the roof, apparently the correct answer was "the crewroom".

[dr dre]

My memory of it, I wasn't multi crew myself until the late 80's it was definately around then in some form but not really taken all that seriously until around 2000 when the statement "Captain You Must Listen" and "Taking Over" was written into the crew operating manuals as a very defined procedure. I don't know if it has ever been used in practice in the real world..

I can guarantee you words to the effect of those above have been used by junior ranks to stop a situation developing into an accident that would have made headlines.

The whole reason you don’t know if it’s been used in practice is because the use of such statements has prevented an accident that has been well publicised.

Imagine if the F/O of KLM in Tenerife had said “NO” and prevented the Captain from taking off in 1977. The world would have no idea that incident ever occurred.