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History of CRM in Australia

Old 17th Dec 2018, 01:18
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History of CRM in Australia

Does anyone know if there is a definitive history of the implementation of Crew Resource Management in aviation in Australia please? The when, where, who, how, stages, failures, successes etc. etc. I have tried Google without any real success. Any assistance will be appreciated.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 04:37
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I don't know when CASA decided to mandate it, but I certainly recall doing a CRM course as far back as 1991 or 1992 here in OZ and have done a few since.
The very first time I did CRM was in Holland, conducted by KLM sometime around 1980. After the Tenerife disaster they were among the first to come up with the concept of CRM. European operators were including it in most induction programs not long after.
Initially there was quite some resistance to the concept by some of the more 'rusted on' Captains of the day; often the same characters who never fully embraced the concept of sharing take-offs and landings with First Officers.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 05:35
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From my PX days, the instructors who taught it - some of whom frequent theses forums, clearly indicated that TAA may have been the first airline in Australia to adopt CRM training.

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Old 17th Dec 2018, 06:08
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I seem to recall at TAA we had Aircrew Team Management courses run by Tony Wilson during the mid 80's. CRM by a different name.
CC
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 06:46
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I donít think there will be much history to search on google. While CRM May have been trained within major airlines dating back to the 80ís, it was only mandated by CASA about 7-8 years ago. In High Capacity AOCís anyway it was integrated into the safety management system.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 08:14
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Not sure if true but was told in very early days at Qantas the courses where segregated into rank ? Captains all in together in complete agreement that all fault lay with junior ranks . Next door the F/Oís where saying same about captains . If true itís a good story ?
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 08:22
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Toruk Macto no, that's not how it went. All ranks, Cpt, F/O, S/O and FEO did it together.

When I did the initial CRM as a 2 day live in course it was run by Cpt Graham Beaumont.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 08:37
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I joined Ansett in 1975 and AN certainly was at the forefront of accident causation training. I can't be 100% certain due to the memory's not being able to pinpoint the first training sessions ... but I am pretty certain that they came in when I was still on the Fokker .. so sometime during the period 75-78 ?
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 12:03
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Smile

Originally Posted by john_tullamarine View Post
I joined Ansett in 1975 and AN certainly was at the forefront of accident causation training. I can't be 100% certain due to the memory's not being able to pinpoint the first training sessions ... but I am pretty certain that they came in when I was still on the Fokker .. so sometime during the period 75-78 ?
I believe JT that in Ansett it was the KHUFAC course begun in 1983, and sourced from KLM. TAA in parallel, ran a course tailored by UQ specialiasts from the United course begun in 1980 or thereabouts.
If memory serves me right, the instructors in both airlines were always Captains, although the courses were mixed 50/50 with four stripers and F/Os of various grades.

How do I know? Well I have a few degrees in HF, sat through the TAA version in a well known ME airline, and then later designed and implemented an HF course in that airline that is still running with very few changes. Oh and we used Captains and F/Os to facilitate the course. My degrees involved a fair bit of the history of CRM in airlines.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 18:16
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I believe JT that in Ansett it was the KHUFAC course begun in 1983, and sourced from KLM.
That's my recollection too. Managed/run initially by Keith Wallace.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 21:31
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Originally Posted by mustafagander View Post
Toruk Macto no, that's not how it went. All ranks, Cpt, F/O, S/O and FEO did it together.

When I did the initial CRM as a 2 day live in course it was run by Cpt Graham Beaumont.
The exercise done after a few beers in the evening was the highlight of that course for me! 😁
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 21:48
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Originally Posted by Toruk Macto View Post
Not sure if true but was told in very early days at Qantas the courses where segregated into rank ? Captains all in together in complete agreement that all fault lay with junior ranks . Next door the F/Oís where saying same about captains . If true itís a good story ?
Absolute rubbish!!
Right from the word go, and Qantas was a very very early adopter, CRM days were all ranks, and included cabin crew in the same groups.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 00:58
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Early days in QF there was some suspicion about the agenda and those with most to learn learnt the least.
A weekend in Coogee and cold beer on Qf.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 01:00
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The Ansett course was taken to the Perth and Sydney Bases in 1986 with a course in Melbourne for the Facilitators with Keith Wallace
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 02:54
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My first CRM was in 1986,Mt Eliza, TAA. 2 days live in, Capt's F/O's and F/E's all in together, and evenings full of beer. And as mentioned earlier those with the most to learn, learned the least Cheers!
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 10:33
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I believe JT that in Ansett it was the KHUFAC course begun in 1983

So much for my ageing memory cells. However, I thought the presentations well-intentioned and, overall, reasonably interesting. As I recall, Gerry Backhouse was tied up actively with them as well ?
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 07:56
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Thanks

My thanks to those PPruners who have responded.
There were some valuable clues amongst the replies that have helped me unearth a bit more.
Any other comments or information will be appreciated.
Seagull V
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Old 26th Dec 2018, 19:11
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TAA started the preparation of their course in 1983 by engaging UQ to design the whole thing.
Course was called ATM, Aircrew Team Management. I still have the manuals as I was one of the facilitators.
First courses were run in 1985.
With regard to QF, they were told by the authority that they needed to get on board. Two captains were on a course I was running with another pilot when we were informed the QF pilots had put in an objection to CASA, or whatever they called themselves then, asking that the course be shut down because it was encouraging FOs to questions the Captain’s decisions!
Maybe embellished but can certainly confirm the QF captains were not comfortable. Time moves on and QF now have a strong CRM course.
Have done many different CRMs since and found great variety in value, I think a lot of this is past its use by date.
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Old 26th Dec 2018, 21:19
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Originally Posted by ANCIENT View Post

Maybe embellished but can certainly confirm the QF captains were not comfortable. Time moves on and QF now have a strong CRM course.
Ancient,
Embellish would be an understatement, didn't happen. Every airline has a bunch of pilots who were slow to accept the idea, after all, they survived WWII as a single pilot in their Lancs etc.
All I am seeing here is the rather ridiculous TAA nonsense that "TAA knows it all" and Qantas knows nothing.
Tootle pip!!
In the day, so well developed that all QF's major interactions, particularly commercial, were with Ansett, a far more commonsense outfit.
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Old 27th Dec 2018, 03:06
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and QF now have a strong CRM course.
I bet they have. In the old days the briefing before take off and the top of descent briefing assumed both pilots could read a chart and any pertinent information therein. "Any questions?" was the usual briefing. if there was a pertinent question it was handled on the spot. Nowadays one eye is kept on the CVR microphone to ensure every long winded sentence is recorded for legal reasons - not flight safety reasons. Arse covering is vital just like the Public Service.

Since CRM/ TEM and other buzzwords crept into aviation lexicon, briefings have become markedly longer to the extent of being useless in terms of the receiver of the briefing trying to remember every word the other bloke is uttering. The theory being the more sentences that can be crammed into a briefing the less opportunities for the legal eagles or FOQA readers to swoop on one tiny inconsequential item to hang the crew out to dry in event of an inconsequential incident.
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